If you really want me to... (Keep in mind I am referring to tabs in an IM client - one of the topics in this thread - not the proliferation of tabs into apps where they do not solve a particular need, which I am against).
Fair enough. Above gedanken experiment does not apply to this topic then, although it still holds in my mind for the illustration of the inelegance of tabs in general.
Quote:
Actually you can, using a bar of tabs with simple icons on them.
Not to be persnickety, but how does a simple icon show *MORE* state than actually showing the *content of the window*?? You've abstracted the content into a set of icons, and it shows more state? Er... It may be quicker to glance at and see change indicators, but it can't be showing *more* state.
Quote:
No, I do not. I mean the simplification of application interfaces by moving away from multiple windows. The source list in iTunes, the account drawer in mail, the tabs in safari, the source list in iPhoto. Interfaces simplified into a single window (for great benefit!) by using some sort of tab or source list control.
But chats aren't sources or destinations. They aren't collections, or sets, or libraries. They are documents, for lack of a better analogy.
Quote:
Tabs are not a hack, and tabs in an IM client work in addition to the window management system, they are not meant to replace it.
But they do actually replace it, by taking over the window management. N windows become 1 with N subwindows... that's the very definition of taking over management of the content.
Quote:
Tabs (or a source list in a drawer) are used in an IM client to simplify the interface by keeping related information together in an organized fashion in a common place. Tabs are not a "throwback".
They are a throwback on the Mac in that they are looking for a problem to solve that is different than their original purpose on other systems.
I see an IM client as being like a text editor, but the documents are shared. I would never *dream* of using a text editor that was tabbed! Would you?
For one thing, tabs (in many implementations) break drag and drop between documents. Ouch. Big no-no.
Quote:
Tabs offer many advantages over Cmd-`, I've already stated them in my previous reply.
And they have many drawbacks as well, not the least of which is that they don't scale well, they don't work with many app content, and most implementations break drag-and-drop. I mean come on, that last one has got to be a biggie. You (generic programmer, not you in particular) just broke one the most *fundamental* UI elements, and it's not a hack? Hmmm.
Quote:
Without tabs, there are many conversation windows on my screen (clutter). With tabs, there is a common conversation window on my screen that holds all my conversations (organization). Did I explain it more clearly that time? [/B]
Yes, you did, but no more convincingly, sorry. I see why some people like them... but I refuse to accede that they are a general solution widget. The original problem they were designed to solve simply isn't an issue on the Mac.
Edit: Just saw your above reply... fair enough, you're limiting it to just the IM client, and that's it. I think at that point, it becomes merely an issue of personal taste, and we can agree to disagree?
Edit #2: Just saw your *below* reply... good to see your implementation does it right. Maybe you'll convince me yet... with a few more iterations...
Not to be persnickety, but how does a simple icon show *MORE* state than actually showing the *content of the window*??
The key word here is state. A simple icon can quickly show me which of my contacts are typing or have unviewed messages, and do not require me to stop what I'm doing (by hitting expose and looking all over the screen at the various windows) to see this information.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
But chats aren't sources or destinations.
A chat is communication between a source and a destination.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Yes, you did, but no more convincingly, sorry. I see why some people like them... but I refuse to accede that they are a general solution widget.
Actually, as long as you don't move the windows, Expose *does* put them right back where they were the last time you invoked it.
This is not true, unless you consider moving a changing window focus to be moving.
I just opened a bunch of windows, and if I used cmd~ to change focus before I used expose, the window positions in expose changed. If I reduced the number of windows to four, expose still changed window position, but was consistent in which quadrant it located each window.
The key word here is state. A simple icon can quickly show me which of my contacts are typing or have unviewed messages, and do not require me to stop what I'm doing (by hitting expose and looking all over the screen at the various windows) to see this information.
Right. It can show abstraction or simplification of relevant state, but does not show *more* state. I think we're in agreement here, with a slight issue of terminology muddying the water.
Quote:
A chat is communication between a source and a destination.
...
Oh come now. That's just...
...
Please tell me that was an attempt at humor.
Quote:
Who is asking you to accede on that point?
[/B]
In this thread, you are not. In previous threads, the battle has been between those of us who tried to point out that tabs are not the end all and be all of UI design, and the folks who thought every app would benefit from them. And it was FRICKING ANNOYING. *pant pant pant*
Without tabs, there are many conversation windows on my screen (clutter). With tabs, there is a common conversation window on my screen that holds all my conversations (organization). Did I explain it more clearly that time?
Why organize highly dynamic objects such as chat conversations?
I can understand iTunes sources and Mail mailboxes which stay put and hardly change...but chat conversations that come and go don't need organization.
Ah, you are correct. We only have it enabled for dragging of text at the moment (Try selecting some text from within the message view and dragging it to another tab).
Once we improve our direct connect and file transfer support (So that they work / work reliably), we'll open the tabs up for tracking images and other files.
Anyways here's what 9 conversations in a window the same size as the windows in the Exposé screenshot on page 2 looks like with tabs.
The truncation is already pretty bad but the worst is the non-destructive click targets and destructive click-targets are almost equal in proportion at this point.
For those that don't understand what I mean and haven't used Adium, the colored status indicators also double as close buttons for tabs.
Once we improve our direct connect and file transfer support (So that they work / work reliably), we'll open the tabs up for tracking images and other files.
That's good.
Don't get me wrong, your tab implementation is the best by far. I have never seen tabs this functional before.
Yes, a drawer/source list combination would handle that situation better than tabs (assuming the window was tall enough vertically).
Each (tabs vs source list) has its strength and weaknesses and any ideas on improving either are always welcome.
It's already there with Exposé.
I don't know why developers waste time reinventing the wheel or regressing the GUI (IMO, tabs are a regression in usability) when Apple provides an excellent and visual solution that allows you too see all your windows live.
Instead of spending weeks creating a tab system, just slap a big ol' buddy picture icon on conversation windows and the name of the contact in bold letters and Exposé will handle 1-12 conversations with ease.
The truncation is already pretty bad but the worst is the non-destructive click targets and destructive click-targets are almost equal in proportion at this point.
For those that don't understand what I mean and haven't used Adium, the colored status indicators also double as close buttons for tabs.
For those of you that haven't used Adium, please be aware that you can only close the active tab (In the default configuration), so this is not an issue
More commonly you'll find yourself not clicking, but navigating tabs using the keyboard shortcuts since they are very convenient to hit with your hands already on the keyboard.
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
It's already there with Exposé.
I don't know why developers waste time reinventing the wheel or regressing the GUI (IMO, tabs are a regression in usability) when Apple provides an excellent and visual solution that allows you too see all your windows live.
Read my posts, I've already explain the benefits of tabs over expose And apparently Apple agrees if they've decided to add tabs to iChat.
For those of you that haven't used Adium, please be aware that you can only close the active tab (In the default configuration), so this is not an issue
Heh...my apology. I just noticed that only the active tab can be closed.
Read my posts, I've already explain the benefits of tabs over expose And apparently Apple agrees if they've decided to add tabs to iChat.
I'm actually curious to see how it's going to work...especially since iChat does video and audio chats. Somehow I think it's a feature that will be dropped before it shows up in any build.
To me, tabs play a role in grouping information together.
The natural progression for tabs is for them to exist in the window manager, as a way of grouping windows together.
I havent worked out the exact UI yet, but something like drag a window title onto another window title and the two windows will dock together as tabs. You can then combine any set of windows together into a group. You can also untab windows and reorder them.
Drag and drop onto tabs should bring them forward. I just tested dragging some text between windows ( something I very rarely do ) and Panther fails to bring windows to the front, which is broken.
Another natural extension is having windows dock their edges together. When you minimise one, the whole dock structure minimises, etc.
I guess I dont think the tabs should be a UI widget, they should be a window manager tool.
Instead of spending weeks creating a tab system, just slap a big ol' buddy picture icon on conversation windows and the name of the contact in bold letters and Exposé will handle 1-12 conversations with ease.
oh HEY...
There's an idea.
I haven't dealt with that end of the app pipeline lately, but does Expose trigger any sort of event to apps to let them know that it's been activated?
You could slap a huge buddy icon across the window, at say 50% translucency, and then remove it when Expose goes off. Expose handles the rest, and you avoid much of the problem of not being able to identify text windows.
Take the idea of tabs, and abstract it out to window docking, and *now* you have something worth investigating.
I agree. However, while grouping windows (after all, isn't that all a tabbed set of windows it?), we might as well be able to group windows from several different apps together rather than a single app. And then, windows have different sizes and shapes when they come from different apps, so maybe we should just leave them be their own, but keep the group together. In fact, this is sounding more like virtual desktops now....
I agree. However, while grouping windows (after all, isn't that all a tabbed set of windows it?), we might as well be able to group windows from several different apps together rather than a single app. And then, windows have different sizes and shapes when they come from different apps, so maybe we should just leave them be their own, but keep the group together. In fact, this is sounding more like virtual desktops now....
And how would you manage windows on a virtual desktop?
Window cycling and Expose. We come full circle.
I would actually love to see window groupings across apps based on task. That's an idea worth pursuing. Grouping *within* an app then becomes a sub-idea of that, and you get it for free.
Comments
Originally posted by resimada
If you really want me to... (Keep in mind I am referring to tabs in an IM client - one of the topics in this thread - not the proliferation of tabs into apps where they do not solve a particular need, which I am against).
Fair enough. Above gedanken experiment does not apply to this topic then, although it still holds in my mind for the illustration of the inelegance of tabs in general.
Actually you can, using a bar of tabs with simple icons on them.
Not to be persnickety, but how does a simple icon show *MORE* state than actually showing the *content of the window*?? You've abstracted the content into a set of icons, and it shows more state? Er... It may be quicker to glance at and see change indicators, but it can't be showing *more* state.
No, I do not. I mean the simplification of application interfaces by moving away from multiple windows. The source list in iTunes, the account drawer in mail, the tabs in safari, the source list in iPhoto. Interfaces simplified into a single window (for great benefit!) by using some sort of tab or source list control.
But chats aren't sources or destinations. They aren't collections, or sets, or libraries. They are documents, for lack of a better analogy.
Tabs are not a hack, and tabs in an IM client work in addition to the window management system, they are not meant to replace it.
But they do actually replace it, by taking over the window management. N windows become 1 with N subwindows... that's the very definition of taking over management of the content.
Tabs (or a source list in a drawer) are used in an IM client to simplify the interface by keeping related information together in an organized fashion in a common place. Tabs are not a "throwback".
They are a throwback on the Mac in that they are looking for a problem to solve that is different than their original purpose on other systems.
I see an IM client as being like a text editor, but the documents are shared. I would never *dream* of using a text editor that was tabbed! Would you?
For one thing, tabs (in many implementations) break drag and drop between documents. Ouch. Big no-no.
Tabs offer many advantages over Cmd-`, I've already stated them in my previous reply.
And they have many drawbacks as well, not the least of which is that they don't scale well, they don't work with many app content, and most implementations break drag-and-drop. I mean come on, that last one has got to be a biggie. You (generic programmer, not you in particular) just broke one the most *fundamental* UI elements, and it's not a hack? Hmmm.
Without tabs, there are many conversation windows on my screen (clutter). With tabs, there is a common conversation window on my screen that holds all my conversations (organization). Did I explain it more clearly that time? [/B]
Yes, you did, but no more convincingly, sorry. I see why some people like them... but I refuse to accede that they are a general solution widget. The original problem they were designed to solve simply isn't an issue on the Mac.
Edit: Just saw your above reply... fair enough, you're limiting it to just the IM client, and that's it. I think at that point, it becomes merely an issue of personal taste, and we can agree to disagree?
Edit #2: Just saw your *below* reply... good to see your implementation does it right.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Adam, let me know when your tabs allow drag and drop of text clippings or images.
Drag a clipping or image onto a tab in Adium and it will bring that tab forward.
Have you even tried tabs before bashing them?
Originally posted by Kickaha
Not to be persnickety, but how does a simple icon show *MORE* state than actually showing the *content of the window*??
The key word here is state. A simple icon can quickly show me which of my contacts are typing or have unviewed messages, and do not require me to stop what I'm doing (by hitting expose and looking all over the screen at the various windows) to see this information.
Originally posted by Kickaha
But chats aren't sources or destinations.
A chat is communication between a source and a destination.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Yes, you did, but no more convincingly, sorry. I see why some people like them... but I refuse to accede that they are a general solution widget.
Who is asking you to accede on that point?
Originally posted by Kickaha
Actually, as long as you don't move the windows, Expose *does* put them right back where they were the last time you invoked it.
This is not true, unless you consider moving a changing window focus to be moving.
I just opened a bunch of windows, and if I used cmd~ to change focus before I used expose, the window positions in expose changed. If I reduced the number of windows to four, expose still changed window position, but was consistent in which quadrant it located each window.
Originally posted by resimada
The key word here is state. A simple icon can quickly show me which of my contacts are typing or have unviewed messages, and do not require me to stop what I'm doing (by hitting expose and looking all over the screen at the various windows) to see this information.
Right. It can show abstraction or simplification of relevant state, but does not show *more* state. I think we're in agreement here, with a slight issue of terminology muddying the water.
A chat is communication between a source and a destination.
...
Oh come now. That's just...
...
Please tell me that was an attempt at humor.
Who is asking you to accede on that point?
In this thread, you are not. In previous threads, the battle has been between those of us who tried to point out that tabs are not the end all and be all of UI design, and the folks who thought every app would benefit from them. And it was FRICKING ANNOYING. *pant pant pant*
Originally posted by resimada
Without tabs, there are many conversation windows on my screen (clutter). With tabs, there is a common conversation window on my screen that holds all my conversations (organization). Did I explain it more clearly that time?
Why organize highly dynamic objects such as chat conversations?
I can understand iTunes sources and Mail mailboxes which stay put and hardly change...but chat conversations that come and go don't need organization.
Originally posted by resimada
Drag a clipping or image onto a tab in Adium and it will bring that tab forward.
Have you even tried tabs before bashing them?
This certainly is not working in b7.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Please tell me that was an attempt at humor.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
This certainly is not working in b7.
Ah, you are correct. We only have it enabled for dragging of text at the moment (Try selecting some text from within the message view and dragging it to another tab).
Once we improve our direct connect and file transfer support (So that they work / work reliably), we'll open the tabs up for tracking images and other files.
The truncation is already pretty bad but the worst is the non-destructive click targets and destructive click-targets are almost equal in proportion at this point.
For those that don't understand what I mean and haven't used Adium, the colored status indicators also double as close buttons for tabs.
Originally posted by resimada
Once we improve our direct connect and file transfer support (So that they work / work reliably), we'll open the tabs up for tracking images and other files.
That's good.
Don't get me wrong, your tab implementation is the best by far. I have never seen tabs this functional before.
But they've just lost purpose when I got Panther.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Anyways here's what 9 conversations in a window the same size as the windows in the Exposé screenshot on page 2 looks like with tabs.
Yes, a drawer/source list combination would handle that situation better than tabs (assuming the window was tall enough vertically).
Each (tabs vs source list) has its strength and weaknesses and any ideas on improving either are always welcome.
Originally posted by resimada
Yes, a drawer/source list combination would handle that situation better than tabs (assuming the window was tall enough vertically).
Each (tabs vs source list) has its strength and weaknesses and any ideas on improving either are always welcome.
It's already there with Exposé.
I don't know why developers waste time reinventing the wheel or regressing the GUI (IMO, tabs are a regression in usability) when Apple provides an excellent and visual solution that allows you too see all your windows live.
Instead of spending weeks creating a tab system, just slap a big ol' buddy picture icon on conversation windows and the name of the contact in bold letters and Exposé will handle 1-12 conversations with ease.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
The truncation is already pretty bad but the worst is the non-destructive click targets and destructive click-targets are almost equal in proportion at this point.
For those that don't understand what I mean and haven't used Adium, the colored status indicators also double as close buttons for tabs.
For those of you that haven't used Adium, please be aware that you can only close the active tab (In the default configuration), so this is not an issue
More commonly you'll find yourself not clicking, but navigating tabs using the keyboard shortcuts since they are very convenient to hit with your hands already on the keyboard.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
It's already there with Exposé.
I don't know why developers waste time reinventing the wheel or regressing the GUI (IMO, tabs are a regression in usability) when Apple provides an excellent and visual solution that allows you too see all your windows live.
Read my posts, I've already explain the benefits of tabs over expose
Originally posted by resimada
For those of you that haven't used Adium, please be aware that you can only close the active tab (In the default configuration), so this is not an issue
Heh...my apology. I just noticed that only the active tab can be closed.
Originally posted by resimada
Read my posts, I've already explain the benefits of tabs over expose
I'm actually curious to see how it's going to work...especially since iChat does video and audio chats. Somehow I think it's a feature that will be dropped before it shows up in any build.
The natural progression for tabs is for them to exist in the window manager, as a way of grouping windows together.
I havent worked out the exact UI yet, but something like drag a window title onto another window title and the two windows will dock together as tabs. You can then combine any set of windows together into a group. You can also untab windows and reorder them.
Drag and drop onto tabs should bring them forward. I just tested dragging some text between windows ( something I very rarely do ) and Panther fails to bring windows to the front, which is broken.
Another natural extension is having windows dock their edges together. When you minimise one, the whole dock structure minimises, etc.
I guess I dont think the tabs should be a UI widget, they should be a window manager tool.
Originally posted by mmmpie
I guess I dont think the tabs should be a UI widget, they should be a window manager tool.
BING BING BING
Because that's precisely what they ARE.
Thank you.
Take the idea of tabs, and abstract it out to window docking, and *now* you have something worth investigating.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Instead of spending weeks creating a tab system, just slap a big ol' buddy picture icon on conversation windows and the name of the contact in bold letters and Exposé will handle 1-12 conversations with ease.
oh HEY...
There's an idea.
I haven't dealt with that end of the app pipeline lately, but does Expose trigger any sort of event to apps to let them know that it's been activated?
You could slap a huge buddy icon across the window, at say 50% translucency, and then remove it when Expose goes off. Expose handles the rest, and you avoid much of the problem of not being able to identify text windows.
Hmmmm....
Originally posted by Kickaha
BING BING BING
Because that's precisely what they ARE.
Thank you.
Take the idea of tabs, and abstract it out to window docking, and *now* you have something worth investigating.
I agree. However, while grouping windows (after all, isn't that all a tabbed set of windows it?), we might as well be able to group windows from several different apps together rather than a single app. And then, windows have different sizes and shapes when they come from different apps, so maybe we should just leave them be their own, but keep the group together. In fact, this is sounding more like virtual desktops now....
Originally posted by rrabu
I agree. However, while grouping windows (after all, isn't that all a tabbed set of windows it?), we might as well be able to group windows from several different apps together rather than a single app. And then, windows have different sizes and shapes when they come from different apps, so maybe we should just leave them be their own, but keep the group together. In fact, this is sounding more like virtual desktops now....
And how would you manage windows on a virtual desktop?
Window cycling and Expose. We come full circle.
I would actually love to see window groupings across apps based on task. That's an idea worth pursuing. Grouping *within* an app then becomes a sub-idea of that, and you get it for free.