Blu-Ray Technology on the PowerMac?
So, I've been looking into the looming format war that seems to be upon us with the introduction of high-definition dvd formats. We have two main formats, one proposed by Toshiba and NEC (HD-DVD)--which has been ratified as the read-only format successor to DVD by the DVD Forum--and the other format (Blu-Ray) which has been proposed by Hitachi, Ltd., LG Electronics Inc., Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd., Mitsubishi Electric Corporation, Pioneer Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd., Sharp Corporation, Sony Corporation, TDK Corporation, and Thomson Multimedia. So my questions are, with whom will Apple be siding with? Can we expect the Blu-Ray technology on PowerMac's in 2005?
These events pose numerous and other interesting questions. So far, I'm liking the Blu-Ray Technology. You can find all the info you need on it here:
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/
It looks like the technology will be backward compatible with people's existing DVD library, incorporate the latest H.264(MPEG4) codec, and hold up to 25 GB on a single-layered disk and 50 GB on a dual-layered disk. Compared to the HD-DVD format which will only hold 15 GB on a single-layered disk and 30GB on a dual-layered disk. And, given the fact that Philips has developed an all-in-one optical pickup unit for CDs, DVDs and Blu-ray Discs that will fit into a standard half-height drive:
http://www.physicsweb.org/press/7039
I'm wondering when Apple will incorporate such a technology into future PowerMacs? Also, it looks like Sony will also be using the BD format (Blu-Ray Disk) in their next generation PS2 (PSX) and PS3 game consoles.
http://www.blu-ray.com/
So the technology is right upon us, when and if do you guys think we can expect it in our handy PowerMacs?
-Maz
These events pose numerous and other interesting questions. So far, I'm liking the Blu-Ray Technology. You can find all the info you need on it here:
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/
It looks like the technology will be backward compatible with people's existing DVD library, incorporate the latest H.264(MPEG4) codec, and hold up to 25 GB on a single-layered disk and 50 GB on a dual-layered disk. Compared to the HD-DVD format which will only hold 15 GB on a single-layered disk and 30GB on a dual-layered disk. And, given the fact that Philips has developed an all-in-one optical pickup unit for CDs, DVDs and Blu-ray Discs that will fit into a standard half-height drive:
http://www.physicsweb.org/press/7039
I'm wondering when Apple will incorporate such a technology into future PowerMacs? Also, it looks like Sony will also be using the BD format (Blu-Ray Disk) in their next generation PS2 (PSX) and PS3 game consoles.
http://www.blu-ray.com/
So the technology is right upon us, when and if do you guys think we can expect it in our handy PowerMacs?
-Maz
Comments
Over 2 hours of high-definition television (HDTV) on a 27GB disc.
About 13 hours of standard-definition television (SDTV) on a 27GB disc.
I was wondering how many hours of Hi-def video can fit when compressed
with the H.264/AVC FRExt codec?
Originally posted by mello
How much video can you record on a Blu-ray Disc?
Over 2 hours of high-definition television (HDTV) on a 27GB disc.
About 13 hours of standard-definition television (SDTV) on a 27GB disc.
I was wondering how many hours of Hi-def video can fit when compressed
with the H.264/AVC FRExt codec?
Let's base it off of their proposed bitrates
8Mbps = 480 megabits per minute or 28,800 megabits per hour.
480/28,880 /8= 60 megabyes per min/3600 megabytes per hour
So 3.6 Gigabytes per hour allows us to neatly divide by our total space. If Blu Ray is 27GB then we get 7.5 hrs of AVC video at 8Mbps. 12Mpbs is 90 megabytes a minute or 5.4 gigabytes per hour for 5 hrs of AVC video at 12 megabits per second.
As you can see it is in Sony's best interest to support a high efficiency codec. Honestly I'm quite shocked that Sony has focused on AVC. Many thought they would go to VC-9(the open version of WM9 from Microsloth). This is big because keep in mind these rates are for HD if we used equal DVD quality the numbers would likely double.
Alas this means I'll probably have to buy two expensive players. HD-DVD and Blu Ray because there will not be a winner for years. I'm sure Apple will support both technologies in software.
Let me try to simplify this a little. (Sorry if I oversimplify.)
Blu-ray is the superior technology specifications-wise. It has higher storage capacity and more support from the big tech companies.
HD-DVD devices are cheaper to produce than Blu-ray and it is more backward compatible to DVDs due to the fact that it shares more technology with current DVDs than Blu-ray does. It also uses the Microsoft VC-9 codec for audio which probably means that money goes to Microsoft for every disk sold. HD-DVD also has a familiar brand name that works well with those uninformed consumers.
But the most important issue is: Which format will the studios support? The format that gets more movies will be the winner. We already know that the Sony-owned studios will go Blu-ray. But that's only one studio of the many.
Originally posted by vinney57
You have over-simplified. HD-DVD players also have to support AVC by definition.
They both support AVC. Perhaps you wanted me to list all the things that the two formats have in common?
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/
And the main point is still that the studios will be the main deciding factor of which format survives. In other words, it's more politics than technology that decides the survivor. Perhaps I should've taken out the rest of the info. Sorry for not simplifying enough.
In any case, I sure hope Blu-Ray becomes the victor so that we can have some HD-DVD toys to play with! I know Apple is usually on the cutting edge as far as their hardware goes, so does anyone think they might adopt the format from one or the other and incorporate the necessary hardware into a PowerMac before there is a clear cut format winner? Fourth quarter of 2005 perhaps?
Blu Ray was not chosen by the DVD Forum so it could never be officially called HD-DVD. Blu Ray superiority for most people = storage capacity. However until just recently Blu Ray was looking to only record in MPEG2 negating any advantage of the increased storage capacity.
Hollywood doesn't care if HP and Dell support Blu Ray because Hollywood only cares about the profits that the format can create for movies. HP and Dell are interested in offering Blu Ray for computer applications hence their desire for more storage.
If Blu Ray adds the AVC codec Apple will easily be able to support both but there are more unanswered questions than answered.
To me it's looking like those that want a full HD selection will have to shell out for two players. With that in mind I sincerely hope the Plastation 3 plays back Blu Ray Movies very well because that may be my only hope getting Blu Ray cheaply.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Let's base it off of their proposed bitrates
8Mbps = 480 megabits per minute or 28,800 megabits per hour.
480/28,880 /8= 60 megabyes per min/3600 megabytes per hour
So 3.6 Gigabytes per hour allows us to neatly divide by our total space. If Blu Ray is 27GB then we get 7.5 hrs of AVC video at 8Mbps. 12Mpbs is 90 megabytes a minute or 5.4 gigabytes per hour for 5 hrs of AVC video at 12 megabits per second.
As you can see it is in Sony's best interest to support a high efficiency codec. Honestly I'm quite shocked that Sony has focused on AVC. Many thought they would go to VC-9(the open version of WM9 from Microsloth). This is big because keep in mind these rates are for HD if we used equal DVD quality the numbers would likely double.
Alas this means I'll probably have to buy two expensive players. HD-DVD and Blu Ray because there will not be a winner for years. I'm sure Apple will support both technologies in software.
I remembered reading that movie studios wanted the cheapest format in
order to make as much green as possible but with the mpeg4 codec
you could stuff so much on a single dual-layer BluRay disc! You could
have the entire Star Wars trilogy on a single disc with all the extras!
Although we won't know if VC-9 or AVC has made it until someone spills the beans. I'm hoping for AVC. Give me that and I'll purchase Blu Ray.
As far as any advantages of Blu-Ray over HD-DVD, I think this article is helpful:
http://dvd.ign.com/articles/524/524681p1.html
Also, good read on the arstechnica forum about the politics of the formats post by Ra. Also, this kind of information kind of coincides with my questioning of the DVD Forum decision in my earlier post. The forum had to have known that the MPEG-2 format Blu-Ray was intending to use wasn't set in stone, nor was the fact that the Blu-Ray camp would strictly being using cartridges for their media. From some of the information from the arstechnica forum, it looks as though Intel had a lot to do with changing the vote structure of the forum which should also raise a red flag. That's all we need is Microsoft and Intel dictating behind the scenes as to what the next high definition dvd standard should be. But, so goes politics. There's always two sides to the same story.
But here's to hoping for Blu-Ray on a PowerMac soon. A point also worth noting is that the Blu-Ray format looks to be supporting encryption with a AES 128-bit key that changes every six kilobytes, with technologies to prevent bit-by-bit copying and bus encryption for Blu-ray-based ROM drives while the HD-DVD format has yet to have any. Hopefully an added benefit the studios will see and be sold on.
Forgive me hmurchison, I used the term HD-DVD at the end of my last post loosely, I meant HD-DVD in the broad term of high definition dvd's. I'll try to be more careful.
Oh no sweat man I wasn't trying to correct you moreso than just to point out the oddity that only the DVD Forum can officially call their approved product HD-DVD. Hell if people want to call Blu Ray HD-DVD it's fine with me
But here's to hoping for Blu-Ray on a PowerMac soon. A point also worth noting is that the Blu-Ray format looks to be supporting encryption with a AES 128-bit key that changes every six kilobytes, with technologies to prevent bit-by-bit copying and bus encryption for Blu-ray-based ROM drives while the HD-DVD format has yet to have any. Hopefully an added benefit the studios will see and be sold on.
Apple undoubtedly has their eye on multiple technologies. We'll know soon enough where they are headed.
I think that day is coming soon
No officially Blu Ray but it's the same Tech
Yes Blu Ray should be nigh unbreakable. I started a thread about Apple adding more DRM support to OSX because in the future operating systems may need to be able to handle multiple types of DRM without error as they pump digital data throughout.
HD-DVD is supposed to be thinking about using AACS DRM
Advanced Access Content System License Administrator (AACS LA) has at its core a digital rights management (DRM) specification called "broadcast encryption" which member companies propose to protect high-definition (HD) content on next-generation DVD players and to enable new online business models. The AACS LA is a cross-industry effort initiated by IBM, Intel Corporation, Microsoft, Matsushita Electric (Panasonic), Sony, Toshiba, The Walt Disney Company, and Warner Bros.
Originally posted by onlooker
If they have the encryption that tight there better be a second DVD in every DVD package for backup, because that is total BS, and backups are totally legal, and the movie industries have to accommodate us in some way shape or form. it's the law.
Right.... Just like Sony and Microsoft must include a backup ready CD/DVD with every PS2 and Xbox game sold.
And also why 321 Studios shut down after a number of law suits regarding their DVD backup software (link) :
Despite 321 Studios? best efforts to remain in business, injunctions entered against 321 Studios by three US Federal courts earlier this year has resulted in 321 Studios no longer being able to continue operating the business.
Speaking of oddities, if you go to www.hd-dvd.com, guess what site comes up? You guessed it, www.blu-ray.com. Weird, but maybe a good omen.
Link Here!
This MacCentral article called: SIGGRAPH: AfterBurner offers 23GB blue laser burner
For me the equation is simple. PICTURE QUALITY. PICTURE QUALITY. PICTURE QUALITY. I don't really care how much content you can fit on any of these formats if compression artifacts intrude into the picture.
Originally posted by Northgate
What I don't see anybody here discussing is PICTURE QUALITY. We seem to get lost in the details of the technology and which codec can cram the most information into the given space...but at what expense to quality.
For me the equation is simple. PICTURE QUALITY. PICTURE QUALITY. PICTURE QUALITY. I don't really care how much content you can fit on any of these formats if compression artifacts intrude into the picture.
MPEG2 @ 24Mbps will likely have the best picture quality but I see AVC being close and improving greatly as encoder quality improves. When Apple showed AVC trailers at NAB I heard no complaints about the quality. I think right now the "Holy Grail" of HDTV will be 1080p 24 or 1080p 60 on a monitor that can display a 1:1 pixel map. Only a high high end Mitsubishi monitor can do that now.