I guess someone living in Mormon country, such as yourself, would know a thing or two about colonization.
Indeed. The mormons were violently oppressed at every turn throughout most of their history and settled in Utah for no other reason than that they thought it would suit their needs and was at the same time so rugged no one would want to take it from them. And lookee! People keep steaming in here, telling the mormons that they need to conform to mainstream American culture and give up the values they hold. And if they're not streaming in here, they're beaming their message in through the TV and movies.
Modern anecdote: I've never spent much time on the east coast (although lots and lots of short trips). However, a few years ago I was sitting in Bradley international for an hour or so across from an aer lingus jet, and I overheard no less than 3 derogatory comments prompted only by that jet being there. Yeah, I know I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was.
Modern anecdote: I've never spent much time on the east coast (although lots and lots of short trips). However, a few years ago I was sitting in Bradley international for an hour or so across from an aer lingus jet, and I overheard no less than 3 derogatory comments prompted by that jet being there. Yeah, I know I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was.
My roommate (of Irish descent) in college had a sign on his wall: "Help wanted. No Irish need apply."
I'm still waiting for bandaids for people of color. Ever notice how silly they look with the bright bandaids of today?
But no worries..everyone is so hellbent on breeding out their color with whites pretty soon we'll all be the same damn shade.
Ever read Noughts and Crosses? (Malorie Blackman). It's a story of a reality where blacks (known as Crosses) are the ruling classes and whites (the Noughts) are struggling for equality.
Just reminded me because she makes a point about the colour of plasters (band-aids) in there.
(BTW, for any non-Brits, Noughts and Crosses is the game that the USA calls Tic-tac-toe - hence the title being a pun on that.)
Modern anecdote: I've never spent much time on the east coast (although lots and lots of short trips). However, a few years ago I was sitting in Bradley international for an hour or so across from an aer lingus jet, and I overheard no less than 3 derogatory comments prompted only by that jet being there. Yeah, I know I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was.
Odd. I hear Irish (and Polish) jokes all the time, and comments/stereotypes that could be taken as derogatory. However, they're never serious. They're jokes because they're ridiculous, not because they're taken to be true. I can make jokes about being black with my friends who are black because they know I don't mean it. I wonder if some of these cases are the same kind of thing. If some people heard what I've said to my friends out of context, they might think I'm Karl K. Klan.
I've yet to really encounter any prejudice against the Irish in the US. The East coast and Mid-west populations are particularly aware of their ethnic groups, Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Swedes, etc., much moreso it seems than people out West or in the South. (My experience in the south is that you're white, latino or black. Period.) But the ethnic prejudices seem to have died off for the most part with my grandparent's generation. People are still very aware of their heritages and of the old sterotypes, but I don't know of anyone under the age of 75 who takes them seriously.
Odd. I hear Irish (and Polish) jokes all the time, and comments/stereotypes that could be taken as derogatory.
That's the thing. Since I spend most of my time in Chicago I never, ever do. Out west I never, ever do. I just don't hear ethnic jokes at all. When I was in grade school there were the polish jokes and jamaican jokes, but we were kids. My impression when I heard those comments in the airport was that they were derogatory, but I could be wrong.
However, when I (3rd gen irish-american) was living outside of detroit, in houston and when I've been in a couple other places down south, I've had a whole lot of whites make a whole lot of off the cuff racist anti-black comments to me as apparently some sort of white bonding thing, more so in the detroit area than anywhere, but certainly a lot in a number of places.
One interesting thing I noticed living in a somewhat wealthy detroit suburb (rochester area) was how the Black teenagers acted out the TV stereotypes. I was relatively young (early 20s) and had grown up in very ethnicly diverse urban neighborhoods, so I rarely encountered people of any ethnicity that fit the stereotypes.
I have a couple guesses about why these Black kids acted this way. Obviously, being in a wealthy white neighborhood they had few Black role models other than their parents and what they saw on TV. On TV, the fashionable Black stereotype was the gangsta, which, interestingly, resembeled few of the many actual gang members I spent most of my youth surrounded by. Another thing that was new to me at the time was the emphasis on actually trying to attain the outward appearance of those stereotypes, since in an urban setting conformity is treated in a very different and much more complex way. That's why what became known as 'wiggers' was always predominantly, though by no means exclusively, a suburban phenomenon brought about by media delivered stereotypes.
Most people want to place the blame on either media portrayals or african-americans themselves, but my impresssion is that it's really a vicious circle.
We learn about race through other forms of socialization than the media, too, as Groverat pointed out in his first post. If people just indict individuals for failing to transcend their socialized environments or only indict the media for its socializing power, then I think they are missing something. It's a circle, to be sure, but one that spreads culpability to a variety of agents. More than one or two at least.
I would like to think that the free market isn't inherently biased towards matters of gender, race, and sexual orientation. Instead, I think two things: 1) that historically we built into the system discrimination along those lines and 2) that the market allows such discrimination to occur as what sells is often divorced from what's right. But isn't it a bad business decision for Target to practically ignore, as Groverat found out, the demographics of its main shoppers?
Maybe. But then again, maybe not. People need cheap goods within a relatively close distance and with a reasonable amount of safety during shopping (safe walk/ drive to store, good neighborhood of store, well-lit parking lot, etc). Maybe some of those minority shoppers don't have a choice, or their choices are more limited than others? So they shop there. We can only guess. Some kind of sociological survey like: "Minority Experiences of Shopping at Target, Univ. Tex" would enlighten us
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
No, just pasty. The rest is details. And yes, I do have a thing for central/eastern europeans. This is well documented.
I am a black male and the hardest thing for me to deal with is that somehow being very knowledgable about computers or anything else for that matter, is somehow "acting white". I've been told by a many of whites and a few blacks that I dont act like other black guys. Im glad I dont because if running around with my pants hang off and screaming rap lyrics looking like a dumbass is acting "black" then I'd rather act "white" anyday.
Unfortunate, protostar. A lot of kids at my college (white) act like "wiggers" or "wiggas." OK even I've been accused of this! Sorta the flip side of the coin I guess. Kids these days...
Unfortunate, protostar. A lot of kids at my college (white) act like "wiggers" or "wiggas." OK even I've been accused of this! Sorta the flip side of the coin I guess. Kids these days...
When I was growing up in chicago, hip-hop was extremely multi-cultural. Graffiti, for instance, there was no clear ethnic majority at all. At least in the 80s you would see that somewhat reflected in popular media, but as hip-hop solidified its commercial character in the 90s it became strongly defined as part of Black culture (not that it isn't, but it's not that simple). Hip-hop at one point meant nonconformity. It was an artistic endeavor that relied on the intrisic diversity of the strong, unique characters of its participants.
That's where the kids (all family backgrounds) of the mid/late 90s through today have gone so wrong. Back then, following the Dead could be just as 'hip-hop' as gangbanging, if not more, since the emphasis was on the style of artistic expression and the understanding of inclusiveness.
This isn't to say that hip-hop doesn't have strong Black roots, but it's far more complicated than that. Also important is that each part was born out of urban poverty. Hip-hop was long a combination of disciplines that primarily were skills (with the exception of DJing) that could be developed with no funds, outdoors and with other people.
n my experience, some good has come out of it. Out of my old crew, most of whom grew up with below average incomes, all leveraged either the skills they learned or the approach to self-development to become fairly successful, doing everything from music to gov't, and a whole lot of stuff in between.
I don't know how it is today, and I'm pretty disconnected from it at this point. But one of my other overall points is that if there is a way for ambitious disadvantaged young people to strive for something, it can be a huge help. I hope that it snowballs and that within a couple generations we won't have the same disparity that has plagued this country for so long.
Can anybody explain those hand guestures that the hip-hop/rap crowd makes. Do they actually mean anything?
Is it some sort of piss take on Italians (no offense).
Dobby.
Hand gestures can mean a lot of things. "W" for westside. Gang sets etc.
As for the "your acting(insert ethnicity here)" that comes from the natural desire for humans to understand the people around them. Thus, when I see an Asian I simply can recall all the stereotypes I've been deluged with growing up and I feel like I just may know that person in small ways. When you imbue a characteristic that is wholly unlike what people are used to seeing they respond by telling you "you're acting" as if to say they know your base characteristic follows their prejudice and you're simply modifying your behavior. It's pretty much manipulation
Comments
Originally posted by ShawnJ
I guess someone living in Mormon country, such as yourself, would know a thing or two about colonization.
Indeed. The mormons were violently oppressed at every turn throughout most of their history and settled in Utah for no other reason than that they thought it would suit their needs and was at the same time so rugged no one would want to take it from them. And lookee! People keep steaming in here, telling the mormons that they need to conform to mainstream American culture and give up the values they hold. And if they're not streaming in here, they're beaming their message in through the TV and movies.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Marginalized white groups (mormons, southern/eastern europeans) are actually pretty interesting to read about.
Indeed. Don't forget the Irish.
Originally posted by midwinter
Indeed. Don't forget the Irish.
Modern anecdote: I've never spent much time on the east coast (although lots and lots of short trips). However, a few years ago I was sitting in Bradley international for an hour or so across from an aer lingus jet, and I overheard no less than 3 derogatory comments prompted only by that jet being there. Yeah, I know I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was.
Originally posted by giant
Modern anecdote: I've never spent much time on the east coast (although lots and lots of short trips). However, a few years ago I was sitting in Bradley international for an hour or so across from an aer lingus jet, and I overheard no less than 3 derogatory comments prompted by that jet being there. Yeah, I know I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was.
My roommate (of Irish descent) in college had a sign on his wall: "Help wanted. No Irish need apply."
Originally posted by hmurchison
I'm still waiting for bandaids for people of color. Ever notice how silly they look with the bright bandaids of today?
But no worries..everyone is so hellbent on breeding out their color with whites pretty soon we'll all be the same damn shade.
Ever read Noughts and Crosses? (Malorie Blackman). It's a story of a reality where blacks (known as Crosses) are the ruling classes and whites (the Noughts) are struggling for equality.
Just reminded me because she makes a point about the colour of plasters (band-aids) in there.
(BTW, for any non-Brits, Noughts and Crosses is the game that the USA calls Tic-tac-toe - hence the title being a pun on that.)
Amorya
Originally posted by giant
Modern anecdote: I've never spent much time on the east coast (although lots and lots of short trips). However, a few years ago I was sitting in Bradley international for an hour or so across from an aer lingus jet, and I overheard no less than 3 derogatory comments prompted only by that jet being there. Yeah, I know I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was.
Odd. I hear Irish (and Polish) jokes all the time, and comments/stereotypes that could be taken as derogatory. However, they're never serious. They're jokes because they're ridiculous, not because they're taken to be true. I can make jokes about being black with my friends who are black because they know I don't mean it. I wonder if some of these cases are the same kind of thing. If some people heard what I've said to my friends out of context, they might think I'm Karl K. Klan.
I've yet to really encounter any prejudice against the Irish in the US. The East coast and Mid-west populations are particularly aware of their ethnic groups, Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Swedes, etc., much moreso it seems than people out West or in the South. (My experience in the south is that you're white, latino or black. Period.) But the ethnic prejudices seem to have died off for the most part with my grandparent's generation. People are still very aware of their heritages and of the old sterotypes, but I don't know of anyone under the age of 75 who takes them seriously.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Odd. I hear Irish (and Polish) jokes all the time, and comments/stereotypes that could be taken as derogatory.
That's the thing. Since I spend most of my time in Chicago I never, ever do. Out west I never, ever do. I just don't hear ethnic jokes at all. When I was in grade school there were the polish jokes and jamaican jokes, but we were kids. My impression when I heard those comments in the airport was that they were derogatory, but I could be wrong.
However, when I (3rd gen irish-american) was living outside of detroit, in houston and when I've been in a couple other places down south, I've had a whole lot of whites make a whole lot of off the cuff racist anti-black comments to me as apparently some sort of white bonding thing, more so in the detroit area than anywhere, but certainly a lot in a number of places.
I have a couple guesses about why these Black kids acted this way. Obviously, being in a wealthy white neighborhood they had few Black role models other than their parents and what they saw on TV. On TV, the fashionable Black stereotype was the gangsta, which, interestingly, resembeled few of the many actual gang members I spent most of my youth surrounded by. Another thing that was new to me at the time was the emphasis on actually trying to attain the outward appearance of those stereotypes, since in an urban setting conformity is treated in a very different and much more complex way. That's why what became known as 'wiggers' was always predominantly, though by no means exclusively, a suburban phenomenon brought about by media delivered stereotypes.
Most people want to place the blame on either media portrayals or african-americans themselves, but my impresssion is that it's really a vicious circle.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Pasty, vampish chicks with black hair and dark red lipstick, right?
No, just pasty. The rest is details. And yes, I do have a thing for central/eastern europeans. This is well documented.
I would like to think that the free market isn't inherently biased towards matters of gender, race, and sexual orientation. Instead, I think two things: 1) that historically we built into the system discrimination along those lines and 2) that the market allows such discrimination to occur as what sells is often divorced from what's right. But isn't it a bad business decision for Target to practically ignore, as Groverat found out, the demographics of its main shoppers?
Maybe. But then again, maybe not. People need cheap goods within a relatively close distance and with a reasonable amount of safety during shopping (safe walk/ drive to store, good neighborhood of store, well-lit parking lot, etc). Maybe some of those minority shoppers don't have a choice, or their choices are more limited than others? So they shop there. We can only guess. Some kind of sociological survey like: "Minority Experiences of Shopping at Target, Univ. Tex" would enlighten us
Originally posted by Splinemodel
No, just pasty. The rest is details. And yes, I do have a thing for central/eastern europeans. This is well documented.
I like Czech girls.
Originally posted by Aquatic
Unfortunate, protostar. A lot of kids at my college (white) act like "wiggers" or "wiggas." OK even I've been accused of this! Sorta the flip side of the coin I guess. Kids these days...
you gotta stop calling yourself KMoney, bro
That's where the kids (all family backgrounds) of the mid/late 90s through today have gone so wrong. Back then, following the Dead could be just as 'hip-hop' as gangbanging, if not more, since the emphasis was on the style of artistic expression and the understanding of inclusiveness.
This isn't to say that hip-hop doesn't have strong Black roots, but it's far more complicated than that. Also important is that each part was born out of urban poverty. Hip-hop was long a combination of disciplines that primarily were skills (with the exception of DJing) that could be developed with no funds, outdoors and with other people.
n my experience, some good has come out of it. Out of my old crew, most of whom grew up with below average incomes, all leveraged either the skills they learned or the approach to self-development to become fairly successful, doing everything from music to gov't, and a whole lot of stuff in between.
I don't know how it is today, and I'm pretty disconnected from it at this point. But one of my other overall points is that if there is a way for ambitious disadvantaged young people to strive for something, it can be a huge help. I hope that it snowballs and that within a couple generations we won't have the same disparity that has plagued this country for so long.
Is it some sort of piss take on Italians (no offense).
Dobby.
Originally posted by dobby
Can anybody explain those hand guestures that the hip-hop/rap crowd makes. Do they actually mean anything?
Is it some sort of piss take on Italians (no offense).
Dobby.
Hand gestures can mean a lot of things. "W" for westside. Gang sets etc.
As for the "your acting(insert ethnicity here)" that comes from the natural desire for humans to understand the people around them. Thus, when I see an Asian I simply can recall all the stereotypes I've been deluged with growing up and I feel like I just may know that person in small ways. When you imbue a characteristic that is wholly unlike what people are used to seeing they respond by telling you "you're acting" as if to say they know your base characteristic follows their prejudice and you're simply modifying your behavior. It's pretty much manipulation