Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Interesting but vastly misplaced. Do you want some corporate VP at Apple deciding which games you will and won't get? No.
What we really need are developer tools that are so slick for gaming that going OpenGL/OpenAL (largely X-platform IOW) and writing on the Mac is faster and cheaper, hence preferrable to writing on Windows with DX.
If the trouble for writing for your platform is 50% compared to the other platform, but the other platform has a 40x userbase, it is still what, 20x more cost efficient to develop for the other platform?
What could really benefit Apple (and I'm not sure this is feasible) is a framework as powerful as DirectX, but totally cross-platform, so development team gets two for the price of one. They would go for that.
Edit: I think Apple would also do well (and this is feasible!) to create and release *on BSD license* a versatile professional-class game engine for OS X, for amateur, semi-pro and pro developers to use how they wish. This could draw many people into creating indie games for OS X, and a good indie game culture would, IMO, be a way to compete with the other platforms without meeting them head on. Apple would reap profits simply by having all this activity on OS X, but they could also get their own back by participating in web distribution, running servers, they could have an "Apple Battle.net", all readymade and easily accessible from the developer standpoint.
Other than making OS X generally nice for developers, Apple can boost game development simply by getting more marketshare, and currently the way to make that happen is by offering more affordable computers. If they start porting games, that is rather like climbing a tree backwards. It undermines the few companies that *are* in the porting business, and Apple should want more companies like that.
I'd like to see Apple include a comprehensive set of cross-development tools geared towards games, perhaps even an automated DX>OGL shader converter that would cut dev time.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
What about Blender ( www.blender3d.org )? Doesn't Blender have a cross-platform game engine (OS X, Linux, Win)? If anything, why not add to a project that already exists.
I haven't tried making any games with Blender yet so I don't know how easy / difficult it is to build one.
Do you understand what OpenGL/OpenAL are??? If you did your first two thoughts were already answered. And proper dev tools could make the cross-dev more a 95-98% common for OGL/OAL apps, while making it easier and faster to do the main work under OS X. Pretty much killing the economics scaling arguments. It's actually not that far away except in perceptions, and that might be near impossible to change.
Yes, I understand what OpenGL and OpenAL are. What do you mean when you say "killing the economics scaling arguments"? The argument was that compatibility is the only way for a small platform to live, and it does not solve anything if you just make the native development easier, because the ROI is in any case better on a big platform. From the other things you wrote it would seem like you support my argument.
Quote:
Do you have any idea what goes into a game engine? How many tradeoffs, the level of effort. Didn't think so. That's not an economically viable alternative.
Actually, I know. Note that I said "general purpose". The idea is not to challenge Source in FPS engines, the idea is to put a pretty good engine and full toolset into the hands of people who'd like to do commercial or hobby projects that don't require the latest tech to succeed. I estimate fifteen man-years for initial version of the engine, tools, documentation and some demos. If there is a pre-existing project that fills the requirements or is suitable as a base, Apple could just throw its weight behind that.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
If you can produce, code and debug 95-98% cross platform code on OS X in 50-75% of the time due to better tools, then the scaling argument of where you code is broken.
Id did a lot of their development with NextStep machines,
Ive read about multiple game companies producing in house code on nextstep due to speed of development ( and recently too ). I think this speaks highly about the potential for OS X to penetrate this niche.
Apple regularly go through cycles of paying attention to games. I think gamesproket was the last really good attempt. OS X has been busy with more fundamental issues. Maybe with Tiger they will ramp up game support again.
I dont believe that Apple should port games. Apple has always had a strong policy of not supporting porting efforts financially. It has lots of bad side effects, for the specfici projects, and the market in general.
If Apple want games they need to produce better tools.
I also believe that Apple could act as a figure head for the market by producing their own original first party games, just like Nintendo does. They wouldnt need to make many, one or two a year, to have a real impact. They would demonstrate the feasability of the Mac market, and force the development of better tools. They might even be able to get shelf space in 'games' shops.
I also believe that Apple could act as a figure head for the market by producing their own original first party games, just like Nintendo does. They wouldnt need to make many, one or two a year, to have a real impact. They would demonstrate the feasability of the Mac market, and force the development of better tools. They might even be able to get shelf space in 'games' shops.
Especially if they can show off what CoreImage/Video can do within a game.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
I think Apple should secretly collaborate with some very very talented individuals or existing game company (Pangea, etc) and sponsor a simple, fun game that is free and opensource (for the rest of the develpoer community to use as a reference) that relies very very heavily on the core OSX technologies and will show-off the power and capabilities of our little OS.
They could also not have to do it secretly... or just whatever. Anyway, I dont think they should get in the game business, but they should show how easy (if it is) it is to make a game and document every process, then send off the exercise to all Mac, PC, Playstation, Xbox, Nintendo, and mobile phone game developer. Send it as a video DVD as well as have the source of a game plus documentation and whatnot. And obviously a nice promotional discount on hardware, and if necessary, create a new type of Apple Developer profile dedicated to video, gaming, etc.
CoreImage/Video is like Pixel-Shading for Dummies...and they're highly optimized too.
Developers can put some very amazing effects into their games with very little code with this technology. If that ain't much, you've got a reality check to do.
I haven't kept up 100% with this issue, but if consumer cards are still shipping something like the "Quake subset" of OpenGL, and if there are PCs that don't ship with OpenGL at all, then DX looks more attractive simply because there's one implementation that's guaranteed to be in any given Windows installation.
Not an insurmountable problem, but a problem.
Quote:
Originally posted by AirSluf
Well I wouldn't go that far. But most of the things you would use CI for in a game you would home-roll for max-performance reasons. CI seems to be mainly just a method of wrapping selected OGL code in an OS friendly and "the programmer doesn't need to understand OpenGL" way. Something that would detract from performance and break ease of cross platform work for game purposes.
But go back to your argument that OS X could be a better dev platform. CI becomes a huge asset in rapid development and prototyping, because you can delegate effects that would take a lot of work to hand-code and optimize even to the extent that CI is optimized. Eventually, sure, you replace the calls to CI—even if only for cross-platform compatibility. But if you're doing OS X only work and/or a given call into CI is fast enough, why not ship it and save yourself the trouble?
I think this will be an especially huge boon to shareware and casual games, where the game itself is too simple to tax the system much.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Do you change your point of view like most folks change underwear? Your thread to thread inconsistency and blind to the context arguments are quite amusing!
Point to me the inconsistency because I don't see it. I was answering to someone that mentionned Apple making its own games. And it could show CoreImage/Video's capabilities. Is there something I missed? Or do you get weird chuckles for no reason from time to time?
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
I think this will be an especially huge boon to shareware and casual games, where the game itself is too simple to tax the system much.
Yea, I'm thinking of trying to code a simple sideways scroller just to get used to graphics programming & manipulation in OS X. I think CI would be a wickedly easy way to add image warps (rotation, sizing, zoom, & alpha?) to create the cutscene between 'levels'.
Of course, I still have to figure out how to create a loooong image and move the memory 'frame' along it, and do collision checks & stuff. I should have something built by the time Tiger's successor comes out.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Comments
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Those are very specialized system architectures, but things like Mac-on-Linux give me hope of running Gamecube & Xbox games on Mac...
PC games on the other hand, are what I really want. To be able to by any PC game at the store, and run it on Mac would be incredible.
Projects like Transitive Software's QuickTransit for PPC have great potential.
Apple, if you're listening, the above thing looks really good to me
Originally posted by AirSluf
Interesting but vastly misplaced. Do you want some corporate VP at Apple deciding which games you will and won't get? No.
What we really need are developer tools that are so slick for gaming that going OpenGL/OpenAL (largely X-platform IOW) and writing on the Mac is faster and cheaper, hence preferrable to writing on Windows with DX.
If the trouble for writing for your platform is 50% compared to the other platform, but the other platform has a 40x userbase, it is still what, 20x more cost efficient to develop for the other platform?
What could really benefit Apple (and I'm not sure this is feasible) is a framework as powerful as DirectX, but totally cross-platform, so development team gets two for the price of one. They would go for that.
Edit: I think Apple would also do well (and this is feasible!) to create and release *on BSD license* a versatile professional-class game engine for OS X, for amateur, semi-pro and pro developers to use how they wish. This could draw many people into creating indie games for OS X, and a good indie game culture would, IMO, be a way to compete with the other platforms without meeting them head on. Apple would reap profits simply by having all this activity on OS X, but they could also get their own back by participating in web distribution, running servers, they could have an "Apple Battle.net", all readymade and easily accessible from the developer standpoint.
Other than making OS X generally nice for developers, Apple can boost game development simply by getting more marketshare, and currently the way to make that happen is by offering more affordable computers. If they start porting games, that is rather like climbing a tree backwards. It undermines the few companies that *are* in the porting business, and Apple should want more companies like that.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
I haven't tried making any games with Blender yet so I don't know how easy / difficult it is to build one.
Originally posted by AirSluf
Do you understand what OpenGL/OpenAL are??? If you did your first two thoughts were already answered. And proper dev tools could make the cross-dev more a 95-98% common for OGL/OAL apps, while making it easier and faster to do the main work under OS X. Pretty much killing the economics scaling arguments. It's actually not that far away except in perceptions, and that might be near impossible to change.
Yes, I understand what OpenGL and OpenAL are. What do you mean when you say "killing the economics scaling arguments"? The argument was that compatibility is the only way for a small platform to live, and it does not solve anything if you just make the native development easier, because the ROI is in any case better on a big platform. From the other things you wrote it would seem like you support my argument.
Do you have any idea what goes into a game engine? How many tradeoffs, the level of effort. Didn't think so. That's not an economically viable alternative.
Actually, I know. Note that I said "general purpose". The idea is not to challenge Source in FPS engines, the idea is to put a pretty good engine and full toolset into the hands of people who'd like to do commercial or hobby projects that don't require the latest tech to succeed. I estimate fifteen man-years for initial version of the engine, tools, documentation and some demos. If there is a pre-existing project that fills the requirements or is suitable as a base, Apple could just throw its weight behind that.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Originally posted by AirSluf
If you can produce, code and debug 95-98% cross platform code on OS X in 50-75% of the time due to better tools, then the scaling argument of where you code is broken.
Id did a lot of their development with NextStep machines,
http://doom-ed.com/john-carmack/the-last-nextstep.html
Ive read about multiple game companies producing in house code on nextstep due to speed of development ( and recently too ). I think this speaks highly about the potential for OS X to penetrate this niche.
Apple regularly go through cycles of paying attention to games. I think gamesproket was the last really good attempt. OS X has been busy with more fundamental issues. Maybe with Tiger they will ramp up game support again.
I dont believe that Apple should port games. Apple has always had a strong policy of not supporting porting efforts financially. It has lots of bad side effects, for the specfici projects, and the market in general.
If Apple want games they need to produce better tools.
I also believe that Apple could act as a figure head for the market by producing their own original first party games, just like Nintendo does. They wouldnt need to make many, one or two a year, to have a real impact. They would demonstrate the feasability of the Mac market, and force the development of better tools. They might even be able to get shelf space in 'games' shops.
Originally posted by mmmpie
I also believe that Apple could act as a figure head for the market by producing their own original first party games, just like Nintendo does. They wouldnt need to make many, one or two a year, to have a real impact. They would demonstrate the feasability of the Mac market, and force the development of better tools. They might even be able to get shelf space in 'games' shops.
Especially if they can show off what CoreImage/Video can do within a game.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Especially if they can show off what CoreImage/Video can do within a game.
Which, if I'm correct, ain't much.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
They could also not have to do it secretly... or just whatever. Anyway, I dont think they should get in the game business, but they should show how easy (if it is) it is to make a game and document every process, then send off the exercise to all Mac, PC, Playstation, Xbox, Nintendo, and mobile phone game developer. Send it as a video DVD as well as have the source of a game plus documentation and whatnot. And obviously a nice promotional discount on hardware, and if necessary, create a new type of Apple Developer profile dedicated to video, gaming, etc.
Thats just off the top of my head
Originally posted by Placebo
Which, if I'm correct, ain't much.
???
CoreImage/Video is like Pixel-Shading for Dummies...and they're highly optimized too.
Developers can put some very amazing effects into their games with very little code with this technology. If that ain't much, you've got a reality check to do.
Not an insurmountable problem, but a problem.
Originally posted by AirSluf
Well I wouldn't go that far. But most of the things you would use CI for in a game you would home-roll for max-performance reasons. CI seems to be mainly just a method of wrapping selected OGL code in an OS friendly and "the programmer doesn't need to understand OpenGL" way. Something that would detract from performance and break ease of cross platform work for game purposes.
But go back to your argument that OS X could be a better dev platform. CI becomes a huge asset in rapid development and prototyping, because you can delegate effects that would take a lot of work to hand-code and optimize even to the extent that CI is optimized. Eventually, sure, you replace the calls to CI—even if only for cross-platform compatibility. But if you're doing OS X only work and/or a given call into CI is fast enough, why not ship it and save yourself the trouble?
I think this will be an especially huge boon to shareware and casual games, where the game itself is too simple to tax the system much.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Originally posted by AirSluf
Do you change your point of view like most folks change underwear? Your thread to thread inconsistency and blind to the context arguments are quite amusing!
Point to me the inconsistency because I don't see it. I was answering to someone that mentionned Apple making its own games. And it could show CoreImage/Video's capabilities. Is there something I missed? Or do you get weird chuckles for no reason from time to time?
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Originally posted by Amorph
I think this will be an especially huge boon to shareware and casual games, where the game itself is too simple to tax the system much.
Yea, I'm thinking of trying to code a simple sideways scroller just to get used to graphics programming & manipulation in OS X. I think CI would be a wickedly easy way to add image warps (rotation, sizing, zoom, & alpha?) to create the cutscene between 'levels'.
Of course, I still have to figure out how to create a loooong image and move the memory 'frame' along it, and do collision checks & stuff. I should have something built by the time Tiger's successor comes out.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.