No G5 PowerBook?

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  • Reply 21 of 178
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by smallstepforman

    For the life of me, I dont understand why people want a G5 in a Powerbook (with current technology).



    That's a silly thing to say, why wouldn't I want the fastest thing Apple can give me. Let's be honest here, the current PowerBooks are no speed demons. My modest equipped IBM Lintel machine wipes the floor with the PowerBook. Don't get me wrong I love the Mac but for it's OS. The hardware leaves much to be desired, especially in the CPU arena.



    It's only human nature to want the best, especially when Apples has-been dragging ass this long. I also believe that Freescale will be a no show in future PowerBooks, if anything I would like to see IBM improve their G3 series albeit 750fx.
  • Reply 22 of 178
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,719member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by smallstepforman

    For the life of me, I dont understand why people want a G5 in a Powerbook (with current technology). Here are some reasons why Apple wont ship a G5 PB for the next 12-18 months:



    - 64 bit memory access is useless if you have less than 4 GB memory. I dont think PB will have more than 4Gb for 2-3 more years.



    Actually you are wrong here. 64 bit addressing is very usefull even with todays version of OS/X. The advantage comes in being able to address 4GB of memory per process, so even todays older 32 bit Applications may benefit.



    Beyond that if you do move to a OS with 64 bits of address range, you can take advantage of that in the same way that we do on small memory 32 bit systems, that is through virtual memory. Sure you get a slow down just like you do on 32 bit systems, the reality is though that a lot of limitations are removed for the application.



    Quote:

    - Heat. A lot of iMac G5 owners are complaining about fan noise (due to heat of G5). No way can you fit that in a notebook format without seriously stepping down the speed. I'll take a 1.5GHz G4 over an 1.2GHz G5 any day.



    Well this is seriously an issue, but do not expect the PowerBook to be delivered with a 970FX. I suspect that there will be a modified chip available that addresses IBM's terrible heat issues. But even that chip may not be enough.

    Quote:

    - Freescale. The dual core e600 chip with a FSB of 667MHz running at < 25W is amazing. The only thing this baby needs is a better FPU, otherwise, its perfect for Apple, its perfect for you, and its perfect for me. A notebook is supposed to have good battery life, and this is the only way to achieve that.



    Yes you got it, this chip would make one amazing laptop. In fact I might be willing to wing out the credit card for such a machine. I do hope though that the chip is one optimized for Apple (who really needs 4 ethernet ports on a laptop). Instead of those ethernet ports I would hope that Apple could integrate a good portion of the machine onto the chip. In other words (1) ethernet, a couple SATA ports, firewire and USB and what ever else a portable needs. This would make for one hot laptop, hot as in I want to get me a piece of that.

    Quote:

    The only thing I'm worried about is that Apple wont use the dual core version of e600, instead they'll settle on a single core. Then the PB will suck.



    Yep and we all know how much Apple enjoys making its customers buy sucky machines. I do hope that Apple sees that they have a huge opportunity here to move the PowerBook forward. In fact I think they could get a full years lead on the competition. Done right they could put a single core e600 in the 12" machine and upgrade the others to dual core. If we are lucky we may also get a reasonable performance boost for single thread apps.



    Thanks

    Dave
  • Reply 23 of 178
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,719member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by 9secondko

    Actually 64 bit memory access is useful with any amount of memory, because of the speed of the access. 64 bit instructions operate much faster than 32 bit, since many more instructions are executed at once. tiger will have great 64 bit instruction support.



    You started off good but went down hill pretty fast. 64 bit hardware is very usefull irregardless of how much memory is installed that is true. But the speed of access thing has to be carefully qualified.



    Also 64 bit instructions don't execute any faster than 32 bit instructions. You have the potential to replace multiple 32 bit instructions with one 64 bit instruction. One has to realize that that is balanced by the need to move alot of data around that you wouldn't have to with 32 bit hardware. In other words the length of pointer double. Unless the processor has changed you are also not likely to change the number of instructions operating at once.

    Quote:

    Apple i smoving to 64 bit and software for the company will too. soon. the powerbook needs to be prepared.



    Yes I believe that Apple is moving to 64 bits. However given the chioce of a very high speed dual e600 and a watered down 970xx, I'm thinking that the e600 machine would provide the best early pay off. Yes there is a gamble but I do believe that we have atleast 2 good years left in 32 bit land. After that it would be fairly stupid to buy a 32 bit machine.

    Quote:



    The Imac uses a 130nm desktop part. It is highly likely that the G5 Powerbook will use a 90nm custom part. Fan noise will always be there to some degree.



    Where did you get that idea? I'm thinking the iMac is running a 90nm part.

    Quote:

    the dual core G4 will not even sample until mid 2005. Even then, the whole industry is optimizing for the G5.



    The dual core that Freescale has announced will not be shipping but that is not likely to be used in the PowerBook. I'm thinking Apple has a custom variant designed in.

    Quote:



    The Powerbook should be ready. As far as battery life, that is where Powertune steps in. The chip does not need to be clocked low.



    Well agian you are wrong. In any event the iMac clearly shows that power management has a lot to be desired currently.

    Quote:

    the CPU detects when the notebook is on batteries and underclocks accordingly and ramps up when usae is needed. I have no doubt that the G5 in the PB will be a low power variant at a higher clock speed (@1.6-2 GHZ). If Intel can make a notebook version of the P4, IBM cna make a notebook version of the G5 and fit it in a smaller case.



    Well yeah they should be able to but they have already slipped up big time here as is public knowledge.

    Quote:



    The G4 at any speed will not suffice. the industry is optimizing for G5. Powerbook should enjoy the benefits.



    Well agian you are wrong. Considering the information that Freescale has released on the e600 and the potential for a high integration device, this chip line has a very good chance of ending up in a portable. It is extremely possible that the offering would be able to beat a G5 in both single and multithreaded applications.



    As to optimizations GCC is so far behind in PPC performance that it is likely that both processors will be seeing significant performance advantages with the newer releases of GCC. In any event some of the performance tweaks that get the G5 back into running are the result of missing instructions that some of us would like to see back in the porcessors. Sure there are G5 advantages in floating point arithmatic but the e600 with the band width restriction gone will do very well in vector and integer with respect to the G5.



    It is not that I would like to see a 64 bit portable if it was doable, it is more a matter of realizing that there are good alternatives out there.



    Dave
  • Reply 24 of 178
    Mr. Wizard,



    Point # 1.



    Sorry to oversimplify, but 64 bit instructions are executed faster than 32 bit. by that all I mean is this: MORE DATA GETS FROM POINT A TO POINT B IN A GIVEN PERIOD OF TIME WITH A 64 BIT PROC.



    Point # 2:

    As far as Powertune, what are you talking about? I don't think the imac runs on batteries!



    Point # 3:

    And IBM messing up with G5 notebooks? That's news to me.



    As far as the G4, it is fine wiht the i series, but not the power series.



    The PB is Apples high end. It should have the latest and greatest and yes, that includes 64 bit support and the G5 moniker. Forget about Freescale for the Power series. Ibook, sure. Emac, whay not? Powerbook, no way. Tiger has greater support for 64 bit. I say it again. The PB should be ready.





    peace.
  • Reply 25 of 178
    rhumgodrhumgod Posts: 1,289member
    To clarify, iMac G5s do use 90nm parts and utilize PowerTune:



    <key>PowerMac8,1</key>

    <string>SMU_Neo2_PlatformPlugin</string>



    Of course, this really doesn't dismiss the fact that they were in there, and probably for good reason (disception not withstanding). And coincidentally, rebates on PowerBooks and PowerMacs end January 10th. It would be easy to remove the keys from the table, once you know they behave according to plan .
  • Reply 26 of 178
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    It appears that Apple had high hopes for the 970fx, realized that it would take some serious tweaking before it would ever go into a PB, and just yanked any nascent support from 10.3.x because they knew it wouldn't appear for a while.



    I don't doubt that there will be a PowerBook G5 at this point. It's simply a matter of when, and the main variable there is when IBM can get high yields of low voltage, low wattage 970-class CPUs. It looks like the iMac's already got the necessary chipsets, or something close.



    Freescale's forthcoming CPUs will be just the thing for iBooks, eMacs (assuming the eMac doesn't go G5, which it might if IBM does particularly well with G5s...), and any similar Apple products. The death of MaxBus will get rid of a serious bottleneck, and allow the machines to be decent all-around performers for a small cost in heat and price.



    I think the roadmap looks pretty good. Things aren't coming as fast as we'd like, perhaps (what's new? ), but it's sure nice to see something on the horizon besides another G4 (or that Great White Hope, the vector-savvy G3). It's almost like those heady days when we had the 603 and the 604.
  • Reply 27 of 178
    rhumgodrhumgod Posts: 1,289member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    It appears that Apple had high hopes for the 970fx, realized that it would take some serious tweaking before it would ever go into a PB, and just yanked any nascent support from 10.3.x because they knew it wouldn't appear for a while.



    I was thinking about that. I am sure Apple has a "test" environment of Mac OS X for products in development. I guess Apple has some kind of PowerBook G5 that they were testing, otherwise, why have the specs in there. But why put that code into the production Mac OS X environment? Unless it was near ready, except IBM dropped the ball once again. Or some heat/battery life issues arose later in testing. Either way, they must have something they were testing with 10.3.5 to have included them. Kinda like they did with the G5 iMac. They left them in the .kext a couple of months early. I'd love to know the truth, but I guess it is safe to say the G5 PowerBook is close, but something is holding it back. Either that, or it was a programmer snafu and accidentally left the specs in the production AppleMacRISC4PE.kext bundle.
  • Reply 28 of 178
    i just wanna throw in my 2 cents about the G5s and the road map. Anyone who isn't satisfied with the Dual 2.5 machine either hasnt used one or is ignorant. I do a ton of video work, which is very processor intensive, and this machine crunches through it like a Word document. I've never used a computer that has felt snappier and more stable than the machine I own now. I understand that people can always benefit from faster processors, but it's not exactly an emergency for anyone. Unless someone has their OS on a 10K RPM hard drive, everything else in RAID 0, over 4GB of ram, and a dual 2.5 G5 and is still having sluggishness, nobody should be complaining.
  • Reply 29 of 178
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ipodandimac

    i just wanna throw in my 2 cents about the G5s and the road map. Anyone who isn't satisfied with the Dual 2.5 machine either hasnt used one or is ignorant. I do a ton of video work, which is very processor intensive, and this machine crunches through it like a Word document. I've never used a computer that has felt snappier and more stable than the machine I own now. I understand that people can always benefit from faster processors, but it's not exactly an emergency for anyone. Unless someone has their OS on a 10K RPM hard drive, everything else in RAID 0, over 4GB of ram, and a dual 2.5 G5 and is still having sluggishness, nobody should be complaining.



    I agree, at work, we use a brand new Alien P4, 2 GB Raid 0 for multimedia. I used to think the machine was the fastest thing out there...until I decided to test drive the New G5 2.5 at the Apple Store. Big mistake. Now I have to get one along with my PBG5. I read an article on anandtech.com comparing the Powermac to PCs and he says that the PM was sluggish. I think he had been putting in too much overtime or soemthing. The G5 that I tested makes the Alienware Area 51 seem slooooow. I don't know how much RAM they put in them at the Apple store, but that kind of speed is insane. To think what 3 GHZ will be like. I think it would take the P4 up to 5 GHZ to match it. that said, more GHZ is always good.



    PBG52.0 Jan.
  • Reply 30 of 178
    So is there going to be a new powerbook...? I'm wondering if i should just buy a 1.5gig 15" pb with the 128mb card and 1gig ram. I get it for cost at work. Or should i get a dual 2gig with 1 gig ram ? Or should i wait ? I'd be pretty pissed off if something did come out in january ...
  • Reply 31 of 178
    If you need the machine now, but it.



    If you don't, I would wait. Apple needs to update the 'books somehow and soon. It's just a matter of what they change.



    I would at least expect to see a faster GPU, possibly a Radeon Mobility 9800, which is up to twice as fast as the current GPU (depending on what you are doing and whether Apple clocks it down to manage any heat issues).



    You could also see a dual-layer Superdrive, nicer screen, and other goodies. This would still qualify as a minor update but depending on what you want the machine for it could be worth the wait.



    I figure this is worth the wait to me, as it would extend the useful life of the machine once I have it. I prefer to buy an expensive machine every so often, rather than cheaper ones more frequently. But that's just me.



    A G5 'book isn't impossible. But I don't think you'll see anyone betting their grandmother on one being announced in Jan .. :o)
  • Reply 32 of 178
    i expect new displays in the pb's i like being portable but i like power too. i play with all the powerbooks at work and teh g5 dual 2 and i love them all. but just dont want to spend 3500 on something that could change and or get better..
  • Reply 33 of 178
    Apple could and should have given the powerbooks a minor bump before christmas if there was nothing in the pipeline for 4-5 months. The fact that they haven't suggests that there is something major coming, and based on the facts avaliable one would have to assume it will be a G5.



    And what better place to announce the PB G5 than MWSF 2005 (especially seeing as the PB G4 was also announced at MWSF).



    EDIT: And as to the removal of the supposed G5 keys from the .plist, it is highly likely that there will be a 10.3.7 update before the end of January, not to mention that the powerbooks could ship with a later build anyway.



    Oh, and apologies for lurking for so long
  • Reply 34 of 178
    The next PowerBook will be a G5 but i don't think it will ship janauary.

    Updating the PowerBooks to G5 will be an inceadible leap and i think we will also see updadted displays at the same time. Higher resolution displays will only be entroduced when the OS is resoltuion indipendent.



    Conclution:

    New G5 PowerBooks and Tiger will be introdused at the same time... It would be optimistsic to think this will happen in January, but not impossible.



    Viktor
  • Reply 35 of 178
    rhumgodrhumgod Posts: 1,289member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by farve

    Higher resolution displays will only be entroduced when the OS is resoltuion indipendent.



    What exactly do you mean by that? OS X is already resolution independent. I can set the resolution on my PowerBook to be just about anything.
  • Reply 36 of 178
    cubistcubist Posts: 954member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Rhumgod

    What exactly do you mean by that? OS X is already resolution independent. I can set the resolution on my PowerBook to be just about anything.



    Right, and the system font and window widgets get larger and smaller as you do so. At least in Mac OS 9 we had a choice of which font we wanted.



    Just as a reminder, since 1995 the Windows community has been able to change every font, every color, nearly every aspect of the user interface, right out of the box.



    And don't bring up the third-party skins. That's like saying a bicycle is a motorcycle because some shop somewhere makes a motor I can kludge onto it. Those skins are notoriously unreliable.
  • Reply 37 of 178
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Rhumgod

    What exactly do you mean by that? OS X is already resolution independent. I can set the resolution on my PowerBook to be just about anything.



    yeah but your max res is 1280x854..





    Id like to see it higher..
  • Reply 38 of 178
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Rhumgod

    What exactly do you mean by that? OS X is already resolution independent. I can set the resolution on my PowerBook to be just about anything.



    That's not what resolution independence means. To understand what it means, think about the difference between screens and printers.



    If you set the resolution on your PowerBook higher, everything gets smaller. But if you buy a printer with a higher DPI, nothing changes in size. Instead, what you print gets clearer and sharper (all else being equal). This is what resolution actually means: Not how many pixels there are, but how accurately the image or glyph you're displaying is represented. A 12-point capital letter will always be roughly the same height, but on an old ImageWriter it will look blocky, and on a new laser printer it will look typeset.



    Imagine being able to do that with your screen, and you understand resolution independence.



    The basic idea is to eliminate the hardware pixel as a unit of measure altogether, to get the "independence" in "resolution independence". Then, as your screen resolution goes up, you get a clearer picture of what's "really" on the screen&mdash;the "one inch" horizontal line gets closer and closer to being exactly one inch across; the text gets closer and closer to looking typeset; the photo you scanned at 600dpi looks more and more like the original. If you decide you want everything bigger, then you can scale everything up&mdash;but everything is still rendered at the full native resolution of the screen.



    This clears the way for hilariously high-definition screens. 200dpi? Sure. 300? Why not? The sky's the limit, because the size of what's rendered on screen is expressed in real-world terms (points, inches), and as with printers and scanners, more pixels simply means a more faithful rendering of those real-world specifications. And if you want to scale up or down, go right ahead. You can do that, and still run the display at its full native resolution rather than putting up with smudgy anti-aliasing.



    It's going to be a beautiful thing, trust me.



    (BTW, the original QuickDraw was resolution independent, until a needed speed optimization broke the model. Everything old is new again.)
  • Reply 39 of 178
    Another good resone for the PowerBook to use G5 is so the Mac platform can to a higher degree utilze the handsom IBM compiler, Firefox was just reasently realesed is an G5 version.

    To be able to otimize software better there will be a need for the Mac to be all g5.

    I predict there will be no future for new Freescale chips.



    Viktor
  • Reply 40 of 178
    rhumgodrhumgod Posts: 1,289member
    So when an LCD with a fixed pixel ratio to screen size suddenly becomes dynamic. Uh huh. Not anytime soon - you are talking literally floating LCD elements, if I read you right Amorph. Good Lord, look at the requirements for driving the 30" LCD and consider the requirements for such a thing. How many dual-link DVI connections are you going to use to drive that sucker!
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