[B]Yes, because it was written from scratch, without code cruft.
Thus spake Chucker
Quote:
A luxury OSes can't afford these days, at least not on the desktop market.
That much is true. Only "hobby" OSes can afford to implement something cleanly and as efficiently as possible because they are not under public/financial pressure to deliver.
But even Zeta OS, the re-implementation of BeOS by yellowTab is fast as hell and they are a company that is under public/financial pressure to deliver.
And there's nothing fundementally old or missing in Zeta, yet it still remains speedy. Even XFCE can't match that sucker.
A bit late back into the thread, but what the heck ...
I understand the statement that users don't like submenus (although I have never seen much evidence of this myself). However, in this case, the main command is in the main menu and only navigation is in submenus.
My experience of BeOS was that once I had that function available I never cut and paste, never dragged and dropped.
As for speed, BeOS was soooo much faster than anything else it is not funny. It was really fast on my ancient Pentium 166. It could play multiple videos, multiple audio tracks at once. It had brilliant multiprocessor support with almost 100% utilisation of second processors (because every app was massively multithreaded). It also had cool (for the time) features like OS level MP3 ripping, CDDA extraction as WAV, AIFF or MP3 straight from the disk, software to play audio in reverse.
I love OSX, but BeOS was a beautiful operating system that in many ways was years ahead of its time.
I hope Apple hasn't fogotten BeOS's strengths when developing Leopard.
File CCP may work for you, but it is dangerous to some users.
Thus, I'm happy that this feature must be installed separately by a user rather than a part of the default install. It has saved thousands if not millions of users from minor or major data loss. If you've never heard woes of data lost to file CCP, you've likely never supported large groups of users. Seriously, user are far dumber than you realize.
You say you witnessed loss of data due to copy/paste but there is no supporting evidence in your post that points to copy/paste as a reason for data loss.
As far as I know, if you copy a file then change it via a program (ie. save it) then the clipboard is cleared of the file. Where is the data loss?
Of course if you delete something (move to trash) it can no longer be pasted. The trash exists as a backup and if a user deletes a file and empties the trash it's their fault, not the system.
Copy/paste for files is a good thing and computer noobs are not going to know about it. Those who DO know about it and use it are generally prepared to be accountable if they lose files due to their own actions. We are all backing up our files anyway, right?
Personally, I think there are much more dangerous tools in OS X that can result in data loss if used improperly.
As for (11) try minimizing a Safari window and right-clicking it in the dock to close it. It won't show the option. instead you need to re-open the window, then close it. It is silly and inconsistent.
12 incorrect as well? You seem to like to point out being smarter then me. I am a webdesigner and game designer so I know where I am talking about. It's very handy to being able to cut and paste.
Your method of copying files, going back and then deleting the files is plain silly and VERY time consuming. Not handy when you're moving files all the time.
You are basicly saying that a less perfect option is good enough...if everyone would have the same point of view, there would be no improvements in design.
never mind. Something to discuss with interaction designers.
well why dont you go to windows and have a damn good time putting up with that crap? really, if you don't like it, NO ONE is forcing use to use OS X. clearly apple's products are not for you.
well why dont you go to windows and have a damn good time putting up with that crap? really, if you don't like it, NO ONE is forcing use to use OS X. clearly apple's products are not for you.
Try Path Finder which has the drop-stack. Basicly you drop files into the drop stack window (cut), then go to your destination folder, and move files out of the dropstack again (paste). Works very well. The drawback is that it uses a lot of space in the window, while cut-paste is mostly just behaviour.
Quote:
Something I just realized: In Windows, if you cut an item, and then cut another different one, the original just goes right bnack to where it came from; I suppose that's to prevent accidential deletions.
True, basicly you are starting a new selection so the old selection becomes invalid. Hold shift or control for multiple file selection.
I never said I knew more about it than you did, I just pointed out an alternative which you don't seem to like. Any way you go about it, you still have to migrate to where you want the data. Whether you cut and paste to the folder or drag and drop it there it shouldn't matter. One wonders why you're moving files in the first place? Shouldn't you have saved the files to the location you wanted them in to begin with? Maybe you're pulling stuff off an external disk ... highliught your items and drag them to where you want them ... still involves migrating to a point in the system.
The Safari argument you're supplying is silly. If every minimized window in Apple's OS operates the same way (Hit the yellow button to minimize, click to maximize, or click to close) then there's no inconsistency in THEIR design ... just in what you're used to. Again, I pointed out an alternative to the right click -> close window, but you didn't like it. Both of our solutions require one mouse click ... both take the same amount of time. You're just used to a Windows way of doing things that lets you access every possible feature you may ever need from a right click menu. I prefer an Apple way of doing things that makes me maximize the window, make sure I want to close what is in the window, and then actually close it with command+w. If you're really that worried about it, script it for yourself, put it on the web and charge interested parties $5 for the script.
AgNuke, the fact that you can't see that the "alternatives" that you are suggesting are horrible cludges is worrying. It's the little things, the attention to detail, that makes all the difference in OSes. Steve Jobs is going on about this all the time in the rare interviews that he gives. Sometimes, I wonder where that attention to detail is going.
Quote:
Originally posted by dacloo
Try Path Finder which has the drop-stack. Basicly you drop files into the drop stack window (cut), then go to your destination folder, and move files out of the dropstack again (paste). Works very well. The drawback is that it uses a lot of space in the window, while cut-paste is mostly just behaviour.
I haven't used it, but that is exactly a feature that I thought Apple should have. In fact, I think that NeXT did have it. I think it was called the shelf.
p.s. dacloo, Is it your post from which I have quoted above that has made this thread horribly wide?
Quote:
Originally posted by ZO
I miss from Windows:
- Right Click on file and drag and have options: move, copy, etc
If I had to single out just one "UI disaster" from Windows, this would probably be it. The Mac OS solution is far more intuitive. Drag the file without modifier keys: the file is moved. Drag the file while pressing option: the file is copied. Drag the file whilst pressing option and command: a file alias is created. With the copy and alias options, a little icon appears indicating the action that will occur.
Quote:
Originally posted by ZO
- I like in windows the ability to Cut any file any then paste it anywhere else, which effectively moves it
- Connecting to an FTP site with the Finder *STILL* gives me Kernel Panics
- Easier Personal File sharing (like in Windows: Select folder, share, done)
agreed on these points.
FTP doesn't give me kernel panics, but that doesn't stop the Finder's FTP support being absolutely awful.
I understand all the problems of how "cutting and pasting" files violates the "cut and paste" metaphor. However, it is nice to have a keyboard shortcut where you can highlight a file, press the keyboard shortcut, navigate to a new location, press another keyboard shortcut, and your originally selected file is now moved.
There is a devastatingly simple solution: Have a feature called "move" that has a keyboard shortcut that isn't command-x. Now this can have the same functionality as Windows' file cut and paste, without being called cut and paste, without using the same keyboard shortcut as cut and paste, and therefore not violating any metaphors or introducing any UI inconsistencies.
There is a devastatingly simple solution: Have a feature called "move" that has a keyboard shortcut that isn't command-x. Now this can have the same functionality as Windows' file cut and paste, without being called cut and paste, without using the same keyboard shortcut as cut and paste, and therefore not violating any metaphors or introducing any UI inconsistencies.
There is a devastatingly simple solution: Have a feature called "move" that has a keyboard shortcut that isn't command-x. Now this can have the same functionality as Windows' file cut and paste, without being called cut and paste, without using the same keyboard shortcut as cut and paste, and therefore not violating any metaphors or introducing any UI inconsistencies.
Yes! Let's call it "Completely Confuse The User And Paste"!
Comments
Originally posted by Chucker
[B]Yes, because it was written from scratch, without code cruft.
Thus spake Chucker
A luxury OSes can't afford these days, at least not on the desktop market.
That much is true. Only "hobby" OSes can afford to implement something cleanly and as efficiently as possible because they are not under public/financial pressure to deliver.
But even Zeta OS, the re-implementation of BeOS by yellowTab is fast as hell and they are a company that is under public/financial pressure to deliver.
And there's nothing fundementally old or missing in Zeta, yet it still remains speedy. Even XFCE can't match that sucker.
Alas, I digress...
I understand the statement that users don't like submenus (although I have never seen much evidence of this myself). However, in this case, the main command is in the main menu and only navigation is in submenus.
My experience of BeOS was that once I had that function available I never cut and paste, never dragged and dropped.
As for speed, BeOS was soooo much faster than anything else it is not funny. It was really fast on my ancient Pentium 166. It could play multiple videos, multiple audio tracks at once. It had brilliant multiprocessor support with almost 100% utilisation of second processors (because every app was massively multithreaded). It also had cool (for the time) features like OS level MP3 ripping, CDDA extraction as WAV, AIFF or MP3 straight from the disk, software to play audio in reverse.
I love OSX, but BeOS was a beautiful operating system that in many ways was years ahead of its time.
I hope Apple hasn't fogotten BeOS's strengths when developing Leopard.
Originally posted by dfiler
File CCP may work for you, but it is dangerous to some users.
Thus, I'm happy that this feature must be installed separately by a user rather than a part of the default install. It has saved thousands if not millions of users from minor or major data loss. If you've never heard woes of data lost to file CCP, you've likely never supported large groups of users. Seriously, user are far dumber than you realize.
You say you witnessed loss of data due to copy/paste but there is no supporting evidence in your post that points to copy/paste as a reason for data loss.
As far as I know, if you copy a file then change it via a program (ie. save it) then the clipboard is cleared of the file. Where is the data loss?
Of course if you delete something (move to trash) it can no longer be pasted. The trash exists as a backup and if a user deletes a file and empties the trash it's their fault, not the system.
Copy/paste for files is a good thing and computer noobs are not going to know about it. Those who DO know about it and use it are generally prepared to be accountable if they lose files due to their own actions. We are all backing up our files anyway, right?
Personally, I think there are much more dangerous tools in OS X that can result in data loss if used improperly.
BeOS is dead, the only reason anyone cares about is because Apple may have bought it. So what?
Originally posted by dacloo
As for (11) try minimizing a Safari window and right-clicking it in the dock to close it. It won't show the option. instead you need to re-open the window, then close it. It is silly and inconsistent.
12 incorrect as well? You seem to like to point out being smarter then me. I am a webdesigner and game designer so I know where I am talking about. It's very handy to being able to cut and paste.
Your method of copying files, going back and then deleting the files is plain silly and VERY time consuming. Not handy when you're moving files all the time.
You are basicly saying that a less perfect option is good enough...if everyone would have the same point of view, there would be no improvements in design.
never mind. Something to discuss with interaction designers.
well why dont you go to windows and have a damn good time putting up with that crap? really, if you don't like it, NO ONE is forcing use to use OS X. clearly apple's products are not for you.
Originally posted by ipodandimac
well why dont you go to windows and have a damn good time putting up with that crap? really, if you don't like it, NO ONE is forcing use to use OS X. clearly apple's products are not for you.
What are you, five years old?
Something I just realized: In Windows, if you cut an item, and then cut another different one, the original just goes right bnack to where it came from; I suppose that's to prevent accidential deletions.
True, basicly you are starting a new selection so the old selection becomes invalid. Hold shift or control for multiple file selection.
Originally posted by AgNuke1707
I never said I knew more about it than you did, I just pointed out an alternative which you don't seem to like. Any way you go about it, you still have to migrate to where you want the data. Whether you cut and paste to the folder or drag and drop it there it shouldn't matter. One wonders why you're moving files in the first place? Shouldn't you have saved the files to the location you wanted them in to begin with? Maybe you're pulling stuff off an external disk ... highliught your items and drag them to where you want them ... still involves migrating to a point in the system.
The Safari argument you're supplying is silly. If every minimized window in Apple's OS operates the same way (Hit the yellow button to minimize, click to maximize, or click to close) then there's no inconsistency in THEIR design ... just in what you're used to. Again, I pointed out an alternative to the right click -> close window, but you didn't like it. Both of our solutions require one mouse click ... both take the same amount of time. You're just used to a Windows way of doing things that lets you access every possible feature you may ever need from a right click menu. I prefer an Apple way of doing things that makes me maximize the window, make sure I want to close what is in the window, and then actually close it with command+w. If you're really that worried about it, script it for yourself, put it on the web and charge interested parties $5 for the script.
AgNuke, the fact that you can't see that the "alternatives" that you are suggesting are horrible cludges is worrying. It's the little things, the attention to detail, that makes all the difference in OSes. Steve Jobs is going on about this all the time in the rare interviews that he gives. Sometimes, I wonder where that attention to detail is going.
Originally posted by dacloo
Try Path Finder which has the drop-stack. Basicly you drop files into the drop stack window (cut), then go to your destination folder, and move files out of the dropstack again (paste). Works very well. The drawback is that it uses a lot of space in the window, while cut-paste is mostly just behaviour.
I haven't used it, but that is exactly a feature that I thought Apple should have. In fact, I think that NeXT did have it. I think it was called the shelf.
p.s. dacloo, Is it your post from which I have quoted above that has made this thread horribly wide?
Originally posted by ZO
I miss from Windows:
- Right Click on file and drag and have options: move, copy, etc
If I had to single out just one "UI disaster" from Windows, this would probably be it. The Mac OS solution is far more intuitive. Drag the file without modifier keys: the file is moved. Drag the file while pressing option: the file is copied. Drag the file whilst pressing option and command: a file alias is created. With the copy and alias options, a little icon appears indicating the action that will occur.
Originally posted by ZO
- I like in windows the ability to Cut any file any then paste it anywhere else, which effectively moves it
- Connecting to an FTP site with the Finder *STILL* gives me Kernel Panics
- Easier Personal File sharing (like in Windows: Select folder, share, done)
agreed on these points.
FTP doesn't give me kernel panics, but that doesn't stop the Finder's FTP support being absolutely awful.
I understand all the problems of how "cutting and pasting" files violates the "cut and paste" metaphor. However, it is nice to have a keyboard shortcut where you can highlight a file, press the keyboard shortcut, navigate to a new location, press another keyboard shortcut, and your originally selected file is now moved.
There is a devastatingly simple solution: Have a feature called "move" that has a keyboard shortcut that isn't command-x. Now this can have the same functionality as Windows' file cut and paste, without being called cut and paste, without using the same keyboard shortcut as cut and paste, and therefore not violating any metaphors or introducing any UI inconsistencies.
There is a devastatingly simple solution: Have a feature called "move" that has a keyboard shortcut that isn't command-x. Now this can have the same functionality as Windows' file cut and paste, without being called cut and paste, without using the same keyboard shortcut as cut and paste, and therefore not violating any metaphors or introducing any UI inconsistencies.
Exactly!!!!
Originally posted by Mr. H
There is a devastatingly simple solution: Have a feature called "move" that has a keyboard shortcut that isn't command-x. Now this can have the same functionality as Windows' file cut and paste, without being called cut and paste, without using the same keyboard shortcut as cut and paste, and therefore not violating any metaphors or introducing any UI inconsistencies.
Yes! Let's call it "Completely Confuse The User And Paste"!
its freaking useful and I use it a dozen times a day on my Winbox..
Originally posted by Chucker
Yes! Let's call it "Completely Confuse The User And Paste"!
I'm sorry, but how is it confusing to have a feature that moves your files and calling that feature "move"?
Currently, there is no file cut-and-paste in OS X, so it wouldn't be changing anything, it would be adding something.