I don't know if this is what you're asking about, but as far as duals vs. singles go, lots of people here will say that duals are great and that having a dual 867 is basically like having a single 1734. I don't agree. IMO, the duals are useful under these conditions:
1. You're using a dual-aware app.
2. You've got two apps crunching away at the same time.
Except for those two cases, you're basically running a single 867. Unless you're spending lots of time waiting for Photoshop filters to complete, you're probably better off with a faster single than slower duals.
I just got my Belkin DBT from MacMall for $40.99 shipped. The option on the BTO from Apple is $50.
With my USB hub attached, I've got USB ports up the wazoo, and the ergonomics of home office made the left-hand port on my keyboard relatively useless for anything but my Bluetooth adaptor.
So why wouldn't I spend less money to have a Bluetooth adaptor that I can put in my pocket and take with me to use on my computer at work as well as the one at home, at school, at my mother's, etc.? Internal Bluetooth on anything but a laptop makes no sense to me. It is all smoke, no fire.
Speaking of fire, how many devices are out there that will take advantage of FW800? For that matter, how many actually uses all the potential of FW 400?
If your main app is SMP aware (like Photoshop), you'd see better results with the Dual 867. If it's not, you'd be better off with the 1 Ghz.
Firewire 800 is a non-issue for now, but in 6-8 months there will be products that take advantage of it. Will you be moving large amounts of data between hard drives or from digital cameras?
Same with Airport Extreme. It's only useful if you'll be moving lots of data within your network. Even standard Airport is faster than most home DSL/cable modem connections.
So it's really a matter of what you'll use now, and in the forseeable future.
We're not on Mac OS 9 anymore. Unless you're locked into a lot of legacy Mac applications, dual processors come in quite frequently. Most Cocoa apps have two threads at the bare minimum. Mail.app uses threading extensively, as does Safari, as does OmniWeb (in fact, Omni's quite fond of threads, so anyone who uses their excellent suite of applications will benefit). iTunes threads execution as well, and also Sherlock and Finder. For that matter, so does OS X itself.
Anything that uses threads can take advantage of multiple processors. At this point it's hard to find apps that don't. I can't remember, but I think even an Carbon app as crufty as IE uses threads...
As far as I'm concerned, the dual 867 packs more punch, and will deliver a much smoother experience overall. The single 1GHz will show a slight speed advantage in limited circumstances, and it also offers some other features that might be valuable or at least future-proof (FW800, AirPort Extreme, Bluetooth, quieter operation).
Even a non-threaded application, like Bryce, will still be better with a dual machine because you can run it on one processor and other processes on the other processor. It will only take full advantage of one, but if you're doing anything else it won't slow down nearly as much.
<strong>I don't know if this is what you're asking about, but as far as duals vs. singles go, lots of people here will say that duals are great and that having a dual 867 is basically like having a single 1734. I don't agree. IMO, the duals are useful under these conditions:
1. You're using a dual-aware app.
2. You've got two apps crunching away at the same time.
Except for those two cases, you're basically running a single 867. Unless you're spending lots of time waiting for Photoshop filters to complete, you're probably better off with a faster single than slower duals.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So basically 1GHz model is almost same than double 867MHz model. I also think that 1GHz is faster, if you don't use Photoshop etc...
<strong> it also offers some other features that might be valuable or at least future-proof (FW800, AirPort Extreme, Bluetooth, quieter operation).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
quieter operation? interesting... this is really important to me .. what makes you say that? have you seen any reports about noise levels vs the previous MDDs?
If these new babies are quieter them I'm getting one!
So basically 1GHz model is almost same than double 867MHz model. I also think that 1GHz is faster, if you don't use Photoshop etc...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, I'd listen more to Amorph than Brussel. As an actual owner of a Dual 800, I ran some quick and dirty tests using iTunes, IE, and Quicktime and I found that whether you're running a single app or multiple apps, the second processor is kept busy. The only possible exception to this is games. But even there a DP800 is gonna keep that second processor most likely 25% busy at least due to OpenGL and MacOS activity.
Wow, you guys are really freakin out wrt this new tower. Especially you, frank_t.
This tower is going to deliver noticeably better gaming performance, where the second processor is usually not utilized (An exception to this would be Giants, but really now, how many porting houses are as cool as the Omni Group? ). OS X makes wonderfull use of dual processors, honestly though Jag is going to be just as smoove on both towers, and isn't it all about pwning in Ghost Recon anyways?
quieter operation? interesting... this is really important to me .. what makes you say that? have you seen any reports about noise levels vs the previous MDDs?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, and so did Apple. They stressed in a MacCentral interview that they knew the problem had frustrated a lot of their customers, and they'd worked hard to make the new towers run quieter.
I'd wait for some sort of third-party verification before leaping in with both feet, but Apple is claiming that the new towers will satisfy the people who held off on the last PMs because of the noise issue.
I still think this tower is a colossal rip off at 1500USD. For that money it ought to include at least the fastest single PPC available if not two slower duals. For 200USD less you now get about 50-70% less processing power. That sucks and can in now way be construed as an upgrade.
Firewire800 is inconsequential for a PM. Want drives? You have room to mount them internally and save yourself a whole lotta cash. When FW800 cameras come out you can either continue to use FW400 though at a slower speed (they are compatible you know) or you can spend 50 bucks on a PCI card. Apple's PCI bus has more than enough bandwidth for FW800 (and FW1600 too!)
Getting back to the chips in use. A 1Ghz G4 is absurdly cheap, I would venture that it doesn't cost more than 100USD now. Typically the top line G4 costs about 300USD, so there's at least one expensive bit in the DP1.42 (600-700USD worth of PPC's) But there's nothing that costs any money at all in the SP1Ghz. If they wanted to go SP on the low-end for strategic reasons, they ought to have dropped a single 1.42 in there with 2MB of L2.
Now there really isn't any room to do anything with the iMac, and with an iMac coming in close to 1500, with similar specs, a display and superdrive included (after the next rev, probably 1700 or so) Apple will have successfully turned the entry PM inot a non-starter. Way to reach for that other 95%.
I see more customers downgrading to an iMac (which will certainly have a lower margin than that awful excuse for a PM) than going after one of the DP machines. 970 looms: for desktop buyers this is not the year to splurge on hardware. You most certainly don't touch these upgrades if you already have a mac (tower or otherwise) and if you don't, you buy an laptop or a machine to tide you over.
STUPID STUPID STUPID FVCKINGAPPLE!!!
I guess Steve will be happy because he can again inflate the sales figure of the iMac with purchasers unwilling to get raped on a low-end mac, but that really only hurts Apple as towers are without question the cheapest machines to slap together.
Comments
- optional Airport Extreme
- optional internal Bluetooth
- 64 MB of Vram (as opposed to 32 in the dual 867)
- a Firewire 800 port
- an audio line in jack
Yes, the new single-1GHz has 1MB less. The dual-867 has 1MB L3 per processor.
1. You're using a dual-aware app.
2. You've got two apps crunching away at the same time.
Except for those two cases, you're basically running a single 867. Unless you're spending lots of time waiting for Photoshop filters to complete, you're probably better off with a faster single than slower duals.
I just got my Belkin DBT from MacMall for $40.99 shipped. The option on the BTO from Apple is $50.
With my USB hub attached, I've got USB ports up the wazoo, and the ergonomics of home office made the left-hand port on my keyboard relatively useless for anything but my Bluetooth adaptor.
So why wouldn't I spend less money to have a Bluetooth adaptor that I can put in my pocket and take with me to use on my computer at work as well as the one at home, at school, at my mother's, etc.? Internal Bluetooth on anything but a laptop makes no sense to me. It is all smoke, no fire.
Speaking of fire, how many devices are out there that will take advantage of FW800? For that matter, how many actually uses all the potential of FW 400?
Firewire 800 is a non-issue for now, but in 6-8 months there will be products that take advantage of it. Will you be moving large amounts of data between hard drives or from digital cameras?
Same with Airport Extreme. It's only useful if you'll be moving lots of data within your network. Even standard Airport is faster than most home DSL/cable modem connections.
So it's really a matter of what you'll use now, and in the forseeable future.
Anything that uses threads can take advantage of multiple processors. At this point it's hard to find apps that don't. I can't remember, but I think even an Carbon app as crufty as IE uses threads...
As far as I'm concerned, the dual 867 packs more punch, and will deliver a much smoother experience overall. The single 1GHz will show a slight speed advantage in limited circumstances, and it also offers some other features that might be valuable or at least future-proof (FW800, AirPort Extreme, Bluetooth, quieter operation).
[ 01-29-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
<strong>I don't know if this is what you're asking about, but as far as duals vs. singles go, lots of people here will say that duals are great and that having a dual 867 is basically like having a single 1734. I don't agree. IMO, the duals are useful under these conditions:
1. You're using a dual-aware app.
2. You've got two apps crunching away at the same time.
Except for those two cases, you're basically running a single 867. Unless you're spending lots of time waiting for Photoshop filters to complete, you're probably better off with a faster single than slower duals.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So basically 1GHz model is almost same than double 867MHz model. I also think that 1GHz is faster, if you don't use Photoshop etc...
<strong> it also offers some other features that might be valuable or at least future-proof (FW800, AirPort Extreme, Bluetooth, quieter operation).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
quieter operation? interesting... this is really important to me .. what makes you say that? have you seen any reports about noise levels vs the previous MDDs?
If these new babies are quieter them I'm getting one!
Please more info if anyone knows about this...
<a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=002041"; target="_blank">Are new PowerMacs quieter?</a>
<strong>
So basically 1GHz model is almost same than double 867MHz model. I also think that 1GHz is faster, if you don't use Photoshop etc...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, I'd listen more to Amorph than Brussel. As an actual owner of a Dual 800, I ran some quick and dirty tests using iTunes, IE, and Quicktime and I found that whether you're running a single app or multiple apps, the second processor is kept busy. The only possible exception to this is games. But even there a DP800 is gonna keep that second processor most likely 25% busy at least due to OpenGL and MacOS activity.
This tower is going to deliver noticeably better gaming performance, where the second processor is usually not utilized (An exception to this would be Giants, but really now, how many porting houses are as cool as the Omni Group?
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: serrano ]</p>
<strong> isn't it all about pwning in Ghost Recon anyways?
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: serrano ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not? Now that the GR 1.4 patch is out, I would have to say that a new G4 decision IS all about pwning in Ghost Recon! :0)
<strong>
quieter operation? interesting... this is really important to me .. what makes you say that? have you seen any reports about noise levels vs the previous MDDs?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, and so did Apple. They stressed in a MacCentral interview that they knew the problem had frustrated a lot of their customers, and they'd worked hard to make the new towers run quieter.
I'd wait for some sort of third-party verification before leaping in with both feet, but Apple is claiming that the new towers will satisfy the people who held off on the last PMs because of the noise issue.
Firewire800 is inconsequential for a PM. Want drives? You have room to mount them internally and save yourself a whole lotta cash. When FW800 cameras come out you can either continue to use FW400 though at a slower speed (they are compatible you know) or you can spend 50 bucks on a PCI card. Apple's PCI bus has more than enough bandwidth for FW800 (and FW1600 too!)
Getting back to the chips in use. A 1Ghz G4 is absurdly cheap, I would venture that it doesn't cost more than 100USD now. Typically the top line G4 costs about 300USD, so there's at least one expensive bit in the DP1.42 (600-700USD worth of PPC's) But there's nothing that costs any money at all in the SP1Ghz. If they wanted to go SP on the low-end for strategic reasons, they ought to have dropped a single 1.42 in there with 2MB of L2.
Now there really isn't any room to do anything with the iMac, and with an iMac coming in close to 1500, with similar specs, a display and superdrive included (after the next rev, probably 1700 or so) Apple will have successfully turned the entry PM inot a non-starter. Way to reach for that other 95%.
I see more customers downgrading to an iMac (which will certainly have a lower margin than that awful excuse for a PM) than going after one of the DP machines. 970 looms: for desktop buyers this is not the year to splurge on hardware. You most certainly don't touch these upgrades if you already have a mac (tower or otherwise) and if you don't, you buy an laptop or a machine to tide you over.
STUPID STUPID STUPID FVCKING APPLE!!!
I guess Steve will be happy because he can again inflate the sales figure of the iMac with purchasers unwilling to get raped on a low-end mac, but that really only hurts Apple as towers are without question the cheapest machines to slap together.
One step forward, 20 leagues back. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> Idiots!