The only real difference (and the one that came up over and over again in old discussions about web browsers and tabs) is that one takes up more room than the other.
The one that takes up more room, however, is the one that is much more functional. It provides more info since the user is in control of the truncation (can choose whether to have lots of truncation or no truncation at all) and is easier to navigate (scrollbar vs a chevron...although a scrollbar in the latter case could be used but would be just as awkward to use).
However, people have exhibited a behavior I've never understood. They're not ready to sacrifice screen estate even if it means more functionality. Granted, when I had these discussions, Exposé didn't exist and not a whole lot of people had widescreen monitors...but I suspect there's still a large group of people with this very mentality even today.
Screen estate is important but when something works better laid out as a vertical list instead of horizontally, is losing a bit more screen such a problem?
edit: the old debates are coming back to me...even though I said that a the superior vertical list of 'tabs' would take more screen estate, the horizontal list of 'tabs' would take even *more* to be as functional since you'd have to open your window up larger horizontally.
What the debates boiled down to was that the horizontal tabs layout was better if you didn't have very many tabs open while the vertical tab layout a few tabs would result in lots of wasted space.
My counter-point was that the vertical tab layout was much more scalable for everyone's needs...if someone only wanted a few tabs, he'd waste a bit of space...if someone wanted more tabs, the system would allow it to happen without the problems horizontal tabs would cause. Besides, with Exposé and wider screens nowadays, I think this point is very valid...and even more so in the case of the Finder which isn't a window that absolutely needs the span the monitor from top to bottom.
A hundred years from now when meta data is fully functional, can look at my pictures and tell it is of a kids soccer game that includes my niece (and knows her name and the team name) so I can do keyword searches without putting in keywords I'll be more than happy to see tabbed finder go away again (heck, even the whole finder). I want something that improves my life NOW.
To others,
The sidebar is nice but not the same. The sidebar is useful for more permanent shortcuts. My sidebar is already fairly full with just the default shortcuts and servers, etc.
The tab idea allows me to create a tab to use for 5-10 minutes and simply close the tab or the whole window once I'm done. If I do this 10-20 times a day having to put it in the sidebar and then drag it out to remove it each time is a waste of time.
I never suggested this was flawless. Just an idea to consider.
I agree with Tomahawk's last post. While Kickaha's right about the mechanics of the tabs and the sidebar being the same, the fact is that one is meant for immediate purposes, ephemeral ones (tabs) that you can with one click close when you're done, and the other (sidebar) is meant for the opposite: namely, things you do very commonly, folders you ALWAYS want available.
And Tomahawk, if you want something to make your life 50% better NOW, then try Quicksilver for a day. Just one.
A hundred years from now when meta data is fully functional, can look at my pictures and tell it is of a kids soccer game that includes my niece (and knows her name and the team name) so I can do keyword searches without putting in keywords I'll be more than happy to see tabbed finder go away again (heck, even the whole finder). I want something that improves my life NOW.
Well, if that's the case, use PathFinder.
I'd hate for Apple to waste time on such things when the whole concept is changing anyways,
Based on that argument there shouldn't be a single new car introduced any time in the near future. You have to make the best product you can sell now using currently available technology.
For example, it's great that GM is working on hydrogen cars. However, since the technology isn't there yet I fully expect GM to introduce a few more gas powered vehicles and hopefully some hybrids.
Another example is iTunes 5. Why did Apple waste precious resources developing iTunes 5 for PowerPC when we will all be switching to Intel in the next few years anyway. They released it because it's something they can push and sell now.
In the near future I don't see the Finder going anywhere so I'd like to see them improve it at least a little (realistically it could probably still use a lot of help).
I agree with Tomahawk's last post. While Kickaha's right about the mechanics of the tabs and the sidebar being the same, the fact is that one is meant for immediate purposes, ephemeral ones (tabs) that you can with one click close when you're done, and the other (sidebar) is meant for the opposite: namely, things you do very commonly, folders you ALWAYS want available.
If the mechanics are the same, then how are they 'meant' for different purposes? The *only* difference there is that instead of clicking on a close button, you drag it off the Sidebar. That's it.
Tomahawk, I ask you the same thing: why are they 'meant' for different things? And, resize your window vertically. Voila. More room... just as you would increase your window sideways to show more tabs.
Again, no difference in these arguments.
I'll provide one for you though: closing a window containing tabs wipes out all those tabs irrevocably. Closing a window with Sidebar items does not.
Really, I'm more interested in getting to the bottom of the functional differences between tabs and the Sidebar than having an argument on whether they should be there.
For instance... tabs and the Bookmark Bar in Safari... similar situation. I use the Bookmark Bar rather like tabs, a lot of the time - for temporary storage... but one I want to persist for a bit. If I really want to store them, I move them into the Bookmarks folders permanently.
Why should I have to think about temporary-a-few-minutes vs. temporary-a-few-days? Wouldn't it make more sense to have them use the same system?
Both tabs and bookmark bar items give me quick access to something, both are temporary, both use up (two different sets of) screen space...
And as with tabs vs. Sidebar, it's the same per-window vs. all-windows issue, but I still maintain that the browser is a rather unique set of constraints, and that tabs are a poor idea in general for apps in light of robust window management features.
Look at it this way... take tabs to the extreme, and you've just reinvented MDI... a UI paradigm *even Microsoft* is avoiding like the plague these days.
Based on that argument there shouldn't be a single new car introduced any time in the near future. You have to make the best product you can sell now using currently available technology.
For example, it's great that GM is working on hydrogen cars. However, since the technology isn't there yet I fully expect GM to introduce a few more gas powered vehicles and hopefully some hybrids.
Another example is iTunes 5. Why did Apple waste precious resources developing iTunes 5 for PowerPC when we will all be switching to Intel in the next few years anyway. They released it because it's something they can push and sell now.
In the near future I don't see the Finder going anywhere so I'd like to see them improve it at least a little (realistically it could probably still use a lot of help).
Sure...they'll improve it 'a little' but I don't think they'll change concepts by adding tabs just like GM won't make concept-changing changes to their gas powered vehicles and just like iTunes 5 didn't introduce very many changes.
A large problem with software (or even hardware makers) is that if they introduce something new to an app, they're expected to keep this new feature throughout the app's lifetime. I don't want Apple to make the mistake of introducing tabs to the Finder because then everyone will expect the Finder to have tabs forever. For the good of society (hehe), I think the Finder should remain as-is until the OS has fully transitioned to a metadata-rich environment.
Imagine the outcry if they removed tabs from Safari and replaced them with a more sensible solution.
Then again, look at the amount of crap we didn't have from OS 9 (and in a few cases probably still don't)...
:-)
Funny, I can't think of many examples at the moment (it's amazing how fast you forget the old once you have used the new long enough).
Kickaha,
The closing of all of the tabs is one of the functions I would like! I think you hit the nail the head on the bookmark thing. The side bar is a bookmark. Heck, what would be really cool is if I could make a sidebar shortcut that auto opens some tabbed windows! So for example, when I'm working on our intranet I could click one link and have all the windows I need available!
I use column view so my windows are already pretty wide. I don't necessarily want to make the windows even deeper (then they are taking up even more space which was one of the things I wanted to get away from in the first place...)
It would appear I'll be looking at trying some of the suggested options on my personal machine. No offense to the developers but I tend to not screw with stuff on our work machines.
Then again, look at the amount of crap we didn't have from OS 9 (and in a few cases probably still don't)...
:-)
Funny, I can't think of many examples at the moment (it's amazing how fast you forget the old once you have used the new long enough).
"My voice is my password"
...and "tabbed folders"...I used to love dragging windows to the bottom edge of the screen and organizing things this way. However, the Dock is sufficient now and works somewhat like how I set up my tabbed folders in OS 9: all my most used apps and documents.
If the mechanics are the same, then how are they 'meant' for different purposes? The *only* difference there is that instead of clicking on a close button, you drag it off the Sidebar. That's it.
Actually, navigation is the big difference. I click in the sidebar on my "current projects" item. I then navigate down a directory or two or more. Then click on a different sidebar item to find an item. Copy it, then click back on "current projects" item and I am not at the same place I navigated to as I would be with a tab in the web browser...
The sidebar works the same as bookmarks.
On a different note, I haven't had a need for tabs in the finder. Really, the true solution is in the "Recent Places" under the Go menu (or is it called freqently used places?). You can think about this as a list of smart or intelligent tabs that are constantly keeping up with where you are navigating; even if you are doing so in applications and not in the finder!! In fact, they are also available in the open/save dialog boxes. I rarely have to navigate anywhere more than once. And if you need something around for longer, use the sidebar...
Comments
Originally posted by Kickaha
How are they different?
The only real difference (and the one that came up over and over again in old discussions about web browsers and tabs) is that one takes up more room than the other.
The one that takes up more room, however, is the one that is much more functional. It provides more info since the user is in control of the truncation (can choose whether to have lots of truncation or no truncation at all) and is easier to navigate (scrollbar vs a chevron...although a scrollbar in the latter case could be used but would be just as awkward to use).
However, people have exhibited a behavior I've never understood. They're not ready to sacrifice screen estate even if it means more functionality. Granted, when I had these discussions, Exposé didn't exist and not a whole lot of people had widescreen monitors...but I suspect there's still a large group of people with this very mentality even today.
Screen estate is important but when something works better laid out as a vertical list instead of horizontally, is losing a bit more screen such a problem?
edit: the old debates are coming back to me...even though I said that a the superior vertical list of 'tabs' would take more screen estate, the horizontal list of 'tabs' would take even *more* to be as functional since you'd have to open your window up larger horizontally.
What the debates boiled down to was that the horizontal tabs layout was better if you didn't have very many tabs open while the vertical tab layout a few tabs would result in lots of wasted space.
My counter-point was that the vertical tab layout was much more scalable for everyone's needs...if someone only wanted a few tabs, he'd waste a bit of space...if someone wanted more tabs, the system would allow it to happen without the problems horizontal tabs would cause. Besides, with Exposé and wider screens nowadays, I think this point is very valid...and even more so in the case of the Finder which isn't a window that absolutely needs the span the monitor from top to bottom.
A hundred years from now when meta data is fully functional, can look at my pictures and tell it is of a kids soccer game that includes my niece (and knows her name and the team name) so I can do keyword searches without putting in keywords I'll be more than happy to see tabbed finder go away again (heck, even the whole finder). I want something that improves my life NOW.
To others,
The sidebar is nice but not the same. The sidebar is useful for more permanent shortcuts. My sidebar is already fairly full with just the default shortcuts and servers, etc.
The tab idea allows me to create a tab to use for 5-10 minutes and simply close the tab or the whole window once I'm done. If I do this 10-20 times a day having to put it in the sidebar and then drag it out to remove it each time is a waste of time.
I never suggested this was flawless. Just an idea to consider.
And Tomahawk, if you want something to make your life 50% better NOW, then try Quicksilver for a day. Just one.
--B
Originally posted by Tomahawk
kim kap sol,
A hundred years from now when meta data is fully functional, can look at my pictures and tell it is of a kids soccer game that includes my niece (and knows her name and the team name) so I can do keyword searches without putting in keywords I'll be more than happy to see tabbed finder go away again (heck, even the whole finder). I want something that improves my life NOW.
Well, if that's the case, use PathFinder.
I'd hate for Apple to waste time on such things when the whole concept is changing anyways,
For example, it's great that GM is working on hydrogen cars. However, since the technology isn't there yet I fully expect GM to introduce a few more gas powered vehicles and hopefully some hybrids.
Another example is iTunes 5. Why did Apple waste precious resources developing iTunes 5 for PowerPC when we will all be switching to Intel in the next few years anyway. They released it because it's something they can push and sell now.
In the near future I don't see the Finder going anywhere so I'd like to see them improve it at least a little (realistically it could probably still use a lot of help).
Originally posted by bergz
I agree with Tomahawk's last post. While Kickaha's right about the mechanics of the tabs and the sidebar being the same, the fact is that one is meant for immediate purposes, ephemeral ones (tabs) that you can with one click close when you're done, and the other (sidebar) is meant for the opposite: namely, things you do very commonly, folders you ALWAYS want available.
If the mechanics are the same, then how are they 'meant' for different purposes? The *only* difference there is that instead of clicking on a close button, you drag it off the Sidebar. That's it.
Tomahawk, I ask you the same thing: why are they 'meant' for different things? And, resize your window vertically. Voila. More room... just as you would increase your window sideways to show more tabs.
Again, no difference in these arguments.
I'll provide one for you though: closing a window containing tabs wipes out all those tabs irrevocably. Closing a window with Sidebar items does not.
Really, I'm more interested in getting to the bottom of the functional differences between tabs and the Sidebar than having an argument on whether they should be there.
For instance... tabs and the Bookmark Bar in Safari... similar situation. I use the Bookmark Bar rather like tabs, a lot of the time - for temporary storage... but one I want to persist for a bit. If I really want to store them, I move them into the Bookmarks folders permanently.
Why should I have to think about temporary-a-few-minutes vs. temporary-a-few-days? Wouldn't it make more sense to have them use the same system?
Both tabs and bookmark bar items give me quick access to something, both are temporary, both use up (two different sets of) screen space...
And as with tabs vs. Sidebar, it's the same per-window vs. all-windows issue, but I still maintain that the browser is a rather unique set of constraints, and that tabs are a poor idea in general for apps in light of robust window management features.
Look at it this way... take tabs to the extreme, and you've just reinvented MDI... a UI paradigm *even Microsoft* is avoiding like the plague these days.
Just a thought to generate discussion.
Originally posted by Tomahawk
Based on that argument there shouldn't be a single new car introduced any time in the near future. You have to make the best product you can sell now using currently available technology.
For example, it's great that GM is working on hydrogen cars. However, since the technology isn't there yet I fully expect GM to introduce a few more gas powered vehicles and hopefully some hybrids.
Another example is iTunes 5. Why did Apple waste precious resources developing iTunes 5 for PowerPC when we will all be switching to Intel in the next few years anyway. They released it because it's something they can push and sell now.
In the near future I don't see the Finder going anywhere so I'd like to see them improve it at least a little (realistically it could probably still use a lot of help).
Sure...they'll improve it 'a little' but I don't think they'll change concepts by adding tabs just like GM won't make concept-changing changes to their gas powered vehicles and just like iTunes 5 didn't introduce very many changes.
A large problem with software (or even hardware makers) is that if they introduce something new to an app, they're expected to keep this new feature throughout the app's lifetime. I don't want Apple to make the mistake of introducing tabs to the Finder because then everyone will expect the Finder to have tabs forever. For the good of society (hehe), I think the Finder should remain as-is until the OS has fully transitioned to a metadata-rich environment.
Imagine the outcry if they removed tabs from Safari and replaced them with a more sensible solution.
:-)
Funny, I can't think of many examples at the moment (it's amazing how fast you forget the old once you have used the new long enough).
Kickaha,
The closing of all of the tabs is one of the functions I would like! I think you hit the nail the head on the bookmark thing. The side bar is a bookmark. Heck, what would be really cool is if I could make a sidebar shortcut that auto opens some tabbed windows! So for example, when I'm working on our intranet I could click one link and have all the windows I need available!
I use column view so my windows are already pretty wide. I don't necessarily want to make the windows even deeper (then they are taking up even more space which was one of the things I wanted to get away from in the first place...)
It would appear I'll be looking at trying some of the suggested options on my personal machine. No offense to the developers but I tend to not screw with stuff on our work machines.
Originally posted by Tomahawk
Then again, look at the amount of crap we didn't have from OS 9 (and in a few cases probably still don't)...
:-)
Funny, I can't think of many examples at the moment (it's amazing how fast you forget the old once you have used the new long enough).
"My voice is my password"
...and "tabbed folders"...I used to love dragging windows to the bottom edge of the screen and organizing things this way. However, the Dock is sufficient now and works somewhat like how I set up my tabbed folders in OS 9: all my most used apps and documents.
Ahh the memories.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
"tabbed folders"...
A tabbed dock is available as well :: Workstrip
Originally posted by Kickaha
If the mechanics are the same, then how are they 'meant' for different purposes? The *only* difference there is that instead of clicking on a close button, you drag it off the Sidebar. That's it.
Actually, navigation is the big difference. I click in the sidebar on my "current projects" item. I then navigate down a directory or two or more. Then click on a different sidebar item to find an item. Copy it, then click back on "current projects" item and I am not at the same place I navigated to as I would be with a tab in the web browser...
The sidebar works the same as bookmarks.
On a different note, I haven't had a need for tabs in the finder. Really, the true solution is in the "Recent Places" under the Go menu (or is it called freqently used places?). You can think about this as a list of smart or intelligent tabs that are constantly keeping up with where you are navigating; even if you are doing so in applications and not in the finder!! In fact, they are also available in the open/save dialog boxes. I rarely have to navigate anywhere more than once. And if you need something around for longer, use the sidebar...