Small TVs are way under $100 at Costco. Why is adding a TV tuner to your Mac so expensive?
Those TVs use cheap analog circuitry and require little if any novel engineering. Conversion of analog to digital or vice versa raises costs significantly.
I don't want the tuner in the screen... I'd just like apple to sell a "box" that turns the monitor into a TV. 500 bucks... sounds good to me.
This is exactly why I'll be buying the HP L2335. It can be had for $1500 and uses the same 23" panel as the Apple. Yes, the case is not as pretty looking.. but its 500 bucks cheaper (thats 25%!), has component, composite and S-video in's and is VESA compatible right out of the box. No added fee for an adapter. No added 200, 300, 500 dollar box to add TV inputs. It also supports 90 degree rotation of the screen.. right out of the box. Now I'm just as much a sucker for great design as the next guy... but I'm not THAT much of a sucker.
That's because you have not a clue as to how people use PowerBooks.
Yeah, yeah, the 'brain on - brain off' thing. At least when Jobs sounds smug and arrogant, you know he has the brains and money to back it up.
A tuner on a chip should be relatively inexpensive by now. The 'Books have a high quality screen and built-in antennae for Airport. Why not add tv capability to further push the Powerbook ahead of the iBook?
P.S. there's no law that says you can't use a Powerbook for entertainment purposes. Particularly when you're taking public transit or waiting in an airport.
Particularly when you're taking public transit or waiting in an airport.
A TV without a REAL antenna is just a 'white noise' player and a real antenna for TV reception can't be built in to the case otherwise TV manufactures would have been doing it years ago.
Who wants a laptop with a V shaped silver antenna sticking out of it? And even if you do the reception still wouldn't be close to good unless your pretty darn close to the broadcast antenna farm in your area.
yep, so true. I've been trying so many rigs to get my OTA HDTV to work-- multidimentional antennas that fit on my stat dish, powered antennas... what worked? The big ass standard antenna down at radio shack for $50.
No matter how much technology you throw into it, waveforms are not going to change, and you will still have to use the oldschool ways of receiving them.
And with HD out now, who gives a rip about an SD tuner on your computer. HD all the way, baby!
yep, so true. I've been trying so many rigs to get my OTA HDTV to work-- multidimentional antennas that fit on my stat dish, powered antennas... what worked? The big ass standard antenna down at radio shack for $50.
No matter how much technology you throw into it, waveforms are not going to change, and you will still have to use the oldschool ways of receiving them.
And with HD out now, who gives a rip about an SD tuner on your computer. HD all the way, baby!
Absolutely. Adding an analog TV tuner to a DVD player or PowerBook makes about as much sense as adding a floppy drive. Analog broadcasts are scheduled to end before a significant fraction of the installed base retires its current machines. At $300-$600, HDTV tuners are more expensive than many Wintel computers. Not only are they expensive, they are also fairly bulky. That's why flat-panel HDTV makers put the tuner in a separate "media center" rather than integrating it into the flat panel. It would be a substantial victory for Apple to develop a HDTV-integrated PowerBook whose weight in only double that of a PowerBook without the tuner. People may wish for a PowerBook with an integrated TV tuner. However, wishing does not make it so.
Analog broadcasts are scheduled to end before a significant fraction of the installed base retires its current machines. At $300-$600, HDTV tuners are more expensive than many Wintel computers.
Analog TV broadcasts aren't going to disappear any time soon no matter what the 'official' timelime says. The HDTV transition has never been even close to on schedule. Every deadline has been missed by at least a few years. But you're right, it wouldn't be good to integrate a tuner into the powerbooks. Portable TVs have been available for a few decades now and are simply not something that has wide consumer appeal.
HDTV tuners are available for less than $300. I bought mine new over a year ago for $199. Without the digital to analog circuitry and power transformer, the thing is comprised of circuit boards totalling about the size of a pack of cigarettes. However, almost all north american stations underestimated the wattage required to reach their viewing areas. Most have been reapplying for higher wattage liscenses. Even then, powerbooks aren't large enough to hold a suitably sized antenna.
Sheesh. Card carrying member of the Skeptic's Militia?
No really, I took apart my tuner after accidently ripping a component video plug off the back. (Over priced and overly tight interconnects.)
There really wasn't much to the internals especially if you account for all the DA converter circuitry for various video outputs. RGB component of 480p/720p/1080i, H-type output of audio and 480i, composite 480i output, Svideo 480i output, component 480i output, component 480p output, component 720p output, and component 1080i output. Not to mention conversion of any of those scan rates to any of the others.
All of that would be eliminated if only doing digital output... and the undersized component case was mostly empty space anyway. Rest assured, bare-bones HDTV tuners occupy a tiny amount of space.
This is exactly why I'll be buying the HP L2335. It can be had for $1500 and uses the same 23" panel as the Apple. Yes, the case is not as pretty looking.. but its 500 bucks cheaper (thats 25%!), has component, composite and S-video in's and is VESA compatible right out of the box. No added fee for an adapter. No added 200, 300, 500 dollar box to add TV inputs. It also supports 90 degree rotation of the screen.. right out of the box. Now I'm just as much a sucker for great design as the next guy... but I'm not THAT much of a sucker.
Outstanding. Thanks for the info; I've been meaning to email them and kept forgetting. According to the link I gave earlier, products made before the broadcast flag takes effect aren't required to be updated and can be resold legally, so this may be one of the rare technology products that will be more valuable in the future. Hmm, I wonder if there's a business opportunity to stock up on a few hundred and sell them next year...
You plug in a regular VHF/UHF antenna feed. I'm in an apartment and just have cheap rabbit ears from Radio Shack so I was worried about reception, but no problems so far. I'll have a better idea when I play with it more tonight, and I'll also see how well it interacts with my EyeTV USB which I still need for cable channels.
Following up to myself in case anyone's interested: With the original antenna several channels had spotty reception, so I got a Terk antenna specifically designed for HDTV. I now get near-perfect reception for all 7 networks (still occasional hiccups with NBC). The picture quality is amazing for HD broadcasts, easily better than DVD. The EyeTV 500 gets along fairly well with the USB model; they can function independently, even both showing live broadcasts. Occasionally the EyeTV app gets confused and won't switch channels, but quitting and relaunching takes care of it.
Performance is very good on my dual 1.8 G5. Watching a 1080i broadcast full screen takes about 80% CPU usage, so a single 1.6 would probably just barely handle it. I don't know how well it's optimized for multiple processors, so a dual G4 may or may not work well.
Well, Terk stuff isn't well regarded by most of the guys in TV circles (I'm talking about the guys who install antenna, or work at TV stations...) I think some of the Terk outdoor antenna are rebranded Winegards, so those would be fine. For indoor antenna, the UHF-only Silver Sensor is pretty good.
Following up to myself in case anyone's interested: With the original antenna several channels had spotty reception, so I got a Terk antenna specifically designed for HDTV. I now get near-perfect reception for all 7 networks (still occasional hiccups with NBC). The picture quality is amazing for HD broadcasts, easily better than DVD. The EyeTV 500 gets along fairly well with the USB model; they can function independently, even both showing live broadcasts. Occasionally the EyeTV app gets confused and won't switch channels, but quitting and relaunching takes care of it.
Performance is very good on my dual 1.8 G5. Watching a 1080i broadcast full screen takes about 80% CPU usage, so a single 1.6 would probably just barely handle it. I don't know how well it's optimized for multiple processors, so a dual G4 may or may not work well.
There is no such thing as an antenna specifically designed for HDTV. There are, however, antenna designed specifically to empty your wallet. HDTV is broadcast over a subset of the same channels used for analog broadcasts. Some DT channels are VHF, but most are UHF. That is why an ordinary UHF antenna tends to do such a good job receiving HDTV. Antenna are designed to receive specific frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum. Whether the content is digital or analog is of little consequence.
Comments
TV's been around a gazillion years. Should a TV tuner on a chip be relatively inexpensive by now?
I've never understood why a Powerbook doesn't have a TV tuner built-in.
And I will never understand why people will buy a portable DVD player without a TV tuner built in.
Small TVs are way under $100 at Costco. Why is adding a TV tuner to your Mac so expensive?
Originally posted by Frank777
Small TVs are way under $100 at Costco. Why is adding a TV tuner to your Mac so expensive?
Those TVs use cheap analog circuitry and require little if any novel engineering. Conversion of analog to digital or vice versa raises costs significantly.
Originally posted by Frank777
....
I've never understood why a Powerbook doesn't have a TV tuner built-in.
That's because you have not a clue as to how people use PowerBooks.
Originally posted by Frank777
And I will never understand why people will buy a portable DVD player without a TV tuner built in.
One reason might be that they don't exist.
Originally posted by Frank777
Small TVs are way under $100 at Costco. Why is adding a TV tuner to your Mac so expensive?
If anyone made portable DVD players with built-in TV tuners, would you actually expect to find one at Costco?
Originally posted by willcurrie
I don't want the tuner in the screen... I'd just like apple to sell a "box" that turns the monitor into a TV. 500 bucks... sounds good to me.
This is exactly why I'll be buying the HP L2335. It can be had for $1500 and uses the same 23" panel as the Apple. Yes, the case is not as pretty looking.. but its 500 bucks cheaper (thats 25%!), has component, composite and S-video in's and is VESA compatible right out of the box. No added fee for an adapter. No added 200, 300, 500 dollar box to add TV inputs. It also supports 90 degree rotation of the screen.. right out of the box. Now I'm just as much a sucker for great design as the next guy... but I'm not THAT much of a sucker.
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=757963&page=1
Originally posted by Mr. Me
That's because you have not a clue as to how people use PowerBooks.
Yeah, yeah, the 'brain on - brain off' thing. At least when Jobs sounds smug and arrogant, you know he has the brains and money to back it up.
A tuner on a chip should be relatively inexpensive by now. The 'Books have a high quality screen and built-in antennae for Airport. Why not add tv capability to further push the Powerbook ahead of the iBook?
P.S. there's no law that says you can't use a Powerbook for entertainment purposes. Particularly when you're taking public transit or waiting in an airport.
Originally posted by Frank777
Particularly when you're taking public transit or waiting in an airport.
A TV without a REAL antenna is just a 'white noise' player and a real antenna for TV reception can't be built in to the case otherwise TV manufactures would have been doing it years ago.
Who wants a laptop with a V shaped silver antenna sticking out of it? And even if you do the reception still wouldn't be close to good unless your pretty darn close to the broadcast antenna farm in your area.
Dave
No matter how much technology you throw into it, waveforms are not going to change, and you will still have to use the oldschool ways of receiving them.
And with HD out now, who gives a rip about an SD tuner on your computer. HD all the way, baby!
Originally posted by feverishaaron
yep, so true. I've been trying so many rigs to get my OTA HDTV to work-- multidimentional antennas that fit on my stat dish, powered antennas... what worked? The big ass standard antenna down at radio shack for $50.
No matter how much technology you throw into it, waveforms are not going to change, and you will still have to use the oldschool ways of receiving them.
And with HD out now, who gives a rip about an SD tuner on your computer. HD all the way, baby!
Absolutely. Adding an analog TV tuner to a DVD player or PowerBook makes about as much sense as adding a floppy drive. Analog broadcasts are scheduled to end before a significant fraction of the installed base retires its current machines. At $300-$600, HDTV tuners are more expensive than many Wintel computers. Not only are they expensive, they are also fairly bulky. That's why flat-panel HDTV makers put the tuner in a separate "media center" rather than integrating it into the flat panel. It would be a substantial victory for Apple to develop a HDTV-integrated PowerBook whose weight in only double that of a PowerBook without the tuner. People may wish for a PowerBook with an integrated TV tuner. However, wishing does not make it so.
Originally posted by Mr. Me
Analog broadcasts are scheduled to end before a significant fraction of the installed base retires its current machines. At $300-$600, HDTV tuners are more expensive than many Wintel computers.
Analog TV broadcasts aren't going to disappear any time soon no matter what the 'official' timelime says. The HDTV transition has never been even close to on schedule. Every deadline has been missed by at least a few years. But you're right, it wouldn't be good to integrate a tuner into the powerbooks. Portable TVs have been available for a few decades now and are simply not something that has wide consumer appeal.
HDTV tuners are available for less than $300. I bought mine new over a year ago for $199. Without the digital to analog circuitry and power transformer, the thing is comprised of circuit boards totalling about the size of a pack of cigarettes. However, almost all north american stations underestimated the wattage required to reach their viewing areas. Most have been reapplying for higher wattage liscenses. Even then, powerbooks aren't large enough to hold a suitably sized antenna.
comprised of
REAAARrghGGHHgHHH1!!!111
No really, I took apart my tuner after accidently ripping a component video plug off the back. (Over priced and overly tight interconnects.)
There really wasn't much to the internals especially if you account for all the DA converter circuitry for various video outputs. RGB component of 480p/720p/1080i, H-type output of audio and 480i, composite 480i output, Svideo 480i output, component 480i output, component 480p output, component 720p output, and component 1080i output. Not to mention conversion of any of those scan rates to any of the others.
All of that would be eliminated if only doing digital output... and the undersized component case was mostly empty space anyway. Rest assured, bare-bones HDTV tuners occupy a tiny amount of space.
Originally posted by utsava
This is exactly why I'll be buying the HP L2335. It can be had for $1500 and uses the same 23" panel as the Apple. Yes, the case is not as pretty looking.. but its 500 bucks cheaper (thats 25%!), has component, composite and S-video in's and is VESA compatible right out of the box. No added fee for an adapter. No added 200, 300, 500 dollar box to add TV inputs. It also supports 90 degree rotation of the screen.. right out of the box. Now I'm just as much a sucker for great design as the next guy... but I'm not THAT much of a sucker.
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=757963&page=1
Thanks for the heads up
Originally posted by edgar_is_good
I emailed el gato and here's what they said
Outstanding. Thanks for the info; I've been meaning to email them and kept forgetting. According to the link I gave earlier, products made before the broadcast flag takes effect aren't required to be updated and can be resold legally, so this may be one of the rare technology products that will be more valuable in the future. Hmm, I wonder if there's a business opportunity to stock up on a few hundred and sell them next year...
Originally posted by 3.1416
You plug in a regular VHF/UHF antenna feed. I'm in an apartment and just have cheap rabbit ears from Radio Shack so I was worried about reception, but no problems so far. I'll have a better idea when I play with it more tonight, and I'll also see how well it interacts with my EyeTV USB which I still need for cable channels.
Following up to myself in case anyone's interested: With the original antenna several channels had spotty reception, so I got a Terk antenna specifically designed for HDTV. I now get near-perfect reception for all 7 networks (still occasional hiccups with NBC). The picture quality is amazing for HD broadcasts, easily better than DVD. The EyeTV 500 gets along fairly well with the USB model; they can function independently, even both showing live broadcasts. Occasionally the EyeTV app gets confused and won't switch channels, but quitting and relaunching takes care of it.
Performance is very good on my dual 1.8 G5. Watching a 1080i broadcast full screen takes about 80% CPU usage, so a single 1.6 would probably just barely handle it. I don't know how well it's optimized for multiple processors, so a dual G4 may or may not work well.
Originally posted by 3.1416
Following up to myself in case anyone's interested: With the original antenna several channels had spotty reception, so I got a Terk antenna specifically designed for HDTV. I now get near-perfect reception for all 7 networks (still occasional hiccups with NBC). The picture quality is amazing for HD broadcasts, easily better than DVD. The EyeTV 500 gets along fairly well with the USB model; they can function independently, even both showing live broadcasts. Occasionally the EyeTV app gets confused and won't switch channels, but quitting and relaunching takes care of it.
Performance is very good on my dual 1.8 G5. Watching a 1080i broadcast full screen takes about 80% CPU usage, so a single 1.6 would probably just barely handle it. I don't know how well it's optimized for multiple processors, so a dual G4 may or may not work well.
There is no such thing as an antenna specifically designed for HDTV. There are, however, antenna designed specifically to empty your wallet. HDTV is broadcast over a subset of the same channels used for analog broadcasts. Some DT channels are VHF, but most are UHF. That is why an ordinary UHF antenna tends to do such a good job receiving HDTV. Antenna are designed to receive specific frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum. Whether the content is digital or analog is of little consequence.
Well, Terk stuff isn't well regarded by most of the guys in TV circles (I'm talking about the guys who install antenna, or work at TV stations...)
Hmm, that might have been good to know. Although it seems to be working fine so far, and it's much better than my old one.
One of the best resources on the net for HDTV info is over at the AVS Forums. In particular, take a look in their HDTV Hardware Forum