If you've been a tower user, you're not going to be completely happy with an all-in-one. I'll bet those G3's and that 7100 aren't still exactly equipped as they were when they shipped.
What do they need to make a successful looking CPU in January without going into a totally different design? (and by that I mean Dual Core) What? Would a Level 3 cache bring out any hypothetical processor performance gains? If it would why have they not added the level 3 cache to the G5 yet?
What do they need to make a successful looking CPU in January without going into a totally different design? (and by that I mean Dual Core) What?
Well, some people would be happy if it could hold more SATA drives...
Apart from that, they could do the usual incremental upgrade, and make everything just a little bigger or faster, as appropriate.
Quote:
Would a Level 3 cache bring out any hypothetical processor performance gains? If it would why have they not added the level 3 cache to the G5 yet?
The gains, if any, would not be worth the considerable cost of RAM suitable for L3 (about $100/MB) and the time and trouble involved in building a 970 with L3 cache tags; especially since the 970 particularly excels at streaming, which tends to overwhelm caches. The high-bandwidth Elastic Bus obviates most of the need for an L3 cache. An on-die memory controller connected to RAM via RapidIO will do likewise for the forthcoming G4s.
By way of comparison, even on the bandwidth-starved 7450 G4 a 2MB L3 cache only bumped the performance of PowerBook G4s by about 2 percent on average.
If you ask me, L3 is dead, at least in the price/performance range that Apple purchases from. Bandwidth is less of a problem, and L2 cache is rapidly approaching the size of L3 in any case. The 970GX has 1MB L2 cache on die!
Going back to the original topic question, IMO the best we can hope for is a modest speed bump in the middle of the line model, from 2.0 to 2.2, and perhaps a bump on the buttom of the line dual to 2.0.
I would bet my bank account that NO Powermac g5 will be announced in Jan. I'm actually very leary about it being announced in March. I would bet on June again.
I don't know how you're still using a g3. But if you can hold out to June... do it... if not, you're not going to lose a whole lot by not waiting and getting what's available now.
I'd have to agree with emig647 on these two points. There won't be new PowerMacs announced in Jan. At the earliest it will be March when the new PowerMacs will be announced. I doubt it would be June. I think Apple was delayed by about 3 months last year due to unforeseen problems.
And if you have a G3 right now and want to upgrade to a G5, I see no better time than now. Apple seems to be solving their supply issues.
What do they need to make a successful looking CPU in January without going into a totally different design? (and by that I mean Dual Core) What? Would a Level 3 cache bring out any hypothetical processor performance gains? If it would why have they not added the level 3 cache to the G5 yet?
Adding L3 would be a fairly major change. The rumoured GX will include a doubling of the L2 which is both more performance and cost effective. Simply getting better yields would be a start. Improving power consumption and heat dissapation would be good as well, even if it isn't accompanied by much of a clock rate bump. Anything else is at least as big a change as putting 2 cores on one die.
Adding L3 would be a fairly major change. The rumoured GX will include a doubling of the L2 which is both more performance and cost effective. Simply getting better yields would be a start. Improving power consumption and heat dissapation would be good as well, even if it isn't accompanied by much of a clock rate bump. Anything else is at least as big a change as putting 2 cores on one die.
I asked because I've seen people complain about it being gone in the past, and I always wondered. I was also trying to re-spark this thread.
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Simply getting better yields would be a start. Improving power consumption and heat dissapation would be good as well, even if it isn't accompanied by much of a clock rate bump.
These are the major problems I see with the G5 too. The radiator has got to go. I have not heard that yields are increasing at all, but I hope IBM has figured out exactly why these problems occurred, and has developed counter measures to rectify these problems.
If not the move to 65nm seems like a poor solution, and should be an even more troubling fab than the current one.
I'd have to agree with emig647 on these two points. There won't be new PowerMacs announced in Jan. At the earliest it will be March when the new PowerMacs will be announced. I doubt it would be June. I think Apple was delayed by about 3 months last year due to unforeseen problems.
And if you have a G3 right now and want to upgrade to a G5, I see no better time than now. Apple seems to be solving their supply issues.
The only advantage I could see to getting a current G5 now would be for professional use where all your expected needs are well covered.
And to take advantage of any needed tax write-off's for 2004.
$2000-$4000 for a CPU is still a huge investment for almost anyone.
If waiting 6 months more would make you feel more comfortable
with your investment, then hang in there and see what happens next.
These are the major problems I see with the G5 too. The radiator has got to go. I have not heard that yields are increasing at all, but I hope IBM has figured out exactly why these problems occurred, and has developed counter measures to rectify these problems.
IBM recently stated that their yields at 90nm have doubled twice, and that they're looking at another 40% increase. That should give you some idea of how horrible they were at the beginning of this year! Of course, we don't really know how good they are in absolute terms, but there's no question that IBM has made progress.
Quote:
If not the move to 65nm seems like a poor solution, and should be an even more troubling fab than the current one.
It's not a solution to the problem of low yields at 90nm. Process (and if necessary, CPU design) refinements are really the only solution. You switch to a different process to solve a problem or gain a capability that the current process can't do. For instance, IBM is currently working on adding more goodies to their 90nm process to coax out a low-voltage 970fx, since it's become clear that the current minimalist process won't yield enough no matter how many medium- to high- voltage parts test successfully.
What do they need to make a successful looking CPU in January without going into a totally different design? (and by that I mean Dual Core) What? Would a Level 3 cache bring out any hypothetical processor performance gains? If it would why have they not added the level 3 cache to the G5 yet?
Trying to be somewhat realistic,
I hope we will see availability of the
ATI X800 series SINGLE SLOT 256MB cards.
The current high end offerings requiring the use of 2 PCI slots
simply rubs me the wrong way for long term upgradability.
There is also a fan noise issue.
Availability of Dual Layer Superdrive
.2 speed bump
???TIGER???
A Standard Office Suite that is both M$ and AppleWorks compatable
would really turn some heads.
An effective anti-spyware program similar to Ad-aware or SpyBot S&D
and upgrades to MAIL filtering. ( Just in case )
1GB Memory standard
3 YEAR Limited WARRANTY STANDARD!!!
In other words, Apple could simply improve the current models
by making more options available without any major engineering
changes, while also paying attention to any weakness discovered
after field testing the current models.
By spring we may get a better idea of how close the long awaited
The current high end offerings requiring the use of 2 PCI slots
simply rubs me the wrong way for long term upgradability.
There is also a fan noise issue.
Availability of Dual Layer Superdrive
.2 speed bump
???TIGER???
A Standard Office Suite that is both M$ and AppleWorks compatable
would really turn some heads.
An effective anti-spyware program similar to Ad-aware or SpyBot S&D
and upgrades to MAIL filtering. ( Just in case )
1GB Memory standard
3 YEAR Limited WARRANTY STANDARD!!!
In other words, Apple could simply improve the current models
by making more options available without any major engineering
changes, while also paying attention to any weakness discovered
after field testing the current models.
By spring we may get a better idea of how close the long awaited
dual core or Power 5's are to reality.
I hate to say it, but I hate your post.
I'll start at the bottom, and go up because it's easier for me.
3 YEAR Limited WARRANTY STANDARD!!!
Who offers that now?
1GB Memory standard
Your just adding major $$$ to the cost of the computer. It's cheaper to skimp on ram, and buy it your self.
An effective anti-spyware program similar to Ad-aware or SpyBot S&D
and upgrades to MAIL filtering. ( Just in case )
It was at this point I realized that you are PC user. This also depends on your mail app, and chosen account, but I suppose it exists, but this something that is obviously important to you so be it.
A Standard Office Suite that is both M$ and AppleWorks compatable
would really turn some heads.
O.K. Sure.
???TIGER???
Not going to happen at MWSF
.2 speed bump
O.K. Sure
Availability of Dual Layer Superdrive
Apple may be cautious when adding a dual layer SuperDrive if they even bother adding one at this point. Dual layer disks that you burn on new dual layer burners, are not compatible with over 90% of home DVD players. What they may choose to do instead is just announce the 16X SuperDrive, and not mention that it burns dual layers, or let be known that dual layer is not particularly good with home viewing.
There is also a fan noise issue.
I have not noticed much noise out of a G5 that I have seen yet. I think G4's were much louder, but still not that loud.
ATI X800 series SINGLE SLOT 256MB cards.
The current high end offerings requiring the use of 2 PCI slots
I think this issue is an ATI one, and not an Apple problem.
3 YEAR Limited WARRANTY STANDARD!!! Who offers that now? An effective anti-spyware program similar to Ad-aware or SpyBot S&D
and upgrades to MAIL filtering. ( Just in case ) It was at this point I realized that you are PC user. This also depends on your mail app, and chosen account, but I suppose it exists, but this something that is obviously important to you so be it.
A Standard Office Suite that is both M$ and AppleWorks compatable
would really turn some heads. O.K. Sure. There is also a fan noise issue. I have not noticed much noise out of a G5 that I have seen yet. I think G4's were much louder, but still not that loud. ATI X800 series SINGLE SLOT 256MB cards.
The current high end offerings requiring the use of 2 PCI slots I think this issue is an ATI one, and not an Apple problem.
- I'd like to see a 3-year warrantee too!
- Being a PC user explains the spyware and adware request - Mac users don't have spyware and adware.
- MS-Office is the standard office suite - has been for years
- I have a G5 DP2.5 and that puppy's quiet. There's only been a few G5's with minor fan problems which usually just requires a fan calibration. No biggy.
- Being a PC user explains the spy-ware and ad-ware request - Mac users don't have spy-ware and ad-ware.
- MS-Office is the standard office suite - has been for years
- I have a G5 DP2.5 and that puppy's quiet. There's only been a few G5's with minor fan problems which usually just requires a fan calibration. No biggy.
- I'd like to see ATI intro the X800 8x AGP card.
I appreciate your point of view OnLooker.
Perhaps you got the wrong impression from my post.
I tried to answer with things that Apple COULD do by January
that would not involve major re-engineering.
Personally, a sledgehammer is the only thing I would use on a P/C
I'm the parent of 2 teenage PC users.
Who now understand why I wanted them to get a Mac.
I'm also getting way more spam lately for some reason.
It might be easier for you to understand my Spy-ware comment
from my perspective.
Last month some low life managed to write " opener "
Most of us were well covered by Net Barrier, Lil Snitch etc.
but many may not have been.
Also keep in mind how hard it has been for Apple to prove
that their operating systems are the most secure in the world.
OSX is for the moment, but where there's smoke there's fire
and more low life's trying to make a name for themselves.
This will increase as more users switch to UNIX based OS's
On a grander scale, Many of those thinking about switching
to OSX are doing so to escape the XP nightmare.
The same nightmare that tries to spread to us each time we correspond
with a P/C user. Eventually they will learn to write UNIX code.
Overconfidence in this matter is a prescription for disaster.
Microsoft Office X full suite was not standard in 10.2.8 other than a
30 day demo.
A single slot 256 MB GPU card would still be preferable to most buyers
I mentioned a Dual Layer DVD burner as an OPTION along with
any other optical drive improvements that come along.
A longer warranty should not even be a worry to Apple
as long as they continue to make quality products.
The whole point is that if Apple has all the cool stuff people want
then more people will want Apples and more cool stuff will become available for Apple users.
Comments
Originally posted by onlooker
What do they need to make a successful looking CPU in January without going into a totally different design? (and by that I mean Dual Core) What?
Well, some people would be happy if it could hold more SATA drives...
Apart from that, they could do the usual incremental upgrade, and make everything just a little bigger or faster, as appropriate.
Would a Level 3 cache bring out any hypothetical processor performance gains? If it would why have they not added the level 3 cache to the G5 yet?
The gains, if any, would not be worth the considerable cost of RAM suitable for L3 (about $100/MB) and the time and trouble involved in building a 970 with L3 cache tags; especially since the 970 particularly excels at streaming, which tends to overwhelm caches. The high-bandwidth Elastic Bus obviates most of the need for an L3 cache. An on-die memory controller connected to RAM via RapidIO will do likewise for the forthcoming G4s.
By way of comparison, even on the bandwidth-starved 7450 G4 a 2MB L3 cache only bumped the performance of PowerBook G4s by about 2 percent on average.
If you ask me, L3 is dead, at least in the price/performance range that Apple purchases from. Bandwidth is less of a problem, and L2 cache is rapidly approaching the size of L3 in any case. The 970GX has 1MB L2 cache on die!
Originally posted by emig647
I would bet my bank account that NO Powermac g5 will be announced in Jan. I'm actually very leary about it being announced in March. I would bet on June again.
I don't know how you're still using a g3. But if you can hold out to June... do it... if not, you're not going to lose a whole lot by not waiting and getting what's available now.
I'd have to agree with emig647 on these two points. There won't be new PowerMacs announced in Jan. At the earliest it will be March when the new PowerMacs will be announced. I doubt it would be June. I think Apple was delayed by about 3 months last year due to unforeseen problems.
And if you have a G3 right now and want to upgrade to a G5, I see no better time than now. Apple seems to be solving their supply issues.
Originally posted by onlooker
What do they need to make a successful looking CPU in January without going into a totally different design? (and by that I mean Dual Core) What? Would a Level 3 cache bring out any hypothetical processor performance gains? If it would why have they not added the level 3 cache to the G5 yet?
Adding L3 would be a fairly major change. The rumoured GX will include a doubling of the L2 which is both more performance and cost effective. Simply getting better yields would be a start. Improving power consumption and heat dissapation would be good as well, even if it isn't accompanied by much of a clock rate bump. Anything else is at least as big a change as putting 2 cores on one die.
Originally posted by Programmer
Adding L3 would be a fairly major change. The rumoured GX will include a doubling of the L2 which is both more performance and cost effective. Simply getting better yields would be a start. Improving power consumption and heat dissapation would be good as well, even if it isn't accompanied by much of a clock rate bump. Anything else is at least as big a change as putting 2 cores on one die.
I asked because I've seen people complain about it being gone in the past, and I always wondered. I was also trying to re-spark this thread.
Originally posted by Programmer
Simply getting better yields would be a start. Improving power consumption and heat dissapation would be good as well, even if it isn't accompanied by much of a clock rate bump.
These are the major problems I see with the G5 too. The radiator has got to go. I have not heard that yields are increasing at all, but I hope IBM has figured out exactly why these problems occurred, and has developed counter measures to rectify these problems.
If not the move to 65nm seems like a poor solution, and should be an even more troubling fab than the current one.
Originally posted by Leonard
I'd have to agree with emig647 on these two points. There won't be new PowerMacs announced in Jan. At the earliest it will be March when the new PowerMacs will be announced. I doubt it would be June. I think Apple was delayed by about 3 months last year due to unforeseen problems.
And if you have a G3 right now and want to upgrade to a G5, I see no better time than now. Apple seems to be solving their supply issues.
The only advantage I could see to getting a current G5 now would be for professional use where all your expected needs are well covered.
And to take advantage of any needed tax write-off's for 2004.
$2000-$4000 for a CPU is still a huge investment for almost anyone.
If waiting 6 months more would make you feel more comfortable
with your investment, then hang in there and see what happens next.
Originally posted by onlooker
These are the major problems I see with the G5 too. The radiator has got to go. I have not heard that yields are increasing at all, but I hope IBM has figured out exactly why these problems occurred, and has developed counter measures to rectify these problems.
IBM recently stated that their yields at 90nm have doubled twice, and that they're looking at another 40% increase. That should give you some idea of how horrible they were at the beginning of this year! Of course, we don't really know how good they are in absolute terms, but there's no question that IBM has made progress.
If not the move to 65nm seems like a poor solution, and should be an even more troubling fab than the current one.
It's not a solution to the problem of low yields at 90nm. Process (and if necessary, CPU design) refinements are really the only solution. You switch to a different process to solve a problem or gain a capability that the current process can't do. For instance, IBM is currently working on adding more goodies to their 90nm process to coax out a low-voltage 970fx, since it's become clear that the current minimalist process won't yield enough no matter how many medium- to high- voltage parts test successfully.
Originally posted by onlooker
What do they need to make a successful looking CPU in January without going into a totally different design? (and by that I mean Dual Core) What? Would a Level 3 cache bring out any hypothetical processor performance gains? If it would why have they not added the level 3 cache to the G5 yet?
Trying to be somewhat realistic,
I hope we will see availability of the
ATI X800 series SINGLE SLOT 256MB cards.
The current high end offerings requiring the use of 2 PCI slots
simply rubs me the wrong way for long term upgradability.
There is also a fan noise issue.
Availability of Dual Layer Superdrive
.2 speed bump
???TIGER???
A Standard Office Suite that is both M$ and AppleWorks compatable
would really turn some heads.
An effective anti-spyware program similar to Ad-aware or SpyBot S&D
and upgrades to MAIL filtering. ( Just in case )
1GB Memory standard
3 YEAR Limited WARRANTY STANDARD!!!
In other words, Apple could simply improve the current models
by making more options available without any major engineering
changes, while also paying attention to any weakness discovered
after field testing the current models.
By spring we may get a better idea of how close the long awaited
dual core or Power 5's are to reality.
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
Trying to be somewhat realistic,
I hope we will see availability of the
ATI X800 series SINGLE SLOT 256MB cards.
The current high end offerings requiring the use of 2 PCI slots
simply rubs me the wrong way for long term upgradability.
There is also a fan noise issue.
Availability of Dual Layer Superdrive
.2 speed bump
???TIGER???
A Standard Office Suite that is both M$ and AppleWorks compatable
would really turn some heads.
An effective anti-spyware program similar to Ad-aware or SpyBot S&D
and upgrades to MAIL filtering. ( Just in case )
1GB Memory standard
3 YEAR Limited WARRANTY STANDARD!!!
In other words, Apple could simply improve the current models
by making more options available without any major engineering
changes, while also paying attention to any weakness discovered
after field testing the current models.
By spring we may get a better idea of how close the long awaited
dual core or Power 5's are to reality.
I hate to say it, but I hate your post.
I'll start at the bottom, and go up because it's easier for me.
and upgrades to MAIL filtering. ( Just in case )
A Standard Office Suite that is both M$ and AppleWorks compatable
would really turn some heads.
The current high end offerings requiring the use of 2 PCI slots
Originally posted by onlooker
I hate to say it, but I hate your post.
3 YEAR Limited WARRANTY STANDARD!!!
Who offers that now?
An effective anti-spyware program similar to Ad-aware or SpyBot S&D
and upgrades to MAIL filtering. ( Just in case )
It was at this point I realized that you are PC user. This also depends on your mail app, and chosen account, but I suppose it exists, but this something that is obviously important to you so be it.
A Standard Office Suite that is both M$ and AppleWorks compatable
would really turn some heads.
O.K. Sure.
There is also a fan noise issue.
I have not noticed much noise out of a G5 that I have seen yet. I think G4's were much louder, but still not that loud.
ATI X800 series SINGLE SLOT 256MB cards.
The current high end offerings requiring the use of 2 PCI slots
I think this issue is an ATI one, and not an Apple problem.
- I'd like to see a 3-year warrantee too!
- Being a PC user explains the spyware and adware request - Mac users don't have spyware and adware.
- MS-Office is the standard office suite - has been for years
- I have a G5 DP2.5 and that puppy's quiet. There's only been a few G5's with minor fan problems which usually just requires a fan calibration. No biggy.
- I'd like to see ATI intro the X800 8x AGP card.
Originally posted by Leonard
- I'd like to see a 3-year warrantee too!
- Being a PC user explains the spy-ware and ad-ware request - Mac users don't have spy-ware and ad-ware.
- MS-Office is the standard office suite - has been for years
- I have a G5 DP2.5 and that puppy's quiet. There's only been a few G5's with minor fan problems which usually just requires a fan calibration. No biggy.
- I'd like to see ATI intro the X800 8x AGP card.
I appreciate your point of view OnLooker.
Perhaps you got the wrong impression from my post.
I tried to answer with things that Apple COULD do by January
that would not involve major re-engineering.
Personally, a sledgehammer is the only thing I would use on a P/C
I'm the parent of 2 teenage PC users.
Who now understand why I wanted them to get a Mac.
I'm also getting way more spam lately for some reason.
It might be easier for you to understand my Spy-ware comment
from my perspective.
Last month some low life managed to write " opener "
Most of us were well covered by Net Barrier, Lil Snitch etc.
but many may not have been.
Also keep in mind how hard it has been for Apple to prove
that their operating systems are the most secure in the world.
OSX is for the moment, but where there's smoke there's fire
and more low life's trying to make a name for themselves.
This will increase as more users switch to UNIX based OS's
On a grander scale, Many of those thinking about switching
to OSX are doing so to escape the XP nightmare.
The same nightmare that tries to spread to us each time we correspond
with a P/C user. Eventually they will learn to write UNIX code.
Overconfidence in this matter is a prescription for disaster.
Microsoft Office X full suite was not standard in 10.2.8 other than a
30 day demo.
A single slot 256 MB GPU card would still be preferable to most buyers
I mentioned a Dual Layer DVD burner as an OPTION along with
any other optical drive improvements that come along.
A longer warranty should not even be a worry to Apple
as long as they continue to make quality products.
The whole point is that if Apple has all the cool stuff people want
then more people will want Apples and more cool stuff will become available for Apple users.
I still want that Quadra