Apple wants *the computer* to be the center of your digital lifestyle...not the TV.
Recording a broadcast via MCE or set-top boxes is akin to recording an internet radio stream on the computer...it's a dumb idea that people love because they don't know better...well...until iTunes came in and offered a music-download service people liked. The same will happen with TV shows.
PVR is a problem in search of a solution...and Apple's got the solution: kill PVR. Recording, programming time intervals, etc. is stoneage stuff according to Apple...and I agree with Apple, it's really dumb. Apple is trying to kill the PVR monstrosity before it goes mainstream.
Apple wants *the computer* to be the center of your digital lifestyle...not the TV.
Recording a broadcast via MCE or set-top boxes is akin to recording an internet radio stream on the computer...it's a dumb idea that people love because they don't know better...well...until iTunes came in and offered a music-download service people liked. The same will happen with TV shows.
PVR is a problem in search of a solution...and Apple's got the solution: kill PVR. Recording, programming time intervals, etc. is stoneage stuff according to Apple...and I agree with Apple, it's really dumb. Apple is trying to kill the PVR monstrosity before it goes mainstream.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
I am completely with you on this one.
TV is not the future, just as cd's were not the future when apple released the iPod.
Video on demand delivered through internet is the future and TV will go away. Videocasting and downlaoding content in HD h264 is the future and that is exactly what apple is aiming at and this is the first step.
I must say I'm slightly amazed that some here don't see this. T.D.!!
Well, I'm kind of with Groverat on this one, except I think only two parts of the puzzle are missing:
* getting content that doesn't come via iTunes Store
* getting it off your Mac and onto your TV
I was basically expecting the second one to be announced today i.e. Airport Express with a built in video decoder chip allowing you to beam whatever is playing in Quicktime/DVD Player/iTunes to your TV (and/or Hi-Fi) compressed and have it decoded on the fly. The format restrictions of iTunes content kind of has me confused, but on the other hand, adding the ability to play these limited file types/sizes should be an absolute gimme when they upgrade the Express.
Tying in with the new remote it wouldn't be too difficult to have an IR receiver (and optional extension cable for that runs to the front of your TV/Hi-Fi) that talks back to your Mac via Airport and show Front Row or the iPod/AirportExpress cutdown version of same on your TV.
As for the first part, I'm really not too worried. iTunes lets you rip CDs but what with cracking CSS on DVDs being illegal, I can't see Apple fighting that fight. It can't be too long before a third party releases software that encodes downloaded films and DVDs into iPod standard video.
As for Tivo style recording broadcast shows with or without the co-operation of the broadcasting channel, it is an ugly hack and a technical/political quagmire (as Tivo is discovering) that Apple is best staying out of. As others have said downloading content off the web (including free, illegal/pirated, 'mature', non-mainstream, podcast/vodcast stuff as well as top billed TV shows) is the future.
Hopefully Apple is going to do what every smart mover does in a format war: take advantage of the attraction of piracy and porn to drive your platform while still being able to make money off the legit content too.
I built my dad a PVR running Linux with MythTV. It replaced his aging VCR, and he couldn't be more happy with it. He selects shows he likes (using the remote control) and then they just get recorded - he can then bring up a list of shows on the disk at any time to see what he can watch.
The point is, he does this from his armchair in the living room. He does not go to the computer, which is in the other room surrounded by filing cabinets and stuff. He doesn't have to sit 2 feet from the screen.
People don't want to watch TV on the computer, except for college students with a single room and no space. That's why the PVR is useful - it belongs in the living room, not in the study!
PVR is a problem in search of a solution...and Apple's got the solution: kill PVR. Recording, programming time intervals, etc. is stoneage stuff according to Apple...and I agree with Apple, it's really dumb. Apple is trying to kill the PVR monstrosity before it goes mainstream.
Wow, have you used a PVR? It has radically changed how I get my television. And TV isn't going to die anytime soon. Content is content, and if Apple thinks it will all be downloaded they are wrong.
Wow, have you used a PVR? It has radically changed how I get my television. And TV isn't going to die anytime soon. Content is content, and if Apple thinks it will all be downloaded they are wrong.
Lets look at it this way...if the iTMS offered HD versions of every show you watch and you could pick and download *legally* the shows you want, wouldn't you rather pick the iTMS over PVR solution?
I'm sorry but PVR is like having a computer record the songs you want out of a stream of radio content...it was necessary (but illegal) a few years ago but pretty dumb today (considering the better alternatives which are also legal). The same applies to video, believe it or not.
The only problem that remains now is getting everyone on fast computers with large HHDs and broadband. Then Apple can start selling HD content.
I think the new iMac will push this...they removed the internal modem and built in an iSight. This is almost the same move as removing the floppy drive from the lineup...it did wonders to get people off an ancient technology...I think dial-up's days are numbered.
TV is not just about pre-recorded televisions shows.
One of the greatest appeals of television is its ability to deliver live content (news & sports, specifically).
It's about it providing beaucoup new content for "free"; people want to check out new shows but do they want to pay $2 specifically to watch an episode of Commander-in-Chief for the first time when they can pay $40 a month to watch that and every single other TV show that comes on (and even record them to watch later) at any time they like?
Does Apple think people are going to be happy to wait until after a football/soccer/basketball/baseball game to watch it? Or is Apple going to provide those live through iTMS? If so, what's the difference between that and what's going on now?
You do not have to ditch live content to offer TV shows via download.
You can do both.
The only reason Microsoft isn't doing it right now (at least I don't think they are) is because they are much more about the technological side of it and not about the content side (hence no MS music store). They're happy to let others do that part of it (or not do that part of it, as the case may be). This is, naturally, a pretty big hole. Pretty much the only one left in MCE.
TV is nowhere near dead. It's not going anywhere. And the longer it takes Apple to realize this the harder it will be for them to get a toehold.
The only reason we should care about Apple's role in this at all is that a company with the creativity of Apple has the potential of making the best home theater PC box. They have a knack for putting extremely useful stuff together in a single, easy-to-use package, but it looks like their heads are 100 yards up their asses on this.
Anyone who actually sits down and uses WinMCE hooked up to digital cable with 802.11g on a big TV will understand.
Then, put iMovie in there to edit home movies from your TV and make DVDs from your little Mac mini thing? Apple would be printing money.
And this needs to be big just so everyone understands it:
People do not want to sit at their 17" computer screen when they've got a 50" plasma with a nice, comfortable couch in the other room.
Well, to be fair, you download every TV show you watch - you just have a pre-set time when it's streamed.
Think of it that way, and an iTMS model isn't that far off from what a PVR does for you.
Quite. Except the pricing; iTMS is per episode and TV is subscription based.
We can't download TV from the iTMS, but $34.99 for season 1 of Lost is a bit extreme. I looked on Play and it's $32.99 on DVD. As Kim Kap Sol suggests, Apple need HD content, not 320x240 stuff, Paying more for so poor quality is silly. I'm more interested in watching content at home than on the iPod anyway.
Apple needs to invent a new pricing scheme for things, obviously they're not into subscription, and I'm not the biggest fan either, although it does let you flick through and try out new things.
No arguments re: pricing, but I think that as PVR and on-demand become more the norm, there will be a shift from streaming subscription to file-based per-unit pricing at the content provider end.
TV is not just about pre-recorded televisions shows.
One of the greatest appeals of television is its ability to deliver live content (news & sports, specifically).
It's about it providing beaucoup new content for "free"; people want to check out new shows but do they want to pay $2 specifically to watch an episode of Commander-in-Chief for the first time when they can pay $40 a month to watch that and every single other TV show that comes on (and even record them to watch later) at any time they like?
Does Apple think people are going to be happy to wait until after a football/soccer/basketball/baseball game to watch it? Or is Apple going to provide those live through iTMS? If so, what's the difference between that and what's going on now?
You do not have to ditch live content to offer TV shows via download.
You can do both.
The only reason Microsoft isn't doing it right now (at least I don't think they are) is because they are much more about the technological side of it and not about the content side (hence no MS music store). They're happy to let others do that part of it (or not do that part of it, as the case may be). This is, naturally, a pretty big hole. Pretty much the only one left in MCE.
TV is nowhere near dead. It's not going anywhere. And the longer it takes Apple to realize this the harder it will be for them to get a toehold.
The only reason we should care about Apple's role in this at all is that a company with the creativity of Apple has the potential of making the best home theater PC box. They have a knack for putting extremely useful stuff together in a single, easy-to-use package, but it looks like their heads are 100 yards up their asses on this.
Anyone who actually sits down and uses WinMCE hooked up to digital cable with 802.11g on a big TV will understand.
Then, put iMovie in there to edit home movies from your TV and make DVDs from your little Mac mini thing? Apple would be printing money.
And this needs to be big just so everyone understands it:
People do not want to sit at their 17" computer screen when they've got a 50" plasma with a nice, comfortable couch in the other room.
kks:
In what way is PVR "illegal"?
Dude...get a grip on yourself.
Nobody said shows couldn't be streamed to the computer. The difference between PVR and the solution I'm talking about? It's simple...instead of paying for another device that does some of the things a computer can do but with fuzzier and stretched picture, you could have the computer handle all the TV content streaming (via internet), music content streaming, on-demand audio downloads, on-demand video downloads.
This isn't possible today but will be in a few years...TV is here to stay because it's so entrenched in everyone's lifestyle that they could never imagine getting TV content elsewhere...
But if people woke up and bought a huge computer monitors instead of shelling money for a big plasma screen, a PVR system, digital cable, and forever restrict the room its in to only play TV/movie content when it could potentially also double as a room where you can access the internet, video conference, play 'computer' games, etc.
If you want to spend money on redundant hardware, go right ahead...I think that game consoles, PVRs, TVs, cable, phones, are things that could be consolidated into the computer people sat down and realized that all of this is possible TODAY, and would save you lots of money TODAY.
The *only* reason why land phones, TVs, and consoles aren't going away is because they've existed for almost a century, half-century and quarter-century respectively. Almost everyone's got one. Computers and the internet are getting there...and they'll replace everything I mentioned when fast internet will become a reality to everyone.
How long before 50" LCD screens are produced and are affordable? How long before OS X becomes resolution independent and therefore usable without having your nose glued to the screen? How long?
I say 2 years...and that's being generous.
It doesn't make sense to put money on WinMCE when you could have a full computer instead. People are suckers for buying the same things or redundant things over and over again...it doesn't surprise me one bit that someone would spend money on having a dumbed-down computer with TV-in and recording abilities hooked to the TV. I suppose it's the best solution today...but when computer monitors become as large as TVs and when content can be streamed or on-demand content saved to the computer, why is TV and satellite dishes and cable important?
Recent surveys say that most people watch TV while they're on their computer or while they doing something else. People used to plop down on the couch and watch TV and do nothing else but this isn't the case anymore. The only time people really sit down in front of the idiot box and do nothing else is when a football, baseball, basketball or hockey game is on and they've got friends over or while watching a movie.
I love Front Row. As soon as the mini has it and the IR remote (you know its coming!) I'm getting one to hookup full time to my TV, etc. Add an eyeTV and it's probably a better TiVo than my actual TiVo!
Now if TiVo let me pull my content off the box to shift to my iPod, that'd be another story.
This isn't possible today but will be in a few years
Not only is it possible today, it's been possible for well over a year.
've got a friend who was able to watch every Yankees game live via the web this on his TV through MCE.
Go to http://www.mlb.tv to see what I'm talking about (though it's the playoffs now so it's changed).
Apple, and its loyalists, are apparently living in a giant bubble pretending we're still in 1995 TV-wise.
Quote:
But if people woke up and bought a huge computer monitors instead of shelling money for a big plasma screen, a PVR system, digital cable, and forever restrict the room its in to only play TV/movie content when it could potentially also double as a room where you can access the internet, video conference, play 'computer' games, etc.
I can do all that right now with MCE. Every single bit of that. I know because I've done it.
If I'm buying a 50" TV I'm going to have it for 5 or more years. The last thing in the world I want is every component tied inextricably to it. Why should I have to throw my TV away if I want updated networking or a bigger hard drive.
How, exactly, is bundling the Apple Media Center PC into a television going to make both components noticeably less expensive?
If your attitude reflects Apple's they are in a fantasy world.
Quote:
It doesn't make sense to put money on WinMCE when you could have a full computer instead.
WinMCE is Windows with a Media Center app that handles all the front-end TV stuff. It's Windows. It does everything Windows does.
Have you ever in your life even seen a Windows Media Center Edition PC in action? Honest question.
Kick:
I don't think people are ever going to be into the "buy per episode" thing, ever. You can already pay for a subscription on-demand services that essentially work like an interactive TV channels.
TV shows on DVD being so popular is a good sign for "buy per episode", but I still don't think it's going to happen. Buying an entire season and having it forever is different than buying one episode and having it as long as your computer isn't acting up.
Not only is it possible today, it's been possible for well over a year.
've got a friend who was able to watch every Yankees game live via the web this on his TV through MCE.
Go to http://www.mlb.tv to see what I'm talking about (though it's the playoffs now so it's changed).
...
WinMCE is Windows with a Media Center app that handles all the front-end TV stuff. It's Windows. It does everything Windows does.
Have you ever in your life even seen a Windows Media Center Edition PC in action? Honest question.
So your only beef is that there's no PVR in Apple's solution? Like I said...PVR is just automated recording of a stream...it's a concept of the late 70's early 80's.
Why pay for cable/satellite TV or phone when it can all be handled by the internet? Just like the floppy and dial-up, cable is dead...the content will eventually be streamed via the internet and also offered as on-demand downloads. Apple is one step ahead by pushing this move instead of encouraging redundant services streamed to redundant devices.
BTW, how can recording copyrighted content not be illegal...just because VCRs existed in the days and just because you could record songs off the radio, doesn't mean it was legal. If DVDs of TV shows are selling today, it's because these things weren't free to be recorded legally back in the days.
WinMCE is Windows with a Media Center app that handles all the front-end TV stuff.
BING BING BING
All it is is a Windows box with PVR. THAT'S IT. That's what I've been saying all along. There's nothing really special there, there's nothing hugely groundbreaking. Linux + MythBox does the same thing. Video encoder boards have been around since the late 80s, all some one did was look at Tivo and go "oh duh" and slap it into a Windows app.
Question: what's the interconnect for signal in on that MCE box?
I *don't* think that stuffing it all into one unit is smart, ala iMac or KKS's big assed display. But... MCE is just a computer (Mac mini) + wireless keyboard and mouse (both available for Mac) + PVR (the one missing hole). I have half a dozen friends with MCE or MythBox units. Everyone loves the PVR... just like my friends with Tivo love theirs. Other than the PVR, it's *just a Windows machine*. Nothing spectacular there, IMO.
You were talking about all the neat stuff you could do with it like it was God's Gift to the Living Room, but all I see is you putting a computer video signal through a TV. Um, woot?
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I you consider the MCE box to be first and foremost a PVR, then all that Windows stuff is going to seem *damned amazing*, like your Tivo suddenly grew up and had a major major upgrade. But if you look at it as a computer first and foremost, which it is, then adding in the PVR functionality isn't really that big a deal. It's just one app.
I've been feeding my computers' video to my TV for, um, years now. Nothing new or interesting there. Heck, I borrowed a friend's wireless keyboard and gyro mouse about five years ago to try it out on the couch... worked great, took all of about five minutes to set up. There's nothing new in MCE except a PVR, which you can get on Linux too.
Woo.
Quote:
I don't think people are ever going to be into the "buy per episode" thing, ever. You can already pay for a subscription on-demand services that essentially work like an interactive TV channels.
Funny, people seem to prefer buy per song over subscription...
Quote:
TV shows on DVD being so popular is a good sign for "buy per episode", but I still don't think it's going to happen. Buying an entire season and having it forever is different than buying one episode and having it as long as your computer isn't acting up.
You mean like when my DVD player crashed? No joke. Bad disc, deep scratch, caused the player to lock up *hard*. Had to call the manufacturer and get info on how to reset the motherboard.
I think you're pulling out straw men at this point, 'rat.
I'll take that nonresponse on the MCE question as a "no".
Quote:
So your only beef is that there's no PVR in Apple's solution?
I have two beefs.
1 ? No PVR.
2 ? Front Row is tied to an iMac.
Quote:
Just like the floppy and dial-up, cable is dead...the content will eventually be streamed via the internet and also offered as on-demand downloads.
So if cable is dead, how is the Internet going to get into people's houses?
You are playing pointless rhetorical games here. All the Internet is is streaming and all downloading is is capturing that stream. And guess how the Internet is coming into people's homes? cable!
And I know not to hope too much for you to actually answer questions people ask you, but let me try again:
What is Apple's solution to live television, like news and sports?
Quote:
BTW, how can recording copyrighted content not be illegal
It is legal because there is no law against it. The distribution of recorded copyrighted material is against the law.
This was all hashed out a long time ago with the introduction of the VCR. Fair use.
Quote:
If DVDs of TV shows are selling today, it's because these things weren't free to be recorded legally back in the days.
False.
DVDs of TV shows are selling because they are all the shows consolidated in pretty boxes, they are mastered for highest quality and they offer extras like commentary or cut scenes.
Kick:
Quote:
There's nothing really special there, there's nothing hugely groundbreaking. Linux + MythBox does the same thing.
Well, it was out before MythTV and it's about 10x easier to set up and use than Linux + MythTV.
And it streams wirelessly from any other PC running filesharing. Audio, video, pictures, whatever.
Again with words like "groundbreaking". What is the purpose of making these pointless abstracts the focus of discussion?
I find it hilarious that a seasoned Apple apologist such as yourself is trotting out "dude you can do that on Linux". I thought consolidation of functionality into an easy-to-use package was the main part of Apple's genius! But when others do it? "duh use linux n00b".
Quote:
Question: what's the interconnect for signal in on that MCE box?
In the setup I've used it was a Hauppage TV card, some flavor of ATI all-in-wonder w/ DVI out using a DVI->Component adapter to the TV.
But the end-user doesn't have to know any of that crap. All they will have to do is find the right plugs, which isn't exactly rocket science (especially if you include them with the media center box).
Quote:
But... MCE is just a computer (Mac mini) + wireless keyboard and mouse (both available for Mac) + PVR (the one missing hole).
+ wireless file sharing. Yes. I think I've made it pretty clear that all of this is not complicated and that Apple could very easily do it. I've made that fairly explicit every step of the way.
Quote:
You were talking about all the neat stuff you could do with it like it was God's Gift to the Living Room, but all I see is you putting a computer video signal through a TV. Um, woot?
Those specific things I was doing were pretty damned cool. If they don't impress you that's fine but a lot of people would love to be able to do all that easily. As I said above, more people will buy WindowsMCE than will buy Apple computers this year.
So you can be as blasé as you like about it, and so can Apple, but the market is growing without them.
Quote:
But if you look at it as a computer first and foremost, which it is, then adding in the PVR functionality isn't really that big a deal. It's just one app.
I don't look at it from any perspective than this:
What does this technology allow me to do?
That's all I care about. I'm not in the business of apologizing for the shortcomings of Microsoft's solution or Apple's solution, I'm in the business of using my television and using my computer and comparing those two solutions to see what suits me best.
I don't care about "revolutionary" or "groundbreaking". I care about what the technology lets me do.
Quote:
Funny, people seem to prefer buy per song over subscription
Apple. Orange.
Music has always come in individual, paid-for packages.
Quote:
You mean like when my DVD player crashed?
As far as the DVD player crashing, that's meaningless. The DVD player isn't the storage area of your content, it's the just player and it's a pretty cheap one at that.
And you can get scratched discs replaced. Some studios charge for it, others don't.
If Apple allowed re-download of previously bought tracks/shows that would negate that problem. As far as I know they do not allow that now.
I'll take that nonresponse on the MCE question as a "no".
I have two beefs.
1 ? No PVR.
2 ? Front Row is tied to an iMac.
1. Nobody but you cares.
2. You don't know this. Nobody has said Front Row won't be available on other Macs.
Quote:
So if cable is dead, how is the Internet going to get into people's houses?
You are playing pointless rhetorical games here. All the Internet is is streaming and all downloading is is capturing that stream. And guess how the Internet is coming into people's homes? cable!
Heh...*you're* the one playing the rhetorical games. First, what I meant was cable/satelite TV, and you know it...second, not all internet goes through cable...third, if you do have internet through cable and TV through cable, why are you paying for 2 services? Wouldn't it be better if you only had to pay for the internet service to get your TV, internet and phone needs?
Quote:
And I know not to hope too much for you to actually answer questions people ask you, but let me try again:
What is Apple's solution to live television, like news and sports?
There have been solutions to live television for a long time...haven't you ever watched a live Stevenote (Steve Jobs keynote)?
Quote:
It is legal because there is no law against it. The distribution of recorded copyrighted material is against the law.
This was all hashed out a long time ago with the introduction of the VCR. Fair use.
Then content producers will have no problem streaming them for free or giving the episodes away on iTMS.
Quote:
False.
DVDs of TV shows are selling because they are all the shows consolidated in pretty boxes, they are mastered for highest quality and they offer extras like commentary or cut scenes.
Ok...again, if this is truly the case, then you can get these for free 'on-demand' since there won't be any extras, cut-scenes or packaging or whatever.
If you had bothered to read even this thread you would know that isn't true.
Quote:
2. You don't know this. Nobody has said Front Row won't be available on other Macs.
What other Macs is it available for?
Quote:
Wouldn't it be better if you only had to pay for the internet service to get your TV, internet and phone needs?
You'd still have to pay more for the added service of TV & phone.
Unless Apple is going to somehow take control of that last 10 feet, you're going to pay for it. And even if Apple did, do you think they would just give it to you for no added charge?
DVDs of TV shows are selling because they are all the shows consolidated in pretty boxes, they are mastered for highest quality and they offer extras like commentary or cut scenes.
Well i've been buying, borrowing/swapping, and *ahem* acquiring (roughly VHS quality) discs of TV shows for two reasons:
* I can watch them whenever I want, particularly in blocks of 2 or 3 episodes and I don't need to rearrange my schedule to watch the show (basically the exact same reason people pee their pants about Tivo except with a delay and more limited (but still overwhelmingly abundant) selection)
* no *fucking* adverts (can I over-emphasise this? NO! It's often frightening how short programs actually are without adverts, hence you can sit through 2 or three episodes at a gulp with no real problems.)
None of the three reasons you give really apply to me in this case (though I do like nice boxes and the extra high quality releases -- for big screen use-- when buying DVDs of films. I've found that extras almost always suck though.)
Another interesting data point: my wife, completely on her own in a surprising display of how geeky you can be when you want to, discovered that you could buy TV shows (and movies and music videos) a la cart from our cable provider and ran up a small fortune buying the right to watch a purchased item for up to 24hrs with PVR style pause, rewind etc. Prices, if I recall are about $6 dollars for a movie, $3 dollars per TV episode, $2 per music video. Basically the same as the iTunes business model and it mostly renders the Tivo superflous. The big Tivo-like thing in this neck of the woods is Sky + and it's built into a satellite providers service, because they can't stream direct. Which kind of re-inforces my feeling that Tivo is a hack, an ingenious hack mind but one that has had it's time and place, and not one that content providers are going to sit still for and let 3rd parties make the big bucks on.
Also, you keep asking what Apple's answer to live TV is? If it's live, can you not just turn on your TV and watch it? Or am I missing something?
Then give me the ability to burn them on a DVD once a month. (electronically limited) That way piracy isn't a major issue. That way I can drop my Satellite.
Comments
Apple wants *the computer* to be the center of your digital lifestyle...not the TV.
Recording a broadcast via MCE or set-top boxes is akin to recording an internet radio stream on the computer...it's a dumb idea that people love because they don't know better...well...until iTunes came in and offered a music-download service people liked. The same will happen with TV shows.
PVR is a problem in search of a solution...and Apple's got the solution: kill PVR. Recording, programming time intervals, etc. is stoneage stuff according to Apple...and I agree with Apple, it's really dumb. Apple is trying to kill the PVR monstrosity before it goes mainstream.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Just to clarify what I mean...
Apple wants *the computer* to be the center of your digital lifestyle...not the TV.
Recording a broadcast via MCE or set-top boxes is akin to recording an internet radio stream on the computer...it's a dumb idea that people love because they don't know better...well...until iTunes came in and offered a music-download service people liked. The same will happen with TV shows.
PVR is a problem in search of a solution...and Apple's got the solution: kill PVR. Recording, programming time intervals, etc. is stoneage stuff according to Apple...and I agree with Apple, it's really dumb. Apple is trying to kill the PVR monstrosity before it goes mainstream.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
I am completely with you on this one.
TV is not the future, just as cd's were not the future when apple released the iPod.
Video on demand delivered through internet is the future and TV will go away. Videocasting and downlaoding content in HD h264 is the future and that is exactly what apple is aiming at and this is the first step.
I must say I'm slightly amazed that some here don't see this. T.D.!!
* getting content that doesn't come via iTunes Store
* getting it off your Mac and onto your TV
I was basically expecting the second one to be announced today i.e. Airport Express with a built in video decoder chip allowing you to beam whatever is playing in Quicktime/DVD Player/iTunes to your TV (and/or Hi-Fi) compressed and have it decoded on the fly. The format restrictions of iTunes content kind of has me confused, but on the other hand, adding the ability to play these limited file types/sizes should be an absolute gimme when they upgrade the Express.
Tying in with the new remote it wouldn't be too difficult to have an IR receiver (and optional extension cable for that runs to the front of your TV/Hi-Fi) that talks back to your Mac via Airport and show Front Row or the iPod/AirportExpress cutdown version of same on your TV.
As for the first part, I'm really not too worried. iTunes lets you rip CDs but what with cracking CSS on DVDs being illegal, I can't see Apple fighting that fight. It can't be too long before a third party releases software that encodes downloaded films and DVDs into iPod standard video.
As for Tivo style recording broadcast shows with or without the co-operation of the broadcasting channel, it is an ugly hack and a technical/political quagmire (as Tivo is discovering) that Apple is best staying out of. As others have said downloading content off the web (including free, illegal/pirated, 'mature', non-mainstream, podcast/vodcast stuff as well as top billed TV shows) is the future.
Hopefully Apple is going to do what every smart mover does in a format war: take advantage of the attraction of piracy and porn to drive your platform while still being able to make money off the legit content too.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
PVR is a problem in search of a solution...
It is not.
I built my dad a PVR running Linux with MythTV. It replaced his aging VCR, and he couldn't be more happy with it. He selects shows he likes (using the remote control) and then they just get recorded - he can then bring up a list of shows on the disk at any time to see what he can watch.
The point is, he does this from his armchair in the living room. He does not go to the computer, which is in the other room surrounded by filing cabinets and stuff. He doesn't have to sit 2 feet from the screen.
People don't want to watch TV on the computer, except for college students with a single room and no space. That's why the PVR is useful - it belongs in the living room, not in the study!
Amorya
Originally posted by kim kap sol
PVR is a problem in search of a solution...and Apple's got the solution: kill PVR. Recording, programming time intervals, etc. is stoneage stuff according to Apple...and I agree with Apple, it's really dumb. Apple is trying to kill the PVR monstrosity before it goes mainstream.
Wow, have you used a PVR? It has radically changed how I get my television. And TV isn't going to die anytime soon. Content is content, and if Apple thinks it will all be downloaded they are wrong.
Think of it that way, and an iTMS model isn't that far off from what a PVR does for you.
Originally posted by blue2kdave
Wow, have you used a PVR? It has radically changed how I get my television. And TV isn't going to die anytime soon. Content is content, and if Apple thinks it will all be downloaded they are wrong.
Lets look at it this way...if the iTMS offered HD versions of every show you watch and you could pick and download *legally* the shows you want, wouldn't you rather pick the iTMS over PVR solution?
I'm sorry but PVR is like having a computer record the songs you want out of a stream of radio content...it was necessary (but illegal) a few years ago but pretty dumb today (considering the better alternatives which are also legal). The same applies to video, believe it or not.
The only problem that remains now is getting everyone on fast computers with large HHDs and broadband. Then Apple can start selling HD content.
I think the new iMac will push this...they removed the internal modem and built in an iSight. This is almost the same move as removing the floppy drive from the lineup...it did wonders to get people off an ancient technology...I think dial-up's days are numbered.
One of the greatest appeals of television is its ability to deliver live content (news & sports, specifically).
It's about it providing beaucoup new content for "free"; people want to check out new shows but do they want to pay $2 specifically to watch an episode of Commander-in-Chief for the first time when they can pay $40 a month to watch that and every single other TV show that comes on (and even record them to watch later) at any time they like?
Does Apple think people are going to be happy to wait until after a football/soccer/basketball/baseball game to watch it? Or is Apple going to provide those live through iTMS? If so, what's the difference between that and what's going on now?
You do not have to ditch live content to offer TV shows via download.
You can do both.
The only reason Microsoft isn't doing it right now (at least I don't think they are) is because they are much more about the technological side of it and not about the content side (hence no MS music store). They're happy to let others do that part of it (or not do that part of it, as the case may be). This is, naturally, a pretty big hole. Pretty much the only one left in MCE.
TV is nowhere near dead. It's not going anywhere. And the longer it takes Apple to realize this the harder it will be for them to get a toehold.
The only reason we should care about Apple's role in this at all is that a company with the creativity of Apple has the potential of making the best home theater PC box. They have a knack for putting extremely useful stuff together in a single, easy-to-use package, but it looks like their heads are 100 yards up their asses on this.
Anyone who actually sits down and uses WinMCE hooked up to digital cable with 802.11g on a big TV will understand.
Then, put iMovie in there to edit home movies from your TV and make DVDs from your little Mac mini thing? Apple would be printing money.
And this needs to be big just so everyone understands it:
People do not want to sit at their 17" computer screen when they've got a 50" plasma with a nice, comfortable couch in the other room.
kks:
In what way is PVR "illegal"?
Originally posted by Kickaha
Well, to be fair, you download every TV show you watch - you just have a pre-set time when it's streamed.
Think of it that way, and an iTMS model isn't that far off from what a PVR does for you.
Quite. Except the pricing; iTMS is per episode and TV is subscription based.
We can't download TV from the iTMS, but $34.99 for season 1 of Lost is a bit extreme. I looked on Play and it's $32.99 on DVD. As Kim Kap Sol suggests, Apple need HD content, not 320x240 stuff, Paying more for so poor quality is silly. I'm more interested in watching content at home than on the iPod anyway.
Apple needs to invent a new pricing scheme for things, obviously they're not into subscription, and I'm not the biggest fan either, although it does let you flick through and try out new things.
No arguments re: quality either.
Originally posted by groverat
TV is not just about pre-recorded televisions shows.
One of the greatest appeals of television is its ability to deliver live content (news & sports, specifically).
It's about it providing beaucoup new content for "free"; people want to check out new shows but do they want to pay $2 specifically to watch an episode of Commander-in-Chief for the first time when they can pay $40 a month to watch that and every single other TV show that comes on (and even record them to watch later) at any time they like?
Does Apple think people are going to be happy to wait until after a football/soccer/basketball/baseball game to watch it? Or is Apple going to provide those live through iTMS? If so, what's the difference between that and what's going on now?
You do not have to ditch live content to offer TV shows via download.
You can do both.
The only reason Microsoft isn't doing it right now (at least I don't think they are) is because they are much more about the technological side of it and not about the content side (hence no MS music store). They're happy to let others do that part of it (or not do that part of it, as the case may be). This is, naturally, a pretty big hole. Pretty much the only one left in MCE.
TV is nowhere near dead. It's not going anywhere. And the longer it takes Apple to realize this the harder it will be for them to get a toehold.
The only reason we should care about Apple's role in this at all is that a company with the creativity of Apple has the potential of making the best home theater PC box. They have a knack for putting extremely useful stuff together in a single, easy-to-use package, but it looks like their heads are 100 yards up their asses on this.
Anyone who actually sits down and uses WinMCE hooked up to digital cable with 802.11g on a big TV will understand.
Then, put iMovie in there to edit home movies from your TV and make DVDs from your little Mac mini thing? Apple would be printing money.
And this needs to be big just so everyone understands it:
People do not want to sit at their 17" computer screen when they've got a 50" plasma with a nice, comfortable couch in the other room.
kks:
In what way is PVR "illegal"?
Dude...get a grip on yourself.
Nobody said shows couldn't be streamed to the computer. The difference between PVR and the solution I'm talking about? It's simple...instead of paying for another device that does some of the things a computer can do but with fuzzier and stretched picture, you could have the computer handle all the TV content streaming (via internet), music content streaming, on-demand audio downloads, on-demand video downloads.
This isn't possible today but will be in a few years...TV is here to stay because it's so entrenched in everyone's lifestyle that they could never imagine getting TV content elsewhere...
But if people woke up and bought a huge computer monitors instead of shelling money for a big plasma screen, a PVR system, digital cable, and forever restrict the room its in to only play TV/movie content when it could potentially also double as a room where you can access the internet, video conference, play 'computer' games, etc.
If you want to spend money on redundant hardware, go right ahead...I think that game consoles, PVRs, TVs, cable, phones, are things that could be consolidated into the computer people sat down and realized that all of this is possible TODAY, and would save you lots of money TODAY.
The *only* reason why land phones, TVs, and consoles aren't going away is because they've existed for almost a century, half-century and quarter-century respectively. Almost everyone's got one. Computers and the internet are getting there...and they'll replace everything I mentioned when fast internet will become a reality to everyone.
How long before 50" LCD screens are produced and are affordable? How long before OS X becomes resolution independent and therefore usable without having your nose glued to the screen? How long?
I say 2 years...and that's being generous.
It doesn't make sense to put money on WinMCE when you could have a full computer instead. People are suckers for buying the same things or redundant things over and over again...it doesn't surprise me one bit that someone would spend money on having a dumbed-down computer with TV-in and recording abilities hooked to the TV. I suppose it's the best solution today...but when computer monitors become as large as TVs and when content can be streamed or on-demand content saved to the computer, why is TV and satellite dishes and cable important?
Recent surveys say that most people watch TV while they're on their computer or while they doing something else. People used to plop down on the couch and watch TV and do nothing else but this isn't the case anymore. The only time people really sit down in front of the idiot box and do nothing else is when a football, baseball, basketball or hockey game is on and they've got friends over or while watching a movie.
Do you really need a TV in most cases?
Now if TiVo let me pull my content off the box to shift to my iPod, that'd be another story.
This isn't possible today but will be in a few years
Not only is it possible today, it's been possible for well over a year.
've got a friend who was able to watch every Yankees game live via the web this on his TV through MCE.
Go to http://www.mlb.tv to see what I'm talking about (though it's the playoffs now so it's changed).
Apple, and its loyalists, are apparently living in a giant bubble pretending we're still in 1995 TV-wise.
But if people woke up and bought a huge computer monitors instead of shelling money for a big plasma screen, a PVR system, digital cable, and forever restrict the room its in to only play TV/movie content when it could potentially also double as a room where you can access the internet, video conference, play 'computer' games, etc.
I can do all that right now with MCE. Every single bit of that. I know because I've done it.
If I'm buying a 50" TV I'm going to have it for 5 or more years. The last thing in the world I want is every component tied inextricably to it. Why should I have to throw my TV away if I want updated networking or a bigger hard drive.
How, exactly, is bundling the Apple Media Center PC into a television going to make both components noticeably less expensive?
If your attitude reflects Apple's they are in a fantasy world.
It doesn't make sense to put money on WinMCE when you could have a full computer instead.
WinMCE is Windows with a Media Center app that handles all the front-end TV stuff. It's Windows. It does everything Windows does.
Have you ever in your life even seen a Windows Media Center Edition PC in action? Honest question.
Kick:
I don't think people are ever going to be into the "buy per episode" thing, ever. You can already pay for a subscription on-demand services that essentially work like an interactive TV channels.
TV shows on DVD being so popular is a good sign for "buy per episode", but I still don't think it's going to happen. Buying an entire season and having it forever is different than buying one episode and having it as long as your computer isn't acting up.
Originally posted by groverat
KKS:
Not only is it possible today, it's been possible for well over a year.
've got a friend who was able to watch every Yankees game live via the web this on his TV through MCE.
Go to http://www.mlb.tv to see what I'm talking about (though it's the playoffs now so it's changed).
...
WinMCE is Windows with a Media Center app that handles all the front-end TV stuff. It's Windows. It does everything Windows does.
Have you ever in your life even seen a Windows Media Center Edition PC in action? Honest question.
So your only beef is that there's no PVR in Apple's solution? Like I said...PVR is just automated recording of a stream...it's a concept of the late 70's early 80's.
Why pay for cable/satellite TV or phone when it can all be handled by the internet? Just like the floppy and dial-up, cable is dead...the content will eventually be streamed via the internet and also offered as on-demand downloads. Apple is one step ahead by pushing this move instead of encouraging redundant services streamed to redundant devices.
BTW, how can recording copyrighted content not be illegal...just because VCRs existed in the days and just because you could record songs off the radio, doesn't mean it was legal. If DVDs of TV shows are selling today, it's because these things weren't free to be recorded legally back in the days.
Originally posted by groverat
WinMCE is Windows with a Media Center app that handles all the front-end TV stuff.
BING BING BING
All it is is a Windows box with PVR. THAT'S IT. That's what I've been saying all along. There's nothing really special there, there's nothing hugely groundbreaking. Linux + MythBox does the same thing. Video encoder boards have been around since the late 80s, all some one did was look at Tivo and go "oh duh" and slap it into a Windows app.
Question: what's the interconnect for signal in on that MCE box?
I *don't* think that stuffing it all into one unit is smart, ala iMac or KKS's big assed display. But... MCE is just a computer (Mac mini) + wireless keyboard and mouse (both available for Mac) + PVR (the one missing hole). I have half a dozen friends with MCE or MythBox units. Everyone loves the PVR... just like my friends with Tivo love theirs. Other than the PVR, it's *just a Windows machine*. Nothing spectacular there, IMO.
You were talking about all the neat stuff you could do with it like it was God's Gift to the Living Room, but all I see is you putting a computer video signal through a TV. Um, woot?
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I you consider the MCE box to be first and foremost a PVR, then all that Windows stuff is going to seem *damned amazing*, like your Tivo suddenly grew up and had a major major upgrade. But if you look at it as a computer first and foremost, which it is, then adding in the PVR functionality isn't really that big a deal. It's just one app.
I've been feeding my computers' video to my TV for, um, years now. Nothing new or interesting there. Heck, I borrowed a friend's wireless keyboard and gyro mouse about five years ago to try it out on the couch... worked great, took all of about five minutes to set up. There's nothing new in MCE except a PVR, which you can get on Linux too.
Woo.
I don't think people are ever going to be into the "buy per episode" thing, ever. You can already pay for a subscription on-demand services that essentially work like an interactive TV channels.
Funny, people seem to prefer buy per song over subscription...
TV shows on DVD being so popular is a good sign for "buy per episode", but I still don't think it's going to happen. Buying an entire season and having it forever is different than buying one episode and having it as long as your computer isn't acting up.
You mean like when my DVD player crashed? No joke. Bad disc, deep scratch, caused the player to lock up *hard*. Had to call the manufacturer and get info on how to reset the motherboard.
I think you're pulling out straw men at this point, 'rat.
I'll take that nonresponse on the MCE question as a "no".
So your only beef is that there's no PVR in Apple's solution?
I have two beefs.
1 ? No PVR.
2 ? Front Row is tied to an iMac.
Just like the floppy and dial-up, cable is dead...the content will eventually be streamed via the internet and also offered as on-demand downloads.
So if cable is dead, how is the Internet going to get into people's houses?
You are playing pointless rhetorical games here. All the Internet is is streaming and all downloading is is capturing that stream. And guess how the Internet is coming into people's homes? cable!
And I know not to hope too much for you to actually answer questions people ask you, but let me try again:
What is Apple's solution to live television, like news and sports?
BTW, how can recording copyrighted content not be illegal
It is legal because there is no law against it. The distribution of recorded copyrighted material is against the law.
This was all hashed out a long time ago with the introduction of the VCR. Fair use.
If DVDs of TV shows are selling today, it's because these things weren't free to be recorded legally back in the days.
False.
DVDs of TV shows are selling because they are all the shows consolidated in pretty boxes, they are mastered for highest quality and they offer extras like commentary or cut scenes.
Kick:
There's nothing really special there, there's nothing hugely groundbreaking. Linux + MythBox does the same thing.
Well, it was out before MythTV and it's about 10x easier to set up and use than Linux + MythTV.
And it streams wirelessly from any other PC running filesharing. Audio, video, pictures, whatever.
Again with words like "groundbreaking". What is the purpose of making these pointless abstracts the focus of discussion?
I find it hilarious that a seasoned Apple apologist such as yourself is trotting out "dude you can do that on Linux". I thought consolidation of functionality into an easy-to-use package was the main part of Apple's genius! But when others do it? "duh use linux n00b".
Question: what's the interconnect for signal in on that MCE box?
In the setup I've used it was a Hauppage TV card, some flavor of ATI all-in-wonder w/ DVI out using a DVI->Component adapter to the TV.
But the end-user doesn't have to know any of that crap. All they will have to do is find the right plugs, which isn't exactly rocket science (especially if you include them with the media center box).
But... MCE is just a computer (Mac mini) + wireless keyboard and mouse (both available for Mac) + PVR (the one missing hole).
+ wireless file sharing. Yes. I think I've made it pretty clear that all of this is not complicated and that Apple could very easily do it. I've made that fairly explicit every step of the way.
You were talking about all the neat stuff you could do with it like it was God's Gift to the Living Room, but all I see is you putting a computer video signal through a TV. Um, woot?
Those specific things I was doing were pretty damned cool. If they don't impress you that's fine but a lot of people would love to be able to do all that easily. As I said above, more people will buy WindowsMCE than will buy Apple computers this year.
So you can be as blasé as you like about it, and so can Apple, but the market is growing without them.
But if you look at it as a computer first and foremost, which it is, then adding in the PVR functionality isn't really that big a deal. It's just one app.
I don't look at it from any perspective than this:
What does this technology allow me to do?
That's all I care about. I'm not in the business of apologizing for the shortcomings of Microsoft's solution or Apple's solution, I'm in the business of using my television and using my computer and comparing those two solutions to see what suits me best.
I don't care about "revolutionary" or "groundbreaking". I care about what the technology lets me do.
Funny, people seem to prefer buy per song over subscription
Apple. Orange.
Music has always come in individual, paid-for packages.
You mean like when my DVD player crashed?
As far as the DVD player crashing, that's meaningless. The DVD player isn't the storage area of your content, it's the just player and it's a pretty cheap one at that.
And you can get scratched discs replaced. Some studios charge for it, others don't.
If Apple allowed re-download of previously bought tracks/shows that would negate that problem. As far as I know they do not allow that now.
And still? what of live TV?
Originally posted by groverat
kks:
I'll take that nonresponse on the MCE question as a "no".
I have two beefs.
1 ? No PVR.
2 ? Front Row is tied to an iMac.
1. Nobody but you cares.
2. You don't know this. Nobody has said Front Row won't be available on other Macs.
So if cable is dead, how is the Internet going to get into people's houses?
You are playing pointless rhetorical games here. All the Internet is is streaming and all downloading is is capturing that stream. And guess how the Internet is coming into people's homes? cable!
Heh...*you're* the one playing the rhetorical games. First, what I meant was cable/satelite TV, and you know it...second, not all internet goes through cable...third, if you do have internet through cable and TV through cable, why are you paying for 2 services? Wouldn't it be better if you only had to pay for the internet service to get your TV, internet and phone needs?
And I know not to hope too much for you to actually answer questions people ask you, but let me try again:
What is Apple's solution to live television, like news and sports?
There have been solutions to live television for a long time...haven't you ever watched a live Stevenote (Steve Jobs keynote)?
It is legal because there is no law against it. The distribution of recorded copyrighted material is against the law.
This was all hashed out a long time ago with the introduction of the VCR. Fair use.
Then content producers will have no problem streaming them for free or giving the episodes away on iTMS.
False.
DVDs of TV shows are selling because they are all the shows consolidated in pretty boxes, they are mastered for highest quality and they offer extras like commentary or cut scenes.
Ok...again, if this is truly the case, then you can get these for free 'on-demand' since there won't be any extras, cut-scenes or packaging or whatever.
1. Nobody but you cares.
If you had bothered to read even this thread you would know that isn't true.
2. You don't know this. Nobody has said Front Row won't be available on other Macs.
What other Macs is it available for?
Wouldn't it be better if you only had to pay for the internet service to get your TV, internet and phone needs?
You'd still have to pay more for the added service of TV & phone.
Unless Apple is going to somehow take control of that last 10 feet, you're going to pay for it. And even if Apple did, do you think they would just give it to you for no added charge?
Oh hey what's this at the bottom of the page?
There have been solutions to live television for a long time...haven't you ever watched a live Stevenote (Steve Jobs keynote)?
Yes, and it's just like watching live TV, only far less reliable.
Then content producers will have no problem streaming them for free or giving the episodes away on iTMS.
Perhaps not, but could you tell me how that's different from what we already have?
Originally posted by groverat
DVDs of TV shows are selling because they are all the shows consolidated in pretty boxes, they are mastered for highest quality and they offer extras like commentary or cut scenes.
Well i've been buying, borrowing/swapping, and *ahem* acquiring (roughly VHS quality) discs of TV shows for two reasons:
* I can watch them whenever I want, particularly in blocks of 2 or 3 episodes and I don't need to rearrange my schedule to watch the show (basically the exact same reason people pee their pants about Tivo except with a delay and more limited (but still overwhelmingly abundant) selection)
* no *fucking* adverts (can I over-emphasise this? NO! It's often frightening how short programs actually are without adverts, hence you can sit through 2 or three episodes at a gulp with no real problems.)
None of the three reasons you give really apply to me in this case (though I do like nice boxes and the extra high quality releases -- for big screen use-- when buying DVDs of films. I've found that extras almost always suck though.)
Another interesting data point: my wife, completely on her own in a surprising display of how geeky you can be when you want to, discovered that you could buy TV shows (and movies and music videos) a la cart from our cable provider and ran up a small fortune buying the right to watch a purchased item for up to 24hrs with PVR style pause, rewind etc. Prices, if I recall are about $6 dollars for a movie, $3 dollars per TV episode, $2 per music video. Basically the same as the iTunes business model and it mostly renders the Tivo superflous. The big Tivo-like thing in this neck of the woods is Sky + and it's built into a satellite providers service, because they can't stream direct. Which kind of re-inforces my feeling that Tivo is a hack, an ingenious hack mind but one that has had it's time and place, and not one that content providers are going to sit still for and let 3rd parties make the big bucks on.
Also, you keep asking what Apple's answer to live TV is? If it's live, can you not just turn on your TV and watch it? Or am I missing something?
Iron Chef
Iron Chef America
Monster Garage
Monster House
Junkyard Wars
Viva-La-Bam
(older)
Daria
Red Dwarf
Invader Zim
Red vs. Blue
I'll buy them tomorrow. (all of them)
Then give me the ability to burn them on a DVD once a month. (electronically limited) That way piracy isn't a major issue. That way I can drop my Satellite.