First, why do people never do a search before posting a new thread? Addison, you should know better! As others pointed out above, there's an existing thread on exactly the same topic that is less than a week old. Anybody remember how long we managed to keep the "2400 dreams" subnotebook thread alive?
Second, of course I would love a subnotebook from Apple. But...
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
market is taken care of by the 12 inch powerbook. anything smaller sacrifices on power and features. work on making the 12 inch slimmer and lighter....not a new product which is unneccessary and wont sell enough to justify developing
applenut summarizes the realistic likelyhood of a subnotebook: close to zero. We've talked about this many times before. Of course, it's always nice to dream. I must have written hundreds of posts arguing why Apple needs a sub-PowerBook. Realistically, Apple is simply going to make the 12-inch PowerBook thinner and lighter, but not smaller.
Sure, we all say that we are "in the market" for an Apple subnotebook. But seriously, how many of us would actually buy a sub-PowerBook if it were available? Now that I have a 12-inch PowerBook, I personally would not. (As sad as it is to admit that.) On a practical level, I sincerely appreciate the fact that I don't need a $300 port replicator to get any useful ports on my 12-inch PB, unlike with a Sony subnotebook. This is true even though my PB is 1.5 lbs heavier than a real subnotebook.
First, why do people never do a search before posting a new thread? Addison, you should know better! As others pointed out above, there's an existing thread on exactly the same topic that is less than a week old. Anybody remember how long we managed to keep the "2400 dreams" subnotebook thread alive?
Second, of course I would love a subnotebook from Apple. But...
Escher
Do you know I missed it, i don't know how I read these forums every day and I just missed it.
I still think there is a big enough market for one distinct model, it would have one huge advantage which would really sell it; BATTERY LIFE. With a small screen and an iPod sized HDD, the thing could run for hours.
Apple is already the king of the niche; they don't need or care to expand on that. Since Steve came on board their main objectives were to strengthen the Macintosh line and to release products that lots of people want.
Basically they think "what do a lot of people want?". A simple, good looking computer that is easy to set up to surf the web, read email, and let the kids do home work at a reasonable price. Huge market. Release iMac. Listen to digitized music and carry it around. Not just a couple of songs, but my whole library. Release iTunes and iPod for Macs and Windows. etc., etc. They can't afford to cater to the niche market any more.
Now think; how many people really want and will buy a tiny screen notebook?
How many people really want and are willing to invest in a PDA? What can Apple offer in a PDA form factor that would make LOTS of people want a PDA? Or a cell phone for that matter?
The answers to those questions vary and maybe Apple has some idea of what would make a small form-factor device have mass appeal. Until they nail it you wont see it. And until the technology is readily available to make it a reasonable price (it's not there yet), they have to hold off for now. Note I said reasonable, not 'cheap' or even 'inexpensive'. People are willing to pay for something that really appeals to them. Or else credit companies would go out of business.
market is taken care of by the 12 inch powerbook. anything smaller sacrifices on power and features. work on making the 12 inch slimmer and lighter....not a new product which is unneccessary and wont sell enough to justify developing
I had to post this just because of the humor factor.
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
People,
We need to look at this from a cultural(actually it should be biological) standpoint. Sony makes a lot of sub notebooks because in Japan people are on the average smaller than Americans. A sub 12" screen and smaller kb are simply not going to work here. I know some guys with some fat fingers that struggle with today's small stuff. I can only imagine the hilarity of watching them try to use one of these sub notebooks.
We need to look at this from a cultural(actually it should be biological) standpoint. Sony makes a lot of sub notebooks because in Japan people are on the average smaller than Americans. A sub 12" screen and smaller kb are simply not going to work here. I know some guys with some fat fingers that struggle with today's small stuff. I can only imagine the hilarity of watching them try to use one of these sub notebooks.
Yah, I want my next iBook to have a cupholder and a small ejecting tray that holds my burger.
I, being one of the uninitiate niche buyers, own a sony tr1a.
A wonderful machine perfectly suited to the traveller. I used this little wonder a a full computer for well over a year. It has logged several hundred thousand miles. Visited scores of places and has given me nary a problem. In fact it sits right here sleeping whilst I type on my 17" powerbook. The powerbook is a great machine, more of a desktop replacement with the added benefit of a few hours of battery life.
The little keyboard and trackpad in the tr1 work fine. A bit cramped at times but huge amounts of typing have gone into it. It is light. The screen small (10.6") yet it has a nifty little button that will magnify the screen for those times (rare) that you must view really small print. Add a little lo-res camera, a very versitile pcmca card and wifi capabilities and you have the makings of a great on-the-go computer. Before I bought my ipod all of my music was stored on this little computer's hard drive (30gb) As my music library grew I needed the ipod for the music. Itunes was the hook that brought me back to the mac.
It's main flaw- Windows. The poor little thing takes forever to boot. And is plagued with the other faults of Redmond.
When looking for that sub-notebook, weight is the prime issue. I don't want to have to lug around more weight than I possibly need. The TR1a is light sits in a backpack and takes the abuse. The second part of the equation is size. Given the size of the tray tables and cramped quarters of most airplanes (even in business class) A small or sub-notebook is a godsend.
Battery life- TR1a gets about 5 hours and with one extralight battery 10 hours. Great for all but the most grueling flights. NY to Sydney no, unless you have a power port.
In closing, the sub notebook isn't a niche market. If you add bluetooth (for keyboard and mouse) and an 23" external monitor you have a great machine
that goes with you everywhere.
Any company that is interested in such a product should factor in these points. Weight Size and battery life.
12" powerbook- nice size but thick, weight too heavy (sony is much lighter, battery life (don't know). Would have bought the mac over the TR1a but for the weight.
The last word- I wonder if apple has all of the old registration info from past customers. A great apple ad campaign could be:
BACK TO THE MAC
If you use windows now, bring in any OEM microsoft windows install disk and proof that you have ever owned an apple computer and we will give you _____
This offer only applies to past users of apple products (before os9 for example)
I'd love one of those...I need a subnotebook for proofing photos on location. Even a 12" PowerBook is overkill for my needs. If it handles even Photoshop Elements I'd be happy.
I, being one of the uninitiate niche buyers, own a sony tr1a.
A wonderful machine perfectly suited to the traveller. I used this little wonder a a full computer for well over a year. It has logged several hundred thousand miles. Visited scores of places and has given me nary a problem. In fact it sits right here sleeping whilst I type on my 17" powerbook. The powerbook is a great machine, more of a desktop replacement with the added benefit of a few hours of battery life.
The little keyboard and trackpad in the tr1 work fine. A bit cramped at times but huge amounts of typing have gone into it. It is light. The screen small (10.6") yet it has a nifty little button that will magnify the screen for those times (rare) that you must view really small print. Add a little lo-res camera, a very versitile pcmca card and wifi capabilities and you have the makings of a great on-the-go computer. Before I bought my ipod all of my music was stored on this little computer's hard drive (30gb) As my music library grew I needed the ipod for the music. Itunes was the hook that brought me back to the mac.
It's main flaw- Windows. The poor little thing takes forever to boot. And is plagued with the other faults of Redmond.
When looking for that sub-notebook, weight is the prime issue. I don't want to have to lug around more weight than I possibly need. The TR1a is light sits in a backpack and takes the abuse. The second part of the equation is size. Given the size of the tray tables and cramped quarters of most airplanes (even in business class) A small or sub-notebook is a godsend.
Battery life- TR1a gets about 5 hours and with one extralight battery 10 hours. Great for all but the most grueling flights. NY to Sydney no, unless you have a power port.
In closing, the sub notebook isn't a niche market. If you add bluetooth (for keyboard and mouse) and an 23" external monitor you have a great machine
that goes with you everywhere.
Any company that is interested in such a product should factor in these points. Weight Size and battery life.
12" powerbook- nice size but thick, weight too heavy (sony is much lighter, battery life (don't know). Would have bought the mac over the TR1a but for the weight.
The last word- I wonder if apple has all of the old registration info from past customers. A great apple ad campaign could be:
BACK TO THE MAC
If you use windows now, bring in any OEM microsoft windows install disk and proof that you have ever owned an apple computer and we will give you _____
This offer only applies to past users of apple products (before os9 for example)
Apple Mac - you know you want to!
I completely agree!! I'm glad to see some of us still support the sub-notebook market!!
These discussions are a waste of time. You can argue till you're blue in the face - some people want a sub-notebook, some don't. That ain't gonna change. The real point is that Windows users have an option, Mac users don't. That pisses me off. I'd buy one in an instant, in addition to my 15" pB and desktop.
These discussions are a waste of time. You can argue till you're blue in the face - some people want a sub-notebook, some don't. That ain't gonna change. The real point is that Windows users have an option, Mac users don't. That pisses me off. I'd buy one in an instant, in addition to my 15" pB and desktop.
This is true. Thats the advantage that Windows machines have. If you want a sub-notebook, you can get one. But I will never go back to Windows, so until Apple makes a subnotebook, I'll just have to stick with my PowerBook. I would definitely buy one instantly too. And I don't get what a lot of people argue about there not being enough market for a subnotebook, the addition of one to Apple's line of notebooks would give more variety. And I know that people would buy it.
people bought the cube as well. but not enough to make it sustainable.
Excellent point. A lot of people are still fanatical about the cube as well (it was a damn fine design). An Apple subnotebook would probably have similar success and enjoy similar fanaticism but in the end be a flop (not a bad product at all, but a sales flop).
If you don't think a product will sell well, you have to make more money per sale to justify selling the product at all. This is probably the main reason why PC subnotes cost as much as they do. Sure, miniaturization is expensive, but there are limits. An engineering marvel aimed at a small market is going to cost real money. There's no way around that.
If you don't think a product will sell well, you have to make more money per sale to justify selling the product at all. This is probably the main reason why PC subnotes cost as much as they do. Sure, miniaturization is expensive, but there are limits. An engineering marvel aimed at a small market is going to cost real money. There's no way around that.
Agreed, and though it makes perfect sense some of the people asking for it would slam Apple for pricing it accordingly. A few people here mention pricing it close to the 12" PowerBook so even if the thing was produced they wouldn't buy it.
It would be nice if the iBook was available with a 10.6" display. It wouldn't be quite as slim or light as a true sub-notebook, but it would be significantly smaller than the current 'books and priced to move.
It would be nice if the iBook was available with a 10.6" display. It wouldn't be quite as slim or light as a true sub-notebook, but it would be significantly smaller than the current 'books and priced to move.
You would still need to spend the money on R&D for smaller motherboard, enclosure and layout to ensure everything still fits. Whether you started with the iBook or Powerbook as a baseline you still have a good amount of work to develop it and that cost has to be amortized somewhere.
Alright, here's the 64k$ question... what do you want to use a subnotebook *FOR*?
Seriously. To what use would you put a subnotebook? And don't give me any "Everything I do on my bigger computer!" because that's just asinine. You simply can't.
What *precise* tasks do you want to do with your subnotebook?
Why is using a subnotebook for these tasks *better* than a larger laptop?
The problem with subnotebooks is that they're too big to fit in a pocket. And they're too small for useful work.
It's difficult to type anything on them. The small screen makes them unpleasant to use. In an Apple subnotebook case, you'd have to cram at least 800x600 inside a small screen...800x600 is barely enough screen estate to enjoy OS X. On such a small screen, everything would look tiny.
Cramming all the stuff we know and love in current Powerbook in a smaller enclosure would be very difficult. Either the subnotebook would be crippled in some way or would be super expensive.
subnotebooks is a market that has to be shared with PDAs. subnotebooks shouldn't even exist.
Comments
Second, of course I would love a subnotebook from Apple. But...
Originally posted by applenut
market is taken care of by the 12 inch powerbook. anything smaller sacrifices on power and features. work on making the 12 inch slimmer and lighter....not a new product which is unneccessary and wont sell enough to justify developing
applenut summarizes the realistic likelyhood of a subnotebook: close to zero. We've talked about this many times before. Of course, it's always nice to dream. I must have written hundreds of posts arguing why Apple needs a sub-PowerBook. Realistically, Apple is simply going to make the 12-inch PowerBook thinner and lighter, but not smaller.
Sure, we all say that we are "in the market" for an Apple subnotebook. But seriously, how many of us would actually buy a sub-PowerBook if it were available? Now that I have a 12-inch PowerBook, I personally would not. (As sad as it is to admit that.) On a practical level, I sincerely appreciate the fact that I don't need a $300 port replicator to get any useful ports on my 12-inch PB, unlike with a Sony subnotebook. This is true even though my PB is 1.5 lbs heavier than a real subnotebook.
Escher
Oh, and you can hold the modem on mine please.
Originally posted by Escher
First, why do people never do a search before posting a new thread? Addison, you should know better! As others pointed out above, there's an existing thread on exactly the same topic that is less than a week old.
Second, of course I would love a subnotebook from Apple. But...
Escher
Do you know I missed it, i don't know how I read these forums every day and I just missed it.
I still think there is a big enough market for one distinct model, it would have one huge advantage which would really sell it; BATTERY LIFE. With a small screen and an iPod sized HDD, the thing could run for hours.
Originally posted by Addison
With ...an iPod sized HDD
Waiting for applications to launch is going to be a real bitch.
Basically they think "what do a lot of people want?". A simple, good looking computer that is easy to set up to surf the web, read email, and let the kids do home work at a reasonable price. Huge market. Release iMac. Listen to digitized music and carry it around. Not just a couple of songs, but my whole library. Release iTunes and iPod for Macs and Windows. etc., etc. They can't afford to cater to the niche market any more.
Now think; how many people really want and will buy a tiny screen notebook?
How many people really want and are willing to invest in a PDA? What can Apple offer in a PDA form factor that would make LOTS of people want a PDA? Or a cell phone for that matter?
The answers to those questions vary and maybe Apple has some idea of what would make a small form-factor device have mass appeal. Until they nail it you wont see it. And until the technology is readily available to make it a reasonable price (it's not there yet), they have to hold off for now. Note I said reasonable, not 'cheap' or even 'inexpensive'. People are willing to pay for something that really appeals to them. Or else credit companies would go out of business.
Originally posted by applenut
market is taken care of by the 12 inch powerbook. anything smaller sacrifices on power and features. work on making the 12 inch slimmer and lighter....not a new product which is unneccessary and wont sell enough to justify developing
I had to post this just because of the humor factor.
Originally posted by hmurchison
People,
We need to look at this from a cultural(actually it should be biological) standpoint. Sony makes a lot of sub notebooks because in Japan people are on the average smaller than Americans. A sub 12" screen and smaller kb are simply not going to work here. I know some guys with some fat fingers that struggle with today's small stuff. I can only imagine the hilarity of watching them try to use one of these sub notebooks.
Originally posted by hmurchison
People,
We need to look at this from a cultural(actually it should be biological) standpoint. Sony makes a lot of sub notebooks because in Japan people are on the average smaller than Americans. A sub 12" screen and smaller kb are simply not going to work here. I know some guys with some fat fingers that struggle with today's small stuff. I can only imagine the hilarity of watching them try to use one of these sub notebooks.
Yah, I want my next iBook to have a cupholder and a small ejecting tray that holds my burger.
Hmm..can laptops have gun racks.
-M
A wonderful machine perfectly suited to the traveller. I used this little wonder a a full computer for well over a year. It has logged several hundred thousand miles. Visited scores of places and has given me nary a problem. In fact it sits right here sleeping whilst I type on my 17" powerbook. The powerbook is a great machine, more of a desktop replacement with the added benefit of a few hours of battery life.
The little keyboard and trackpad in the tr1 work fine. A bit cramped at times but huge amounts of typing have gone into it. It is light. The screen small (10.6") yet it has a nifty little button that will magnify the screen for those times (rare) that you must view really small print. Add a little lo-res camera, a very versitile pcmca card and wifi capabilities and you have the makings of a great on-the-go computer. Before I bought my ipod all of my music was stored on this little computer's hard drive (30gb) As my music library grew I needed the ipod for the music. Itunes was the hook that brought me back to the mac.
It's main flaw- Windows. The poor little thing takes forever to boot. And is plagued with the other faults of Redmond.
When looking for that sub-notebook, weight is the prime issue. I don't want to have to lug around more weight than I possibly need. The TR1a is light sits in a backpack and takes the abuse. The second part of the equation is size. Given the size of the tray tables and cramped quarters of most airplanes (even in business class) A small or sub-notebook is a godsend.
Battery life- TR1a gets about 5 hours and with one extralight battery 10 hours. Great for all but the most grueling flights. NY to Sydney no, unless you have a power port.
In closing, the sub notebook isn't a niche market. If you add bluetooth (for keyboard and mouse) and an 23" external monitor you have a great machine
that goes with you everywhere.
Any company that is interested in such a product should factor in these points. Weight Size and battery life.
12" powerbook- nice size but thick, weight too heavy (sony is much lighter, battery life (don't know). Would have bought the mac over the TR1a but for the weight.
The last word- I wonder if apple has all of the old registration info from past customers. A great apple ad campaign could be:
BACK TO THE MAC
If you use windows now, bring in any OEM microsoft windows install disk and proof that you have ever owned an apple computer and we will give you _____
This offer only applies to past users of apple products (before os9 for example)
Apple Mac - you know you want to!
I'd love one of those...I need a subnotebook for proofing photos on location. Even a 12" PowerBook is overkill for my needs. If it handles even Photoshop Elements I'd be happy.
A Mac version would be welcomed.
Originally posted by TednDi
I, being one of the uninitiate niche buyers, own a sony tr1a.
A wonderful machine perfectly suited to the traveller. I used this little wonder a a full computer for well over a year. It has logged several hundred thousand miles. Visited scores of places and has given me nary a problem. In fact it sits right here sleeping whilst I type on my 17" powerbook. The powerbook is a great machine, more of a desktop replacement with the added benefit of a few hours of battery life.
The little keyboard and trackpad in the tr1 work fine. A bit cramped at times but huge amounts of typing have gone into it. It is light. The screen small (10.6") yet it has a nifty little button that will magnify the screen for those times (rare) that you must view really small print. Add a little lo-res camera, a very versitile pcmca card and wifi capabilities and you have the makings of a great on-the-go computer. Before I bought my ipod all of my music was stored on this little computer's hard drive (30gb) As my music library grew I needed the ipod for the music. Itunes was the hook that brought me back to the mac.
It's main flaw- Windows. The poor little thing takes forever to boot. And is plagued with the other faults of Redmond.
When looking for that sub-notebook, weight is the prime issue. I don't want to have to lug around more weight than I possibly need. The TR1a is light sits in a backpack and takes the abuse. The second part of the equation is size. Given the size of the tray tables and cramped quarters of most airplanes (even in business class) A small or sub-notebook is a godsend.
Battery life- TR1a gets about 5 hours and with one extralight battery 10 hours. Great for all but the most grueling flights. NY to Sydney no, unless you have a power port.
In closing, the sub notebook isn't a niche market. If you add bluetooth (for keyboard and mouse) and an 23" external monitor you have a great machine
that goes with you everywhere.
Any company that is interested in such a product should factor in these points. Weight Size and battery life.
12" powerbook- nice size but thick, weight too heavy (sony is much lighter, battery life (don't know). Would have bought the mac over the TR1a but for the weight.
The last word- I wonder if apple has all of the old registration info from past customers. A great apple ad campaign could be:
BACK TO THE MAC
If you use windows now, bring in any OEM microsoft windows install disk and proof that you have ever owned an apple computer and we will give you _____
This offer only applies to past users of apple products (before os9 for example)
Apple Mac - you know you want to!
I completely agree!! I'm glad to see some of us still support the sub-notebook market!!
Originally posted by jasonfj
These discussions are a waste of time. You can argue till you're blue in the face - some people want a sub-notebook, some don't. That ain't gonna change. The real point is that Windows users have an option, Mac users don't. That pisses me off. I'd buy one in an instant, in addition to my 15" pB and desktop.
This is true. Thats the advantage that Windows machines have. If you want a sub-notebook, you can get one. But I will never go back to Windows, so until Apple makes a subnotebook, I'll just have to stick with my PowerBook. I would definitely buy one instantly too. And I don't get what a lot of people argue about there not being enough market for a subnotebook, the addition of one to Apple's line of notebooks would give more variety. And I know that people would buy it.
Originally posted by s_sarinana
the addition of one to Apple's line of notebooks would give more variety. And I know that people would buy it.
people bought the cube as well. but not enough to make it sustainable.
Originally posted by applenut
people bought the cube as well. but not enough to make it sustainable.
Excellent point. A lot of people are still fanatical about the cube as well (it was a damn fine design). An Apple subnotebook would probably have similar success and enjoy similar fanaticism but in the end be a flop (not a bad product at all, but a sales flop).
Originally posted by Amorph
If you don't think a product will sell well, you have to make more money per sale to justify selling the product at all. This is probably the main reason why PC subnotes cost as much as they do. Sure, miniaturization is expensive, but there are limits. An engineering marvel aimed at a small market is going to cost real money. There's no way around that.
Agreed, and though it makes perfect sense some of the people asking for it would slam Apple for pricing it accordingly. A few people here mention pricing it close to the 12" PowerBook so even if the thing was produced they wouldn't buy it.
Originally posted by Michael Wilkie
It would be nice if the iBook was available with a 10.6" display. It wouldn't be quite as slim or light as a true sub-notebook, but it would be significantly smaller than the current 'books and priced to move.
You would still need to spend the money on R&D for smaller motherboard, enclosure and layout to ensure everything still fits. Whether you started with the iBook or Powerbook as a baseline you still have a good amount of work to develop it and that cost has to be amortized somewhere.
Seriously. To what use would you put a subnotebook? And don't give me any "Everything I do on my bigger computer!" because that's just asinine. You simply can't.
What *precise* tasks do you want to do with your subnotebook?
Why is using a subnotebook for these tasks *better* than a larger laptop?
It's difficult to type anything on them. The small screen makes them unpleasant to use. In an Apple subnotebook case, you'd have to cram at least 800x600 inside a small screen...800x600 is barely enough screen estate to enjoy OS X. On such a small screen, everything would look tiny.
Cramming all the stuff we know and love in current Powerbook in a smaller enclosure would be very difficult. Either the subnotebook would be crippled in some way or would be super expensive.
subnotebooks is a market that has to be shared with PDAs. subnotebooks shouldn't even exist.