Because the choir keeps veering off into this bizarre idea that 'a comparable machine' can be had for a lot less. The machine is more than the hardware. You *know* this... and yet you, and a lot of people in here, are going to keep making ridiculous statements about 'comparable' machines. Yeah, you *bet* I can go get comparable *hardware* for less. No dispute there. But the very advantages that make you a Mac user are the ones you're paying for, and you'd stop and think about it for a minute, you'd realize how silly the 'comparable machine for less' stance really is.
Ah, but that one phrase is the crux of your argument, isn't it?
If one could *not* find comparable *hardware* for less, then you wouldn't be even attempting the position. But the hardware *can* be had for less... it's just the most important bits that would be missing. There's where the argument breaks down. Price only matters in a relative manner... $1300 would be dirt cheap 10 years ago, but *today's* market, with *today's* machines make that look pricey, from a strictly hardware POV. Once you start considering the entire machine, which is, after all, what one buys, then the arguments starts to break down.
'A comparable machine' cannot be found for a lot less, once the entirety of hardware, OS, security, stability, apps, technologies and usability is taken into consideration. It's just that simple. I actually care much less about the platform brand than what it can do for me. If you can, seriously, point me to an alternative, I'll take a look. Nothing I've seen comes close.
As to $1300 (or any amount) being pricey, or not, for a given family and their financial situation, that's up to the family to decide. I'm certainly not going to make any blankets statements regarding the absolute value of a monetary amount to a particular situation. For *me* $1300 is over a month's wages, so yeah, it's pricey as hell. For others, not so much. *shrug*
You're right, I do. I look at the entire package for what it does for me, how it lets me work, and what I *don't* have to do to keep it running. You're absolutely right that that's a minority view... it's a more holistic and informed view than the majority of the population who are going to make ignorant choices based on what is shoved down their throat as 'necessary' by the specwhores of the world.
Simply put, I'll take a slower but more enabling machine any day. In the end, that's all that matters... what it can do for me. Not the specs in a vacuum.
yea, whatever? you are
the choir aint veering off anywhere. you're veering off into some idealogical lala land that really doesn't matter to anything here and makes you come across as holier than thou.
apple can compete on price in other products, there is no reason they can't hear. there is no reason they can't provide options. there is no reason they can't release a fully build to order and customizable consumer machine like every other computer manufacter can do. there is no reason apple needs to keep trying to repackage products that don't meet the needs and desires of its customers in hopes that eventually they'll get something right.
seems most people seem to do fine with the horrible experience of windows and its accompanying software and seem to manage burning cds, dvds, organizing photos and music just fine with their crappy software. does the better experience of the mac offer enough incentive to overcome price, lack of a future, and popular myths? apparently not.
If you are really interested by the perfect gaming machine, wait for the next PS3 or the...
If you really want to play a game on the Mac, buy a PowerMac G5 or just get an iMac and turn all the settings on low...
If you really want an affordable system, get an eMac...
If you really want expandability, get a PowerMac...
If you really want expandability at a good price, get a PC....
If you really want to play games, get a cheap PC...
If you really want a computer cheaper than an PowerMac, get an iMac...
If you really want an upgradeable video card (because nobody needs that), get a PowerMac...
If you really don't want the monitor attached to your computer, get a Power Mac...
If you really want a headless computer for an affordable price, get a PC...
If you really want a..... ah forget it.... just "get a fuggin life"
What is with the "put up or shut up" attitude of Mac users on these boards? There seems to be camp of people that are very sharply divided. What is so wrong with being critical of Apple and their products? Can we not say something without having someone snap, "just shut up and get a PC"?
I love Mac OS X (that's obviously why I'm here) but Apple's hardware is really holding them back, they are not allowing OS X to fully compete with Windows. On top of that, they haven't done anything with their 3% marketshare and stagnate unit growth, despite 50+ stores world-wide an an aggressive switcher campaign.
I, along with others, see flaws in their products and their inability to listen to their users and research markets to see what buyers want/need in a personal computer. Everyone here has their own opinion on what should be done, which is what these boards are for... intelligent debate.
the choir aint veering off anywhere. you're veering off into some idealogical lala land that really doesn't matter to anything here and makes you come across as holier than thou.
Actually, I'm merely pointing out a serious hole in the argument that a 'comparable machine' can be found for less. 'Comparable' should include much more than the hardware, since the user interacts with much more than just the hardware. It's a pretty simple concept. Comparable hardware can be found for less. A comparable *system* can not, and that's what you're buying.
Quote:
apple can compete on price in other products, there is no reason they can't hear.
Considering that their motherboards, controller chips, and such are all done in-house, and not bought en masse from a third party, I have serious problems believing this assertion. There are plenty of reasons that could exist. You're going to have to back this claim up to convince me that there is 'no reason'.
Quote:
there is no reason they can't provide options. there is no reason they can't release a fully build to order and customizable consumer machine like every other computer manufacter can do.
Options are good. Too many options are confusing - same principle applies to UI widgets as it does here. It's basic psychology. Give someone more than a few well defined options, and most people just throw up their hands. I'd like to see more BTO as well, but 'no reason' doesn't apply here either.
Quote:
there is no reason apple needs to keep trying to repackage products that don't meet the needs and desires of its customers in hopes that eventually they'll get something right.
If they meet the needs and desires of most of the populace, then they're doing great.
Frankly, I have a seriously cynical view of people anyway, so I believe that most people haven't a *CLUE* what they actually need or desire... they just want what they're told to want. And what they're told to want is hardware specs, the rest of the system be damned.
Quote:
seems most people seem to do fine with the horrible experience of windows and its accompanying software and seem to manage burning cds, dvds, organizing photos and music just fine with their crappy software. does the better experience of the mac offer enough incentive to overcome price, lack of a future, and popular myths? apparently not. [/B]
It seem to me that there are a bunch of separate issues all getting jumbled up here. As I see it, all of these questions apply to the Think Secret G5 iMac:
Is $1300 (US) a lot of money?
As if this question has an answer.
Obviously for some people $1300 is a lot of money, for others it isn't. Some people who can't afford $1300 will still think it's a reasonable price for a 17" G5 iMac, some people who can afford $1300 will bitch about the price anyway. Compared to what many people actually spend on computers, however, and not the $499 bargains that are advertised to lure customers in, $1300 isn't all that unreasonable. Someone else posted that the average price for the systems Dell actually sells is around $1500.
Is this G5 iMac going to win Apple a lot of market share?
I rather doubt that it will. I think this new iMac (as Think Secret's rumors describe it, at least) will sell reasonably well, but it will sell more to the existing base that to "switchers". If Apple really does want to attract more switchers, these new iMacs aren't the machines to do it with.
That's not the same thing as saying the iMac is a bad system, however.
Is what you'd get for $1300 worth it?
That's a complicated question that's obviously dependent on the personal needs of individual buyers. For one thing, if you don't want to spend money on the iMac's built-in monitor, of course that makes the value of the iMac questionable. But why bitch about the iMac for being what it is? If you don't want an AIO, don't buy an AIO. Bitch that Apple doesn't make a cheap headless system if you feel you have to bitch about something.
If you compare raw hardware features, the iMac is more expensive than a comparable PC, but not so much more so as all the bitching and moaning around here would lead one to believe. Go do what I did -- go to Dell's web site and try to build yourself a $999 system which includes a 17" LCD. (Remember that the cheapest shipping option adds $99, BTW. Apple ships for free, and there are retail stores you can go to as well.)
See what crap you get, including an analog-only flatscreen display and video hardware even lowlier than the GeForce FX 5200 Ultra which produces such heart-rending wails of anguished disappointed around here. Step up to Dell's better-quality 17" LCD, and you'll be right there around $1300.
You won't want to play Doom III on the above Dell either.
If $1300 is the price of the EDU model of the G5 iMac -- unclear to me from the Think Secret article -- the hardware-spec value proposition suffers a bit more than if $1300 gets you the combo drive model, but still not grievously so.
If you want a serious gaming machine, don't buy an iMac. I think that's simple enough. How much does the fact that the new iMac won't be a great gaming machine, and doesn't have (as is so often pined for here) an upgradable video card, effect the G5 iMac's value proposition? Not nearly so much as the consternation in this forum over those things would make one believe.
I have no figures or tests to base this on, but I'm guessing that a 1.6 GHz G5 will fair quite well compared to the 2.4 GHz Celeron you'd get in a PC at this price range, in a system that included a high-quality 17" LCD display for the price.
Is $1300 reasonable considering Apple's likely costs in building one of these things?
This question is not "Would a hypothetical cheaper Mac in a bland Dell-style box with a cheesey monitor (or no monitor at all) make me happy?" The question is, regardless of whether or not you want what comes with the purported G5 iMac, if you accept that what you get is what you get, is what you get reasonably priced?
Given the quality of the LCD display, Apple's smaller sales volume, and Apple's almost certainly higher costs for things like a custom G5 motherboard vs. the kind of commodity-priced Celeron mobo you'll get in a cheap Dell "bargain" system -- I don't see $1300 as that far out of line at all.
I, along with others, see flaws in their products and their inability to listen to their users and research markets to see what buyers want/need in a personal computer. Everyone here has their own opinion on what should be done, which is what these boards are for... intelligent debate.
I agree, but some of the recent debates have lost their intelligence and become more emotional and vicious on both sides.
you're an ignorant waste of life if you're using the logic of a 1700 dollar tax return to tell me i don't know what I'm talking about.
Puhleeez your a baby son. You need to sit down, listen and let us grown folks talk. You haven't had hair on your nuts more than 3 years and now you're trying hang with us and give us knowledge? You better know your place kid. You can't can't even order drink for a dame in bar how am I gonna take life lessons from YOU? That's some funny shit. You aren't even on the same level as most of the adults here on this board. You need to shut the mouth and listen to your professors. You haven't lived enough to know what you're talking about. You're the one that needs experience..we got it.
You'll get there but too much piss and vinegar without experience is worthless.
I think the TS specs are good for the $1300 system. What I want and am willing to pay $$ for is graphic card expandability. I don't know what thread at what site I said it, but I don't want my computer to be hobbled in 18 months (think about all of us Rev A TiBook users who couldn't use Quartz Extreme 18 months after purchase, which is 50% of the "useful life" espoused here and elsewhere) simply due to a non-upgradeable graphics card.
Why should I be forced into some box that Apple thinks I belong in? Even forgetting about the enforced LCD purchase, why can't these machines be more user upgradeable?
Heck, maybe if Apple is the only place to get upgraded graphics cards they can turn it into a new revenue stream.
If nothing else, the continued arguing in this thread shows there is a demand for upgradeable video cards. In the real world, demand drives products and product enhancements.
If you really want to play a game on the Mac, buy a PowerMac G5 or just get an iMac and turn all the settings on low...
If you really want an affordable system, get an eMac...
If you really want expandability, get a PowerMac...
If you really want expandability at a good price, get a PC....
If you really want to play games, get a cheap PC...
If you really want a computer cheaper than an PowerMac, get an iMac...
If you really want an upgradeable video card (because nobody needs that), get a PowerMac...
If you really don't want the monitor attached to your computer, get a Power Mac...
If you really want a headless computer for an affordable price, get a PC...
If you really want a..... ah forget it.... just "get a fuggin life"
What is with the "put up or shut up" attitude of Mac users on these boards? There seems to be camp of people that are very sharply divided. What is so wrong with being critical of Apple and their products? Can we not say something without having someone snap, "just shut up and get a PC"?
I love Mac OS X (that's obviously why I'm here) but Apple's hardware is really holding them back, they are not allowing OS X to fully compete with Windows. On top of that, they haven't done anything with their 3% marketshare and stagnate unit growth, despite 50+ stores world-wide an an aggressive switcher campaign.
I, along with others, see flaws in their products and their inability to listen to their users and research markets to see what buyers want/need in a personal computer. Everyone here has their own opinion on what should be done, which is what these boards are for... intelligent debate.
This is not a put up or shut up attitude, this is an evidence. For playing games (but I am just an occasional game lurker) I use a PC. Why ? even if my powermac dual G5 certainly kick the ass of my Athlon 2400, the amount of game avalaible quickly for the PC is much more important than for the mac. For example I play and i appreciated greatly Neverwinter Night on PC, months before the Mac version was released.
With 3 % marketshare, Apple has no chance to become the leading company in gaming machines.
Now, if you took the time to read some othes post I made, I said that the geforce 5200 will be disapointing in the high end model I mac (and I may add the middle one also).
I am also for an intelligent debate, a debate, where people who will interpret correctly other people's posts, and do not shout " Apple Apologist" each time a poster disagree with them.
Puhleeez your a baby son. You need to sit down, listen and let us grown folks talk. You haven't had hair on your nuts more than 3 years and now you're trying hang with us and give us knowledge? You better know your place kid. You can't can't even order drink for a dame in bar how am I gonna take life lessons from YOU? That's some funny shit. You aren't even on the same level as most of the adults here on this board. You need to shut the mouth and listen to your professors. You haven't lived enough to know what you're talking about. You're the one that needs experience..we got it.
You'll get there but too much piss and vinegar without experience is worthless.
You're a grownup? You sound like a snot to me.
Funny how discussion of rumored computer specs can degenerate into this kind of hate-filled vitriol.
Also funny is that 10 years ago, I was giving plenty of computer purchasing advice to people twice my age (at least) and they respected my opinion. Age has nothing to do with intelligence and aptitude, as you so aptly demonstrate in your post.
If nothing else, the continued arguing in this thread shows there is a demand for [wanted feature]. In the real world, demand drives products and product enhancements.
I'm just razzing Applenut because he's a New Yorker and I know he can take it. I've read his posts for 3 years and he's a smart man but he's a tough cookie and I respect that. Obviously you are one of the new "Kinder Gentler men" . I'm sorry if I hurt your sensitive little feelings but despite my geekiness I do like a little "locker room" talk and machismo every now and then. You should try it more. You can call me worse than a snot man I don't care..when we argue on these boards..it STAYS on these boards. If I met anyone one of you in Seattle I'd let you buy me a beer. Well unless you're Matsu..then you'd "have" to buy him his beer
AN knows I'm ribbing him. He'll call me an ass or a prick and that'll be that. It's all good. BTW I'm kidding about the Kinder Gentler thing, I'm a bit of a joker but I "do" love to argue.
Comparable hardware can be found for less. A comparable *system* can not
Absolutely, but again you're just preaching to the choir. 95% of buyers don't understand the Mac experience. They see two machines with DVD burners and music and movie software. One looks nicer, but costs several hundred dollars more, so they understandably go with the cheap one. Apple has two choices: either educate the public about the superior Mac experience, or reduce the price differential. They are currently doing neither.
Taxes? Don't get me started!!! Dunno about any of you guys but between my wife and I, we pay more in Fed taxes alone to support another whole family! (including a nice vacation for them each year!).
Also if ANYONE is getting more than $400 back on their taxes YOU ARE IDIOTS!!!! Why on earth are you letting the government USE YOUR MONEY for FREE!?!?!?!?! My gosh!!! What happened to all the good tax advisors?!?!
I really WISH that the IRS would send each and every tax payer a BILL every month instead of this crappy auto-estimated automatic withdrawal system we have now... This would do 2 things:
1 - Tax-n-Spend Democrats (or Republicans) would NEVER get re-elected again
2 - People would really SEE how much the Fed and State grab from you each month.
Why not each taxpayer in the US give ME $2500 this year and I'll simply issue you a $2500 refund 4 months into the following year... I sure as hell think it sounds GREAT to me!!! The real killer is, most of you folks are HAPPY to get back that 'BIG RETURN' .... People are so freaking odd!!!
Do you have a child? Didn't think so. You're are inexperienced in this area and frankly don't know what you're talking about. After the birth of my son two years ago my tax returns went from $900 childless to $1700.
Er, I certainly hope you're spending more than $800 a year taking care of your son.
Absolutely, but again you're just preaching to the choir. 95% of buyers don't understand the Mac experience. They see two machines with DVD burners and music and movie software. One looks nicer, but costs several hundred dollars more, so they understandably go with the cheap one. Apple has two choices: either educate the public about the superior Mac experience, or reduce the price differential. They are currently doing neither.
Agreed. But to argue that the latter is the only reasonable course for Apple is... short-sighted.
Get the word out. AMD started the ball rolling with the new naming scheme, and now even Intel is jumping on the bandwagon, defocussing on MHz. The trend is coming - absolute hardware specs matter less, relative worth of the system matters more.
And as for Apple itself educating the masses... iTunes is a start. I know a lot of PC users that use it and *love* it, and have asked questions about iLife specifically because of exposure to iTunes and the iTMS. "Is it all this nice?" "Does it really come for free?" etc This is one arena where ad campaigns just aren't capable of doing it justice in 30 sec spots. Sucks.
I think the TS specs are good for the $1300 system. What I want and am willing to pay $$ for is graphic card expandability. I don't know what thread at what site I said it, but I don't want my computer to be hobbled in 18 months (think about all of us Rev A TiBook users who couldn't use Quartz Extreme 18 months after purchase, which is 50% of the "useful life" espoused here and elsewhere) simply due to a non-upgradeable graphics card.
Laptops are a special case.
Quote:
If nothing else, the continued arguing in this thread shows there is a demand for upgradeable video cards. In the real world, demand drives products and product enhancements.
The question is not whether there is demand, but whether there's enough. There was demand for the Cube, too. After all, I have one.
Just remember: Graphics card expandability means constraining the design to accept a 12" card of nearly arbitrary heat and noise characteristics (which means a beefed-up cooling system), adding height to satisfy the recent NVIDIA proclivity for taking up a neighboring PCI slot, beefing up the power supply to handle an essentially arbitrary power draw, and of course paying more for an entire graphics card, and for the additional overhead of swapping it in from a BTO list, instead of just paying for a single GPU soldered to the board. So everyone is accepting a larger, louder, less elegant and costlier design for the distinct minority that will ever upgrade the GPU. At best, this will make the iMac no better a design than any random PC tower, and those aren't designed for consumer use at all - in fact, it's a stretch to even say they're designed.
Comments
Originally posted by Kickaha
Yeah, whatever.
Because the choir keeps veering off into this bizarre idea that 'a comparable machine' can be had for a lot less. The machine is more than the hardware. You *know* this... and yet you, and a lot of people in here, are going to keep making ridiculous statements about 'comparable' machines. Yeah, you *bet* I can go get comparable *hardware* for less. No dispute there. But the very advantages that make you a Mac user are the ones you're paying for, and you'd stop and think about it for a minute, you'd realize how silly the 'comparable machine for less' stance really is.
Ah, but that one phrase is the crux of your argument, isn't it?
If one could *not* find comparable *hardware* for less, then you wouldn't be even attempting the position. But the hardware *can* be had for less... it's just the most important bits that would be missing. There's where the argument breaks down. Price only matters in a relative manner... $1300 would be dirt cheap 10 years ago, but *today's* market, with *today's* machines make that look pricey, from a strictly hardware POV. Once you start considering the entire machine, which is, after all, what one buys, then the arguments starts to break down.
'A comparable machine' cannot be found for a lot less, once the entirety of hardware, OS, security, stability, apps, technologies and usability is taken into consideration. It's just that simple. I actually care much less about the platform brand than what it can do for me. If you can, seriously, point me to an alternative, I'll take a look. Nothing I've seen comes close.
As to $1300 (or any amount) being pricey, or not, for a given family and their financial situation, that's up to the family to decide. I'm certainly not going to make any blankets statements regarding the absolute value of a monetary amount to a particular situation. For *me* $1300 is over a month's wages, so yeah, it's pricey as hell. For others, not so much. *shrug*
You're right, I do. I look at the entire package for what it does for me, how it lets me work, and what I *don't* have to do to keep it running. You're absolutely right that that's a minority view... it's a more holistic and informed view than the majority of the population who are going to make ignorant choices based on what is shoved down their throat as 'necessary' by the specwhores of the world.
Simply put, I'll take a slower but more enabling machine any day. In the end, that's all that matters... what it can do for me. Not the specs in a vacuum.
yea, whatever? you are
the choir aint veering off anywhere. you're veering off into some idealogical lala land that really doesn't matter to anything here and makes you come across as holier than thou.
apple can compete on price in other products, there is no reason they can't hear. there is no reason they can't provide options. there is no reason they can't release a fully build to order and customizable consumer machine like every other computer manufacter can do. there is no reason apple needs to keep trying to repackage products that don't meet the needs and desires of its customers in hopes that eventually they'll get something right.
seems most people seem to do fine with the horrible experience of windows and its accompanying software and seem to manage burning cds, dvds, organizing photos and music just fine with their crappy software. does the better experience of the mac offer enough incentive to overcome price, lack of a future, and popular myths? apparently not.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
If you are really interested by the perfect gaming machine, wait for the next PS3 or the...
If you really want to play a game on the Mac, buy a PowerMac G5 or just get an iMac and turn all the settings on low...
If you really want an affordable system, get an eMac...
If you really want expandability, get a PowerMac...
If you really want expandability at a good price, get a PC....
If you really want to play games, get a cheap PC...
If you really want a computer cheaper than an PowerMac, get an iMac...
If you really want an upgradeable video card (because nobody needs that), get a PowerMac...
If you really don't want the monitor attached to your computer, get a Power Mac...
If you really want a headless computer for an affordable price, get a PC...
If you really want a..... ah forget it.... just "get a fuggin life"
What is with the "put up or shut up" attitude of Mac users on these boards? There seems to be camp of people that are very sharply divided. What is so wrong with being critical of Apple and their products? Can we not say something without having someone snap, "just shut up and get a PC"?
I love Mac OS X (that's obviously why I'm here) but Apple's hardware is really holding them back, they are not allowing OS X to fully compete with Windows. On top of that, they haven't done anything with their 3% marketshare and stagnate unit growth, despite 50+ stores world-wide an an aggressive switcher campaign.
I, along with others, see flaws in their products and their inability to listen to their users and research markets to see what buyers want/need in a personal computer. Everyone here has their own opinion on what should be done, which is what these boards are for... intelligent debate.
Originally posted by applenut
yea, whatever? you are
And yet somehow, I'm not able to care.
the choir aint veering off anywhere. you're veering off into some idealogical lala land that really doesn't matter to anything here and makes you come across as holier than thou.
Actually, I'm merely pointing out a serious hole in the argument that a 'comparable machine' can be found for less. 'Comparable' should include much more than the hardware, since the user interacts with much more than just the hardware. It's a pretty simple concept. Comparable hardware can be found for less. A comparable *system* can not, and that's what you're buying.
apple can compete on price in other products, there is no reason they can't hear.
Considering that their motherboards, controller chips, and such are all done in-house, and not bought en masse from a third party, I have serious problems believing this assertion. There are plenty of reasons that could exist. You're going to have to back this claim up to convince me that there is 'no reason'.
there is no reason they can't provide options. there is no reason they can't release a fully build to order and customizable consumer machine like every other computer manufacter can do.
Options are good. Too many options are confusing - same principle applies to UI widgets as it does here. It's basic psychology. Give someone more than a few well defined options, and most people just throw up their hands. I'd like to see more BTO as well, but 'no reason' doesn't apply here either.
there is no reason apple needs to keep trying to repackage products that don't meet the needs and desires of its customers in hopes that eventually they'll get something right.
If they meet the needs and desires of most of the populace, then they're doing great.
Frankly, I have a seriously cynical view of people anyway, so I believe that most people haven't a *CLUE* what they actually need or desire... they just want what they're told to want. And what they're told to want is hardware specs, the rest of the system be damned.
seems most people seem to do fine with the horrible experience of windows and its accompanying software and seem to manage burning cds, dvds, organizing photos and music just fine with their crappy software. does the better experience of the mac offer enough incentive to overcome price, lack of a future, and popular myths? apparently not. [/B]
Serious question: then why do *you* use a Mac?
Is $1300 (US) a lot of money?
As if this question has an answer.
Obviously for some people $1300 is a lot of money, for others it isn't. Some people who can't afford $1300 will still think it's a reasonable price for a 17" G5 iMac, some people who can afford $1300 will bitch about the price anyway. Compared to what many people actually spend on computers, however, and not the $499 bargains that are advertised to lure customers in, $1300 isn't all that unreasonable. Someone else posted that the average price for the systems Dell actually sells is around $1500.
Is this G5 iMac going to win Apple a lot of market share?
I rather doubt that it will. I think this new iMac (as Think Secret's rumors describe it, at least) will sell reasonably well, but it will sell more to the existing base that to "switchers". If Apple really does want to attract more switchers, these new iMacs aren't the machines to do it with.
That's not the same thing as saying the iMac is a bad system, however.
Is what you'd get for $1300 worth it?
That's a complicated question that's obviously dependent on the personal needs of individual buyers. For one thing, if you don't want to spend money on the iMac's built-in monitor, of course that makes the value of the iMac questionable. But why bitch about the iMac for being what it is? If you don't want an AIO, don't buy an AIO. Bitch that Apple doesn't make a cheap headless system if you feel you have to bitch about something.
If you compare raw hardware features, the iMac is more expensive than a comparable PC, but not so much more so as all the bitching and moaning around here would lead one to believe. Go do what I did -- go to Dell's web site and try to build yourself a $999 system which includes a 17" LCD. (Remember that the cheapest shipping option adds $99, BTW. Apple ships for free, and there are retail stores you can go to as well.)
See what crap you get, including an analog-only flatscreen display and video hardware even lowlier than the GeForce FX 5200 Ultra which produces such heart-rending wails of anguished disappointed around here. Step up to Dell's better-quality 17" LCD, and you'll be right there around $1300.
You won't want to play Doom III on the above Dell either.
If $1300 is the price of the EDU model of the G5 iMac -- unclear to me from the Think Secret article -- the hardware-spec value proposition suffers a bit more than if $1300 gets you the combo drive model, but still not grievously so.
If you want a serious gaming machine, don't buy an iMac. I think that's simple enough. How much does the fact that the new iMac won't be a great gaming machine, and doesn't have (as is so often pined for here) an upgradable video card, effect the G5 iMac's value proposition? Not nearly so much as the consternation in this forum over those things would make one believe.
I have no figures or tests to base this on, but I'm guessing that a 1.6 GHz G5 will fair quite well compared to the 2.4 GHz Celeron you'd get in a PC at this price range, in a system that included a high-quality 17" LCD display for the price.
Is $1300 reasonable considering Apple's likely costs in building one of these things?
This question is not "Would a hypothetical cheaper Mac in a bland Dell-style box with a cheesey monitor (or no monitor at all) make me happy?" The question is, regardless of whether or not you want what comes with the purported G5 iMac, if you accept that what you get is what you get, is what you get reasonably priced?
Given the quality of the LCD display, Apple's smaller sales volume, and Apple's almost certainly higher costs for things like a custom G5 motherboard vs. the kind of commodity-priced Celeron mobo you'll get in a cheap Dell "bargain" system -- I don't see $1300 as that far out of line at all.
Originally posted by bborofka
I, along with others, see flaws in their products and their inability to listen to their users and research markets to see what buyers want/need in a personal computer. Everyone here has their own opinion on what should be done, which is what these boards are for... intelligent debate.
I agree, but some of the recent debates have lost their intelligence and become more emotional and vicious on both sides.
you're an ignorant waste of life if you're using the logic of a 1700 dollar tax return to tell me i don't know what I'm talking about.
Puhleeez your a baby son. You need to sit down, listen and let us grown folks talk. You haven't had hair on your nuts more than 3 years and now you're trying hang with us and give us knowledge? You better know your place kid. You can't can't even order drink for a dame in bar how am I gonna take life lessons from YOU? That's some funny shit. You aren't even on the same level as most of the adults here on this board. You need to shut the mouth and listen to your professors. You haven't lived enough to know what you're talking about. You're the one that needs experience..we got it.
You'll get there but too much piss and vinegar without experience is worthless.
Why should I be forced into some box that Apple thinks I belong in? Even forgetting about the enforced LCD purchase, why can't these machines be more user upgradeable?
Heck, maybe if Apple is the only place to get upgraded graphics cards they can turn it into a new revenue stream.
If nothing else, the continued arguing in this thread shows there is a demand for upgradeable video cards. In the real world, demand drives products and product enhancements.
Originally posted by bborofka
If you really want to play a game on the Mac, buy a PowerMac G5 or just get an iMac and turn all the settings on low...
If you really want an affordable system, get an eMac...
If you really want expandability, get a PowerMac...
If you really want expandability at a good price, get a PC....
If you really want to play games, get a cheap PC...
If you really want a computer cheaper than an PowerMac, get an iMac...
If you really want an upgradeable video card (because nobody needs that), get a PowerMac...
If you really don't want the monitor attached to your computer, get a Power Mac...
If you really want a headless computer for an affordable price, get a PC...
If you really want a..... ah forget it.... just "get a fuggin life"
What is with the "put up or shut up" attitude of Mac users on these boards? There seems to be camp of people that are very sharply divided. What is so wrong with being critical of Apple and their products? Can we not say something without having someone snap, "just shut up and get a PC"?
I love Mac OS X (that's obviously why I'm here) but Apple's hardware is really holding them back, they are not allowing OS X to fully compete with Windows. On top of that, they haven't done anything with their 3% marketshare and stagnate unit growth, despite 50+ stores world-wide an an aggressive switcher campaign.
I, along with others, see flaws in their products and their inability to listen to their users and research markets to see what buyers want/need in a personal computer. Everyone here has their own opinion on what should be done, which is what these boards are for... intelligent debate.
This is not a put up or shut up attitude, this is an evidence. For playing games (but I am just an occasional game lurker) I use a PC. Why ? even if my powermac dual G5 certainly kick the ass of my Athlon 2400, the amount of game avalaible quickly for the PC is much more important than for the mac. For example I play and i appreciated greatly Neverwinter Night on PC, months before the Mac version was released.
With 3 % marketshare, Apple has no chance to become the leading company in gaming machines.
Now, if you took the time to read some othes post I made, I said that the geforce 5200 will be disapointing in the high end model I mac (and I may add the middle one also).
I am also for an intelligent debate, a debate, where people who will interpret correctly other people's posts, and do not shout " Apple Apologist" each time a poster disagree with them.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Puhleeez your a baby son. You need to sit down, listen and let us grown folks talk. You haven't had hair on your nuts more than 3 years and now you're trying hang with us and give us knowledge? You better know your place kid. You can't can't even order drink for a dame in bar how am I gonna take life lessons from YOU? That's some funny shit. You aren't even on the same level as most of the adults here on this board. You need to shut the mouth and listen to your professors. You haven't lived enough to know what you're talking about. You're the one that needs experience..we got it.
You'll get there but too much piss and vinegar without experience is worthless.
You're a grownup? You sound like a snot to me.
Funny how discussion of rumored computer specs can degenerate into this kind of hate-filled vitriol.
Also funny is that 10 years ago, I was giving plenty of computer purchasing advice to people twice my age (at least) and they respected my opinion. Age has nothing to do with intelligence and aptitude, as you so aptly demonstrate in your post.
Originally posted by PBG4 Dude
If nothing else, the continued arguing in this thread shows there is a demand for [wanted feature]. In the real world, demand drives products and product enhancements.
Me included
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Last word : people need to calm down.
Me included
I'm sooo glad you changed your sig, Powerdoc. Seeing received mis-spelled as receveid day after day was giving me a pulmonary embolism.
Originally posted by bborofka
i agree 100%
You're a grownup? You sound like a snot to me.
I'm just razzing Applenut because he's a New Yorker and I know he can take it. I've read his posts for 3 years and he's a smart man but he's a tough cookie and I respect that. Obviously you are one of the new "Kinder Gentler men" . I'm sorry if I hurt your sensitive little feelings but despite my geekiness I do like a little "locker room" talk and machismo every now and then. You should try it more. You can call me worse than a snot man I don't care..when we argue on these boards..it STAYS on these boards. If I met anyone one of you in Seattle I'd let you buy me a beer. Well unless you're Matsu..then you'd "have" to buy him his beer
AN knows I'm ribbing him. He'll call me an ass or a prick and that'll be that. It's all good. BTW I'm kidding about the Kinder Gentler thing, I'm a bit of a joker but I "do" love to argue.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Comparable hardware can be found for less. A comparable *system* can not
Absolutely, but again you're just preaching to the choir. 95% of buyers don't understand the Mac experience. They see two machines with DVD burners and music and movie software. One looks nicer, but costs several hundred dollars more, so they understandably go with the cheap one. Apple has two choices: either educate the public about the superior Mac experience, or reduce the price differential. They are currently doing neither.
Also if ANYONE is getting more than $400 back on their taxes YOU ARE IDIOTS!!!! Why on earth are you letting the government USE YOUR MONEY for FREE!?!?!?!?! My gosh!!! What happened to all the good tax advisors?!?!
I really WISH that the IRS would send each and every tax payer a BILL every month instead of this crappy auto-estimated automatic withdrawal system we have now... This would do 2 things:
1 - Tax-n-Spend Democrats (or Republicans) would NEVER get re-elected again
2 - People would really SEE how much the Fed and State grab from you each month.
Why not each taxpayer in the US give ME $2500 this year and I'll simply issue you a $2500 refund 4 months into the following year... I sure as hell think it sounds GREAT to me!!! The real killer is, most of you folks are HAPPY to get back that 'BIG RETURN' .... People are so freaking odd!!!
Sorry --- just had to rant...
Dave
Originally posted by hmurchison
Do you have a child? Didn't think so. You're are inexperienced in this area and frankly don't know what you're talking about. After the birth of my son two years ago my tax returns went from $900 childless to $1700.
Er, I certainly hope you're spending more than $800 a year taking care of your son.
Originally posted by 3.1416
Absolutely, but again you're just preaching to the choir. 95% of buyers don't understand the Mac experience. They see two machines with DVD burners and music and movie software. One looks nicer, but costs several hundred dollars more, so they understandably go with the cheap one. Apple has two choices: either educate the public about the superior Mac experience, or reduce the price differential. They are currently doing neither.
Agreed. But to argue that the latter is the only reasonable course for Apple is... short-sighted.
Get the word out. AMD started the ball rolling with the new naming scheme, and now even Intel is jumping on the bandwagon, defocussing on MHz. The trend is coming - absolute hardware specs matter less, relative worth of the system matters more.
And as for Apple itself educating the masses... iTunes is a start. I know a lot of PC users that use it and *love* it, and have asked questions about iLife specifically because of exposure to iTunes and the iTMS. "Is it all this nice?" "Does it really come for free?" etc This is one arena where ad campaigns just aren't capable of doing it justice in 30 sec spots. Sucks.
Originally posted by PBG4 Dude
I think the TS specs are good for the $1300 system. What I want and am willing to pay $$ for is graphic card expandability. I don't know what thread at what site I said it, but I don't want my computer to be hobbled in 18 months (think about all of us Rev A TiBook users who couldn't use Quartz Extreme 18 months after purchase, which is 50% of the "useful life" espoused here and elsewhere) simply due to a non-upgradeable graphics card.
Laptops are a special case.
If nothing else, the continued arguing in this thread shows there is a demand for upgradeable video cards. In the real world, demand drives products and product enhancements.
The question is not whether there is demand, but whether there's enough. There was demand for the Cube, too. After all, I have one.
Just remember: Graphics card expandability means constraining the design to accept a 12" card of nearly arbitrary heat and noise characteristics (which means a beefed-up cooling system), adding height to satisfy the recent NVIDIA proclivity for taking up a neighboring PCI slot, beefing up the power supply to handle an essentially arbitrary power draw, and of course paying more for an entire graphics card, and for the additional overhead of swapping it in from a BTO list, instead of just paying for a single GPU soldered to the board. So everyone is accepting a larger, louder, less elegant and costlier design for the distinct minority that will ever upgrade the GPU. At best, this will make the iMac no better a design than any random PC tower, and those aren't designed for consumer use at all - in fact, it's a stretch to even say they're designed.