Reality Check: Apple's internal controllers will be redesigned to handle the Intel Chipset families.
The really interesting scenario will be whether or not Apple maintains the streamlined internal layout of the motherboards or produce systems with guts similiar to current x86 machines and thus really reduce the respect the Industry gives Apple for making their internal components unobstructive to working around inside the towers.
Anyone who thinks Intel chips when they ramp up their Mhz again won't need a custom built heat-sink and/or cooling solution is being misled.
Basically, if Intel starts stiffing Apple due to strong pressure from Microsoft they have one last chipset to jump to->AMD.
Apple is angry because they don't command the level of attention from the chip makers as they would like and with IBM focusing on the CELL and its many derived chipsets, along with the POWER5 and POWER6 without focusing on a derived G5MP or G6 alternative to Apple's liking, Apple is really betting the farm on Intel not screwing them over.
Either way, the system motherboard with openfirmware, running a high-end Xeon P4 or x86-64 based Itanium derived chipset is not cheap.
When multi-cores are released Intel will only lower the costs relative to AMD.
At any rate, Apple x86 Hardware custom designed will still be 20%-30% more expensive than Windows XP Systems.
The jump wasn't the price draw, but the future chip roadmap Intel guaranteed Apple will materialize.
I don't think Apple might drop prices too much. maybe a 10 to 20% drop might happen in 1 to 3 months for PB and Powermacs.
Also, the resale value of a computer drops immensely after 3 years anyway. I have a PB G4 Titanium 550mhz and I paid around $2200 little over 3 years ago. Today on ebay if I get $500 I am luck.
I don't think Apple might drop prices too much. maybe a 10 to 20% drop might happen in 1 to 3 months for PB and Powermacs.
Also, the resale value of a computer drops immensely after 3 years anyway. I have a PB G4 Titanium 550mhz and I paid around $2200 little over 3 years ago. Today on ebay if I get $500 I am luck.
That is due to the fact you can't purchase your Titanium anywhere, but from a used dealer.
An accurate comparison would be if over 6months vendors priced systems down in leu of newer systems coming at around 20%-30% off just to push product out the door.
Isn't it the case that only certain FILTERS in Photoshop utliize Altivec? And that's why Steve always chose those filters for those nutty G4 bakeoffs he used to do at keynotes?
That is a myth - Altivec is used extensively in Photoshop - not just filters, but resizing, rotation - about anything you can do that is processor intensive. And that's the same for a lot of other apps - like Apple's editing suite, and sound software.
...but ... but photoshop was demoed under Rossetta on stage. But the dev docs indicate rosetta won't run any Altivec code. What the???
In the demo, Steve made an interesting misstep, perhaps. He brought up 2 photos in PS CS2, and on the second went to a menu to run a filter. He selected a filter, brought up the filter dialogue box, then cancelled the operation and selected a second filter to run (which was emboss BTW). Why not just run the first filter? Perhaps someone warned him against performing certain opertaions in PS?
...but ... but photoshop was demoed under Rossetta on stage. But the dev docs indicate rosetta won't run any Altivec code. What the???
In the demo, Steve made an interesting misstep, perhaps. He brought up 2 photos in PS CS2, and on the second went to a menu to run a filter. He selected a filter, brought up the filter dialogue box, then cancelled the operation and selected a second filter to run (which was emboss BTW). Why not just run the first filter? Perhaps someone warned him against performing certain opertaions in PS?
It's funny how people are analyzing every little click Steve did in his demo.
For sure all the apps are not FULLY optimized YET for Intel chips. just be a little patient. by the time Intel arrives on the Mac, hopefully things will be in much better shape.
I would buy now. I would much rather have a G5 then the pentium. Also, as a rule never buy the Rev1 of any thing Apple. I learned this lesson the hard way. \
This really has a few pals of mine torqued. We tended to buy Macs precisely because we could hang onto them longer. Last years main editing system might be the one that does lesser work, and so on. My shop still even has a Yikes that does nothing but scan stills for low-end stuff -- the machine's more than amoritized, and when it breaks, that's it.
Such a path will be difficult to pull with Macintel. Clearly, Uncle Steve wants you to buy new stuff.
AND you completely contradict yourself---So WHAT if the video stuff of the future doesn't run on the old hardware--that old hardware is scanning stills in some other (older) program, the new kick ass quad-core intel box is running the video stuff...
Actually, why should an announcement at the WWDC *have* to make anything clear to consumers? This show isn't and shouldn't be about consumers.
Wow finally... someone has the balls to tell these people that. I've been trying to explain to them what WWDC is and is meant to be... it is not a consumer show... it never was meant to be. It never will be.
PPC architecture will be support for at least 4+ years. Why? Because every new program will be fat binary ... translates to running on both platforms without a performance loss. Do you really consider keeping a machine passed 4 years??? If so, then choosing a buying time is pointless. You get the newest and ride the wave out. Its going to be the same no matter what. After 4 years you got what you paid for anyways... bite the bullet and buy. I'm going to buy a 1.67ghz powerbook with 128mb vram next week. I'm staying committed to this because as a developer I understand this book will still be supported 4 years from now and I'll still be able to sell it for decent money.
Stop worrying and just buy. Its not going to hurt. The developers now days know what they are doing (usually) and this won't hurt the end user.
Wow finally... someone has the balls to tell these people that. I've been trying to explain to them what WWDC is and is meant to be... it is not a consumer show... it never was meant to be. It never will be.
[clip]
Stop worrying and just buy. Its not going to hurt. The developers now days know what they are doing (usually) and this won't hurt the end user.
Sorry, but Apple released it to the press. That means consumers and investors have got to be kept informed. Since abandoning the summer MacWord, WWDC is the only chance we usually have to hear from Apple, and they've used to launch such non-Developer stuff as monitors, for heavens sake.
Shut up and trust the company is not a compelling argument.
i want a mac mini, have the cash FINALLY and now what do i do? I wanted to get it to start using this summer. are we better off buying it now with the old processor or wait for the intels
On this one I think there is absolutely no question! Buy your new Mini, put it to work and move on. There is not about to be some magical chip appearing from Intel that will murder the G4 in there and give you super powers. I even bought a mini to "upgrade" one of my Cubes-- it fits right under it with a little lift and most people cannot understand how i'm running two monitors out of my Cube!
I think the key shock will be in the Powerbook line, but I've not been impressed with any of the Dell/Sony/et al laptops my colleagues have been lugging around. My Pismo still works great and the 15"Al PB I got in the first rev of them is a workhorse; I skipped upgrading in hopes of a G5 PB, but I never really believed in it.
What has happened to the confidence of the Apple Community with yesterday's news is very evident in this thread. A lot of confusion about a lot of things few of the community outside Developer Land really understand. I think it was probably a mistake to make this Keynote so public... Steve needed a good heart-to-heart with the core along the lines stated above assuring everyone that he wasn't just Killing a bum machine or something... We're not talking bubble memory here...
Well, my fiancee was about to buy her first Mac after a week of virus hell in XP (*with* 2 virus checkers running!), but now she sees no point.
"Wasn't the point of a Mac it isn't a PC? Now they are."
I won't buy a new Mac this year now either, I need to see how Rosetta performs first.
I think Apple just killed a lot of sales.
I don't see what's the point with all the buy now questions. Of course you want to buy now. While their still figuring out the bugs with rosetta next year those of us with PowerPC macs will be singing as our stuff will just work without all the emulation crap.
This is not as big a deal as you all seem to think it is. Especially if the transition goes as well as their projecting. It's not like they had a choice either. A PowerBook G5 was NEVER gonna happen. Those damn PowerPC chips are just too damn hot...
Really, do all you people love Macs for the PowerPC, or the virus free Mac OS X, iLife, stable entertainment hub that the mac has matured into?
Can you tell me why the Powermac and laptop crowd should wait?
Powermac were just upgraded. Steve did not give any hope of a PB G5 to ever happen. IBM looks stuck on their current G5 models (just look at the minor Powermac upgrade). So I don't see any significant upgrade coming until probably middle or end of next year.
Many folks who buy PowerMacs do so not just for the raw speed, but for the upgradability and expansion. Anyone who was wanting the Latest and Greatest might want to hold off, since there's bound to be good new tech coming in the IntelMacs.
For laptops, I'd say there's a tremendous benefit in holding off. Centrino "Napa" is likely to be what gets put into the new laptops, and that offers a host of improved technologies.
However, anyone who needs (or just wants) a new machine now, should go ahead and buy now. I was only saying that folks who want the Latest and Greatest should probably hold off, to get a machine that will last the longest for future upgrades.
Consumer machines don't tend to have that question, as they don't / can't get upgraded. They typically last 3-6 years and get replaced anyway, which means there's really no difference in waiting or buying now.
Sorry, but Apple released it to the press. That means consumers and investors have got to be kept informed. Since abandoning the summer MacWord, WWDC is the only chance we usually have to hear from Apple, and they've used to launch such non-Developer stuff as monitors, for heavens sake.
Shut up and trust the company is not a compelling argument.
Neither is, "we heard about it, they must tell us everything they know!"
All they have to tell consumers is what's in the press release. Nothing more. It would be nice to hear more info, but it sounds like they're still working out the details.
No matter what, WWDC is not intended to be a consumer showplace. Stuff does get released around that time, but it's not done for getting mom & pop to buy a Mac. It's done for the hardcore geeks and developers.
You don't have to "shut up and trust the company," but there's little point in complaining that a developer's conference doesn't have a lot of consumer information. For the tired car analogy, this is the engineering symposium, versus a dealer carshow. It's not about the paint job or body, it's about the future of the engine.
Photoshop, and many other pro apps, support the G3 processor, which doesn't have Altivec. Rosetta must be using the G3 code path.
Right. I think Apple's warning was that programs which rely on AltiVec with no fallback code will fail when ported to Intel, unless you spend time ripping it out and replacing the code. Other software that can use Altivec but survive without it will run on Rosetta, though without the benefits of the Altivec code.
OK, I thought you said to hold off for a powerful upgrade to the G5 Powermac.
Unfortunately we are not going to see that until Intel kicks in. The IBM G5 probably will be no more powerful than 3.2. too bad. That's why i think in the long run the Intel move is a good thing.
Also, I believe Imacs and Powermacs will be the last ones to have the Intel chip on it.
Comments
The really interesting scenario will be whether or not Apple maintains the streamlined internal layout of the motherboards or produce systems with guts similiar to current x86 machines and thus really reduce the respect the Industry gives Apple for making their internal components unobstructive to working around inside the towers.
Anyone who thinks Intel chips when they ramp up their Mhz again won't need a custom built heat-sink and/or cooling solution is being misled.
Basically, if Intel starts stiffing Apple due to strong pressure from Microsoft they have one last chipset to jump to->AMD.
Apple is angry because they don't command the level of attention from the chip makers as they would like and with IBM focusing on the CELL and its many derived chipsets, along with the POWER5 and POWER6 without focusing on a derived G5MP or G6 alternative to Apple's liking, Apple is really betting the farm on Intel not screwing them over.
Either way, the system motherboard with openfirmware, running a high-end Xeon P4 or x86-64 based Itanium derived chipset is not cheap.
When multi-cores are released Intel will only lower the costs relative to AMD.
At any rate, Apple x86 Hardware custom designed will still be 20%-30% more expensive than Windows XP Systems.
The jump wasn't the price draw, but the future chip roadmap Intel guaranteed Apple will materialize.
I don't think Apple might drop prices too much. maybe a 10 to 20% drop might happen in 1 to 3 months for PB and Powermacs.
Also, the resale value of a computer drops immensely after 3 years anyway. I have a PB G4 Titanium 550mhz and I paid around $2200 little over 3 years ago. Today on ebay if I get $500 I am luck.
Originally posted by gugy
Very True shetline!
I don't think Apple might drop prices too much. maybe a 10 to 20% drop might happen in 1 to 3 months for PB and Powermacs.
Also, the resale value of a computer drops immensely after 3 years anyway. I have a PB G4 Titanium 550mhz and I paid around $2200 little over 3 years ago. Today on ebay if I get $500 I am luck.
That is due to the fact you can't purchase your Titanium anywhere, but from a used dealer.
An accurate comparison would be if over 6months vendors priced systems down in leu of newer systems coming at around 20%-30% off just to push product out the door.
Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
Either way, the system motherboard with openfirmware, running a high-end Xeon P4 or x86-64 based Itanium derived chipset is not cheap.
Sadly, the intel macs will use BIOS and not Open Firmware. http://developer.apple.com/documenta...7-CH239-283936
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
Isn't it the case that only certain FILTERS in Photoshop utliize Altivec? And that's why Steve always chose those filters for those nutty G4 bakeoffs he used to do at keynotes?
That is a myth - Altivec is used extensively in Photoshop - not just filters, but resizing, rotation - about anything you can do that is processor intensive. And that's the same for a lot of other apps - like Apple's editing suite, and sound software.
In the demo, Steve made an interesting misstep, perhaps. He brought up 2 photos in PS CS2, and on the second went to a menu to run a filter. He selected a filter, brought up the filter dialogue box, then cancelled the operation and selected a second filter to run (which was emboss BTW). Why not just run the first filter? Perhaps someone warned him against performing certain opertaions in PS?
Originally posted by wormboy
...but ... but photoshop was demoed under Rossetta on stage. But the dev docs indicate rosetta won't run any Altivec code. What the???
In the demo, Steve made an interesting misstep, perhaps. He brought up 2 photos in PS CS2, and on the second went to a menu to run a filter. He selected a filter, brought up the filter dialogue box, then cancelled the operation and selected a second filter to run (which was emboss BTW). Why not just run the first filter? Perhaps someone warned him against performing certain opertaions in PS?
It's funny how people are analyzing every little click Steve did in his demo.
For sure all the apps are not FULLY optimized YET for Intel chips. just be a little patient. by the time Intel arrives on the Mac, hopefully things will be in much better shape.
Originally posted by wormboy
...but ... but photoshop was demoed under Rossetta on stage. But the dev docs indicate rosetta won't run any Altivec code. What the???
Photoshop, and many other pro apps, support the G3 processor, which doesn't have Altivec. Rosetta must be using the G3 code path.
Originally posted by Sam Damon
This really has a few pals of mine torqued. We tended to buy Macs precisely because we could hang onto them longer. Last years main editing system might be the one that does lesser work, and so on. My shop still even has a Yikes that does nothing but scan stills for low-end stuff -- the machine's more than amoritized, and when it breaks, that's it.
Such a path will be difficult to pull with Macintel. Clearly, Uncle Steve wants you to buy new stuff.
AND you completely contradict yourself---So WHAT if the video stuff of the future doesn't run on the old hardware--that old hardware is scanning stills in some other (older) program, the new kick ass quad-core intel box is running the video stuff...
Originally posted by bostongeek
Actually, why should an announcement at the WWDC *have* to make anything clear to consumers? This show isn't and shouldn't be about consumers.
Wow finally... someone has the balls to tell these people that. I've been trying to explain to them what WWDC is and is meant to be... it is not a consumer show... it never was meant to be. It never will be.
PPC architecture will be support for at least 4+ years. Why? Because every new program will be fat binary ... translates to running on both platforms without a performance loss. Do you really consider keeping a machine passed 4 years??? If so, then choosing a buying time is pointless. You get the newest and ride the wave out. Its going to be the same no matter what. After 4 years you got what you paid for anyways... bite the bullet and buy. I'm going to buy a 1.67ghz powerbook with 128mb vram next week. I'm staying committed to this because as a developer I understand this book will still be supported 4 years from now and I'll still be able to sell it for decent money.
Stop worrying and just buy. Its not going to hurt. The developers now days know what they are doing (usually) and this won't hurt the end user.
Originally posted by emig647
Wow finally... someone has the balls to tell these people that. I've been trying to explain to them what WWDC is and is meant to be... it is not a consumer show... it never was meant to be. It never will be.
[clip]
Stop worrying and just buy. Its not going to hurt. The developers now days know what they are doing (usually) and this won't hurt the end user.
Sorry, but Apple released it to the press. That means consumers and investors have got to be kept informed. Since abandoning the summer MacWord, WWDC is the only chance we usually have to hear from Apple, and they've used to launch such non-Developer stuff as monitors, for heavens sake.
Shut up and trust the company is not a compelling argument.
Originally posted by wilco
What gave it away, the Microsoft rep on stage?
LOL
Originally posted by alliancep.s.i
i want a mac mini, have the cash FINALLY and now what do i do? I wanted to get it to start using this summer. are we better off buying it now with the old processor or wait for the intels
On this one I think there is absolutely no question! Buy your new Mini, put it to work and move on. There is not about to be some magical chip appearing from Intel that will murder the G4 in there and give you super powers. I even bought a mini to "upgrade" one of my Cubes-- it fits right under it with a little lift and most people cannot understand how i'm running two monitors out of my Cube!
I think the key shock will be in the Powerbook line, but I've not been impressed with any of the Dell/Sony/et al laptops my colleagues have been lugging around. My Pismo still works great and the 15"Al PB I got in the first rev of them is a workhorse; I skipped upgrading in hopes of a G5 PB, but I never really believed in it.
What has happened to the confidence of the Apple Community with yesterday's news is very evident in this thread. A lot of confusion about a lot of things few of the community outside Developer Land really understand. I think it was probably a mistake to make this Keynote so public... Steve needed a good heart-to-heart with the core along the lines stated above assuring everyone that he wasn't just Killing a bum machine or something... We're not talking bubble memory here...
Originally posted by Blackcat
Well, my fiancee was about to buy her first Mac after a week of virus hell in XP (*with* 2 virus checkers running!), but now she sees no point.
"Wasn't the point of a Mac it isn't a PC? Now they are."
I won't buy a new Mac this year now either, I need to see how Rosetta performs first.
I think Apple just killed a lot of sales.
I don't see what's the point with all the buy now questions. Of course you want to buy now. While their still figuring out the bugs with rosetta next year those of us with PowerPC macs will be singing as our stuff will just work without all the emulation crap.
This is not as big a deal as you all seem to think it is. Especially if the transition goes as well as their projecting. It's not like they had a choice either. A PowerBook G5 was NEVER gonna happen. Those damn PowerPC chips are just too damn hot...
Really, do all you people love Macs for the PowerPC, or the virus free Mac OS X, iLife, stable entertainment hub that the mac has matured into?
Originally posted by gugy
Can you tell me why the Powermac and laptop crowd should wait?
Powermac were just upgraded. Steve did not give any hope of a PB G5 to ever happen. IBM looks stuck on their current G5 models (just look at the minor Powermac upgrade). So I don't see any significant upgrade coming until probably middle or end of next year.
Many folks who buy PowerMacs do so not just for the raw speed, but for the upgradability and expansion. Anyone who was wanting the Latest and Greatest might want to hold off, since there's bound to be good new tech coming in the IntelMacs.
For laptops, I'd say there's a tremendous benefit in holding off. Centrino "Napa" is likely to be what gets put into the new laptops, and that offers a host of improved technologies.
However, anyone who needs (or just wants) a new machine now, should go ahead and buy now. I was only saying that folks who want the Latest and Greatest should probably hold off, to get a machine that will last the longest for future upgrades.
Consumer machines don't tend to have that question, as they don't / can't get upgraded. They typically last 3-6 years and get replaced anyway, which means there's really no difference in waiting or buying now.
Originally posted by D.J. Adequate
Sorry, but Apple released it to the press. That means consumers and investors have got to be kept informed. Since abandoning the summer MacWord, WWDC is the only chance we usually have to hear from Apple, and they've used to launch such non-Developer stuff as monitors, for heavens sake.
Shut up and trust the company is not a compelling argument.
Neither is, "we heard about it, they must tell us everything they know!"
All they have to tell consumers is what's in the press release. Nothing more. It would be nice to hear more info, but it sounds like they're still working out the details.
No matter what, WWDC is not intended to be a consumer showplace. Stuff does get released around that time, but it's not done for getting mom & pop to buy a Mac. It's done for the hardcore geeks and developers.
You don't have to "shut up and trust the company," but there's little point in complaining that a developer's conference doesn't have a lot of consumer information. For the tired car analogy, this is the engineering symposium, versus a dealer carshow. It's not about the paint job or body, it's about the future of the engine.
Originally posted by off/lang
Photoshop, and many other pro apps, support the G3 processor, which doesn't have Altivec. Rosetta must be using the G3 code path.
Right. I think Apple's warning was that programs which rely on AltiVec with no fallback code will fail when ported to Intel, unless you spend time ripping it out and replacing the code. Other software that can use Altivec but survive without it will run on Rosetta, though without the benefits of the Altivec code.
It sounds like PS is one of the latter.
Unfortunately we are not going to see that until Intel kicks in. The IBM G5 probably will be no more powerful than 3.2. too bad. That's why i think in the long run the Intel move is a good thing.
Also, I believe Imacs and Powermacs will be the last ones to have the Intel chip on it.