The problem is people always wait for 10.X.2 till they upgrade - i haven't seen any major bugs - except Mail at the beginning with deleting mail and the iTunes widget.
Oh please, you already said that. Don't repeat yourself. People don't wait for the 10.x.2 update. They just go and buy it. That's just plain silly.
If people wait for the 10.x.2 update, then Apple may as well fix the problems that they would be fixing for the 10.x.2 update and get it over with. Then people would know that it wasn't that buggy, and would go out and buy it when it first came out.
But people don't do what you say. Unless you're isolated from the world, you would know that people have been buying it in droves.
Ric from Macintouch told me that the reason why my copy ordered from Amazon on March 28th isn't shipped yet was because of overwhelming demand. Apple is having problems supplying their own stores, much less those of third parties, even such large ones as Amazon.
We do expect bugs. But some are inexcusable. Apple's own pro apps won't work properly. Adobe's Acrobat has problems. Not just from an incompatability, but an OS bug. etc. That shouldn't happen.
From Anand's POSITIVE review:
"Unfortunately, that bug fix comes at the price of other multiple new bugs created. More than anything, Tiger appears to have been rushed during its final stages. Since I had installed and used on a regular basis just about every build of Tiger after the initial release to ADC members, I had a front row seat to watch Tiger improve and mature. And while I steadily saw performance improvements as the builds progressed, I definitely didn't see a single build that was released to developers that was 100% bug free - which definitely worried me. I tried to discount my fears by saying that I had never played with any Apple beta OSes and maybe this was just how things worked, but I kept on coming back to the same worry - with no public beta, and if the bugs aren't getting fixed in the developer release, then who's there to tell Apple when stuff isn't working right in Tiger?
Further indication of Tiger's hurried release is the fact that Quartz 2D Extreme, the complete handling of UI rendering and compositing by the GPU, is not enabled in the release version of OS X Tiger. As such, users of Quartz 2D Extreme supported GPUs gain no performance benefits in Tiger as the CPU is still left to handle all UI rendering and the GPU handles all compositing after the CPU renders the interfaces to textures in AGP memory. The only benefit modern day GPUs offer in Tiger (other than their improved performance in 3D applications) is that there are certain visual effects that are only enabled if you have a GPU that supports Tiger's Core Image. For example, when dropping a widget onto the Dashboard, you get a very nice ripply-wave effect on GPUs that support Core Image; and on those that don't, there's no effect. But from a performance standpoint, there's no benefit to either ATI's Radeon X800 XT Mac Edition or NVIDIA's GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL. "
When he means 100% bug free, that's the goal of all releases. The unfound bugs are fixed as they show up later.
Read his review. Anand is very fair in his work. He isn't alone in his assement.
Just to address this one point... if you're talking about the NAB-announced Pro suite that requires 10.4.1... it isn't shipping yet.
Makes sense to me... if an app is going to need X, Y, and Z, but that app isn't shipping until a month after the initial OS release, then X, Y, and Z can be taken off the OS release ToDo list and pushed back until that next month with the x.1 rollout.
It's called *planning*.
Now, if you're talking about *existing* Pro apps not working on 10.4, I'm all ears.
And yes, both the Anand and Siracusa reviews are great.
We do expect bugs. But some are inexcusable. Apple's own pro apps won't work properly. Adobe's Acrobat has problems. Not just from an incompatability, but an OS bug. etc. That shouldn't happen.
From Anand's POSITIVE review:
"Unfortunately, that bug fix comes at the price of other multiple new bugs created. More than anything, Tiger appears to have been rushed during its final stages. Since I had installed and used on a regular basis just about every build of Tiger after the initial release to ADC members, I had a front row seat to watch Tiger improve and mature. And while I steadily saw performance improvements as the builds progressed, I definitely didn't see a single build that was released to developers that was 100% bug free - which definitely worried me. I tried to discount my fears by saying that I had never played with any Apple beta OSes and maybe this was just how things worked, but I kept on coming back to the same worry - with no public beta, and if the bugs aren't getting fixed in the developer release, then who's there to tell Apple when stuff isn't working right in Tiger?
Further indication of Tiger's hurried release is the fact that Quartz 2D Extreme, the complete handling of UI rendering and compositing by the GPU, is not enabled in the release version of OS X Tiger. As such, users of Quartz 2D Extreme supported GPUs gain no performance benefits in Tiger as the CPU is still left to handle all UI rendering and the GPU handles all compositing after the CPU renders the interfaces to textures in AGP memory.
What if Adobe didn't report back to Apple regarding Acrobat? (and what are the problems - I haven't run into any yet).
I haven't found any show stoppers in Tiger, and there aren't more minor annoyances in Tiger than there where in earlier releases.
Regarding Q2DX we don't know if it's an easy fix, but since they still haven't fixed what didn't work last year at WWDC, it seems to be something that will take a while.
What if they don't have a time frame or have a time frame of 6-8 months? Should they delay Tiger?
Q2DX doesn't add functionality and everything works without it (Q2D is even 10 times faster in Tiger than in Panther), and I don't think any developer would go out and say "hey sorry, but we have to put the release of our next version on hold since we have a problem with this feature that won't have any effect for most users anyway and will only be a nice thing to have for the rest"
With that said, the comments about it being rushed at the end are clearly correct. There are so many bugs in the current release it's not even funny.
My hope is that Apple will have had 1.5-2 months to work on the .1 patch.
I also hope the patch is 200-400mb of bug fixes. And every part of the OS and iApps gets updated.
Sure, it will suck to download, but Tiger really has a lot of rough edges and I want to move all of my Macs over to Tiger. But not until it is a reasonable OS.
Come on Apple. Make 10.4.1 a polished and complete release.
We do expect bugs. But some are inexcusable. Apple's own pro apps won't work properly. Adobe's Acrobat has problems. Not just from an incompatability, but an OS bug. etc. That shouldn't happen.
FCP HD is still working fine for me.
DVD Studio Pro, working fine...
I have noticed any real problems and I have QD2Extreme running and everything has been hunky dory for me.
Just to address this one point... if you're talking about the NAB-announced Pro suite that requires 10.4.1... it isn't shipping yet.
Makes sense to me... if an app is going to need X, Y, and Z, but that app isn't shipping until a month after the initial OS release, then X, Y, and Z can be taken off the OS release ToDo list and pushed back until that next month with the x.1 rollout.
It's called *planning*.
Now, if you're talking about *existing* Pro apps not working on 10.4, I'm all ears.
And yes, both the Anand and Siracusa reviews are great.
The new releases are being held back, waiting for the .1 update. That's the point (no pun intended) I was making. FCP 4.5 has some issues. Spotlight has issues.
It's more difficult to fix bugs in an update, when the system is closed, and the de-bug code is removed, then it is to continue to work on the un-released code. It's a lot more work. Anand is right about the external bata program.
What if Adobe didn't report back to Apple regarding Acrobat? (and what are the problems - I haven't run into any yet).
I haven't found any show stoppers in Tiger, and there aren't more minor annoyances in Tiger than there where in earlier releases.
Regarding Q2DX we don't know if it's an easy fix, but since they still haven't fixed what didn't work last year at WWDC, it seems to be something that will take a while.
What if they don't have a time frame or have a time frame of 6-8 months? Should they delay Tiger?
Q2DX doesn't add functionality and everything works without it (Q2D is even 10 times faster in Tiger than in Panther), and I don't think any developer would go out and say "hey sorry, but we have to put the release of our next version on hold since we have a problem with this feature that won't have any effect for most users anyway and will only be a nice thing to have for the rest"
I don't know what the problems with Acrobat are from personal experiance (I haven't received my copy of Tiger from Amazon yet), but here is a short, not up to date list :
Q2DX is one of the biggest features of the OS. You're wrong there.
Absolutely not in the sense that Q2DX have no influence of your apps working or not - it will be a nice speed boost for people with the right hardware, but even then, I think most won't notice a difference.
I haven't seen a noticable difference with it on, but that could be because I have a DP2.5GHz PM.
Bottom line: Q2DX isn't mission critical, and has Q2DX even been mentioned by Apple outside developer circles?
and has Q2DX even been mentioned by Apple outside developer circles?
Yes, Steve discussed it publicly several times. It's on their website, etc. Analysts have been comparing it to MS's Avalon, and the big tech sites have mentioned that it isn't turned on, and that if you do turn it on, it's off if you restart.
I'm hearing that it most likely will be turned on by default with 10.4.1
Also The Apple development teams were rather surprised that developemnt was closed off when it was. The Spotlight indexing flaws were days away from being fixed.
I've even been told that it was supposed inside Apple that development would continue until at least the beginning of May, and possibly until the 2nd week.
This is what we're hearing from developers as well.
Yes there are bugs, BUT a 200-400 mb download would be slaughter on people with dialup (yes, they count too, all three of them) and what about universities or other large networks, say ~1000 macs start the same ~300mb download within ~5 minutes of eachother...that is 300 gigs of bandwidth...
You might see a ~80 meg patch and various app patches but not one point relese that is 200+ mb
Yes. Not only has that been reported in several other venues.
Heh. I don't consider repeating incorrect information makes it correct. (Not saying that's happening here, just as a general rule...) I can find thousands of pages that insist the Earth is flat, after all.
Quote:
But my own contacts within Apple have told me so.
And as you know, they've been right before.
Well, that's certainly a lot better source.
It conflicts with the info *I* have, but hey. We all gots our sources.
Yes, Steve discussed it publicly several times. It's on their website, etc. Analysts have been comparing it to MS's Avalon, and the big tech sites have mentioned that it isn't turned on, and that if you do turn it on, it's off if you restart.
I'm hearing that it most likely will be turned on by default with 10.4.1
I'm wondering if it's the Quartz 2D Extreme hardware acceleration that's holding back Final Cut Studio? Then again, only Motion 2 requires Tiger at all. The rest are fine with Panther. Maybe we'll see increased FCP performance running it via Tiger? Hrrmm...
I have to agree with the naysayers Ñ as someone with a decade of magazine product review experience Ñ I have to say Tiger was not ready for prime time, but rather in Beta.
When the primary browser doesn't work for about half the installed users (quits constantly, especially if you close a window, despite a clean install), the graphics rendering engine isn't working right on my G5 (everything is too heavy Ñ an issue I remember from an early 10.2 release, as I recall), half of the Widgets don't work right (and you need a third-party add-on to make them as useful as Konfabulator) the PDF issue (crippling to those us trying to ready a magazine for print) well, yeah, it was not ready for release.
I've beta tested OSs before from Windows 98 to the original OS X Public Beta.
This, my friends, is the worst .0 release from Apple in OS X history Ñ paranoia about spreading the betas around kept it from getting the proper vetting it needed. Steve needs to lighten up.
Comments
Originally posted by MacCrazy
The problem is people always wait for 10.X.2 till they upgrade - i haven't seen any major bugs - except Mail at the beginning with deleting mail and the iTunes widget.
Oh please, you already said that. Don't repeat yourself. People don't wait for the 10.x.2 update. They just go and buy it. That's just plain silly.
If people wait for the 10.x.2 update, then Apple may as well fix the problems that they would be fixing for the 10.x.2 update and get it over with. Then people would know that it wasn't that buggy, and would go out and buy it when it first came out.
But people don't do what you say. Unless you're isolated from the world, you would know that people have been buying it in droves.
Ric from Macintouch told me that the reason why my copy ordered from Amazon on March 28th isn't shipped yet was because of overwhelming demand. Apple is having problems supplying their own stores, much less those of third parties, even such large ones as Amazon.
We do expect bugs. But some are inexcusable. Apple's own pro apps won't work properly. Adobe's Acrobat has problems. Not just from an incompatability, but an OS bug. etc. That shouldn't happen.
From Anand's POSITIVE review:
"Unfortunately, that bug fix comes at the price of other multiple new bugs created. More than anything, Tiger appears to have been rushed during its final stages. Since I had installed and used on a regular basis just about every build of Tiger after the initial release to ADC members, I had a front row seat to watch Tiger improve and mature. And while I steadily saw performance improvements as the builds progressed, I definitely didn't see a single build that was released to developers that was 100% bug free - which definitely worried me. I tried to discount my fears by saying that I had never played with any Apple beta OSes and maybe this was just how things worked, but I kept on coming back to the same worry - with no public beta, and if the bugs aren't getting fixed in the developer release, then who's there to tell Apple when stuff isn't working right in Tiger?
Further indication of Tiger's hurried release is the fact that Quartz 2D Extreme, the complete handling of UI rendering and compositing by the GPU, is not enabled in the release version of OS X Tiger. As such, users of Quartz 2D Extreme supported GPUs gain no performance benefits in Tiger as the CPU is still left to handle all UI rendering and the GPU handles all compositing after the CPU renders the interfaces to textures in AGP memory. The only benefit modern day GPUs offer in Tiger (other than their improved performance in 3D applications) is that there are certain visual effects that are only enabled if you have a GPU that supports Tiger's Core Image. For example, when dropping a widget onto the Dashboard, you get a very nice ripply-wave effect on GPUs that support Core Image; and on those that don't, there's no effect. But from a performance standpoint, there's no benefit to either ATI's Radeon X800 XT Mac Edition or NVIDIA's GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL. "
When he means 100% bug free, that's the goal of all releases. The unfound bugs are fixed as they show up later.
Read his review. Anand is very fair in his work. He isn't alone in his assement.
http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2404
Originally posted by melgross
Apple's own pro apps won't work properly.
Just to address this one point... if you're talking about the NAB-announced Pro suite that requires 10.4.1... it isn't shipping yet.
Makes sense to me... if an app is going to need X, Y, and Z, but that app isn't shipping until a month after the initial OS release, then X, Y, and Z can be taken off the OS release ToDo list and pushed back until that next month with the x.1 rollout.
It's called *planning*.
Now, if you're talking about *existing* Pro apps not working on 10.4, I'm all ears.
And yes, both the Anand and Siracusa reviews are great.
Originally posted by melgross
We do expect bugs. But some are inexcusable. Apple's own pro apps won't work properly. Adobe's Acrobat has problems. Not just from an incompatability, but an OS bug. etc. That shouldn't happen.
From Anand's POSITIVE review:
"Unfortunately, that bug fix comes at the price of other multiple new bugs created. More than anything, Tiger appears to have been rushed during its final stages. Since I had installed and used on a regular basis just about every build of Tiger after the initial release to ADC members, I had a front row seat to watch Tiger improve and mature. And while I steadily saw performance improvements as the builds progressed, I definitely didn't see a single build that was released to developers that was 100% bug free - which definitely worried me. I tried to discount my fears by saying that I had never played with any Apple beta OSes and maybe this was just how things worked, but I kept on coming back to the same worry - with no public beta, and if the bugs aren't getting fixed in the developer release, then who's there to tell Apple when stuff isn't working right in Tiger?
Further indication of Tiger's hurried release is the fact that Quartz 2D Extreme, the complete handling of UI rendering and compositing by the GPU, is not enabled in the release version of OS X Tiger. As such, users of Quartz 2D Extreme supported GPUs gain no performance benefits in Tiger as the CPU is still left to handle all UI rendering and the GPU handles all compositing after the CPU renders the interfaces to textures in AGP memory.
What if Adobe didn't report back to Apple regarding Acrobat? (and what are the problems - I haven't run into any yet).
I haven't found any show stoppers in Tiger, and there aren't more minor annoyances in Tiger than there where in earlier releases.
Regarding Q2DX we don't know if it's an easy fix, but since they still haven't fixed what didn't work last year at WWDC, it seems to be something that will take a while.
What if they don't have a time frame or have a time frame of 6-8 months? Should they delay Tiger?
Q2DX doesn't add functionality and everything works without it (Q2D is even 10 times faster in Tiger than in Panther), and I don't think any developer would go out and say "hey sorry, but we have to put the release of our next version on hold since we have a problem with this feature that won't have any effect for most users anyway and will only be a nice thing to have for the rest"
With that said, the comments about it being rushed at the end are clearly correct. There are so many bugs in the current release it's not even funny.
My hope is that Apple will have had 1.5-2 months to work on the .1 patch.
I also hope the patch is 200-400mb of bug fixes. And every part of the OS and iApps gets updated.
Sure, it will suck to download, but Tiger really has a lot of rough edges and I want to move all of my Macs over to Tiger. But not until it is a reasonable OS.
Come on Apple. Make 10.4.1 a polished and complete release.
Originally posted by melgross
We do expect bugs. But some are inexcusable. Apple's own pro apps won't work properly. Adobe's Acrobat has problems. Not just from an incompatability, but an OS bug. etc. That shouldn't happen.
FCP HD is still working fine for me.
DVD Studio Pro, working fine...
I have noticed any real problems and I have QD2Extreme running and everything has been hunky dory for me.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Just to address this one point... if you're talking about the NAB-announced Pro suite that requires 10.4.1... it isn't shipping yet.
Makes sense to me... if an app is going to need X, Y, and Z, but that app isn't shipping until a month after the initial OS release, then X, Y, and Z can be taken off the OS release ToDo list and pushed back until that next month with the x.1 rollout.
It's called *planning*.
Now, if you're talking about *existing* Pro apps not working on 10.4, I'm all ears.
And yes, both the Anand and Siracusa reviews are great.
The new releases are being held back, waiting for the .1 update. That's the point (no pun intended) I was making. FCP 4.5 has some issues. Spotlight has issues.
It's more difficult to fix bugs in an update, when the system is closed, and the de-bug code is removed, then it is to continue to work on the un-released code. It's a lot more work. Anand is right about the external bata program.
Originally posted by JLL
What if Adobe didn't report back to Apple regarding Acrobat? (and what are the problems - I haven't run into any yet).
I haven't found any show stoppers in Tiger, and there aren't more minor annoyances in Tiger than there where in earlier releases.
Regarding Q2DX we don't know if it's an easy fix, but since they still haven't fixed what didn't work last year at WWDC, it seems to be something that will take a while.
What if they don't have a time frame or have a time frame of 6-8 months? Should they delay Tiger?
Q2DX doesn't add functionality and everything works without it (Q2D is even 10 times faster in Tiger than in Panther), and I don't think any developer would go out and say "hey sorry, but we have to put the release of our next version on hold since we have a problem with this feature that won't have any effect for most users anyway and will only be a nice thing to have for the rest"
I don't know what the problems with Acrobat are from personal experiance (I haven't received my copy of Tiger from Amazon yet), but here is a short, not up to date list :
http://www.macintouch.com/tigerrevie...atibility.html
They should at least have gotten it to work with the new releases.
Q2DX is one of the biggest features of the OS. You're wrong there. It should be working. The hints I'm getting is that it will be ready "soon".
Originally posted by melgross
The new releases are being held back, waiting for the .1 update. That's the point (no pun intended) I was making.
Er, are you *positive* that the Pro apps were *held back* for the update, or rather that they simply *aren't ready* yet? Huge difference. Massive.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Er, are you *positive* that the Pro apps were *held back* for the update, or rather that they simply *aren't ready* yet? Huge difference. Massive.
Yes. Not only has that been reported in several other venues. But my own contacts within Apple have told me so.
And as you know, they've been right before.
Originally posted by melgross
Q2DX is one of the biggest features of the OS. You're wrong there.
Absolutely not in the sense that Q2DX have no influence of your apps working or not - it will be a nice speed boost for people with the right hardware, but even then, I think most won't notice a difference.
I haven't seen a noticable difference with it on, but that could be because I have a DP2.5GHz PM.
Bottom line: Q2DX isn't mission critical, and has Q2DX even been mentioned by Apple outside developer circles?
Originally posted by JLL
and has Q2DX even been mentioned by Apple outside developer circles?
Yes, Steve discussed it publicly several times. It's on their website, etc. Analysts have been comparing it to MS's Avalon, and the big tech sites have mentioned that it isn't turned on, and that if you do turn it on, it's off if you restart.
I'm hearing that it most likely will be turned on by default with 10.4.1
Also The Apple development teams were rather surprised that developemnt was closed off when it was. The Spotlight indexing flaws were days away from being fixed.
I've even been told that it was supposed inside Apple that development would continue until at least the beginning of May, and possibly until the 2nd week.
This is what we're hearing from developers as well.
Originally posted by BWhaler
I also hope the patch is 200-400mb...
UMMM.....NO!
Yes there are bugs, BUT a 200-400 mb download would be slaughter on people with dialup (yes, they count too, all three of them) and what about universities or other large networks, say ~1000 macs start the same ~300mb download within ~5 minutes of eachother...that is 300 gigs of bandwidth...
You might see a ~80 meg patch and various app patches but not one point relese that is 200+ mb
Originally posted by melgross
Yes. Not only has that been reported in several other venues.
Heh. I don't consider repeating incorrect information makes it correct.
But my own contacts within Apple have told me so.
And as you know, they've been right before.
Well, that's certainly a lot better source.
It conflicts with the info *I* have, but hey. We all gots our sources.
Originally posted by Kickaha
[B I can find thousands of pages that insist the Earth is flat, after all.
[/B]
It's not?
Originally posted by melgross
It's not?
Originally posted by melgross
Yes, Steve discussed it publicly several times. It's on their website, etc. Analysts have been comparing it to MS's Avalon, and the big tech sites have mentioned that it isn't turned on, and that if you do turn it on, it's off if you restart.
I'm hearing that it most likely will be turned on by default with 10.4.1
I'm wondering if it's the Quartz 2D Extreme hardware acceleration that's holding back Final Cut Studio? Then again, only Motion 2 requires Tiger at all. The rest are fine with Panther. Maybe we'll see increased FCP performance running it via Tiger? Hrrmm...