Uh, what's the reason to go Dell? Why not go to a local builder?
If I wasn't building a computer on my own, I'd go to a local computer vendor, one that will build a machine from components you specify, and give a warranty of the machine as a whole. Practically speaking, that means the warranty covers troubleshooting - after all, the components already have warranties. At least where I live there are tons of places like this. They have ads on local newspapers and on local websites. Even if you don't spec your own, and you go with one of their pre-configured machines, a company like this will know what they're doing, and the price is reasonable.
You can also send the specs to a few different stores and ask for an offer. I'd buy the display separately, since they have a good warranty anyway, plug and play, and are a big cost item that you can well get cheaper elsewhere. Or you can try to haggle so that you buy also the display from company #1 if they meet the cheapest price elsewhere. You win, they win.
This is what you should be looking for, since you are going to run games. This spec list is also good enough to send to builders and ask for offer, they will figure out the exact components.
processor: AMD Athlon64 2800+
memory: 512MB - Windows and games don't really care if you have more
video card: ATi 9600XT or better (more expensive but good bang for buck options are ATi 9800 Pro, nVidia 6600GT)
sound, network, Firewire: integrated on motherboard
Add DVD burner and other stuff you might want.
If you look at this Anandtech guide, you'll notice the price (with one of the better video cards) should be around $850, without display. In the Anandtech listing you see a display; its price will be consumed by the building fee and slightly more expensive components compared to the bargain prices Anandtech uses.
I can't understand why you are fighting me on this - you know Linux is better... (more stable, more reliable, simple to use)
Why are you PC users so entranced with Dell???
You guys KNOW how easy it is to build PC's - why don't you help me convince this guy that he can do it -save a ton of money - and LEARN something in the process.
Tech support can be found ANYWHERE on the internet. Software bundles are not good because they overcharge for software you don't need.
Also, Cake, he COULD buy a Cadega subscription if you wouldn't keep convincing him that DELL is the only way to go.
What kind of computer techs are you guys anyway???
They should rename this the "Sell Out" Forum.
Why are you fighting with Cygsid, who has made it relatively clear that he doesn't want to build a PC? He's made no move to indicate that he wants to run Linux either.
Go help out the person in the Genius bar who is asking for help to build a PC - they could actually use the advice.
And oh yes stay away from Emachine built by gateway.
P4 2.8GHz Hyperthread
2x512 Dual Channel DDR PC3200 400MHZ
Video-128 or 256 NVidia GForce
(I have played HL2 on both ATI & GForce)
120Gb HDD
Creative Sound 5.1 Channel
CDRW/DVD Combo drive
17" Flat Panet TFT Monitor
You could always get a Firewire card later if you wish.....
So that the MAC firewire components also will work with PC
ie; MACALLEY
What sort of a messed up spec list is that?
I understand you picked an Intel processor because that's all Dell sells, but that's all the more reason to stay away from Dell.
Games won't care about 1GB of memory vs 512MB of memory. Not yet anyway. And in productivity work you'd have to be a hardcore Photoshopper / media worker to see the difference. Windows is bad at using memory.
"128 or 256 NVidia GForce"? Uh, they actually have a few different types of graphics card. They have $50 cards and they have $500 cards, and tens of choices in between... and so does ATi. Each maker's cards will kick butt vs the competitor's cheaper cards. Currently $200 is a very nice pricepoint to be at, because that's where you find GeForce 6600GT (PCI-E). If the motherboard has AGP and not PCI Express, then I think it's a tossup between the slightly more expensive 6600GT AGP, and the less expensive 9800Pro. For games you should not go much below $150. The 9600XT is somewhere near that price, but significantly slower than the $200 cards.
Creative sound? Unless the computer is attached to a top notch audio system, integrated sound off mobo is good enough. They're currently putting in 7.1 channel chips in some mobos.
You get Firewire if you have a decent motherboard. Again, if Dell doesn't have it, don't pick Dell. That simple.
Have you ever heard of Cadega? Using this program in Linux, you can run ANY PC game effortlessly.
What, "Linux" and "effortlessly" appearing together? The end of the world is upon us.
Quote:
you're a fool if you think Linux is a lot of work and incapable of running Halo 2 or any other Processor intensive game.
As demonstrated by Doom 3, but Halo 2 is currently an XBox only game. If it is released for Windows, then Linux will probably be able to run it through WINE/etc., but I strongly suspect it won't be a simple as running it under real Windows.
Quote:
Games won't care about 1GB of memory vs 512MB of memory. Not yet anyway.
Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 already use more than 512MB, if you're using non-low detail textures.
I'm not convinced that you do save money over Dell by building it yourself. Here in the UK I'd have a hard job building a games PC myself that's cheaper than Dell's Dimension 5000. The only thing I wouldn't buy from Dell is the graphics card, as they only seem to offer high end GPUs on their more expensive XPS series, for markup and bonus markup on the system. However, I would like to see Dell shifting some AMD CPU options...
Finally some posts from people know know something about computers.
It would help the discussion if you offered answers: which cases, which boards, which CPUs, which cards, etc. All I've seen from you so far is bluster and handwaving.
If you know what there is to know about PC gaming rigs, why not add your knowledge to the discussion?
For what it's worth: Here's Ars Technica's recommendations for gaming boxes.
Google "Dell Outrageous Deals". Get one of those systems (P4 3.2ghz for a great price. Screw this "nothing but AMD!" crap, the P4 does quite well).
Hey, it ain't "nothing but AMD!", I'm not a fanboy at all. It's a fact that, looking at the component prices, an Athlon64 3000+ is significantly (like 25%) cheaper than P4 3.2GHz. Looking at benchmarks, it's equally fast in gaming.
If there is no great incentive to go the other way, A64 is the processor you should pick. The Dell deals, which I have no clue about here in Finland, might be such an incentive.
Stoo, I didn't say the games don't use the memory, just that they don't really care. I recall there isn't much of a difference in framerates between 512MB and 1GB, but couldn't find a benchmark with a quick google at this point.
Memory is also probably the easiest thing to add later, if desired.
Geesh, Mac nuts fighting over a PC, DISGUSTING! So anyway, my two cents are.
Buy an HP, business class (NOT THEIR CONSUMER SHITT!). Their good solid machines with a great warranty and without Dells motto of just give them the hardware flavor of the month.
The dc7100?s are nice, under a grand.
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
Intel® Pentium® 4 3.40GHz/800 with HT Technology
512MB DDR/400(2X256)
80GB Serial ATA hard drive (7200rpm)
48X DVD-ROM/CDRW combo drive
Since it is a business computer the graphics option is embedded, but that?s nothing a little trip to Fry?s or Comp can?t fix. I would stay away from self-built computers; you don?t need any more hassles or headaches in you life. Even if these so called self proclaimed computer profits say it?s the easiest thing in the world. Been there done that, give me a warranty thank you. The HP is a plug-in play workhorse and more then capable of running you?re aforementioned requirements.
Been there done that, give me a warranty thank you. The HP is a plug-in play workhorse and more then capable of running you?re aforementioned requirements.
Gah.. at that price you should get a lot more, the GPU should be included, and a good one no less! How does that HP beat the vendors who have good deals and who also give a warranty?
Gah.. at that price you should get a lot more, the GPU should be included, and a good one no less! How does that HP beat the vendors who have good deals and who also give a warranty?
Yeah, kind of reminds you of an Apple. You get what you pay for, performance, reliability, support and ease of use. Plus you?ll have to shoot it to kill it.
Yeah, kind of reminds you of an Apple. You get what you pay for, performance, reliability, support and ease of use. Plus you?ll have to shoot it to kill it.
performance -> you're not getting more, you're getting less
reliability -> show the proof. How does a logo stamped on top of quality components give more reliability? Not that the big companies *cough* Dell *cough* always use quality components, but you get the idea.
support -> this might be a good time to point out you don't actually get any support from Apple, unless you pay more still... I'm not sure about HP, but I expect standard "support" to be able to answer elementary setup questions only. No way it covers anything useful you might attempt to do with your PC - you're always going to be using other software than the one that arrives in the package. On Mac this is wee bit different.
ease of use -> just what's the difference between ease of use of two ready assembled Windows PC's? It's Windows, the same you get in the another box.
This thread is deja vu for me, because about 6 months ago I was in the market for an x86 box to complement my iBook. Supposedly the major reason I needed it was to run a Windows-only genome analysis package, but I also wanted a fast, cheap, always-on box for gaming, number crunching, browsing, etc. And I wanted to learn Linux. My price range was $500-ish, sans monitor.
I looked long and hard at DIY, and eventually concluded that it didn't make sense. I would have to buy a Windows license, and that $200 would be almost half my budget. Even if I had a copy of Windows, no matter how I priced it, DIY was still be more expensive than the manufacturers for the same specs in my price range. I think DIY makes sense for expensive gaming rigs where the margins are higher, but the mass-volume manufactures are in business for a reason - they can buy components and build computers cheaper than you can.
I finally settled on a mid-range eMachines tower, and I couldn't be happier. I knew they had an awful reputation from their early years, but the recent reviews (since they got bought by Gateway) were very favorable. And the box was a great deal. Everything I wanted - and nothing I didn't - for exactly my target price. Athlon XP3000+, 512MB, 160GB, CD-RW/DVD-ROM, integrated GeForce4 on the nForce2 motherboard. Plus card readers as a bonus. No way could I build a comparable box for $500.
The gaming performance is fine for Halo and Half-Life, although I'm guessing I'll need a "real" video card if I want to play the sequels. And it's been rock-solid reliable. I dual-boot Gentoo Linux and WinXP - XP for gaming and that genome analysis software, Linux for everything else. There are distros that are as easy to install as Windows, and even Gentoo was remarkably straight-forward for a newbie, as long as you can follow detailed instructions. My only complaint is that I can't get Quake1 to run right under either Linux or WinXP.
performance -> you're not getting more, you're getting less
What are you comparing here?
Quote:
reliability -> show the proof. How does a logo stamped on top of quality components give more reliability? Not that the big companies *cough* Dell *cough* always use quality components, but you get the idea.
First, I don?t have to go out and buy those quality parts. Second, going with a logo should give you a little piece of mind that this thing was at least tested and approved by a person before shipment.
Quote:
support -> this might be a good time to point out you don't actually get any support from Apple, unless you pay more still... I'm not sure about HP, but I expect standard "support" to be able to answer elementary setup questions only. No way it covers anything useful you might attempt to do with your PC - you're always going to be using other software than the one that arrives in the package. On Mac this is wee bit different.
What I mean by support is not ?how do I insert a CD-ROM? but by the time and effort it takes to get a replacement machine or part when the occasion arises. HP is one of the best I?ve dealt with in this regard.
Quote:
ease of use -> just what's the difference between ease of use of two ready assembled Windows PC's? It's Windows, the same you get in the another box.
Were talking about hardware here and what company produces a good machine that fits the requirements of the thread starter. Obviously these machines will have Windows and obviously will run the same version. Ease of use is for; great online driver support, tool-less entry and component removal, well laid out internals and the ability to handle almost all OS?s with full hardware support.
HP spends a lot of time and effort in testing a new model before it releases to the public. These efforts go unlooked most of the time, but you appreciate them when you have a problem or simply want to install a exotic OS like MorphOS and how simply it works with no component replacement.
Comments
If I wasn't building a computer on my own, I'd go to a local computer vendor, one that will build a machine from components you specify, and give a warranty of the machine as a whole. Practically speaking, that means the warranty covers troubleshooting - after all, the components already have warranties. At least where I live there are tons of places like this. They have ads on local newspapers and on local websites. Even if you don't spec your own, and you go with one of their pre-configured machines, a company like this will know what they're doing, and the price is reasonable.
You can also send the specs to a few different stores and ask for an offer. I'd buy the display separately, since they have a good warranty anyway, plug and play, and are a big cost item that you can well get cheaper elsewhere. Or you can try to haggle so that you buy also the display from company #1 if they meet the cheapest price elsewhere. You win, they win.
This is what you should be looking for, since you are going to run games. This spec list is also good enough to send to builders and ask for offer, they will figure out the exact components.
processor: AMD Athlon64 2800+
memory: 512MB - Windows and games don't really care if you have more
video card: ATi 9600XT or better (more expensive but good bang for buck options are ATi 9800 Pro, nVidia 6600GT)
sound, network, Firewire: integrated on motherboard
Add DVD burner and other stuff you might want.
If you look at this Anandtech guide, you'll notice the price (with one of the better video cards) should be around $850, without display. In the Anandtech listing you see a display; its price will be consumed by the building fee and slightly more expensive components compared to the bargain prices Anandtech uses.
Originally posted by RIAA Board Admin
I can't understand why you are fighting me on this - you know Linux is better... (more stable, more reliable, simple to use)
Why are you PC users so entranced with Dell???
You guys KNOW how easy it is to build PC's - why don't you help me convince this guy that he can do it -save a ton of money - and LEARN something in the process.
Tech support can be found ANYWHERE on the internet. Software bundles are not good because they overcharge for software you don't need.
Also, Cake, he COULD buy a Cadega subscription if you wouldn't keep convincing him that DELL is the only way to go.
What kind of computer techs are you guys anyway???
They should rename this the "Sell Out" Forum.
Why are you fighting with Cygsid, who has made it relatively clear that he doesn't want to build a PC? He's made no move to indicate that he wants to run Linux either.
Go help out the person in the Genius bar who is asking for help to build a PC - they could actually use the advice.
Originally posted by eyelevel
Just go to Dell and get one SAVE TIME AND MONEY
And oh yes stay away from Emachine built by gateway.
P4 2.8GHz Hyperthread
2x512 Dual Channel DDR PC3200 400MHZ
Video-128 or 256 NVidia GForce
(I have played HL2 on both ATI & GForce)
120Gb HDD
Creative Sound 5.1 Channel
CDRW/DVD Combo drive
17" Flat Panet TFT Monitor
You could always get a Firewire card later if you wish.....
So that the MAC firewire components also will work with PC
ie; MACALLEY
What sort of a messed up spec list is that?
I understand you picked an Intel processor because that's all Dell sells, but that's all the more reason to stay away from Dell.
Games won't care about 1GB of memory vs 512MB of memory. Not yet anyway. And in productivity work you'd have to be a hardcore Photoshopper / media worker to see the difference. Windows is bad at using memory.
"128 or 256 NVidia GForce"? Uh, they actually have a few different types of graphics card. They have $50 cards and they have $500 cards, and tens of choices in between... and so does ATi. Each maker's cards will kick butt vs the competitor's cheaper cards. Currently $200 is a very nice pricepoint to be at, because that's where you find GeForce 6600GT (PCI-E). If the motherboard has AGP and not PCI Express, then I think it's a tossup between the slightly more expensive 6600GT AGP, and the less expensive 9800Pro. For games you should not go much below $150. The 9600XT is somewhere near that price, but significantly slower than the $200 cards.
Creative sound? Unless the computer is attached to a top notch audio system, integrated sound off mobo is good enough. They're currently putting in 7.1 channel chips in some mobos.
You get Firewire if you have a decent motherboard. Again, if Dell doesn't have it, don't pick Dell. That simple.
Google "Dell Outrageous Deals". Get one of those systems (P4 3.2ghz for a great price. Screw this "nothing but AMD!" crap, the P4 does quite well).
Buy your RAM (if needed) and video card upgrades separate. Install those yourself.
Building your own is also fun. I've gone both routes, and the Cheap Dell + upgrades route was by far the cheapest.
Have you ever heard of Cadega? Using this program in Linux, you can run ANY PC game effortlessly.
What, "Linux" and "effortlessly" appearing together? The end of the world is upon us.
you're a fool if you think Linux is a lot of work and incapable of running Halo 2 or any other Processor intensive game.
As demonstrated by Doom 3, but Halo 2 is currently an XBox only game. If it is released for Windows, then Linux will probably be able to run it through WINE/etc., but I strongly suspect it won't be a simple as running it under real Windows.
Games won't care about 1GB of memory vs 512MB of memory. Not yet anyway.
Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 already use more than 512MB, if you're using non-low detail textures.
I'm not convinced that you do save money over Dell by building it yourself. Here in the UK I'd have a hard job building a games PC myself that's cheaper than Dell's Dimension 5000. The only thing I wouldn't buy from Dell is the graphics card, as they only seem to offer high end GPUs on their more expensive XPS series, for markup and bonus markup on the system. However, I would like to see Dell shifting some AMD CPU options...
Originally posted by RIAA Board Admin
Finally some posts from people know know something about computers.
It would help the discussion if you offered answers: which cases, which boards, which CPUs, which cards, etc. All I've seen from you so far is bluster and handwaving.
If you know what there is to know about PC gaming rigs, why not add your knowledge to the discussion?
For what it's worth: Here's Ars Technica's recommendations for gaming boxes.
Originally posted by groverat
Google "Dell Outrageous Deals". Get one of those systems (P4 3.2ghz for a great price. Screw this "nothing but AMD!" crap, the P4 does quite well).
Hey, it ain't "nothing but AMD!", I'm not a fanboy at all. It's a fact that, looking at the component prices, an Athlon64 3000+ is significantly (like 25%) cheaper than P4 3.2GHz. Looking at benchmarks, it's equally fast in gaming.
If there is no great incentive to go the other way, A64 is the processor you should pick. The Dell deals, which I have no clue about here in Finland, might be such an incentive.
Stoo, I didn't say the games don't use the memory, just that they don't really care. I recall there isn't much of a difference in framerates between 512MB and 1GB, but couldn't find a benchmark with a quick google at this point.
Memory is also probably the easiest thing to add later, if desired.
512MB is now definitely the minimum RAM in a games PC.
Buy an HP, business class (NOT THEIR CONSUMER SHITT!). Their good solid machines with a great warranty and without Dells motto of just give them the hardware flavor of the month.
The dc7100?s are nice, under a grand.
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
Intel® Pentium® 4 3.40GHz/800 with HT Technology
512MB DDR/400(2X256)
80GB Serial ATA hard drive (7200rpm)
48X DVD-ROM/CDRW combo drive
Since it is a business computer the graphics option is embedded, but that?s nothing a little trip to Fry?s or Comp can?t fix. I would stay away from self-built computers; you don?t need any more hassles or headaches in you life. Even if these so called self proclaimed computer profits say it?s the easiest thing in the world. Been there done that, give me a warranty thank you. The HP is a plug-in play workhorse and more then capable of running you?re aforementioned requirements.
Originally posted by Relic
Been there done that, give me a warranty thank you. The HP is a plug-in play workhorse and more then capable of running you?re aforementioned requirements.
Gah.. at that price you should get a lot more, the GPU should be included, and a good one no less! How does that HP beat the vendors who have good deals and who also give a warranty?
Originally posted by Gon
Gah.. at that price you should get a lot more, the GPU should be included, and a good one no less! How does that HP beat the vendors who have good deals and who also give a warranty?
Yeah, kind of reminds you of an Apple. You get what you pay for, performance, reliability, support and ease of use. Plus you?ll have to shoot it to kill it.
Originally posted by Relic
Yeah, kind of reminds you of an Apple. You get what you pay for, performance, reliability, support and ease of use. Plus you?ll have to shoot it to kill it.
performance -> you're not getting more, you're getting less
reliability -> show the proof. How does a logo stamped on top of quality components give more reliability? Not that the big companies *cough* Dell *cough* always use quality components, but you get the idea.
support -> this might be a good time to point out you don't actually get any support from Apple, unless you pay more still... I'm not sure about HP, but I expect standard "support" to be able to answer elementary setup questions only. No way it covers anything useful you might attempt to do with your PC - you're always going to be using other software than the one that arrives in the package. On Mac this is wee bit different.
ease of use -> just what's the difference between ease of use of two ready assembled Windows PC's? It's Windows, the same you get in the another box.
I looked long and hard at DIY, and eventually concluded that it didn't make sense. I would have to buy a Windows license, and that $200 would be almost half my budget. Even if I had a copy of Windows, no matter how I priced it, DIY was still be more expensive than the manufacturers for the same specs in my price range. I think DIY makes sense for expensive gaming rigs where the margins are higher, but the mass-volume manufactures are in business for a reason - they can buy components and build computers cheaper than you can.
I finally settled on a mid-range eMachines tower, and I couldn't be happier. I knew they had an awful reputation from their early years, but the recent reviews (since they got bought by Gateway) were very favorable. And the box was a great deal. Everything I wanted - and nothing I didn't - for exactly my target price. Athlon XP3000+, 512MB, 160GB, CD-RW/DVD-ROM, integrated GeForce4 on the nForce2 motherboard. Plus card readers as a bonus. No way could I build a comparable box for $500.
The gaming performance is fine for Halo and Half-Life, although I'm guessing I'll need a "real" video card if I want to play the sequels. And it's been rock-solid reliable. I dual-boot Gentoo Linux and WinXP - XP for gaming and that genome analysis software, Linux for everything else. There are distros that are as easy to install as Windows, and even Gentoo was remarkably straight-forward for a newbie, as long as you can follow detailed instructions. My only complaint is that I can't get Quake1 to run right under either Linux or WinXP.
performance -> you're not getting more, you're getting less
What are you comparing here?
reliability -> show the proof. How does a logo stamped on top of quality components give more reliability? Not that the big companies *cough* Dell *cough* always use quality components, but you get the idea.
First, I don?t have to go out and buy those quality parts. Second, going with a logo should give you a little piece of mind that this thing was at least tested and approved by a person before shipment.
support -> this might be a good time to point out you don't actually get any support from Apple, unless you pay more still... I'm not sure about HP, but I expect standard "support" to be able to answer elementary setup questions only. No way it covers anything useful you might attempt to do with your PC - you're always going to be using other software than the one that arrives in the package. On Mac this is wee bit different.
What I mean by support is not ?how do I insert a CD-ROM? but by the time and effort it takes to get a replacement machine or part when the occasion arises. HP is one of the best I?ve dealt with in this regard.
ease of use -> just what's the difference between ease of use of two ready assembled Windows PC's? It's Windows, the same you get in the another box.
Were talking about hardware here and what company produces a good machine that fits the requirements of the thread starter. Obviously these machines will have Windows and obviously will run the same version. Ease of use is for; great online driver support, tool-less entry and component removal, well laid out internals and the ability to handle almost all OS?s with full hardware support.
HP spends a lot of time and effort in testing a new model before it releases to the public. These efforts go unlooked most of the time, but you appreciate them when you have a problem or simply want to install a exotic OS like MorphOS and how simply it works with no component replacement.