Folks, nobody likes anti-Thurrot threads better than I do. If we can keep the personal attacks on each other to zero, this can go on as long as you like. Don't be afraid to call Thurrot any name you wish - just not each other.
while everyone is bashing this review of a pro ms guy, here is something I found amusing,, the guy obviously doesnt love ms that much... why you ask? go to the bottom of the review and you will see..
If you can look past Apple's corporate bravado, you'll see that Tiger is one impressive cat. And unlike Longhorn, it's shipping now. What a concept.
atleast he knocks microsoft for not actually shipping.
The Thurrott bashing is really pretty sad. People are cherry-picking individual sentences, zoning out the rest, ignoring context, and demonizing him.
If some people would actually read the review, there is nothing particularly wrong with it. So he doesn't think Tiger is a huge update. His opinion is that it contains 2 major updates and many many smaller but useful ones. So what? Big deal. That's a completely fair assessment and opinion.
I'd give Thurrot more respect if he just didn't say stupid things like "Tiger is more like a Windows Service Pack" that's what destroys his credibility above all.
I'm looking forward to Tiger but that doesn't mean I wish to make silly and provacative statements about it.
Hey, what major features is Longhorn going to have (in it's original release), that OSX doesn't have? [/B]
His opinion is no more or less valid than yours, I'm sorry to inform you. Add it was a Tiger review. Longhorn has nothing to do with it. Besides, he plainly made statements regarding features that Tiger has that Longhorn will (or won't) have next year. Since it wasn't even a Longhorn article, the comparisons he did make were adequate.
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I'd give Thurrot more respect if he just didn't say stupid things like "Tiger is more like a Windows Service Pack" that's what destroys his credibility above all.
But that's not exactly what he said. He said, "Windows XP Service Pack 2 (SP2) was arguably a similar advance over the initial release of XP compared to what Tiger offers over Mac OS X 10.3."
Saying Tiger is to Panther as SP2 was to XP is an entirely valid opinion from where I sit. I don't agree *entirely*, but I am not going to go so far as to claim he's a fool or that he loses credibility just because he feels that way. Personally I think Tiger is bigger than a service pack, but it's not worth $130 to me either, as a 10.3.9 user.
He openly said as a pretext that Tiger was a minor upgrade to a "well-designed and rock-solid operating system." I mean, seriously, anything less than calling Tiger God's gift to computing seems to be an insult to some people. They should ease up on the kool aid just a tad.
Saying Tiger is to Panther as SP2 was to XP is an entirely valid opinion from where I sit. I don't agree *entirely*, but I am not going to go so far as to claim he's a fool or that he loses credibility just because he feels that way. Personally I think Tiger is bigger than a service pack, but it's not worth $130 to me either, as a 10.3.9 user.
Well opinions as to minor/major can be each his own, but payment is different.
Any product physical or mathematical in this case requires production cost. that means major $$$. Apple charging $130 instead of "free"( which is SP2) is comparatively wrong.
Tiger has a lot of man hours stuck into it. Along with R&D, patents etc. Comparing a free update with SP2 dev cost vs Tiger dev cost in the same league is folly.
Now saying tiger should be worth $60 instead of $130, that is opinion.
If Tiger is a minor upgrade unworthy of its own point release, then why can Microsoft deliver more or less the same thing (metadata searches, desktop integrated web apps, graphical window management) in another two years and call it a whole new operating system (equivalent to the 2000 > XP switch)? What a silly man.
Longhorn has nothing to do with it. Besides, he plainly made statements regarding features that Tiger has that Longhorn will (or won't) have next year. Since it wasn't even a Longhorn article, the comparisons he did make were adequate.
Thanks for dodging my question. Longhorn has everything to do with it. He said that Tiger is a minor upgrade - if that is the case, I would like to know what MAJOR feature is missing. An obvious solution would be to see what Longhorn will have, since I can only assume it will be a major upgrade (unless he thinks it's going to be a minor upgrade as well)
Thurrott and all the rest of the winlots can say whatever they want. Face it. In a few days we will be USING Tiger.
They on the other hand, will be talking about Longhorn. And talking. And talking. And talking.
Of course Thurrott says some nice things in his article. But he has trouble going all of the way. He always has to bring it back with crazy statements that quickly make you forget his compliments. This could change in the next year a little as he and the rest keep on talking about Longhorn. And talking. And talking.
Well opinions as to minor/major can be each his own, but payment is different.
Any product physical or mathematical in this case requires production cost. that means major $$$. Apple charging $130 instead of "free"( which is SP2) is comparatively wrong.
Tiger has a lot of man hours stuck into it. Along with R&D, patents etc. Comparing a free update with SP2 dev cost vs Tiger dev cost in the same league is folly.
Now saying tiger should be worth $60 instead of $130, that is opinion.
SP2 came out almost 4 years after XP. It's not something they threw together over a weekend. There was a considerable amount of development cost and time behind it as well. So the point is still valid as I see it.
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\tIf Tiger is a minor upgrade unworthy of its own point release, then why can Microsoft deliver more or less the same thing (metadata searches, desktop integrated web apps, graphical window management) in another two years and call it a whole new operating system (equivalent to the 2000 > XP switch)? What a silly man.
You're still taking it out of context. He never said anything about it not being worthy of being a point release.
He said it was a minor upgrade over 10.3. Any point release could be considered minor over its previous. If your definition of "minor" is strictly something like 10.3.8 to 10.3.9, then you're not looking at it from the same perspective he is.
Longhorn isn't equivalent to a point release. It's like going from 10.0 to 10.4 in a jump. Again his opinions aren't any less valid than yours. The only difference is that he has a platform to tell his opinion on. But big deal.
Quote:
Thanks for dodging my question. Longhorn has everything to do with it. He said that Tiger is a minor upgrade - if that is the case, I would like to know what MAJOR feature is missing. An obvious solution would be to see what Longhorn will have, since I can only assume it will be a major upgrade (unless he thinks it's going to be a minor upgrade as well)
Actually I think you dodged the point. Saying Tiger is a minor upgrade over Panther on an already well-designed and rock-solid operating system has nothing to do with Longhorn, nor is it an insult, except to zealots looking for things to cherry-pick and rip apart.
Longhorn is a different beast on a different schedule. It's a 5 year "catch up" for XP. MS hasn't released service packs every year for the last 5. Over XP, it's major because it's their equivalent to going from 10.0 to 10.4 in a jump. But if someone thinks 10.4 is minor over 10.3, it's is a valid opinion. You don't have to agree with it, but some people crucifying him for feeling that way is asinine.
That is why I don't think it's comparable. Longhorn isn't the equivalent to a service pack, nor is it equivalent to a point release. If you want to pick and prune what features Longhorn will or won't have compared to Tiger, that's fine. But that's not his point. If you're trying to debate is the size of the upgrade over its predecessor, there's no doubt that Longhorn is larger in scope for them.
That doesn't mean it's "better" than 10.4. That debate is still out for another year.
That doesn't mean it's "better" than 10.4. That debate is still out for another year.
And by then, (if Longhorn does come out in a year which has been mentioned to be pushed back again) Tiger will have had several "point" releases. Heck, maybe 10.5 will be close.
Longhorn will have to be a monumental change to keep up. It's taking them this long to go from XP. They are pruning features. Taking some out and trying to port them to XP.
What will be next after Longhorn? How many years? How fast will Longhorn be adopted?
OS X started fresh. From the ground up. It will have a lot of legs and appears easier to advance. MS doesn't have the luxury of starting over and eventually this will really hurt them. Not in the next few years but they are only prolonging the agony of a bloated OS.
And again. At this point, all it is is talk, talk, talk.
Well, nobody's debating that. Even the review says, "And unlike Longhorn, it's shipping now. What a concept."
But I'll hold judgement on Longhorn until it comes out. Naturally Apple fans will declare victory no matter what, just as Windows fans will, so I won't be basing my opinion on reviews. I'll make up my mind by being hands-on.
But for what it's worth, a lot of Longhorn's under the hood stuff is ground-up code too. Eventually, though not right away, they can get to a point where they can pump out the updates more easily. That's when it'll get interesting. But that is a ways off still.
SP2 came out almost 4 years after XP. It's not something they threw together over a weekend. There was a considerable amount of development cost and time behind it as well. So the point is still valid as I see it.
2 years after sp1 more or less. And time does not = cost. A 5 man team working part time does not = a 50 man team working full time.
We had 1.3 -> 1.3.9. can you honesty say it took the same amount of money as Tiger? They're both pretty much in the same time frame.
P.S. not to mention SP and 10.3x "minor" updates have mostly trickle down bug fixes from major dev products, Tiger, longhorn, Server03
So the XP service packs alter almost every OS feature.
I see Tiger Mail changes, Address Book additions, iChat changes, Safari new features, dashboard, spotlight, quicktime, DVD player, Preview, System Preferences, and some system utilities that are either redesigned or have added features. And these being the most surface changes to the experience.
I can't see how this compares to a service pack, unless they also alter every app as well.
Heh, a new car still has cruise control, antilock brakes, airbags, power seats, and maybe one new feature (navigation), but I don't think there is any comparison when it comes to fit and finish, the overall experience improvements.
2 years after sp1 more or less. And time does not = cost. A 5 man team working part time does not = a 50 man team working full time.
Do you have any data suggesting SP2 was a 5-man part-time team or anything even resembling that notion? Of course you don't. It's even been widely reported that they even backed off of Longhorn to finish SP2. It was a large staff, full-time project by any legitimate account.
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We had 1.3 -> 1.3.9. can you honesty say it took the same amount of money as Tiger? They're both pretty much in the same time frame.
Going from 10.3.0 to 10.3.9? No. Those were definitely small, incremental bug fixes and such. MS releases those regularly as well (as we are all too aware).
Quote:
I can't see how this compares to a service pack, unless they also alter every app as well.
It doesn't compare quite in the same way. SP2 was more security oriented than changing UI and adding features. And most of the features they did add were security-oriented. In that regard they did a good amount of work.
Do you have any data suggesting SP2 was a 5-man part-time team or anything even resembling that notion? Of course you don't. It's even been widely reported that they even backed off of Longhorn to finish SP2. It was a large staff, full-time project by any legitimate account.
Yes, it was a huge undertaking, they did stop Longhorn for it. And for what? To simply plug the massive security holes that they left when rushing XP out the door.
Comments
I don't lock threads. Keep at it.
If you can look past Apple's corporate bravado, you'll see that Tiger is one impressive cat. And unlike Longhorn, it's shipping now. What a concept.
atleast he knocks microsoft for not actually shipping.
If some people would actually read the review, there is nothing particularly wrong with it. So he doesn't think Tiger is a huge update. His opinion is that it contains 2 major updates and many many smaller but useful ones. So what? Big deal. That's a completely fair assessment and opinion.
Hey, what major features is Longhorn going to have (in it's original release), that OSX doesn't have?
You need not have your opinions: you can have them, as long as they're the same opinions that apologists have.
Tiger is great, Longhorn sux (although they haven't seen it at all). Apple is great, Microsoft sux. Steve Jobs is smart, Bill Gates is stupid.
This is the only review of Tiger that will not lead to reviewer bashing, and constant bickering. Hum-hum!
I'd give Thurrot more respect if he just didn't say stupid things like "Tiger is more like a Windows Service Pack" that's what destroys his credibility above all.
I'm looking forward to Tiger but that doesn't mean I wish to make silly and provacative statements about it.
It's just scary of what "trusted computing" can do at full tilt.
Hey, what major features is Longhorn going to have (in it's original release), that OSX doesn't have? [/B]
His opinion is no more or less valid than yours, I'm sorry to inform you. Add it was a Tiger review. Longhorn has nothing to do with it. Besides, he plainly made statements regarding features that Tiger has that Longhorn will (or won't) have next year. Since it wasn't even a Longhorn article, the comparisons he did make were adequate.
I'd give Thurrot more respect if he just didn't say stupid things like "Tiger is more like a Windows Service Pack" that's what destroys his credibility above all.
But that's not exactly what he said. He said, "Windows XP Service Pack 2 (SP2) was arguably a similar advance over the initial release of XP compared to what Tiger offers over Mac OS X 10.3."
Saying Tiger is to Panther as SP2 was to XP is an entirely valid opinion from where I sit. I don't agree *entirely*, but I am not going to go so far as to claim he's a fool or that he loses credibility just because he feels that way. Personally I think Tiger is bigger than a service pack, but it's not worth $130 to me either, as a 10.3.9 user.
He openly said as a pretext that Tiger was a minor upgrade to a "well-designed and rock-solid operating system." I mean, seriously, anything less than calling Tiger God's gift to computing seems to be an insult to some people. They should ease up on the kool aid just a tad.
Saying Tiger is to Panther as SP2 was to XP is an entirely valid opinion from where I sit. I don't agree *entirely*, but I am not going to go so far as to claim he's a fool or that he loses credibility just because he feels that way. Personally I think Tiger is bigger than a service pack, but it's not worth $130 to me either, as a 10.3.9 user.
Well opinions as to minor/major can be each his own, but payment is different.
Any product physical or mathematical in this case requires production cost. that means major $$$. Apple charging $130 instead of "free"( which is SP2) is comparatively wrong.
Tiger has a lot of man hours stuck into it. Along with R&D, patents etc. Comparing a free update with SP2 dev cost vs Tiger dev cost in the same league is folly.
Now saying tiger should be worth $60 instead of $130, that is opinion.
Originally posted by nowayout11
Longhorn has nothing to do with it. Besides, he plainly made statements regarding features that Tiger has that Longhorn will (or won't) have next year. Since it wasn't even a Longhorn article, the comparisons he did make were adequate.
Thanks for dodging my question. Longhorn has everything to do with it. He said that Tiger is a minor upgrade - if that is the case, I would like to know what MAJOR feature is missing. An obvious solution would be to see what Longhorn will have, since I can only assume it will be a major upgrade (unless he thinks it's going to be a minor upgrade as well)
They on the other hand, will be talking about Longhorn. And talking. And talking. And talking.
Of course Thurrott says some nice things in his article. But he has trouble going all of the way. He always has to bring it back with crazy statements that quickly make you forget his compliments. This could change in the next year a little as he and the rest keep on talking about Longhorn. And talking. And talking.
Originally posted by Kuku
Well opinions as to minor/major can be each his own, but payment is different.
Any product physical or mathematical in this case requires production cost. that means major $$$. Apple charging $130 instead of "free"( which is SP2) is comparatively wrong.
Tiger has a lot of man hours stuck into it. Along with R&D, patents etc. Comparing a free update with SP2 dev cost vs Tiger dev cost in the same league is folly.
Now saying tiger should be worth $60 instead of $130, that is opinion.
SP2 came out almost 4 years after XP. It's not something they threw together over a weekend. There was a considerable amount of development cost and time behind it as well. So the point is still valid as I see it.
\tIf Tiger is a minor upgrade unworthy of its own point release, then why can Microsoft deliver more or less the same thing (metadata searches, desktop integrated web apps, graphical window management) in another two years and call it a whole new operating system (equivalent to the 2000 > XP switch)? What a silly man.
You're still taking it out of context. He never said anything about it not being worthy of being a point release.
He said it was a minor upgrade over 10.3. Any point release could be considered minor over its previous. If your definition of "minor" is strictly something like 10.3.8 to 10.3.9, then you're not looking at it from the same perspective he is.
Longhorn isn't equivalent to a point release. It's like going from 10.0 to 10.4 in a jump. Again his opinions aren't any less valid than yours. The only difference is that he has a platform to tell his opinion on. But big deal.
Thanks for dodging my question. Longhorn has everything to do with it. He said that Tiger is a minor upgrade - if that is the case, I would like to know what MAJOR feature is missing. An obvious solution would be to see what Longhorn will have, since I can only assume it will be a major upgrade (unless he thinks it's going to be a minor upgrade as well)
Actually I think you dodged the point. Saying Tiger is a minor upgrade over Panther on an already well-designed and rock-solid operating system has nothing to do with Longhorn, nor is it an insult, except to zealots looking for things to cherry-pick and rip apart.
Longhorn is a different beast on a different schedule. It's a 5 year "catch up" for XP. MS hasn't released service packs every year for the last 5. Over XP, it's major because it's their equivalent to going from 10.0 to 10.4 in a jump. But if someone thinks 10.4 is minor over 10.3, it's is a valid opinion. You don't have to agree with it, but some people crucifying him for feeling that way is asinine.
That is why I don't think it's comparable. Longhorn isn't the equivalent to a service pack, nor is it equivalent to a point release. If you want to pick and prune what features Longhorn will or won't have compared to Tiger, that's fine. But that's not his point. If you're trying to debate is the size of the upgrade over its predecessor, there's no doubt that Longhorn is larger in scope for them.
That doesn't mean it's "better" than 10.4. That debate is still out for another year.
Originally posted by nowayout11
That doesn't mean it's "better" than 10.4. That debate is still out for another year.
And by then, (if Longhorn does come out in a year which has been mentioned to be pushed back again) Tiger will have had several "point" releases. Heck, maybe 10.5 will be close.
Longhorn will have to be a monumental change to keep up. It's taking them this long to go from XP. They are pruning features. Taking some out and trying to port them to XP.
What will be next after Longhorn? How many years? How fast will Longhorn be adopted?
OS X started fresh. From the ground up. It will have a lot of legs and appears easier to advance. MS doesn't have the luxury of starting over and eventually this will really hurt them. Not in the next few years but they are only prolonging the agony of a bloated OS.
And again. At this point, all it is is talk, talk, talk.
But I'll hold judgement on Longhorn until it comes out. Naturally Apple fans will declare victory no matter what, just as Windows fans will, so I won't be basing my opinion on reviews. I'll make up my mind by being hands-on.
But for what it's worth, a lot of Longhorn's under the hood stuff is ground-up code too. Eventually, though not right away, they can get to a point where they can pump out the updates more easily. That's when it'll get interesting. But that is a ways off still.
SP2 came out almost 4 years after XP. It's not something they threw together over a weekend. There was a considerable amount of development cost and time behind it as well. So the point is still valid as I see it.
2 years after sp1 more or less. And time does not = cost. A 5 man team working part time does not = a 50 man team working full time.
We had 1.3 -> 1.3.9. can you honesty say it took the same amount of money as Tiger? They're both pretty much in the same time frame.
P.S. not to mention SP and 10.3x "minor" updates have mostly trickle down bug fixes from major dev products, Tiger, longhorn, Server03
I see Tiger Mail changes, Address Book additions, iChat changes, Safari new features, dashboard, spotlight, quicktime, DVD player, Preview, System Preferences, and some system utilities that are either redesigned or have added features. And these being the most surface changes to the experience.
I can't see how this compares to a service pack, unless they also alter every app as well.
Heh, a new car still has cruise control, antilock brakes, airbags, power seats, and maybe one new feature (navigation), but I don't think there is any comparison when it comes to fit and finish, the overall experience improvements.
Originally posted by Kuku
2 years after sp1 more or less. And time does not = cost. A 5 man team working part time does not = a 50 man team working full time.
Do you have any data suggesting SP2 was a 5-man part-time team or anything even resembling that notion? Of course you don't. It's even been widely reported that they even backed off of Longhorn to finish SP2. It was a large staff, full-time project by any legitimate account.
We had 1.3 -> 1.3.9. can you honesty say it took the same amount of money as Tiger? They're both pretty much in the same time frame.
Going from 10.3.0 to 10.3.9? No. Those were definitely small, incremental bug fixes and such. MS releases those regularly as well (as we are all too aware).
I can't see how this compares to a service pack, unless they also alter every app as well.
It doesn't compare quite in the same way. SP2 was more security oriented than changing UI and adding features. And most of the features they did add were security-oriented. In that regard they did a good amount of work.
Originally posted by nowayout11
Do you have any data suggesting SP2 was a 5-man part-time team or anything even resembling that notion? Of course you don't. It's even been widely reported that they even backed off of Longhorn to finish SP2. It was a large staff, full-time project by any legitimate account.
Yes, it was a huge undertaking, they did stop Longhorn for it. And for what? To simply plug the massive security holes that they left when rushing XP out the door.