Originally posted by kim kap sol Apple just needs to optimize window resizing algorithms...Quartz 2D Extreme will most likely do little. [/B]
Sorry, but you are just wrong.
In Panther, much of CoreGraphics 2D is not hardware accelerated. In Tiger this will change.
If you have access to the WWDC 2004 DVD content check out the Quartz-related sessions. There's all kinds of stuff in there how Tiger now uses hw acc for many many more 2D operations than Panther.
Some operations, like drawing single lines, are much faster. In fact, many operations are faster.
If you don't think this will pay off with faster window resizing then you're...well pick your own insulting word.
Originally posted by Kickaha Remember also that Quartz Extreme had a more limited list of supported cards in the developer previews than in the final release. [/B]
First.... Core Image probably will not be compatible with older graphics cards simply because of the lack of programmable shaders (as I understand it). It's not a matter of optimizing something on the client side -- the cards just can't jump through the hoops that Core Image will present.
But... lack of Core Image support does not necessarily mean that nothing 2D can be hw acc. I believe portions of 2D CG are will be hw acc anytime the machine is compatible with Quartz Extreme.
Again, check out the WWDC DVDs. This stuff is all discussed in detail.
Well, I guess I'll get this started- I can't believe my new iBook is already going to be left behind (by virtue of its ATI 9200 GPU)! (a crybaby smiley here would have been more applicable, if I had access to one) Seriously though, how can ATI not have programmable pixel shaders since the 9xxx series??? Damn you, ATI- get wit the program already! \
There's no 'believe' about it. Q2DE will be placing more graphics rendering onto the GPU. But please don't put words in my mouth regarding the necessary hardware.
How about we take a look at the requirements for CoreImage? Now, CoreImage and Q2DE are two quite different technologies, but CI is, IMO, the more processor intensive of the two. In that respect, this should be a more restrictive list than for Q2DE.
Got that list of cards supporting CoreImage handy, do you?
Yeah, that 17-inch iMac... wow, what a high-end machine... and man, nobody could ever be complaining about a GPU *that* advanced!
Remember also that Quartz Extreme had a more limited list of supported cards in the developer previews than in the final release.
Stop making it sound like everyone is going to be able to benefit from Quartz 2D Extreme. Everyone IS NOT going to benefit. You need the recently released iMac G5 or the last PowerBook lineup or a PowerMac released in the last year and a half to get the benefits of Quartz 2D Extreme.
Really, raise your hand if you've got specs that include a CoreImage-ready graphics card.
Kickaha...I don't think you'll find any G3 computer with a graphics card that meets the specs or any G4 under 1GHz. Hell, like I said, the new iBooks aren't even ready for Quartz 2D Extreme.
Well, I guess I'll get this started- I can't believe my new iBook is already going to be left behind (by virtue of its ATI 9200 GPU)! (a crybaby smiley here would have been more applicable, if I had access to one) Seriously though, how can ATI not have programmable pixel shaders since the 9xxx series??? Damn you, ATI- get wit the program already! \
It's not like you won't be able to use Tiger or something.
It's not like you won't be able to use Tiger or something.
No but he won't get smooth window resizing...correct me if I'm wrong but the thread is called 'Quartz 2D Extreme' and discussing who's going to be disappointed and left out and who's not when it comes to smooth window resizing .
So far, it seems only those with a graphics card that is less than a year and a half old will benefit from Quartz 2D Extreme. And thus, there will be much complaining even after Tiger ships.
I'm not complaining though...I'm saying this matter of factly. I will have a graphics card that supports all the graphical goodness when Tiger finally ships just to set the record straight. But, matter of factly, there will be complaining from people.
There is *always* whining when something new comes out that requires newer hardware than someone currently owns.
And please, kim, I am not in any way trying to assert that everyone will be able to use CoreImage or Q2DE. Not even close. I am, however, trying to offset your doom and gloom of "If it doesn't in all cases, what's the point?" I mean come on, man. That's just asinine.
And bully for you that you're going to be CI/Q2DE ready. I'm not. But I also am not going to whine about it like a crybaby. Nor am I going to bitch at Apple for putting more solid technology in the hands of developers, and hence, in the hands of users.
So stop spreading FUD in here. Especially when you're just flat out technically wrong in the first place.
I don't see what is so bad about releasing an OS that only all of its features work on the currently shipping products. As long as when a machine ships with tiger on it that machine can use all its features there is no reason to complain.
As long as Tiger will install on my older machines I will consider it an upgrade.
I don't see what is so bad about releasing an OS that only all of its features work on the currently shipping products. As long as when a machine ships with tiger on it that machine can use all its features there is no reason to complain.
As long as Tiger will install on my older machines I will consider it an upgrade.
Nothing bad about it. Just saying that Quartz 2D Extreme is not a savior to everyone's woes...in fact, most people will not get any benefits from Q2DE. Those that do, already have the horsepower and bandwidth to handle window resizing pretty well. Q2DE might just step it up a notch and maybe even be overkill for the lucky G5 owners...but who knows.
Nothing bad about it. Just saying that Quartz 2D Extreme is not a savior to everyone's woes...in fact, most people will not get any benefits from Q2DE.
This is clearly a glass-half-empty statement.
I'm pretty sure you mean that "Quartz 2D Extreme is not an IMMEDIATE savior to everyone's woes..."
After all, you're the one who keeps asking for a how of hands of how many people will benefit. I for one will, and bought my machine around a year ago.
Now, for a more apropos poll: How many people will NEVER upgrade their Macintosh to a current model. That is the number of people who will NOT benefit from this.
I'm pretty sure you mean that "Quartz 2D Extreme is not an IMMEDIATE savior to everyone's woes..."
After all, you're the one who keeps asking for a how of hands of how many people will benefit. I for one will, and bought my machine around a year ago.
Now, for a more apropos poll: How many people will NEVER upgrade their Macintosh to a current model. That is the number of people who will NOT benefit from this.
I don't think you're understanding what's going on here...G5s don't have many window resizing problems. So simply upgrading to a G5 computer or a dual-CPU computer is just as good an upgrade as Quartz 2D Extreme will be (maybe)...upgrading always solves performance problems. That's not the question here.
The thread is called 'Quartz 2D Extreme.' Not 'Dual G5s PowerMacs - Will they solve my window resizing problems'.
People want to have smooth window resizing with their CURRENT hardware. That's not going to be possible in most cases.
The bitching will continue...that's all I'm saying. Post a sticky note with laymen explanations and we won't get so much bitching and people will actually learn something.
I don't care if it is a small percentage. It shouldn't be a problem in the first place (as it hasn't been in Windows since what, like the late 1990's?). To premise that a 2003/4 level videocard is a requirement to finally get this issue licked is ridiculous. Hell, give me a blank rectangle feedback if that is what it takes to get instantaneous, hardware-assisted window resizing. I don't care if it is "ugly" for a moment. I just want it to be painless.
As long as some users insist on complaining, window-resizing will never be painless.
Tom, you nailed it. CoreImage could run on 90% of the machines sold in the last three years, and some folks would *STILL* take the opportunity to do the song and dance about how Apple was 'screwing' over the remaining 10%.
CoreImage and Q2DE look to be *fabulous* technologies that will scale nicely along a gamut of cards. Worst case scenario: they won't run on your hardware... but the older techologies still will. Woo.
And frankly, kks, the thread *is* named 'Quartz 2D Extreme' not 'kim kap sol's rant about window resizing'. Lay off. You were wrong in the first place from a technical standpoint, and now you're making assertions regarding dual G5 vs. Quartz 2D Extreme that you simply can't back up, or even for that matter, have knowledge about since CI and Q2DE haven't shipped yet.
And frankly, kks, the thread *is* named 'Quartz 2D Extreme' not 'kim kap sol's rant about window resizing'. Lay off. You were wrong in the first place from a technical standpoint, and now you're making assertions regarding dual G5 vs. Quartz 2D Extreme that you simply can't back up, or even for that matter, have knowledge about since CI and Q2DE haven't shipped yet.
Jeez.
So how would you know if it works like you envision it. There are no demos anywhere and its not enabled in the WWDC build apparently.
There is speculation built on a foundation of knowing how the system currently works, reported improvement goals, and rough sketches of the implementation... and then there are speculations pulled out of thin air.
I'll let you decide which one of us is dealing with which.
There is speculation built on a foundation of knowing how the system currently works, reported improvement goals, and rough sketches of the implementation... and then there are speculations pulled out of thin air.
I'll let you decide which one of us is dealing with which.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
I'm sure someone will find a way to get Q2DE to work on the unsupported graphic cards..... if not fully, then particially working....
I have PM9600 with G4/800 PCI upgrade with flashed radeon 9100 pci card that run QE fine with some hack off course. Who said that you can't run Panther on the legacy PM9600......
I'm planing to upgrade to Tiger when i comes out. I"m sure my PM9600 will run fine or even better with new Tiger features and enhancements.....
We'll know for sure when it becomes available. BTW, speculating about future OS features are fun until someone starts getting emotional over a post.
Comments
Originally posted by kim kap sol Apple just needs to optimize window resizing algorithms...Quartz 2D Extreme will most likely do little. [/B]
Sorry, but you are just wrong.
In Panther, much of CoreGraphics 2D is not hardware accelerated. In Tiger this will change.
If you have access to the WWDC 2004 DVD content check out the Quartz-related sessions. There's all kinds of stuff in there how Tiger now uses hw acc for many many more 2D operations than Panther.
Some operations, like drawing single lines, are much faster. In fact, many operations are faster.
If you don't think this will pay off with faster window resizing then you're...well pick your own insulting word.
Bryan
Originally posted by Kickaha Remember also that Quartz Extreme had a more limited list of supported cards in the developer previews than in the final release. [/B]
First.... Core Image probably will not be compatible with older graphics cards simply because of the lack of programmable shaders (as I understand it). It's not a matter of optimizing something on the client side -- the cards just can't jump through the hoops that Core Image will present.
But... lack of Core Image support does not necessarily mean that nothing 2D can be hw acc. I believe portions of 2D CG are will be hw acc anytime the machine is compatible with Quartz Extreme.
Again, check out the WWDC DVDs. This stuff is all discussed in detail.
Originally posted by Kickaha
There's no 'believe' about it. Q2DE will be placing more graphics rendering onto the GPU. But please don't put words in my mouth regarding the necessary hardware.
How about we take a look at the requirements for CoreImage? Now, CoreImage and Q2DE are two quite different technologies, but CI is, IMO, the more processor intensive of the two. In that respect, this should be a more restrictive list than for Q2DE.
Got that list of cards supporting CoreImage handy, do you?
No?
Here, let me help: (from http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/core.html)
Yeah, that 17-inch iMac... wow, what a high-end machine... and man, nobody could ever be complaining about a GPU *that* advanced!
Remember also that Quartz Extreme had a more limited list of supported cards in the developer previews than in the final release.
Stop making it sound like everyone is going to be able to benefit from Quartz 2D Extreme. Everyone IS NOT going to benefit. You need the recently released iMac G5 or the last PowerBook lineup or a PowerMac released in the last year and a half to get the benefits of Quartz 2D Extreme.
Really, raise your hand if you've got specs that include a CoreImage-ready graphics card.
Kickaha...I don't think you'll find any G3 computer with a graphics card that meets the specs or any G4 under 1GHz. Hell, like I said, the new iBooks aren't even ready for Quartz 2D Extreme.
Originally posted by Randycat99
Well, I guess I'll get this started- I can't believe my new iBook is already going to be left behind (by virtue of its ATI 9200 GPU)!
It's not like you won't be able to use Tiger or something.
Originally posted by Placebo
It's not like you won't be able to use Tiger or something.
No but he won't get smooth window resizing...correct me if I'm wrong but the thread is called 'Quartz 2D Extreme' and discussing who's going to be disappointed and left out and who's not when it comes to smooth window resizing .
So far, it seems only those with a graphics card that is less than a year and a half old will benefit from Quartz 2D Extreme. And thus, there will be much complaining even after Tiger ships.
I'm not complaining though...I'm saying this matter of factly. I will have a graphics card that supports all the graphical goodness when Tiger finally ships just to set the record straight. But, matter of factly, there will be complaining from people.
There is *always* whining when something new comes out that requires newer hardware than someone currently owns.
And please, kim, I am not in any way trying to assert that everyone will be able to use CoreImage or Q2DE. Not even close. I am, however, trying to offset your doom and gloom of "If it doesn't in all cases, what's the point?" I mean come on, man. That's just asinine.
And bully for you that you're going to be CI/Q2DE ready. I'm not. But I also am not going to whine about it like a crybaby. Nor am I going to bitch at Apple for putting more solid technology in the hands of developers, and hence, in the hands of users.
So stop spreading FUD in here. Especially when you're just flat out technically wrong in the first place.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Quartz has nothing to do with slow window resizing...for fucks sake...how many times must it be explained.
Quartz has quite a lot to do with it. A speed boost in Quartz should result in smoother window resizing for most apps.
As long as Tiger will install on my older machines I will consider it an upgrade.
Originally posted by salmonstk
I don't see what is so bad about releasing an OS that only all of its features work on the currently shipping products. As long as when a machine ships with tiger on it that machine can use all its features there is no reason to complain.
As long as Tiger will install on my older machines I will consider it an upgrade.
Nothing bad about it. Just saying that Quartz 2D Extreme is not a savior to everyone's woes...in fact, most people will not get any benefits from Q2DE. Those that do, already have the horsepower and bandwidth to handle window resizing pretty well. Q2DE might just step it up a notch and maybe even be overkill for the lucky G5 owners...but who knows.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Nothing bad about it. Just saying that Quartz 2D Extreme is not a savior to everyone's woes...in fact, most people will not get any benefits from Q2DE.
This is clearly a glass-half-empty statement.
I'm pretty sure you mean that "Quartz 2D Extreme is not an IMMEDIATE savior to everyone's woes..."
After all, you're the one who keeps asking for a how of hands of how many people will benefit. I for one will, and bought my machine around a year ago.
Now, for a more apropos poll: How many people will NEVER upgrade their Macintosh to a current model. That is the number of people who will NOT benefit from this.
Originally posted by Tom Mornini
This is clearly a glass-half-empty statement.
I'm pretty sure you mean that "Quartz 2D Extreme is not an IMMEDIATE savior to everyone's woes..."
After all, you're the one who keeps asking for a how of hands of how many people will benefit. I for one will, and bought my machine around a year ago.
Now, for a more apropos poll: How many people will NEVER upgrade their Macintosh to a current model. That is the number of people who will NOT benefit from this.
I don't think you're understanding what's going on here...G5s don't have many window resizing problems. So simply upgrading to a G5 computer or a dual-CPU computer is just as good an upgrade as Quartz 2D Extreme will be (maybe)...upgrading always solves performance problems. That's not the question here.
The thread is called 'Quartz 2D Extreme.' Not 'Dual G5s PowerMacs - Will they solve my window resizing problems'.
People want to have smooth window resizing with their CURRENT hardware. That's not going to be possible in most cases.
The bitching will continue...that's all I'm saying. Post a sticky note with laymen explanations and we won't get so much bitching and people will actually learn something.
Tom, you nailed it. CoreImage could run on 90% of the machines sold in the last three years, and some folks would *STILL* take the opportunity to do the song and dance about how Apple was 'screwing' over the remaining 10%.
CoreImage and Q2DE look to be *fabulous* technologies that will scale nicely along a gamut of cards. Worst case scenario: they won't run on your hardware... but the older techologies still will. Woo.
And frankly, kks, the thread *is* named 'Quartz 2D Extreme' not 'kim kap sol's rant about window resizing'. Lay off. You were wrong in the first place from a technical standpoint, and now you're making assertions regarding dual G5 vs. Quartz 2D Extreme that you simply can't back up, or even for that matter, have knowledge about since CI and Q2DE haven't shipped yet.
Jeez.
Originally posted by Kickaha
And frankly, kks, the thread *is* named 'Quartz 2D Extreme' not 'kim kap sol's rant about window resizing'. Lay off. You were wrong in the first place from a technical standpoint, and now you're making assertions regarding dual G5 vs. Quartz 2D Extreme that you simply can't back up, or even for that matter, have knowledge about since CI and Q2DE haven't shipped yet.
Jeez.
So how would you know if it works like you envision it. There are no demos anywhere and its not enabled in the WWDC build apparently.
At this point everything is pure speculations.
I'll let you decide which one of us is dealing with which.
Originally posted by Kickaha
There is speculation built on a foundation of knowing how the system currently works, reported improvement goals, and rough sketches of the implementation... and then there are speculations pulled out of thin air.
I'll let you decide which one of us is dealing with which.
Still speculation no matter how you slice it.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
I have PM9600 with G4/800 PCI upgrade with flashed radeon 9100 pci card that run QE fine with some hack off course. Who said that you can't run Panther on the legacy PM9600......
I'm planing to upgrade to Tiger when i comes out. I"m sure my PM9600 will run fine or even better with new Tiger features and enhancements.....
We'll know for sure when it becomes available. BTW, speculating about future OS features are fun until someone starts getting emotional over a post.