It's ironic that a descriptive, non-derogatory term, which is actually more accurate, is somehow politically incorrect. Also, I don't believe that activists for certain groups have the right to suddenly proclaim a new and ambiguous name for themselves, and then rudely expect everyone to bend to their will.
Every (youngish) Asian person I know uses "Asian", so I don't think it's s random and sudden change. I suspect, and maybe I'll ask people about this, that "Oriental" carries a lot of baggage with it about how Asians used to be treated in the US. Everything from Chinese immigration quotas to coolie labor to WWII internment. Sort of like "negro". It used to be a more-or-less neutral, objective term, but when it was in common usage it got associated with all kinds of bad things. So we sweep it into the dustbin and use a new, more-or-less neutral term which doesn't (yet) carry any baggage.
Older folks, oldish boomers on up, still use Oriental, because that's how it was in their day. Since they don't know any better, using it only makes them seem old, not rude.
I agree, though, that we could use a better generic term for sub-continenters.
I know I'll get slammed for being "knee jerk PC" , but you try going around spouting off about "orientals" in California (where it happens a great many people of Pacific Rim ancestry live), and I assure you you will get your ass kicked. Vietnamese kids are mean motherfuckers.
To our ears, "oriental" has about the same currency as "Negro". Perhaps someone would like to explain how it's perfectly OK to refer to African Americans as "Negroes" because, you know, it's the term you prefer, and the group in question is just being pointlessly prickly by expecting you to update your terminology. I mean, why should they have any say in it, right?
Where I live there are large populations of people hailing from Laos, Cambodia, Japan, China, Korea, Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, and whoever I forget. When I hear the self satisfied ignorance from some of you kids, I thank the good lord I live in California, with people from all over the world, so I can dine on their delicious foodstuffs and get exposed to something other than white bread tech geek triumphalism.
If an Oriental gang wants to beat me up because that's the only thing they have going for them, then so be it. The whole "Asian-empowerment" phase right now is no different than the black-power or white-power phases. They're all racist, except that very few Orientals are foolish enough to lose sleep over it.
The dumbest thing I heard all day is the line "They believe 'Oriental' objectifies them." If we live in a society where I have to lie to be polite, I'm going to rebel. Quite frankly, I'm sick of all this name stuff. I don't like it when people are afraid to point out someone's skin color, especially when a guy comes over to ask you where he can find someone. "Black guy in the red shirt." That's concise, objective, and really doesn't harm anyone. If you want to dwell on your ethnic makeup as an extremely important qualification, then you're just like so many of the white folks from the old south, to whom their livelihood was based only on the fact that they were white.
Relax, chillin'! From my experience... oh, just relax you Cali PC bleeding heart guilt sponges. We're not being very serious in here, and I don't think there's much of a race issue with us or with asians here (meaning in the US at least). Are there exceptions to that? Sure, there are exceptions. But my acquaintances know when I'm not being serious, it's not hard to tell. I think everyone else here knows what the score is regarding who is trying to be insulting and who isn't anyway.
...and there a LOT worse things to say about someone than calling them "oriental."
I don't know about the whole objectification thing, but going by a historic definition, "oriental" is even less accurate than "Asian."
Oriental and occidental where orignally mariner's terms. Oriental referred to the direction of the rising sun (east), and occidental to the direction of the setting sun (west).
Asia is only in the direction of the orient if you're standing in Europe. If you're in North America, Europe is the "orient" and Asia the "occident."
Granted, modern usage has generally morphed these terms to refer to the "eastern" and "western" hemispheres of the globe (again, east and west from a Euro-centric perspective), but it's still good to know where these terms come from.
No, really, I'm not kiddin', "oriental" is pretty much "negro" for anybody who lives in hailing distance of asian-americans.
Are you seriously going to argue that "negro" is just fine? I'm using that example because I think that most of you have gotten the news on that one.
Spline, calling a group of people what they want to be called doesn't seem like much of an imposition...
You know what? I take it back. I beg ya'll to come out to California, Seattle, or NY, or any metro area with a substantial asian-american population, and by all means stick to your guns.
That's all the education you'll ever need. You might want to program 911 into your cell phones first.
*sigh* You have no sense of humor. Lighten up. It's a friggin joke, the whole thing.
The whole reason it's become so offensive is rooted in stupidity and ignorance. The fact that people take such a term so seriously is ridiculous too. I'm not denying that it's considered inappropriate. [edited again]
I guess what I'm trying to say is that these racist connotations are preposterous, and that's why it's funny. Who honestly can mean to be racist and derogatory when they say "oriental"? It's ridiculous! If we always take these things so seriously, and let our words get retired because people at one time didn't like asians, then we've lost a lot. We'll never get over racism that way because people will use these words to poen up old wounds. I'd rather make light of such ideas because they don't deserve to be taken seriously. Anyway, no one meant oirental here like that, and the thread was a farce on that preposterous idea until you showed up.
*sigh* You have no sense of humor. Lighten up. It's a friggin joke, the whole thing.
The whole reason it's become so offensive is rooted in stupidity and ignorance. The fact that people take such a term so seriously is ridiculous too. I'm not denying that it's considered inappropriate. [edited again]
I guess what I'm trying to say is that these racist connotations are preposterous, and that's why it's funny. Who honestly can mean to be racist and derogatory when they say "oriental"? It's ridiculous! If we always take these things so seriously, and let our words get retired because people at one time didn't like asians, then we've lost a lot. We'll never get over racism that way because people will use these words to poen up old wounds. I'd rather make light of such ideas because they don't deserve to be taken seriously. Anyway, no one meant oirental here like that, and the thread was a farce on that preposterous idea until you showed up.
Yeah, just a bunch of white guys hangin out shootin the breeze, havin some fun. Anybody gets offended, it's their problem, they should learn to lighten up.
Read my lips. "Oriental" is deeply offensive to asian-americans. You don't get to tell a population of Americans that they're wrong about that. Pretending to be just kidding doesn't cut it, anymore than going on about "spics" would be OK if you did a lot of laughing. Just because you're too insular to know any better doesn't change that.
Who honestly can mean to be racist and derogatory when they say "oriental"?
You really have no idea how ignorant that is, do you?
You sound like somebody's 85 year old cracker grandfather wondering about all the fuss when he refers to "coloreds". "What?" he says. "Don't mean no offense, I personally think some of them are good workers".
Yeah, just a bunch of white guys hangin out shootin the breeze, havin some fun. Anybody gets offended, it's their problem, they should learn to lighten up.
Read my lips. "Oriental" is deeply offensive to asian-americans. Pretending to be just kidding doesn't cut it, anymore than going on about "spics" would
be OK. Just because you're too insular to know any better doesn't change that.
Who honestly can mean to be racist and derogatory when they say "oriental"?
You really have no idea how ignorant that is, do you?
You sound like somebody's 85 year old cracker grandfather wondering about all the fuss when he refers to "coloreds". "What?" he says. "Don't mean no offense, I personally think some of them are good workers".
So I guess "chinks" and "gooks" and "slant-eye" are out of the question, then?
Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Oriental?meaning ?eastern??is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.
Comments
We rule.
Originally posted by murbot
I'd bang the business suit version of her.
The business suit version is a 12" posable action figure. But, hey, if that's what you're into...
Originally posted by dfiler
It's ironic that a descriptive, non-derogatory term, which is actually more accurate, is somehow politically incorrect. Also, I don't believe that activists for certain groups have the right to suddenly proclaim a new and ambiguous name for themselves, and then rudely expect everyone to bend to their will.
Every (youngish) Asian person I know uses "Asian", so I don't think it's s random and sudden change. I suspect, and maybe I'll ask people about this, that "Oriental" carries a lot of baggage with it about how Asians used to be treated in the US. Everything from Chinese immigration quotas to coolie labor to WWII internment. Sort of like "negro". It used to be a more-or-less neutral, objective term, but when it was in common usage it got associated with all kinds of bad things. So we sweep it into the dustbin and use a new, more-or-less neutral term which doesn't (yet) carry any baggage.
Older folks, oldish boomers on up, still use Oriental, because that's how it was in their day. Since they don't know any better, using it only makes them seem old, not rude.
I agree, though, that we could use a better generic term for sub-continenters.
Originally posted by shetline
The business suit version is a 12" posable action figure. But, hey, if that's what you're into...
Oh yeah? I'll show her a 12" posable action figure.
Well, I can bang her twice I guess.
Originally posted by murbot
Oh yeah? I'll show her a 12" posable action figure.
Well, I can bang her twice I guess.
Snow brother too boku.
Originally posted by shetline
The business suit version is a 12" posable action figure. But, hey, if that's what you're into...
No that's "asian" Barbie.
I know I'll get slammed for being "knee jerk PC" , but you try going around spouting off about "orientals" in California (where it happens a great many people of Pacific Rim ancestry live), and I assure you you will get your ass kicked. Vietnamese kids are mean motherfuckers.
To our ears, "oriental" has about the same currency as "Negro". Perhaps someone would like to explain how it's perfectly OK to refer to African Americans as "Negroes" because, you know, it's the term you prefer, and the group in question is just being pointlessly prickly by expecting you to update your terminology. I mean, why should they have any say in it, right?
Where I live there are large populations of people hailing from Laos, Cambodia, Japan, China, Korea, Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, and whoever I forget. When I hear the self satisfied ignorance from some of you kids, I thank the good lord I live in California, with people from all over the world, so I can dine on their delicious foodstuffs and get exposed to something other than white bread tech geek triumphalism.
Originally posted by addabox
Godamighty, it's like Selma '65 in here.
I know I'll get slammed for being "knee jerk PC"
If an Oriental gang wants to beat me up because that's the only thing they have going for them, then so be it. The whole "Asian-empowerment" phase right now is no different than the black-power or white-power phases. They're all racist, except that very few Orientals are foolish enough to lose sleep over it.
The dumbest thing I heard all day is the line "They believe 'Oriental' objectifies them." If we live in a society where I have to lie to be polite, I'm going to rebel. Quite frankly, I'm sick of all this name stuff. I don't like it when people are afraid to point out someone's skin color, especially when a guy comes over to ask you where he can find someone. "Black guy in the red shirt." That's concise, objective, and really doesn't harm anyone. If you want to dwell on your ethnic makeup as an extremely important qualification, then you're just like so many of the white folks from the old south, to whom their livelihood was based only on the fact that they were white.
...and there a LOT worse things to say about someone than calling them "oriental."
Oriental and occidental where orignally mariner's terms. Oriental referred to the direction of the rising sun (east), and occidental to the direction of the setting sun (west).
Asia is only in the direction of the orient if you're standing in Europe. If you're in North America, Europe is the "orient" and Asia the "occident."
Granted, modern usage has generally morphed these terms to refer to the "eastern" and "western" hemispheres of the globe (again, east and west from a Euro-centric perspective), but it's still good to know where these terms come from.
Are you seriously going to argue that "negro" is just fine? I'm using that example because I think that most of you have gotten the news on that one.
Spline, calling a group of people what they want to be called doesn't seem like much of an imposition...
You know what? I take it back. I beg ya'll to come out to California, Seattle, or NY, or any metro area with a substantial asian-american population, and by all means stick to your guns.
That's all the education you'll ever need. You might want to program 911 into your cell phones first.
The whole reason it's become so offensive is rooted in stupidity and ignorance. The fact that people take such a term so seriously is ridiculous too. I'm not denying that it's considered inappropriate. [edited again]
I guess what I'm trying to say is that these racist connotations are preposterous, and that's why it's funny. Who honestly can mean to be racist and derogatory when they say "oriental"? It's ridiculous! If we always take these things so seriously, and let our words get retired because people at one time didn't like asians, then we've lost a lot. We'll never get over racism that way because people will use these words to poen up old wounds. I'd rather make light of such ideas because they don't deserve to be taken seriously. Anyway, no one meant oirental here like that, and the thread was a farce on that preposterous idea until you showed up.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
*sigh* You have no sense of humor.
The whole reason it's become so offensive is rooted in stupidity and ignorance. The fact that people take such a term so seriously is ridiculous too. I'm not denying that it's considered inappropriate. [edited again]
I guess what I'm trying to say is that these racist connotations are preposterous, and that's why it's funny. Who honestly can mean to be racist and derogatory when they say "oriental"? It's ridiculous! If we always take these things so seriously, and let our words get retired because people at one time didn't like asians, then we've lost a lot. We'll never get over racism that way because people will use these words to poen up old wounds. I'd rather make light of such ideas because they don't deserve to be taken seriously. Anyway, no one meant oirental here like that, and the thread was a farce on that preposterous idea until you showed up.
Yeah, just a bunch of white guys hangin out shootin the breeze, havin some fun. Anybody gets offended, it's their problem, they should learn to lighten up.
Read my lips. "Oriental" is deeply offensive to asian-americans. You don't get to tell a population of Americans that they're wrong about that. Pretending to be just kidding doesn't cut it, anymore than going on about "spics" would be OK if you did a lot of laughing. Just because you're too insular to know any better doesn't change that.
Who honestly can mean to be racist and derogatory when they say "oriental"?
You really have no idea how ignorant that is, do you?
You sound like somebody's 85 year old cracker grandfather wondering about all the fuss when he refers to "coloreds". "What?" he says. "Don't mean no offense, I personally think some of them are good workers".
Originally posted by addabox
Yeah, just a bunch of white guys hangin out shootin the breeze, havin some fun. Anybody gets offended, it's their problem, they should learn to lighten up.
Read my lips. "Oriental" is deeply offensive to asian-americans. Pretending to be just kidding doesn't cut it, anymore than going on about "spics" would
be OK. Just because you're too insular to know any better doesn't change that.
Who honestly can mean to be racist and derogatory when they say "oriental"?
You really have no idea how ignorant that is, do you?
You sound like somebody's 85 year old cracker grandfather wondering about all the fuss when he refers to "coloreds". "What?" he says. "Don't mean no offense, I personally think some of them are good workers".
So I guess "chinks" and "gooks" and "slant-eye" are out of the question, then?
I can hear it now:
"You no funny wound eye cwacker!"
Sorry.
Originally posted by addabox
No, really, I'm not kiddin', "oriental" is pretty much "negro" for anybody who lives in hailing distance of asian-americans.
The word doesn't seem to bother anyone when refering to, say, a salad. Oriental Chicken Salad. Doesn't seem to cause any controversy.
On the other hand, I can imagine some odd reactions to a restaurant menu which featured a Negro Chicken Salad.
Just a thought.
Originally posted by shetline
The word doesn't seem to bother anyone when refering to, say, a salad. Oriental Chicken Salad. Doesn't seem to cause any controversy.
On the other hand, I can imagine some odd reactions to a restaurant menu which featured a Negro Chicken Salad.
Just a thought.
Okey doke, I guess we're ahead of the curve here for areas without much of an asian-american population.
But you might want to educate yourselves a bit:
Washington state bans the "O" word.
Let's see, many asian-americans in Washington? Yep.
The American Heritage dictionary is somewhat less vehement:
Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Oriental?meaning ?eastern??is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.
Whatever. Ya'll get it when you have to.
Originally posted by addabox
Okey doke, I guess we're ahead of the curve here for areas without much of an asian-american population.
I wasn't arguing against your point by the way. I just felt like saying something goofy without adding a smiley