Well I think it's more of an Apple problem than anyone's. A bird told me they have integrated the core graphics deep into the system in such a way that it's hurting the overall outside graphics application performance.
It's also more difficult to port a card a to work with it because of reasons I can not explain coherently, for lack of specific knowledge, but wouldn't it be nice to just take the Nvidia Drivers supplied by Nvidia, and compile them for a Mac in a simple step? Any graphics card made available on the PC would be capable from that point, after a ROM flash, and firmware upload? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to Flash the ROM of a Quadro (if you wanted one), and and upload the Mac compiled Quadro firmware? There are a thousand cards out there that should simply be able to work in a Mac but can not because they have gone overboard. They have simply gone too far.
Now they have even taken the old Microsoft approach of integrating applications into the OS (Dashboard) which is just a bad idea to begin with. Any integrated Application that can gain root access is a crucial flaw. I can't say I saw this coming, but it's not surprising me one bit after the approach, and path they have taken with graphics in the system. Yes, something must be done, and Apple has lost their minds. Why complicate things that are so simple. They should have made the graphics cards more accessable, not more impossible.
You're really out of line on this one. Apple has taken the step in the correct direction to make an OS more user friendly. Yes its not perfect or anywhere near complete at this point. But these are the features that will have to be here 10 years from now. By that time graphics cards will be more powerful and have been more optimized by the system. M$ is going to have to take this step eventually. Mark my words: UI's will move from this 2d interface to a 3d interface... Tiger enables that more than any other OS. Have an imagination... if no one did, we'd still be using a command line interface.
Long story short... As stated above I'm curious how much of the video card is dedicated to the OS's graphics functions. I don't believe anything is swapped out of the graphics cards (instructions / data) when its not in use... because no matter what its always in use. So perhaps there is a bit of a drag here. Maybe someone could write a program to disable quartz and offload it to the cpu easily. Perhaps turn off coreimage/video.
Apple has the right idea and layout. Unfortunately I don't think it's all apple's designs that is punishing the performance. Look at ATI... they ARE producing their own drivers (along with apple)... they do their own builds and development.... and are still getting performance hits... but IMO the hits aren't as hard as the NVidia cards going from PC->Mac. Maybe ATI knows something that NVidia / Apple do not. Perhaps ATI cards are easier to convert.
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Back on target... I THINK (don't know) that the new macs will have a 16x PCI-Express bus. As far as cards... here's to hoping for the x850 and 6600gt and 6800gt in PCI-E formats. How much this will help is anyone's guess.
Does anyone have any info on when the next rev of PowerMacs will be released? I know the line was somewhat recently upgraded but im wondering if I should wait to get a new G5 (Im thinking of going to the apple store today actually ) My Original idea of next rev PMG5s was that they would be coming at WWDC but with the recent update to 2.7Ghz I don't expect to see that.
Does anyone have any info on when the next rev of PowerMacs will be released? I know the line was somewhat recently upgraded but im wondering if I should wait to get a new G5 (Im thinking of going to the apple store today actually ) My Original idea of next rev PMG5s was that they would be coming at WWDC but with the recent update to 2.7Ghz I don't expect to see that.
Apple has the right idea and layout. Unfortunately I don't think it's all apple's designs that is punishing the performance. Look at ATI... they ARE producing their own drivers (along with apple)... they do their own builds and development.... and are still getting performance hits... but IMO the hits aren't as hard as the NVidia cards going from PC->Mac. Maybe ATI knows something that NVidia / Apple do not. Perhaps ATI cards are easier to convert.
I wasn't going to inject anything into this discussion, but I suppose I will say this: the whole issue of graphics systems, drivers and hardware is an extremely complex one. Any arguments about it here are going to inevitably be uninformed and in ignorance of many of the real issues involved. The generalizations that onlooker made miss many important points, and are complaints about a relatively new system that is still maturing and improving.
LOL. I think it's something like turning a blind eye. I doubt either of you would say such things about an early Windows system, and those widgets are worse than exe files. YOu don't need any programming experience to create one, and a sudo is a command from root. Hence. Root access.
LOL. I think it's something like turning a blind eye. I doubt either of you would say such things about an early Windows system, and those widgets are worse than exe files. YOu don't need any programming experience to create one, and a sudo is a command from root. Hence. Root access.
"either of you" makes it look like I was included in this retort?
1) I wasn't commenting on Widgets or their assorted security holes. I like the Dashboard, but I'll refrain from downloading new widgets until they get the holes plugged. In the end though, it shouldn't be much better/worse than downloading a new application.
2) "I doubt either of you would say such things about an early Windows system" ... no idea what you meant by this?
LOL. I think it's something like turning a blind eye. I doubt either of you would say such things about an early Windows system, and those widgets are worse than exe files.
I don't know about you guys, but I would definitely watch ANYTHING I download. Whats the difference between downloading a trojan client side app and a widget?
Quote:
YOu don't need any programming experience to create one, and a sudo is a command from root. Hence. Root access.
You don't need programming experience to make a widget... true. You don't need programming experience to make a cocoa application via core data. So I don't know what this has to do with anything.
sudo IS NOT a command FROM root. Sudo is a command that allows a user to execute a command using root priviledges. That is 2 different things. Sudo has the ability to restrict what commands a user may run on a per-host and per-user basis. Sudo does very detailed logging of each command executed... this shows a perfect cookie trail of what has happened with a sudo execution. As you can see... this is NOT root. This is something that is executed with the same permissions as root... but in a lot of cases sudo can't execute some things that root can.
OK.... I think you guys will have to agree to disagree....
But still, you can do some pretty nasty stuff when you use sudo to gain root priviledges..
Back to the topic my friends... Future Powermacs.... which, I hope, don't come too soon as I just purchased myself a nice little Dual 2ghz with 4gb of ram and a 20in *sex-on-legs" cinema display.
Comments
Originally posted by onlooker
Um.. Hello, yes it can.
Sudo is NOT root. an Administrator is NOT root. So lets get our terminology correct. Either way it is a security hole that can EASILY be fixed.
Originally posted by onlooker
Well I think it's more of an Apple problem than anyone's. A bird told me they have integrated the core graphics deep into the system in such a way that it's hurting the overall outside graphics application performance.
It's also more difficult to port a card a to work with it because of reasons I can not explain coherently, for lack of specific knowledge, but wouldn't it be nice to just take the Nvidia Drivers supplied by Nvidia, and compile them for a Mac in a simple step? Any graphics card made available on the PC would be capable from that point, after a ROM flash, and firmware upload? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to Flash the ROM of a Quadro (if you wanted one), and and upload the Mac compiled Quadro firmware? There are a thousand cards out there that should simply be able to work in a Mac but can not because they have gone overboard. They have simply gone too far.
Now they have even taken the old Microsoft approach of integrating applications into the OS (Dashboard) which is just a bad idea to begin with. Any integrated Application that can gain root access is a crucial flaw. I can't say I saw this coming, but it's not surprising me one bit after the approach, and path they have taken with graphics in the system. Yes, something must be done, and Apple has lost their minds. Why complicate things that are so simple. They should have made the graphics cards more accessable, not more impossible.
You're really out of line on this one. Apple has taken the step in the correct direction to make an OS more user friendly. Yes its not perfect or anywhere near complete at this point. But these are the features that will have to be here 10 years from now. By that time graphics cards will be more powerful and have been more optimized by the system. M$ is going to have to take this step eventually. Mark my words: UI's will move from this 2d interface to a 3d interface... Tiger enables that more than any other OS. Have an imagination... if no one did, we'd still be using a command line interface.
Long story short... As stated above I'm curious how much of the video card is dedicated to the OS's graphics functions. I don't believe anything is swapped out of the graphics cards (instructions / data) when its not in use... because no matter what its always in use. So perhaps there is a bit of a drag here. Maybe someone could write a program to disable quartz and offload it to the cpu easily. Perhaps turn off coreimage/video.
Apple has the right idea and layout. Unfortunately I don't think it's all apple's designs that is punishing the performance. Look at ATI... they ARE producing their own drivers (along with apple)... they do their own builds and development.... and are still getting performance hits... but IMO the hits aren't as hard as the NVidia cards going from PC->Mac. Maybe ATI knows something that NVidia / Apple do not. Perhaps ATI cards are easier to convert.
----------------
Back on target... I THINK (don't know) that the new macs will have a 16x PCI-Express bus. As far as cards... here's to hoping for the x850 and 6600gt and 6800gt in PCI-E formats. How much this will help is anyone's guess.
Originally posted by The-guy-who-loves-mac-stuff
Does anyone have any info on when the next rev of PowerMacs will be released? I know the line was somewhat recently upgraded but im wondering if I should wait to get a new G5 (Im thinking of going to the apple store today actually
I'd say MWSF or March of next year.
Originally posted by emig647
Apple has the right idea and layout. Unfortunately I don't think it's all apple's designs that is punishing the performance. Look at ATI... they ARE producing their own drivers (along with apple)... they do their own builds and development.... and are still getting performance hits... but IMO the hits aren't as hard as the NVidia cards going from PC->Mac. Maybe ATI knows something that NVidia / Apple do not. Perhaps ATI cards are easier to convert.
I wasn't going to inject anything into this discussion, but I suppose I will say this: the whole issue of graphics systems, drivers and hardware is an extremely complex one. Any arguments about it here are going to inevitably be uninformed and in ignorance of many of the real issues involved. The generalizations that onlooker made miss many important points, and are complaints about a relatively new system that is still maturing and improving.
Originally posted by onlooker
LOL.
"either of you" makes it look like I was included in this retort?
1) I wasn't commenting on Widgets or their assorted security holes. I like the Dashboard, but I'll refrain from downloading new widgets until they get the holes plugged. In the end though, it shouldn't be much better/worse than downloading a new application.
2) "I doubt either of you would say such things about an early Windows system" ... no idea what you meant by this?
Originally posted by onlooker
LOL.
I don't know about you guys, but I would definitely watch ANYTHING I download. Whats the difference between downloading a trojan client side app and a widget?
YOu don't need any programming experience to create one, and a sudo is a command from root. Hence. Root access.
You don't need programming experience to make a widget... true. You don't need programming experience to make a cocoa application via core data. So I don't know what this has to do with anything.
sudo IS NOT a command FROM root. Sudo is a command that allows a user to execute a command using root priviledges. That is 2 different things. Sudo has the ability to restrict what commands a user may run on a per-host and per-user basis. Sudo does very detailed logging of each command executed... this shows a perfect cookie trail of what has happened with a sudo execution. As you can see... this is NOT root. This is something that is executed with the same permissions as root... but in a lot of cases sudo can't execute some things that root can.
This would also help patch security holes.
But still, you can do some pretty nasty stuff when you use sudo to gain root priviledges..
Back to the topic my friends... Future Powermacs.... which, I hope, don't come too soon as I just purchased myself a nice little Dual 2ghz with 4gb of ram and a 20in *sex-on-legs" cinema display.