I have heard about the R&D center in the past but something about it rubs me the wrong way.
Apple has been doing R&D in Ireland, where I live, for a long time. Granted, Ireland is not a low cost country (in fact, the standard of living in Ireland is higher than the USA), so I guess that doesn't count. But still, I thought I'd point that out for you.
And while you're pondering, you might consider pondering the fact that the R&D for all the components that make a Mac is done all across the world. From China and Taiwan to Israel (the Core Duo processor).
Instead of whinging, you should concentrate on making the USA a better place to do business in.
And yeah, we should all be afraid of Asia. But instead of whining and things "rubbing us the wrong way", let's work on making our own country more competitive, improving our education system (whether you live in the USA or Ireland, or any other counter for that matter). It's far more productive.
[i] Granted, Ireland is not a low cost country (in fact, the standard of living in Ireland is higher than the USA), so I guess that doesn't count. But still, I thought I'd point that out for you. [/B]
Robin Hood, can you be more specific about what you mean about the standard of living being higher in Ireland than the USA? Do you mean the COST of living? Just curious. I'm fascinated by the changes in Ireland over the last 7-8 years, but I don't know what's driving the change. What are the new industries there?
No, I do not mean the cost of living. "The main factor is income, but other things are also important: health, freedom, unemployment, family life, climate, political stability and security, gender equality, and family and community life."
Now I am not saying things here are perfect, they are not. There is, unfortunately, no such place on earth. But I am working on making things better, not just talking.
You should bear in mind that the USA is probably being dragged down because it has a lot of poorer states. For example, while the standard of living in many parts of Massachusetts are extremely high, the same might not be said for other parts of the country. As such, I am only comparing Ireland to the USA as a whole. Kind of makes things complex, doesn't it?
As far as the cost of living, it's higher than some areas of the USA, but lower than others. For example, renting an apartment in Dublin, Ireland is probably going to be more expensive than most places in Texas, but cheaper than perhaps New York or Boston.
It didn't used to be like this. 15 years ago, things were quite dramatically different. Now, more Irish people are returning than leaving the country. And those that do still leave are doing so for the adventure, rather than economic need (a colleague of mine in a highly paid job left for New Zealand early this year, where he will be paid a fraction, simply because of the adventure).
Now, more Irish people are returning than leaving the country.
What new industry is there that's providing all these jobs?
I must say, I travel to Ireland frequently, at least once a year. I hear all the rhetoric about how much better things are now. But when I travel in the countryside I don't see much difference. More expensive houses - but I don't know how people in small towns are paying for them.
In Dublin I see housing costs that rival the most expensive cities of the USA. But I don't know how they pay for it. I worked for Guinness in Dublin in 1998-1999 and the young people I worked with were paid very little, and they all lived with their parents. Granted, that was before housing costs really skyrocketed. But if I lived with my parents when I was 24 I would consider myself a failure. Sure that's different in Ireland, where it has been the culture for a long time. But I would think young people would want to do away with that part of their history.
Without doing extensive research, my take has always been that a very small percentage of the population had gotten wealthy, and the rest don't realize it hasn't trickled down to them. They hear Celtic Tiger enough and start to believe it. But I'm not sure the Irish are much better off. It looks to me like they're just paying more for everything.
As far as the other things that make up standard of living...
Irish healthcare? I think it's much more advanced in the USA - but it's not accessible to the poor, so what good is it?
Education? I'll give that one to the Irish.
I still don't know where all the money is coming from that the Irish say they have now. I think the country has taken some steps backwards in terms of hospitality with tourists - but they've put up with a lot of boorish Americans along the way, so at some point enough is enough.
So what are the growth industries over there? Why are so many people suddenly driving BMWs and going on weekend golf excusrions for 500 euro a night? Where is the money coming from?!
Personally, I believe that because Ireland is English speaking, coupled with low corporate income tax (a 12.5% flat rate), that has made Ireland an attractive base for multi nationals wanting to do business in Europe. Manufacturing is also currently growing at 5%.
You are certainly correct about income being unequally distributed, but the problem has not yet reached the levels seen in the USA. That being said, it is a problem that needs to be tackled.
If this bothers you and others you Americans should rally your government to give your companies the same tax breaks and other bonuses other countires are willing to give American companies.
That is why they're leaving your country makes it too expensive for them to do competitive business within your own nation.
I actually have a big problem with this philosophy. It's gotten to the point where multinational corporations can pretty much play governments against each other to see who can give the most tax cuts/benefits to them.
The unfortunate result for governments is less taxation income from corporations, yet it still costs the same to run public programs such as education and health care (for countries with public health care). So then governments need to look elsewhere to replace that income -- either by putting it on the shoulders of the general population in the way of taxes and/or hidden fees, or by cutting funding to public programs.
Consider that next time you wonder why the public education system in many places in the US is so bad, or why public health care in Canada has been gutted beyond repair. I guess if we just dump all public programs, we could compete with the tax incentives provided by third-world countries too. Forgive me if I don't consider that to be progress...
If it's up to people to take responsibility for making things better, then it's also up to corporate citizens to share in that responsibility. Unfortunately, there's no incentives for them to do so. Keep prices competitive or die right?
I'd agree with Robin Hood that software is the new big industry in Ireland though I'd have to disagree (partly) with his assumption that more Irish people are returning than leaving.
For the reasons stated by walshbj, housing costs/living costs etc., I have seen countless friends and neighbours searching out better wages and comparatively less expensive places to live and that usually means emigrating to the "big three", USA, England or Australia.
The construction/building industry has been booming in recent years though it does show signs of slowing as land is getting harder to find and much too expensive to develop for purely housing needs.
For those who haven't gone on to third level education there are few career choices and any jobs available to them are poorly paid compared to the cost of living in the "New Ireland".
Those that stay have already carved out their career path in such industries as software development etc. and therefore can somewhat afford the spiralling cost of living.
The "Celtic Tiger" IMHO was just a moniker put around by a government who, while lowering corporate taxation to attract big business, did little to curb the excessive price rises in necessities such as housing and consumables for the ordinary citizen. That 'Tiger' made many already wealthy people even more so and left joe public to wonder exactly where the money went when he added up the bills at the end of the month.
The promised benefits of moving from the 'Punt" to the 'Euro' never materialised. If anything it made things much more expensive than before. You only have to drive an hour up the motorway, cross the border and watch the many hundreds of 'free-staters' load up on food, electricals and alcohol as if there were no tomorrow (although things are pretty bad "up there" also). Things are not as rosy as some might have you believe.
Indeed, it is a problem that needs to be tackled, though it is harder to cure a sore when it has been left to fester for so long.
In response to walshbj's question... people are suddenly driving BMWs and going on weekend golf excusrions for 500 Euro a night because the government has told them they can live the dream, only thing is they have to re-mortgage to do so.
OK. Rant over... now, BUY*insert your country here*!
I actually have a big problem with this philosophy. It's gotten to the point where multinational corporations can pretty much play governments against each other to see who can give the most tax cuts/benefits to them.
The unfortunate result for governments is less taxation income from corporations, yet it still costs the same to run public programs such as education and health care (for countries with public health care). So then governments need to look elsewhere to replace that income -- either by putting it on the shoulders of the general population in the way of taxes and/or hidden fees, or by cutting funding to public programs.
Consider that next time you wonder why the public education system in many places in the US is so bad, or why public health care in Canada has been gutted beyond repair. I guess if we just dump all public programs, we could compete with the tax incentives provided by third-world countries too. Forgive me if I don't consider that to be progress...
If it's up to people to take responsibility for making things better, then it's also up to corporate citizens to share in that responsibility. Unfortunately, there's no incentives for them to do so. Keep prices competitive or die right?
You make some good points.
But then that brings me to my other point of view....
I believe governments have become too pussy to multinational corporations which is what's making this happen. If they stood up to the companies as entire countries or imposed harder laws to keep them from just packing up and going where ever is cheap then things would be a bit more level.
But now it's company A gets a new tax on their factory, obviously the company is rich enough to pay for it but instead they move the factory leaving people without jobs.
The government goes "come back!" and the corporations say "it's gonna cost you" and now the corporations can do business the same way they did before only this time they're saving/making way more money.
Which is the inherent problem in the system and the system I outlined before.
But unfortunately as long as people within the government are corrupt and are friends with these corporations(or are members themselves) this whole time and themselves make money off this(more than being in the government) they'll let their people get kicked in the balls a million times.
But the problems with the government is another post for another day.
But now it's company A gets a new tax on their factory, obviously the company is rich enough to pay for it but instead they move the factory leaving people without jobs.
The government goes "come back!" and the corporations say "it's gonna cost you" and now the corporations can do business the same way they did before only this time they're saving/making way more money.
The real world is far less dramatic than that. A more likely scenario is something like: we're a growing company that needs to ramp up our manufacturing. We're looking for a place to build our massive new production plant which will employ 1500 workers and bring $50,000,000 into the local economy. Let's shop the idea around to various governments and see who can offer us the best deal.
You can try to be tough as a government, but it'll just end up hurting your economy. Sure the companies with existing factories in your country may be forced to stay, but it'll cause every other company to pass your country up when deciding where they want to expand. And if a company really wanted to pull out badly enough, they could split their company up into regional divisions, and then shut down the regional division for your particular country. There are ways around anything.
The heart of the matter is trying to enforce global standards for corporate taxation rates and benefits, and that's nearly impossible. So what governments tend to do is focus on a couple of key industries and offer companies in those industries incentives to stay/take their business to that country.
The other option is to come up with some sort of incentive system for being a good corporate citizen and paying your fair share of taxes. For example, paying higher taxes which go directly to education would ensure that your company could hire coop students from local universities. Making companies see the benefit of paying taxes rather than blindly seeing taxes as something which they need to pay a team of accountants to avoid.
Well without it Ireland would have been at a totally other level.
You mean the general population of Ireland could have been living in over priced, over crowded accommodation, earning basic wage with little left to have some quality of living? Where one fifth of the population are unemployed? That level? ....hold on?
You mean the general population of Ireland could have been living in over priced, over crowded accommodation, earning basic wage with little left to have some quality of living? Where one fifth of the population are unemployed? That level? ....hold on?
EU gave you the second largest GDP per capita. Redistribution is your own problem.
Comments
Originally posted by drakethegreat
I have heard about the R&D center in the past but something about it rubs me the wrong way.
Apple has been doing R&D in Ireland, where I live, for a long time. Granted, Ireland is not a low cost country (in fact, the standard of living in Ireland is higher than the USA), so I guess that doesn't count. But still, I thought I'd point that out for you.
Instead of whinging, you should concentrate on making the USA a better place to do business in.
And yeah, we should all be afraid of Asia. But instead of whining and things "rubbing us the wrong way", let's work on making our own country more competitive, improving our education system (whether you live in the USA or Ireland, or any other counter for that matter). It's far more productive.
Talkers complain and talk, but doers actually get their asses in gear and work on making things better.
[i] Granted, Ireland is not a low cost country (in fact, the standard of living in Ireland is higher than the USA), so I guess that doesn't count. But still, I thought I'd point that out for you. [/B]
Robin Hood, can you be more specific about what you mean about the standard of living being higher in Ireland than the USA? Do you mean the COST of living? Just curious. I'm fascinated by the changes in Ireland over the last 7-8 years, but I don't know what's driving the change. What are the new industries there?
I recommend reading http://www.economist.com/theWorldIn/...3372495&d=2005
Now I am not saying things here are perfect, they are not. There is, unfortunately, no such place on earth. But I am working on making things better, not just talking.
You should bear in mind that the USA is probably being dragged down because it has a lot of poorer states. For example, while the standard of living in many parts of Massachusetts are extremely high, the same might not be said for other parts of the country. As such, I am only comparing Ireland to the USA as a whole. Kind of makes things complex, doesn't it?
As far as the cost of living, it's higher than some areas of the USA, but lower than others. For example, renting an apartment in Dublin, Ireland is probably going to be more expensive than most places in Texas, but cheaper than perhaps New York or Boston.
Originally posted by Robin Hood
Now, more Irish people are returning than leaving the country.
What new industry is there that's providing all these jobs?
I must say, I travel to Ireland frequently, at least once a year. I hear all the rhetoric about how much better things are now. But when I travel in the countryside I don't see much difference. More expensive houses - but I don't know how people in small towns are paying for them.
In Dublin I see housing costs that rival the most expensive cities of the USA. But I don't know how they pay for it. I worked for Guinness in Dublin in 1998-1999 and the young people I worked with were paid very little, and they all lived with their parents. Granted, that was before housing costs really skyrocketed. But if I lived with my parents when I was 24 I would consider myself a failure. Sure that's different in Ireland, where it has been the culture for a long time. But I would think young people would want to do away with that part of their history.
Without doing extensive research, my take has always been that a very small percentage of the population had gotten wealthy, and the rest don't realize it hasn't trickled down to them. They hear Celtic Tiger enough and start to believe it. But I'm not sure the Irish are much better off. It looks to me like they're just paying more for everything.
As far as the other things that make up standard of living...
Irish healthcare? I think it's much more advanced in the USA - but it's not accessible to the poor, so what good is it?
Education? I'll give that one to the Irish.
I still don't know where all the money is coming from that the Irish say they have now. I think the country has taken some steps backwards in terms of hospitality with tourists - but they've put up with a lot of boorish Americans along the way, so at some point enough is enough.
So what are the growth industries over there? Why are so many people suddenly driving BMWs and going on weekend golf excusrions for 500 euro a night? Where is the money coming from?!
Personally, I believe that because Ireland is English speaking, coupled with low corporate income tax (a 12.5% flat rate), that has made Ireland an attractive base for multi nationals wanting to do business in Europe. Manufacturing is also currently growing at 5%.
You are certainly correct about income being unequally distributed, but the problem has not yet reached the levels seen in the USA. That being said, it is a problem that needs to be tackled.
Originally posted by ecking
If this bothers you and others you Americans should rally your government to give your companies the same tax breaks and other bonuses other countires are willing to give American companies.
That is why they're leaving your country makes it too expensive for them to do competitive business within your own nation.
I actually have a big problem with this philosophy. It's gotten to the point where multinational corporations can pretty much play governments against each other to see who can give the most tax cuts/benefits to them.
The unfortunate result for governments is less taxation income from corporations, yet it still costs the same to run public programs such as education and health care (for countries with public health care). So then governments need to look elsewhere to replace that income -- either by putting it on the shoulders of the general population in the way of taxes and/or hidden fees, or by cutting funding to public programs.
Consider that next time you wonder why the public education system in many places in the US is so bad, or why public health care in Canada has been gutted beyond repair. I guess if we just dump all public programs, we could compete with the tax incentives provided by third-world countries too. Forgive me if I don't consider that to be progress...
If it's up to people to take responsibility for making things better, then it's also up to corporate citizens to share in that responsibility. Unfortunately, there's no incentives for them to do so. Keep prices competitive or die right?
For the reasons stated by walshbj, housing costs/living costs etc., I have seen countless friends and neighbours searching out better wages and comparatively less expensive places to live and that usually means emigrating to the "big three", USA, England or Australia.
The construction/building industry has been booming in recent years though it does show signs of slowing as land is getting harder to find and much too expensive to develop for purely housing needs.
For those who haven't gone on to third level education there are few career choices and any jobs available to them are poorly paid compared to the cost of living in the "New Ireland".
Those that stay have already carved out their career path in such industries as software development etc. and therefore can somewhat afford the spiralling cost of living.
The "Celtic Tiger" IMHO was just a moniker put around by a government who, while lowering corporate taxation to attract big business, did little to curb the excessive price rises in necessities such as housing and consumables for the ordinary citizen. That 'Tiger' made many already wealthy people even more so and left joe public to wonder exactly where the money went when he added up the bills at the end of the month.
The promised benefits of moving from the 'Punt" to the 'Euro' never materialised. If anything it made things much more expensive than before. You only have to drive an hour up the motorway, cross the border and watch the many hundreds of 'free-staters' load up on food, electricals and alcohol as if there were no tomorrow (although things are pretty bad "up there" also). Things are not as rosy as some might have you believe.
Indeed, it is a problem that needs to be tackled, though it is harder to cure a sore when it has been left to fester for so long.
In response to walshbj's question... people are suddenly driving BMWs and going on weekend golf excusrions for 500 Euro a night because the government has told them they can live the dream, only thing is they have to re-mortgage to do so.
OK. Rant over... now, BUY *insert your country here*!
Originally posted by MiMac
Well without it Ireland would have been at a totally other level.
Originally posted by auxio
I actually have a big problem with this philosophy. It's gotten to the point where multinational corporations can pretty much play governments against each other to see who can give the most tax cuts/benefits to them.
The unfortunate result for governments is less taxation income from corporations, yet it still costs the same to run public programs such as education and health care (for countries with public health care). So then governments need to look elsewhere to replace that income -- either by putting it on the shoulders of the general population in the way of taxes and/or hidden fees, or by cutting funding to public programs.
Consider that next time you wonder why the public education system in many places in the US is so bad, or why public health care in Canada has been gutted beyond repair. I guess if we just dump all public programs, we could compete with the tax incentives provided by third-world countries too. Forgive me if I don't consider that to be progress...
If it's up to people to take responsibility for making things better, then it's also up to corporate citizens to share in that responsibility. Unfortunately, there's no incentives for them to do so. Keep prices competitive or die right?
You make some good points.
But then that brings me to my other point of view....
I believe governments have become too pussy to multinational corporations which is what's making this happen. If they stood up to the companies as entire countries or imposed harder laws to keep them from just packing up and going where ever is cheap then things would be a bit more level.
But now it's company A gets a new tax on their factory, obviously the company is rich enough to pay for it but instead they move the factory leaving people without jobs.
The government goes "come back!" and the corporations say "it's gonna cost you" and now the corporations can do business the same way they did before only this time they're saving/making way more money.
Which is the inherent problem in the system and the system I outlined before.
But unfortunately as long as people within the government are corrupt and are friends with these corporations(or are members themselves) this whole time and themselves make money off this(more than being in the government) they'll let their people get kicked in the balls a million times.
But the problems with the government is another post for another day.
Originally posted by ecking
But now it's company A gets a new tax on their factory, obviously the company is rich enough to pay for it but instead they move the factory leaving people without jobs.
The government goes "come back!" and the corporations say "it's gonna cost you" and now the corporations can do business the same way they did before only this time they're saving/making way more money.
The real world is far less dramatic than that. A more likely scenario is something like: we're a growing company that needs to ramp up our manufacturing. We're looking for a place to build our massive new production plant which will employ 1500 workers and bring $50,000,000 into the local economy. Let's shop the idea around to various governments and see who can offer us the best deal.
You can try to be tough as a government, but it'll just end up hurting your economy. Sure the companies with existing factories in your country may be forced to stay, but it'll cause every other company to pass your country up when deciding where they want to expand. And if a company really wanted to pull out badly enough, they could split their company up into regional divisions, and then shut down the regional division for your particular country. There are ways around anything.
The heart of the matter is trying to enforce global standards for corporate taxation rates and benefits, and that's nearly impossible. So what governments tend to do is focus on a couple of key industries and offer companies in those industries incentives to stay/take their business to that country.
The other option is to come up with some sort of incentive system for being a good corporate citizen and paying your fair share of taxes. For example, paying higher taxes which go directly to education would ensure that your company could hire coop students from local universities. Making companies see the benefit of paying taxes rather than blindly seeing taxes as something which they need to pay a team of accountants to avoid.
Originally posted by Anders
Well without it Ireland would have been at a totally other level.
You mean the general population of Ireland could have been living in over priced, over crowded accommodation, earning basic wage with little left to have some quality of living? Where one fifth of the population are unemployed? That level? ....hold on?
Originally posted by MiMac
You mean the general population of Ireland could have been living in over priced, over crowded accommodation, earning basic wage with little left to have some quality of living? Where one fifth of the population are unemployed? That level? ....hold on?
EU gave you the second largest GDP per capita. Redistribution is your own problem.