If you are REALLY GOOD, you can re-engage the transmission without using the clutch by matching the engine RPM and the transmission input shaft RPM... this will take lots of practice The clutch was created to make shifting EASIER... not to make it POSSIBLE. well... it's needed to get started from a stationary condition, I suppose.
When he was teaching me to drive stick, my brother demonstrated this, just to show off. But of course, it's probably a lot easier to do in the jeep than a fancy super car.
Not that I'm a torque converter whore or anything, but for most people, what's the damned point of owning a car manual/standard transmission? Hell, even drivers in motorsports like F1 don't have to deal with clutches anymore. And the Pi dashes on most of those cars tell you precisely when to shift as well.
Manual transmissions are more efficient than automatic and you have more control of the car. (You tell it when to shift and such.) That gives you an advantage when racing against automatics if you know how to use it. Race cars have special transmissions that force one gear out while at the same time pushing another in, avoiding the clutch altogether to save time. They do still have racing clutches for first gear. The lights recommend when to shift but the driver still has complete control over when the shift occurs. But those transmissions don't last long at all. There are a few cars that also use this technology, but they are really expensive.
Not that I'm a torque converter whore or anything, but for most people, what's the damned point of owning a car manual/standard transmission? Hell, even drivers in motorsports like F1 don't have to deal with clutches anymore. And the Pi dashes on most of those cars tell you precisely when to shift as well.
personally, I have a lot more fun driving manual, it feels like I'm driving the car, not the other way around. but that said, I also like just vegging on an automatic trans. Additionally, I think it's valuable skill to have, if you can drive manual well, you can drive automatic by proxy, but if you can only drive auto, then manual can be difficult to learn.
Manual transmissions are more efficient than automatic and you have more control of the car. (You tell it when to shift and such.) That gives you an advantage when racing against automatics if you know how to use it. Race cars have special transmissions that force one gear out while at the same time pushing another in, avoiding the clutch altogether to save time. They do still have racing clutches for first gear. The lights recommend when to shift but the driver still has complete control over when the shift occurs. But those transmissions don't last long at all. There are a few cars that also use this technology, but they are really expensive.
1) A modern torque converter is basically as efficient as standard tranny. this is especially true for the average car owner.
2a) If human control is so great, why were many F1 teams using fully automatic transmissions two years ago?
2b) In F1, everything surrounding a shift (except during starts and pit stops as you said) is computer controlled. The driver doesn't have to do anything but tug on the shift paddle or lever. The driver doesn't have to do so much as to lift off the gas as you would in your road car.
1) A modern torque converter is basically as efficient as standard tranny. this is especially true for the average car owner.
I think that big difference is that a lot of the time you'll see a car that comes in a 4 speed auto (sometimes 5) and a 6 speed manual. The Pontiac GTO, for example, has a 6 speed manual, and the manual gets a lot better highway mileage.
If you are REALLY GOOD, you can re-engage the transmission without using the clutch by matching the engine RPM and the transmission input shaft RPM... this will take lots of practice The clutch was created to make shifting EASIER... not to make it POSSIBLE. well... it's needed to get started from a stationary condition, I suppose.
And it doesn't create any undue stress on the transmission... In fact, if you don't use the clutch, you'll never need to replace the pressure plates or throw-out bearing ... parts that normally wear out.
Yeah, right.. \ but even the best driver will screw up eventually, and all the wear that occurs is on parts that are not designed to take it, and are expensive to replace.
A really competent *race* driver will know how to drive without the clutch, but for every one else including amateur racers, it simply isn't necessary. Sure, I've tried it as well when I was figuring out how gearboxes work, but this is not something people should do a lot. It's best tried at very low speed to minimize the wear.
Eugene: the F1's have *manual* transmissions. They do not have a torque converter. Take a look at Ferrari Enzo: no clutch, no stick, but it's a 6-speed manual.
F1 cars have paddle shifters. They aren't manual transmissions as most people know them, and I'm not exactly sure how manual they are at all. I don't think they have torque converters, though.
as far as shifting without clutching, in order to do it you'll need to modify your transmission, since most of the ones I know of have synchromeshing and various other ways to keep you from messing things up. (such as shifting into 1st at 60mph.)
F1 cars have paddle shifters. They aren't manual transmissions as most people know them, and I'm not exactly sure how manual they are at all. I don't think they have torque converters, though.
The term is "sequential manual". Found in F1's, Ferraris, some BMW's, and some Audis .
didn't read everything but. on the braking into corners. YOu should learn to Heel-toe. YOu want to match revs to the gear so that your not lugging the engine or using the clutch to speed up the engine. Put your heel on the brake and toe the accelerator to where your engine woudl be if it was in the gear you are going to select then let the clutch out. You know you've done it right when you can't feel a change in power.
didn't read everything but. on the braking into corners. YOu should learn to Heel-toe. YOu want to match revs to the gear so that your not lugging the engine or using the clutch to speed up the engine. Put your heel on the brake and toe the accelerator to where your engine woudl be if it was in the gear you are going to select then let the clutch out. You know you've done it right when you can't feel a change in power.
I said nothing about using the engine to brake. I said to match revs. When I enter a turn I use the brakes not the engine. I match the revs to the gear I'm going into which is not involved in any braking action at all. I rarely use the engine for braking. I have a 88 BMW 325i with nearly 200,000 miles on it on the original engine. How you think it got so old?
I said nothing about using the engine to brake. I said to match revs. When I enter a turn I use the brakes not the engine. I match the revs to the gear I'm going into which is not involved in any braking action at all. I rarely use the engine for braking. I have a 88 BMW 325i with nearly 200,000 miles on it on the original engine. How you think it got so old?
Yes, you said to match revs and to use the brakes. This is equal to "do not engine brake", so you did say something about engine braking.
Now, with a car as old as yours, it might make sense not to engine brake even if it has fuel injection. I double clutch on every downchange ('81 Volvo with a carburetor, 320000+ km). But with a '90 or newer car, in normal traffic, the only place where it makes sense to heel-toe is when you downshift to make a pass. On approach to corner you have time and space to let revs drop and engine brake, so you should do exactly this. Good driving in traffic is different from good driving on a track.
"The sequence for a proper heel-toe downshift is as follows:[list=1][*] Apply the brake with the ball of your right foot.[*] Depress the clutch pedal with your left foot.[*] Place your hand on the gear lever.[*] Rotate your right foot counter-clockwise by pushing your heel away from you, then "blip" the throttle with the right edge of your right foot by rolling your foot down and to the right, while still applying even pressure to the brake pedal.[*] At the same [time] as the throttle blip, move the gear selector into the lower gear.[*] Release the clutch pedal quickly."[/list=1]
From another website, the description is as follows:
" ?Heel toe? is a misnomer. It can be done in many ways, depending on the pedals in the car, and the anatomy of the driver. Although it can be, it is not usually done with the heel and toe. The process is commonly done by placing the ball of the foot on the right side of the brake pedal, and while holding consistent brake pressure, the side of the foot rolls onto the throttle, ?blipping? the throttle. Depending on your anatomy, and the pedals, it can be done any way that allows the brakes to be used while the throttle is blipped."
Ok, I love smoother shifting, so I'll give this a shot sometime.
But with a '90 or newer car, in normal traffic, the only place where it makes sense to heel-toe is when you downshift to make a pass. On approach to corner you have time and space to let revs drop and engine brake, so you should do exactly this. Good driving in traffic is different from good driving on a track.
PS: Good car. I'd like a '90 318iS as my next.
Yeah I have Fuel Injection, And there are other times other than passing when you can use the techniques. For example on my way to work there is an exit that leads to a 180 loop and merge onto another highway. The exit speed is 25MPH and I regularly take it at 55-60 MPH, but need to slow into the loop and then speed out of it. I use the above mentioned heel-toe in such a situation
1. yes you can do that, nothing else then that will really happen, don't try to push it back in gear without the clutch though!
2. slow down to the speed you make the turn, then make the turn ! easy huh? ps in neutral, the oilpressure on the brake system might become less and less, thereofor the brakes will be less effective iaw no total controll over the car anymore ! Just don't do that! hehe
3. brakes are cheaper, as said before, but i use both... it feels nicer....
4. Fuel Effiency = +/- 2500rpm
5. 2 hands, never hold the shift if you are not going to use it. Same for your left foot, keep it off the clutch if you are not going to use it soon...
6. Red line? No problem, easy, nothing odd about it....
1. yes you can do that, nothing else then that will really happen, don't try to push it back in gear without the clutch though!
2. slow down to the speed you make the turn, then make the turn ! easy huh? ps in neutral, the oilpressure on the brake system might become less and less, thereofor the brakes will be less effective iaw no total controll over the car anymore ! Just don't do that! hehe
3. brakes are cheaper, as said before, but i use both... it feels nicer....
4. Fuel Effiency = +/- 2500rpm
5. 2 hands, never hold the shift if you are not going to use it. Same for your left foot, keep it off the clutch if you are not going to use it soon...
6. Red line? No problem, easy, nothing odd about it....
ehh don't believe the hype on the two hand things. One can drive a vehicle just fine with one hand and there's nothing wrong with having your hand aon the gear shift. the problem is putting weight on it. If the situation calls for two hands then use 'em both but this "two hand or you're an idiot idea is idiotic." Besides, you're supposed to be able to knock your hands off the steeing wheel without changing the direction of the vehicle. The white knuckle types scare me.
OK. What about the perennial Car Talk question: When coming to a stop, do you take it out of gear and ride the brakes or do you leave it in gear/use the brakes?
What about "coasting" (coming down a big hill--I live on a mountain--and taking it out of gear)?
ehh don't believe the hype on the two hand things. One can drive a vehicle just fine with one hand and there's nothing wrong with having your hand aon the gear shift. the problem is putting weight on it. If the situation calls for two hands then use 'em both but this "two hand or you're an idiot idea is idiotic." Besides, you're supposed to be able to knock your hands off the steeing wheel without changing the direction of the vehicle. The white knuckle types scare me.
So present one *reason* why the second hand should be on the shifter instead of on the wheel when you are not shifting.
Under all circumstances, if you only use one hand, that hand will tire quicker and be less accurate. Even when you have just grabbed the wheel, the one hand will lack control because two hands only have to exert half the force each.
I find it hard to imagine a situation where you have to shift as quickly as possible. But there are plenty of surprise situations that require you to use the wheel quickly and precisely, or else. Tire blows. A kid runs on the road. Five cars pile up in front of you. You feel the rear sliding out in rain/ice/oil spill. A 600kg moose trots in front of you. Et cetera.
Comments
Originally posted by KingOfSomewhereHot
If you are REALLY GOOD, you can re-engage the transmission without using the clutch by matching the engine RPM and the transmission input shaft RPM... this will take lots of practice
When he was teaching me to drive stick, my brother demonstrated this, just to show off. But of course, it's probably a lot easier to do in the jeep than a fancy super car.
Originally posted by Eugene
Not that I'm a torque converter whore or anything, but for most people, what's the damned point of owning a car manual/standard transmission? Hell, even drivers in motorsports like F1 don't have to deal with clutches anymore. And the Pi dashes on most of those cars tell you precisely when to shift as well.
personally, I have a lot more fun driving manual, it feels like I'm driving the car, not the other way around. but that said, I also like just vegging on an automatic trans. Additionally, I think it's valuable skill to have, if you can drive manual well, you can drive automatic by proxy, but if you can only drive auto, then manual can be difficult to learn.
Originally posted by Ebby
Manual transmissions are more efficient than automatic and you have more control of the car. (You tell it when to shift and such.) That gives you an advantage when racing against automatics if you know how to use it. Race cars have special transmissions that force one gear out while at the same time pushing another in, avoiding the clutch altogether to save time. They do still have racing clutches for first gear. The lights recommend when to shift but the driver still has complete control over when the shift occurs. But those transmissions don't last long at all. There are a few cars that also use this technology, but they are really expensive.
1) A modern torque converter is basically as efficient as standard tranny. this is especially true for the average car owner.
2a) If human control is so great, why were many F1 teams using fully automatic transmissions two years ago?
2b) In F1, everything surrounding a shift (except during starts and pit stops as you said) is computer controlled. The driver doesn't have to do anything but tug on the shift paddle or lever. The driver doesn't have to do so much as to lift off the gas as you would in your road car.
Originally posted by Eugene
1) A modern torque converter is basically as efficient as standard tranny. this is especially true for the average car owner.
I think that big difference is that a lot of the time you'll see a car that comes in a 4 speed auto (sometimes 5) and a 6 speed manual. The Pontiac GTO, for example, has a 6 speed manual, and the manual gets a lot better highway mileage.
Originally posted by KingOfSomewhereHot
If you are REALLY GOOD, you can re-engage the transmission without using the clutch by matching the engine RPM and the transmission input shaft RPM... this will take lots of practice
And it doesn't create any undue stress on the transmission... In fact, if you don't use the clutch, you'll never need to replace the pressure plates or throw-out bearing
Yeah, right..
A really competent *race* driver will know how to drive without the clutch, but for every one else including amateur racers, it simply isn't necessary. Sure, I've tried it as well when I was figuring out how gearboxes work, but this is not something people should do a lot. It's best tried at very low speed to minimize the wear.
Eugene: the F1's have *manual* transmissions. They do not have a torque converter. Take a look at Ferrari Enzo: no clutch, no stick, but it's a 6-speed manual.
as far as shifting without clutching, in order to do it you'll need to modify your transmission, since most of the ones I know of have synchromeshing and various other ways to keep you from messing things up. (such as shifting into 1st at 60mph.)
Originally posted by Splinemodel
F1 cars have paddle shifters. They aren't manual transmissions as most people know them, and I'm not exactly sure how manual they are at all. I don't think they have torque converters, though.
The term is "sequential manual". Found in F1's, Ferraris, some BMW's, and some Audis .
HTH.
Originally posted by Sondjata
didn't read everything but. on the braking into corners. YOu should learn to Heel-toe. YOu want to match revs to the gear so that your not lugging the engine or using the clutch to speed up the engine. Put your heel on the brake and toe the accelerator to where your engine woudl be if it was in the gear you are going to select then let the clutch out. You know you've done it right when you can't feel a change in power.
No. NO. Read what I wrote about engine braking.
Originally posted by Gon
No. NO. Read what I wrote about engine braking.
I said nothing about using the engine to brake. I said to match revs. When I enter a turn I use the brakes not the engine. I match the revs to the gear I'm going into which is not involved in any braking action at all. I rarely use the engine for braking. I have a 88 BMW 325i with nearly 200,000 miles on it on the original engine. How you think it got so old?
Originally posted by Sondjata
I said nothing about using the engine to brake. I said to match revs. When I enter a turn I use the brakes not the engine. I match the revs to the gear I'm going into which is not involved in any braking action at all. I rarely use the engine for braking. I have a 88 BMW 325i with nearly 200,000 miles on it on the original engine. How you think it got so old?
Yes, you said to match revs and to use the brakes. This is equal to "do not engine brake", so you did say something about engine braking.
Now, with a car as old as yours, it might make sense not to engine brake even if it has fuel injection. I double clutch on every downchange ('81 Volvo with a carburetor, 320000+ km). But with a '90 or newer car, in normal traffic, the only place where it makes sense to heel-toe is when you downshift to make a pass. On approach to corner you have time and space to let revs drop and engine brake, so you should do exactly this. Good driving in traffic is different from good driving on a track.
PS: Good car. I'd like a '90 318iS as my next.
"The sequence for a proper heel-toe downshift is as follows:[list=1][*] Apply the brake with the ball of your right foot.[*] Depress the clutch pedal with your left foot.[*] Place your hand on the gear lever.[*] Rotate your right foot counter-clockwise by pushing your heel away from you, then "blip" the throttle with the right edge of your right foot by rolling your foot down and to the right, while still applying even pressure to the brake pedal.[*] At the same [time] as the throttle blip, move the gear selector into the lower gear.[*] Release the clutch pedal quickly."[/list=1]
From another website, the description is as follows:
" ?Heel toe? is a misnomer. It can be done in many ways, depending on the pedals in the car, and the anatomy of the driver. Although it can be, it is not usually done with the heel and toe. The process is commonly done by placing the ball of the foot on the right side of the brake pedal, and while holding consistent brake pressure, the side of the foot rolls onto the throttle, ?blipping? the throttle. Depending on your anatomy, and the pedals, it can be done any way that allows the brakes to be used while the throttle is blipped."
Ok, I love smoother shifting, so I'll give this a shot sometime.
9) How does one make upshifts smoother?
Originally posted by THT
9) How does one make upshifts smoother?
Same way than downshifting, except you don't blip the throttle. *Be* smooth. Here's some analogies that might help or not.
Think about the clutch pedal (and other pedals as well!) as a sponge. Squeeze it, don't press it.
If you have ever shot a firearm, this is very much like trigger control. You don't pull a trigger, you squeeze it.
(especially when letting a pedal up) Try curling your toes back.
When you're engaging the clutch, stay off the gas.
Before you start to disengage the clutch, make sure you have backed off the gas.
Originally posted by Gon
But with a '90 or newer car, in normal traffic, the only place where it makes sense to heel-toe is when you downshift to make a pass. On approach to corner you have time and space to let revs drop and engine brake, so you should do exactly this. Good driving in traffic is different from good driving on a track.
PS: Good car. I'd like a '90 318iS as my next.
Yeah I have Fuel Injection, And there are other times other than passing when you can use the techniques. For example on my way to work there is an exit that leads to a 180 loop and merge onto another highway. The exit speed is 25MPH and I regularly take it at 55-60 MPH, but need to slow into the loop and then speed out of it. I use the above mentioned heel-toe in such a situation
2. slow down to the speed you make the turn, then make the turn ! easy huh? ps in neutral, the oilpressure on the brake system might become less and less, thereofor the brakes will be less effective iaw no total controll over the car anymore ! Just don't do that! hehe
3. brakes are cheaper, as said before, but i use both... it feels nicer....
4. Fuel Effiency = +/- 2500rpm
5. 2 hands, never hold the shift if you are not going to use it. Same for your left foot, keep it off the clutch if you are not going to use it soon...
6. Red line? No problem, easy, nothing odd about it....
Originally posted by sparhawk
1. yes you can do that, nothing else then that will really happen, don't try to push it back in gear without the clutch though!
2. slow down to the speed you make the turn, then make the turn ! easy huh? ps in neutral, the oilpressure on the brake system might become less and less, thereofor the brakes will be less effective iaw no total controll over the car anymore ! Just don't do that! hehe
3. brakes are cheaper, as said before, but i use both... it feels nicer....
4. Fuel Effiency = +/- 2500rpm
5. 2 hands, never hold the shift if you are not going to use it. Same for your left foot, keep it off the clutch if you are not going to use it soon...
6. Red line? No problem, easy, nothing odd about it....
ehh don't believe the hype on the two hand things. One can drive a vehicle just fine with one hand and there's nothing wrong with having your hand aon the gear shift. the problem is putting weight on it. If the situation calls for two hands then use 'em both but this "two hand or you're an idiot idea is idiotic." Besides, you're supposed to be able to knock your hands off the steeing wheel without changing the direction of the vehicle. The white knuckle types scare me.
What about "coasting" (coming down a big hill--I live on a mountain--and taking it out of gear)?
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by Sondjata
ehh don't believe the hype on the two hand things. One can drive a vehicle just fine with one hand and there's nothing wrong with having your hand aon the gear shift. the problem is putting weight on it. If the situation calls for two hands then use 'em both but this "two hand or you're an idiot idea is idiotic." Besides, you're supposed to be able to knock your hands off the steeing wheel without changing the direction of the vehicle. The white knuckle types scare me.
So present one *reason* why the second hand should be on the shifter instead of on the wheel when you are not shifting.
Under all circumstances, if you only use one hand, that hand will tire quicker and be less accurate. Even when you have just grabbed the wheel, the one hand will lack control because two hands only have to exert half the force each.
I find it hard to imagine a situation where you have to shift as quickly as possible. But there are plenty of surprise situations that require you to use the wheel quickly and precisely, or else. Tire blows. A kid runs on the road. Five cars pile up in front of you. You feel the rear sliding out in rain/ice/oil spill. A 600kg moose trots in front of you. Et cetera.