Who owns this G5?
I am looking for advise and counsel about this issue. I have written Emails and a certified snail mail to the delivery company, but it seems they are finished with the issue. I just Emailed Apple Corporation and I await their response. In the mean time, what do you think?
"Mia" ordered a Power Mac G5 2.7GHtz dual on May 2, 2005.
Delivery company tries to deliver computer on May 4, but nobody home.
Delivery person walks up two houses and climbs 27 steps to ask my 75-year old mother (who has alzheimer's disease)if she will hold on to the box. Mother agrees.
I visit my mother on May 7 and noticed the box on the floor. Knowing that my mom is into doing "funny" stuff these past months, I asked her if she ordered the G5.
She said "no" and told me the story of a man who came to her door with a big box and asked to leave it with her.
In researching via the Web, I have seen the "signature" that my mom supposedly had "signed" and it looks nothing like anything my mom can still sign.
My mom told my on May 7 that she was tired of having the big box near her front door and that if I couldn't find someone to take it, she would put it out for the trash.
I took it. But then I drove it down two houses to try to give it to "Mia". And that is when I found a note taped to the front door that read-in effect-, Dear Delivery Person, I do not accept delivery of the Apple Computer. The note was signed by "Mia" but there was no date on the note.
"Mia" as it turned out, was a houseguest of the owner of the home and since then, both "Mia" and the owner have moved away.
Many people have suggested to me that I open the still sealed box. Folks think that since the delivery company hasn't responded well to my attempts, and "Mia" has not contacted me, my mother, or anyone else to my knowledge, that the computer now belongs to whoever has possession of it now.
So I am asking readers of this forum; Who owns the G5?
By the way, if it turns out that Apple doesn't want it back, ACI doesn't want it back, the delivery company or "Mia" don't want it back, it will replace my very ancient, but lovable "biege" G3 that has been a good friend. Please don't ask if you can have it, there have already been many folks who have volunteered to take it off my hands.
"Mia" ordered a Power Mac G5 2.7GHtz dual on May 2, 2005.
Delivery company tries to deliver computer on May 4, but nobody home.
Delivery person walks up two houses and climbs 27 steps to ask my 75-year old mother (who has alzheimer's disease)if she will hold on to the box. Mother agrees.
I visit my mother on May 7 and noticed the box on the floor. Knowing that my mom is into doing "funny" stuff these past months, I asked her if she ordered the G5.
She said "no" and told me the story of a man who came to her door with a big box and asked to leave it with her.
In researching via the Web, I have seen the "signature" that my mom supposedly had "signed" and it looks nothing like anything my mom can still sign.
My mom told my on May 7 that she was tired of having the big box near her front door and that if I couldn't find someone to take it, she would put it out for the trash.
I took it. But then I drove it down two houses to try to give it to "Mia". And that is when I found a note taped to the front door that read-in effect-, Dear Delivery Person, I do not accept delivery of the Apple Computer. The note was signed by "Mia" but there was no date on the note.
"Mia" as it turned out, was a houseguest of the owner of the home and since then, both "Mia" and the owner have moved away.
Many people have suggested to me that I open the still sealed box. Folks think that since the delivery company hasn't responded well to my attempts, and "Mia" has not contacted me, my mother, or anyone else to my knowledge, that the computer now belongs to whoever has possession of it now.
So I am asking readers of this forum; Who owns the G5?
By the way, if it turns out that Apple doesn't want it back, ACI doesn't want it back, the delivery company or "Mia" don't want it back, it will replace my very ancient, but lovable "biege" G3 that has been a good friend. Please don't ask if you can have it, there have already been many folks who have volunteered to take it off my hands.
Comments
That is quite the boost from a Beige G3... I know.
I would say make a effort to return the box for 30 days. After that it is up to you. Check your local laws. Sometimes after a certain number of days the package is legally yours if you try to contact the owners and they don't respond.
If you don't want it, you could always send it to me.
EDIT: Obvious spelling error. Must have been drinking. 8)
It's yours. There's nothing more you can do. Apple doesn't want it, Mia is unreachable (and apparently doesn't want it), and you are left with the box. Consider it fate.
The original owners obviously have no need for it anymore.
You have intercepted it, but that doesn't mean it is yours. Actually, you'd be suprised but it won't ever be yours unless you pay for it. I'm not sure where you live, but I'd be happy to check out some of the potential legal ramifications for you.
Your best bet is to CALL Apple, indicate you are returning a product that was unintentionally delivered to you.
Originally posted by OBJRA10
From a legal perspective, be careful. The whole thing is pretty cloudy, but lets assume "Mia" ordered it. When she refused it, she may have received her money back, in which case it now belongs to the retailer - in this case possibly Apple.
You have intercepted it, but that doesn't mean it is yours. Actually, you'd be suprised but it won't ever be yours unless you pay for it. I'm not sure where you live, but I'd be happy to check out some of the potential legal ramifications for you.
Your best bet is to CALL Apple, indicate you are returning a product that was unintentionally delivered to you.
Thank you for your comments.
I understand you idea about calling Apple. I am reluctant to do so for several reasons. Keeping written records with date stamps protects all parties. I don't wish to wait on hold to talk to anyone about a problem that I did not create. I am better able to explain the issue in writing and I have review power over what I write. Also, it is my opinion that I am not returning a product that was unintentionally delivered to me. I believe that the delivery person took it upon themself to drop off the item to whoever he/she could so they would not have to deal with an undeliverable item. I believe that if the delivery person used a normal policy of delivery for such a valuable item, then the delivery company should be accountable to Apple Corporation for poor delivery standards.
I still feel obligated to do "the right thing" whatever that turns out to be. At this point, I am assisting my mother who answered the door for the delivery person. The G5 was not delivered to me. But I surely don't want to see my mother get into any legal hassle over the G5. It is my mother's opinion that the G5 now belongs to me. If I don't want it, she said I ought to put it into the trash.
Both my mother and I live in California.
If you work for Apple Corporation and can get hold of the Email I sent to them, you are free to read the particulars that I won't publish in the forum. I have submitted the serial number, order number, name of the delivery company, all the addresses, and purshase numbers that come with the shipping document. The G5 remains sealed in its box.
Thank you again, Mark
Originally posted by WhoownstheG5
Thank you for your comments.
I understand you idea about calling Apple. I am reluctant to do so for several reasons. Keeping written records with date stamps protects all parties. I don't wish to wait on hold to talk to anyone about a problem that I did not create. I am better able to explain the issue in writing and I have review power over what I write. Also, it is my opinion that I am not returning a product that was unintentionally delivered to me. I believe that the delivery person took it upon themself to drop off the item to whoever he/she could so they would not have to deal with an undeliverable item. I believe that if the delivery person used a normal policy of delivery for such a valuable item, then the delivery company should be accountable to Apple Corporation for poor delivery standards.
I still feel obligated to do "the right thing" whatever that turns out to be. At this point, I am assisting my mother who answered the door for the delivery person. The G5 was not delivered to me. But I surely don't want to see my mother get into any legal hassle over the G5. It is my mother's opinion that the G5 now belongs to me. If I don't want it, she said I ought to put it into the trash.
Both my mother and I live in California.
If you work for Apple Corporation and can get hold of the Email I sent to them, you are free to read the particulars that I won't publish in the forum. I have submitted the serial number, order number, name of the delivery company, all the addresses, and purshase numbers that come with the shipping document. The G5 remains sealed in its box.
Thank you again, Mark
First,
I do not work for Apple. I am an attorney who has been both a prosecutor and a judge. I do not live in California.
There are several key issues here, but the primary one is that the computer is not, and never will be "yours." Whether you are obligated to make an effort to see that it is returned could be a defense against criminal prosecution, but I hardly believe you really want to go there.
You said "The G5 wa not delivered to me." That pretty much sums it up right there. You took it from your mother, who should have refused delivery. That's Criminal Conversion - a misdemeanor - at best.
At worst, you committed a felony according to the California Penal Code Section 485
"One who finds lost property under circumstances which give him
knowledge of or means of inquiry as to the true owner, and who
appropriates such property to his own use, or to the use of another
person not entitled thereto, without first making reasonable and just
efforts to find the owner and to restore the property to him, is
guilty of theft."
Since the value is assumedly over $400USD, it is Grand Theft which is punishable by jail time.
You have to assume the property belongs to Apple Computer. Unfortunately for you, the burden is on you - not the delivery person, and not Apple.
Originally posted by OBJRA10
... without first making reasonable and just
efforts to find the owner and to restore the property to him
That's exactly what is going on here.
It is the buyers responsibility to file a complaint when they receive a bill but no package. From that complaint, Apple will backtrack where the package was dropped off and ask for it back. If Apple doesn't want the package back, there is no theft and you get a G5.
EDIT: You've had this box since MAY? Take a picture with a digital camera (Preferably in a RAW format) of the unopened box. This will include a date and time stamp with the image. Proof you held on to an unopened box for 6 months (more than I would ever do) and E-mail/snail mail receipts prove you tried to return it.
I still don't believe the computer is mine. That is one reason I call myself "WhoownstheG5". I am sure that neither myself or my mother bought the computer.
In trying to navigate the Apple Web sites, I am finding it very difficult to find somewhere I can go to inquire of Apple without using a login or password. The only place I could find was the product-security Email address which I used. If you know of somewhere I can Email to Apple without using a login or password, please let me know.
I can't be mad at my mother for accepting the box, she thought she was doing the right thing, I guess. I find it very troubling, as I imagine most folks would find troubling, that a delivery company would even think of leaving such a valuable product with a neighbor.
I am also wondering if Apple Corporation or the reseller is looking for the G5. Why hasn't the delivery company contacted my mother to find out where the computer is.
I have no problem with giving the G5 to the rightfull owner as long as they produce documents to prove it is theirs. I do not want a delivery person to knock on my mother's door and request the computer just so he/she can keep it. Could it be that the original delivery person might be using my mother in an attempt to "steal" the computer? If I am in possession of the computer and believe that this is true, it is my duty to do what the law and I believe is necessary.
You mentioned California Penal Code. Thank you for that. I feel at this I am a care-taker for my mother's interest while this process goes forward. I removed the computer from my mother's house to keep her from taking it to the trash, attempt to deliver it to "Mia", and to determine who is the owner of the computer and return it to them.
I have talked to a reseller of P.C.s and he said he never insures his sales when using this particular delivery company. Is it possible that from the manufacturer, through the reseller, and delivery company, there is no insurance on a valuable computer?
I hope someone from Appple Corporation reads the Email soon or visits this particular forum.
Thank you again for assisting me in understanding about some of the laws. I am not worried about being arrested or charged with a crime because my actions are out in the open. I am trying to resolve the issue in an open forum, I have dated documents on file, I have contacted several parties, and I have not opened the box.
Originally posted by OBJRA10
You have to assume the property belongs to Apple Computer. Unfortunately for you, the burden is on you - not the delivery person, and not Apple. [/B]
If you ever get ahold of someone, I think that Apple will want it back. My friend ordered a G5 and it was shipped. It was supposed to be signed for, but the delivery company just left it at his house when they were out of town. He was tracking the order and saw that it had been delivered and freaked out. He had a neighbor go to his house and pick it up so it turned out Ok. He e-mailed Apple to let them no that the shipper had not required a signature as they were supposed to and asked what would've happened if it'd been stolen.
Somehow the wires were crossed at Apple and he got notification that a G5 would be shipped to him soon. He called them up and told them that he got his G5 the first time around. The second shipment was cancelled and they thanked him for his honesty. They didn't even give him an iTunes gift certificate for it, but he sleeps well at night.
Since "yours" is a discontinued model there is a snowball's chance in hell that they'll not want to mess with it, but if I were them I'd pay to have it shipped back to me and sell it in the refurb store. (and give you an iPod shuffle or something, but that's just me) I think you should get ahold of them, even if you have to register an e-mail address. It's something you'd have to do if you ever wanted to buy from the online store anyway. This way if that snowball makes it and they say you can keep it, you too can sleep well at night, unless the sleep light on your G5 keeps you up.
Had you not contacted Apple, my advice would be this:
Keep it and keep your mouth shut, without a doubt. You do not want to incur the wrath of a corporate behemoth, it will crush you like an insect.
Open the box, use the computer and if you get any phone calls or letters from Apple or "Mia" or the delivery company bury it 10 feet deep in your back yard and say "I no speakee the English" over and over until they leave you alone.
And I do not recommend this because of "Oh cool free G5!", I recommend this based on the fact that Apple has an insane amount of power and you have none, if some anonymous legal drone in Apple's basement decides they want to treat you like a criminal you will be beaten. Best not to contact them at all and give them that chance. You made a good faith effort to get the computer to the person who might have paid for it, that's enough. You're done.
Look at Objra's post if you need any more convincing. If you try to return it in good faith there is a decent chance they will come after you as if you are a thief. The legal system is not designed to protect good people, it's designed to cater to the whim of the monied. It is your job to protect yourself and your mother by shutting up about this immediately.
And don't feel guilty about it. There is no reason to.
In theory if you receive unsolicited goods and the sender wants them back they have to agree with you to get them returned at your convenience. This is to stop people being sent the entire encyclopedia britannica for no reason then getting a bill.
After 6 months, and no organization of collection it is the property of the recipient AS LONG AS THERE IS NO FISHY BUSINESS (don't think that's the precise legal wording).
Your mother seems to be the one who accepted the package so it's her who has pesponsabiliy, there is nothing (except this forum) to link you to it. Get her to give it to you as a present. You know no better than this and if it is traced back to your mother apologize and explain her extenuating circumstances and return the package in all good faith.
Don't take offence but the only strange bit of the story is the "mia" being a friend if someone who has conveniently moved out the area since. Why they did not chase the package originally and find it had been delivered only 2 doors away. But hay there had to be a ccard paying for this somewhere along the line so I guess its as good an explanation as any.
j.
Originally posted by Placebo
MUST... TAKE... G5!
Here's what you should do
Move your mother to a new neighborhood into a new house under an alias, then change your phone number and forward all of your calls to your mothers new house. Wait 6 weeks and then open your new G5. If anyone calls, writes, or shows up to collect the computer tell them that the person who used to live at the address in question has been deployed to Iraq. Enjoy.
if some anonymous legal drone in Apple's basement decides they want to treat you like a criminal you will be beaten.
Actually, he will be very rich after suing apple for frivolous legal action and moral damages to him and his mother.
"One who finds lost property under circumstances which give him
knowledge of or means of inquiry as to the true owner, and who
appropriates such property to his own use, or to the use of
person not entitled thereto, without first making reasonable and just
efforts to find the owner and to restore the property to him, is
guilty of theft."
Nobody "found" any "lost" property here. When UPS delivers stuff to your place, you didn't "find" it. At best - it was given to you.
without first making reasonable and just
efforts to find the owner and to restore the property to him
I would say that a reasonable court would find that his actions were just and reasonable.
On the other side, no other party in this case has, so far, been reasonably curious as to what happened to their package. Thus it is reasonable to assume that this package is simply not valuable enough to them to spend a reasonable amount of resources to determine its location.
Thanks,
Mia
Originally posted by skatman
Actually, he will be very rich after suing apple for frivolous legal action and moral damages to him and his mother.
The American justice system... representing the weak and powerless...
Originally posted by groverat
You already contacted Apple, so prepare for the wrath.
Had you not contacted Apple, my advice would be this:
Keep it and keep your mouth shut, without a doubt. You do not want to incur the wrath of a corporate behemoth, it will crush you like an insect.
Open the box, use the computer and if you get any phone calls or letters from Apple or "Mia" or the delivery company bury it 10 feet deep in your back yard and say "I no speakee the English" over and over until they leave you alone.
And I do not recommend this because of "Oh cool free G5!", I recommend this based on the fact that Apple has an insane amount of power and you have none, if some anonymous legal drone in Apple's basement decides they want to treat you like a criminal you will be beaten. Best not to contact them at all and give them that chance. You made a good faith effort to get the computer to the person who might have paid for it, that's enough. You're done.
Look at Objra's post if you need any more convincing. If you try to return it in good faith there is a decent chance they will come after you as if you are a thief. The legal system is not designed to protect good people, it's designed to cater to the whim of the monied. It is your job to protect yourself and your mother by shutting up about this immediately.
And don't feel guilty about it. There is no reason to.
I thank you for your comments.
I did contact Apple and a person identifying himself as a "Project Manager III, Senior Investigator, Corporate Security" responded earlier today. I will be happy to call him tomorrow.
I work for a super, big, giant corporation who just bought the rights to use the old "Ma Bell" motto: "We don't care...we don't have to". I know the thoughtlessness of big companies.
Whatever "wrath" Apple might have in store for me will be informative. Bad press is bad press. Even wrath-makers don't like bad press.
I would expect that the "Project Manager" has already visited this forum. If not, he should look at all the comments.
As I have not opened the box or used the computer, I am still obeying all the laws I know of, including California Penal Code Section 485 because I am making reasonable and just efforts to return the property to its rightfull owner.
I also gave the delivery company reasonable time to come and pick up the box they mis-delivered.
I want to ask the "Project Manager" several questions that I hope to be able to post the answers to on Tuesday evening:
Hasn't Apple Corporation been looking for the G5? If not, why not?
Why would Apple Corporation use a delivery service that provides such little security for the products they sell?
How routine are mid-deliveries and non-returned items to Apple Corporation?
How much of "lost" revenues due to mis-deliveries, theft, and non-returns, are applied to the purchase price of the other products Apple sells? How much of a true concern is this for Apple, and do they consider issues like this "spillage"?
I thank everyone who have given suggestions all through this process. It is fun to read the comments and know that everything published in this forum is recorded.
I am also keeping many comments and replies in separate files for future use, if needed.
Stay tuned, more fun tomorrow.