well, i've ordered one 12"pb. but the following article makes me wonder if waiting till Apple "un-crippels" their new small jewell isn't the best option (Rev.B, B for Better?)
Why not wait for Rev C? - I'm sure it will surpass Rev B.
Throw some Altivec tests (iTunes rip, P-Shop) in there and the iBook would sucking wind. Also there's no reason to believe that the vid drivers for the GeForce are final. If you do decide to cancel your order I get the impression that someone will take your place in line pretty quickly
Edit: Plus RAM performance is nearly double that of the iBook - that's a difference that will be very noticeable in everyday use.
If you do decide to cancel your order I get the impression that someone will take your place in line pretty quickly
</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]<strong> If I wanted a smaller PowerBook and was considering the 12" PowerBook, I would still want all the features of the 17" and would be willing to pay for them. I would want a 1GHz CPU, not an 867 MHz. I would want 1GB of RAM, not 640MB. I would want a GeForce4 440 Go, not a 420 "Slow." I would want FireWire 800, not 400. I believe it's mistake to "strip" and "low ball" the 12" PowerBook.
Hey, the guy runs a benchmarking site - he wants it all and then some and is will to pay for it; I'm not. Regarding the RAM - they may come out with 1Gb DDR SO-DIMMs - I'm typing this on a Wallstreet with 512MB - max RAM was supposed to be 192MB). It's too early to accurately ascertain the 12" PB's performance. If you are that worried, wait till the dust settles.
The 12" PB is not a desktop replacement - if you are going to be using this computer for a few years as your primary machine then you might want to listen to Masker,
No hard feelings on barefeats, but this guy has a long history of dissing every new mac that came around, probably thinking that his bad input was going to make apple put even more effort into things THEY cannot change (the CPU).
It's all a little hypocrite on that page.
According to him, the MDDs suck, however, if you have ever used one, you know they FLY!
The 12" MidgetBook is, even when lacking in some respects, a very powerful notebook given its size, price and performance.
I like how he test machines without actually having them available to test. He accidentally admitted once when he used an Xserve to simulate another machine. Whatever. It's nice for the package and is nearly twice as fast as an iBook, not as fast as the L3 Powerbooks, but fast enough for a mini laptop.
I think the reason people are arguing so much about the 12" PowerBook is because it's such a perfect halfway point between the iBook and the PowerBook lines. I think that says something good about it.
Well I myself am on the fence since learning that there was no level 3 cache. The only reason I am on the fence of course is because I already have a very nice Powerbook 500 which is still a pretty kick butt machine. I might have to wait for the first revision now. :-)
I think the 12" PB seems like the best laptop ever.
However, the GPU should be substituted with a better one or a better one should be offered as an option. Logical explanation follows.
I can always upgrade the memory or hard drive in a laptop, or pop in a PCMCIA expansion card. The major performance-related things that I can't change are CPU and GPU. For quite some time, the GPU's have been the fastest developing part of these two. Thus, to keep the computer usable for the longest time in varied use, the choice of GPU is more critical than CPU.
For Apple, the resource allocation between GPU and CPU should be tipped even further on the GPU side because their G4 processors are significantly more expensive than the ones used in other PC's.
The difference in consumer price between 867 MHz and 1GHz G4:s seems to be a little more than 100$, maybe 150$ (my estimate, based on Apple Store pricing). Sink that much more in the GPU and you could be looking at 50-100% total speed increase in 3D applications despite a slower processor, versus 10-15% speed increase in all applications that you'd get with the CPU. Lots of people (every gamer I think) would choose the GPU. On the other hand, if you don't need 3D, whatever GPU you have, it's performance will go to waste. This is why both better GPU and CPU should be available to choose.
In response to the guy earlier who said the 12" is not a desktop replacement. You're right...to a point. I'm a freelancer designer who is replacing my QuickSilver 800MHz with the 12". Nearly all the same specs + portibility. At $1799, you really can't beat it.
<strong>I think the 12" PB seems like the best laptop ever.
However, the GPU should be substituted with a better one or a better one should be offered as an option. Logical explanation follows.
...</strong><hr></blockquote>I mostly agree with this reasoning. Don't skimp on something that can't be upgraded.
However, here's another angle. GPU performance has increased phenomenally when compared to CPU performance gains. For most apps (other than games) the current graphics chips are more than capable of delivering flawless refresh rates. With better drivers and hardware accelerated scrolling through quartz, the 12" Al Powerbook should scream. The GPU will only be the bottle-neck when playing 3D games.
<strong>However, here's another angle. GPU performance has increased phenomenally when compared to CPU performance gains. For most apps (other than games) the current graphics chips are more than capable of delivering flawless refresh rates. With better drivers and hardware accelerated scrolling through quartz, the 12" Al Powerbook should scream. The GPU will only be the bottle-neck when playing 3D games.</strong><hr></blockquote>If you read through my post again, you'll notice I already covered that angle. I just wrote with the tone of one who does want the 3D performance.
I believe the Powerbook 12inch was a last minute decision, hence the rip-off ibook design. This is Apple saying we have no new technology to give, so here is a high margin computer that seems new and competitive. My recommendation to all is wait; the 12inch right now is not worth the investment. 4200 rpm drive, 867mhz with no L3 cache, slow Geoforce 2 with a 4 in front, slow bus, slow ram all for a great price of 1800.00. One more thing, stop bad mouthing barefeats, every benchmark test that comes out this board rips the person who did it because it wasn?t done under a specific mandatory environment or lighting. If you think you can do better then do it, I thought it was pretty cool of the guy to take the time and risk confrontation from an Apple employee to do this for us.
AU contrare, it's one of the only good values in Apple's line-up. The case is most certainly not a rip off. I can't remember how many time people have posted that the ideal case would meld the design of the iBook and Powerbook G4. Well, that's exactly what this new model does, design wise. You'll note the PB12 is smaller in every single dimension than the iBook 12, there's no way they could have recycled the case. It is completely new, not just an iBook with a slot loader grafted on.
And barefeats is a dog. They have routinely tested machines with different amounts of installed RAM; in the past they've even SIMULATED machines they didn't actually have, and they routinely compare models to the wrong predecessor, eg DP1Ghz DDR to DP1Ghz SDR comparo, all well and good, except that the DP1Ghz DDR replaced the SP933 SDR, quite a difference when you compare it to the same machine it replaces at the smae price and not a machine that cost a lot more just a week before.
And they make the mistakes here too. A 1299 iBook and 1799PB are just about different enough to justify the price.
G4 867 over G3 800, it's faster even with less L2. It's faster at FP, and will leave the iBook behind by a factor of 2 or more when doing anything altivec related. Go ahead, encode some video, scroll a big list of iPhotos, rip an MP3, see what happens. The G4 will leave even the Sahara sucking wind, and the faster system bus will make a difference when dealing with larger files.
Built in bluetooth is a nice bonus, as is 802.11g compliance (for the same price as 802.11b).
Graphics? The iBook probably has the better GPU, but hamstrings by running it at 2X, the PB runs a 4X AGP bus and supports spanning. Even if, or when, you hack the iBook to support spanning, 2X WILL become a limitation on your ability to deliver fast graphics and QE (at larger display resolutions). On the PB12, the 4MX will fully stretch its legs with 4X access to 266DDR speed (remember that only the CPU is FSB limited, though in this case to 133 vs 100 on the iBook). If you span a large display, you will notice. If you game at 1024x768, you won't notice any difference between the two.
<strong>I believe the Powerbook 12inch was a last minute decision, hence the rip-off ibook design. This is Apple saying we have no new technology to give, so here is a high margin computer that seems new and competitive.</strong><hr></blockquote>Last minute decision? Muaaa haaa haaa <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Sure, they just took a bandsaw to the pieces and then duct taped everything back together. No need for market research, engineering, testing, production retooling, or quality control.
That tv commerical with Yao Ming and whathisname was filmed over a month ago. That means a decision was made at least two months and probably 3 months ago to go with the 12" Powerbook. You cannont make a "last minute decision" and have the product shipping within 30 days. Get real!
I would wait for 1GB DDR RAM and 1GHz G4 or IBM 970 with a PCMCIA slot, DVI, backlit keyboard, and FireWire 800 before I would consider it ready for prime time. This first edition is too close to the iBook to be worth pursuing yet.
Comments
forgot something..
Throw some Altivec tests (iTunes rip, P-Shop) in there and the iBook would sucking wind. Also there's no reason to believe that the vid drivers for the GeForce are final. If you do decide to cancel your order I get the impression that someone will take your place in line pretty quickly
Edit: Plus RAM performance is nearly double that of the iBook - that's a difference that will be very noticeable in everyday use.
[ 01-09-2003: Message edited by: JJ_WI ]</p>
reportedly...
<strong>Why not wait for Rev C?
If you do decide to cancel your order I get the impression that someone will take your place in line pretty quickly
</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]<strong> If I wanted a smaller PowerBook and was considering the 12" PowerBook, I would still want all the features of the 17" and would be willing to pay for them. I would want a 1GHz CPU, not an 867 MHz. I would want 1GB of RAM, not 640MB. I would want a GeForce4 440 Go, not a 420 "Slow." I would want FireWire 800, not 400. I believe it's mistake to "strip" and "low ball" the 12" PowerBook.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
please convince me this is WRONG....
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
NEXT!
MSKR
[ 01-09-2003: Message edited by: Masker ]</p>
<strong>
please convince me this is WRONG....
Hey, the guy runs a benchmarking site - he wants it all and then some and is will to pay for it; I'm not. Regarding the RAM - they may come out with 1Gb DDR SO-DIMMs - I'm typing this on a Wallstreet with 512MB - max RAM was supposed to be 192MB). It's too early to accurately ascertain the 12" PB's performance. If you are that worried, wait till the dust settles.
The 12" PB is not a desktop replacement - if you are going to be using this computer for a few years as your primary machine then you might want to listen to Masker,
It's all a little hypocrite on that page.
According to him, the MDDs suck, however, if you have ever used one, you know they FLY!
The 12" MidgetBook is, even when lacking in some respects, a very powerful notebook given its size, price and performance.
G-news
[ 01-09-2003: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
Nick
However, the GPU should be substituted with a better one or a better one should be offered as an option. Logical explanation follows.
I can always upgrade the memory or hard drive in a laptop, or pop in a PCMCIA expansion card. The major performance-related things that I can't change are CPU and GPU. For quite some time, the GPU's have been the fastest developing part of these two. Thus, to keep the computer usable for the longest time in varied use, the choice of GPU is more critical than CPU.
For Apple, the resource allocation between GPU and CPU should be tipped even further on the GPU side because their G4 processors are significantly more expensive than the ones used in other PC's.
The difference in consumer price between 867 MHz and 1GHz G4:s seems to be a little more than 100$, maybe 150$ (my estimate, based on Apple Store pricing). Sink that much more in the GPU and you could be looking at 50-100% total speed increase in 3D applications despite a slower processor, versus 10-15% speed increase in all applications that you'd get with the CPU. Lots of people (every gamer I think) would choose the GPU. On the other hand, if you don't need 3D, whatever GPU you have, it's performance will go to waste. This is why both better GPU and CPU should be available to choose.
- Gon
In response to the guy earlier who said the 12" is not a desktop replacement. You're right...to a point. I'm a freelancer designer who is replacing my QuickSilver 800MHz with the 12". Nearly all the same specs + portibility. At $1799, you really can't beat it.
<strong>I think the 12" PB seems like the best laptop ever.
However, the GPU should be substituted with a better one or a better one should be offered as an option. Logical explanation follows.
...</strong><hr></blockquote>I mostly agree with this reasoning. Don't skimp on something that can't be upgraded.
However, here's another angle. GPU performance has increased phenomenally when compared to CPU performance gains. For most apps (other than games) the current graphics chips are more than capable of delivering flawless refresh rates. With better drivers and hardware accelerated scrolling through quartz, the 12" Al Powerbook should scream. The GPU will only be the bottle-neck when playing 3D games.
<strong>However, here's another angle. GPU performance has increased phenomenally when compared to CPU performance gains. For most apps (other than games) the current graphics chips are more than capable of delivering flawless refresh rates. With better drivers and hardware accelerated scrolling through quartz, the 12" Al Powerbook should scream. The GPU will only be the bottle-neck when playing 3D games.</strong><hr></blockquote>If you read through my post again, you'll notice I already covered that angle. I just wrote with the tone of one who does want the 3D performance.
- Gon
And barefeats is a dog. They have routinely tested machines with different amounts of installed RAM; in the past they've even SIMULATED machines they didn't actually have, and they routinely compare models to the wrong predecessor, eg DP1Ghz DDR to DP1Ghz SDR comparo, all well and good, except that the DP1Ghz DDR replaced the SP933 SDR, quite a difference when you compare it to the same machine it replaces at the smae price and not a machine that cost a lot more just a week before.
And they make the mistakes here too. A 1299 iBook and 1799PB are just about different enough to justify the price.
G4 867 over G3 800, it's faster even with less L2. It's faster at FP, and will leave the iBook behind by a factor of 2 or more when doing anything altivec related. Go ahead, encode some video, scroll a big list of iPhotos, rip an MP3, see what happens. The G4 will leave even the Sahara sucking wind, and the faster system bus will make a difference when dealing with larger files.
Built in bluetooth is a nice bonus, as is 802.11g compliance (for the same price as 802.11b).
Graphics? The iBook probably has the better GPU, but hamstrings by running it at 2X, the PB runs a 4X AGP bus and supports spanning. Even if, or when, you hack the iBook to support spanning, 2X WILL become a limitation on your ability to deliver fast graphics and QE (at larger display resolutions). On the PB12, the 4MX will fully stretch its legs with 4X access to 266DDR speed (remember that only the CPU is FSB limited, though in this case to 133 vs 100 on the iBook). If you span a large display, you will notice. If you game at 1024x768, you won't notice any difference between the two.
<strong>I believe the Powerbook 12inch was a last minute decision, hence the rip-off ibook design. This is Apple saying we have no new technology to give, so here is a high margin computer that seems new and competitive.</strong><hr></blockquote>Last minute decision? Muaaa haaa haaa <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Sure, they just took a bandsaw to the pieces and then duct taped everything back together. No need for market research, engineering, testing, production retooling, or quality control.
[ 01-16-2003: Message edited by: Multimedia ]</p>