Ok in all seriousness here... Why are so many people arguing about specs between Dell and Apple. We all know that there is no reason to buy a Dell after Bootcamp. First of all I don't even need Windows anyway hehe. Lucky me. I think the new MacBooks are great!
Sure I wish we got a better graphics chipset, which would have been the best tasting icing ever on the already glorious cake. However, working at Staples in computer sales has shown me that the MacBook is very competitively priced. Dollar for dollar it is several hundred cheaper than anything that comes close in terms of what we sell. In terms of warranty it's 170 for two years and begins after the one year MFR warranty. Apples 3 year is only 218 in comparison and is so much better.
The only gripe I was going to have with the MacBook was for gaming which honestly the more I think about it, I don't care. Having a dedicated card would have been like having a Hemi in VW Golf. Hell I might even splurge on the black one. It looks phenomenal.
Hopefully, I will be able to get a deal or something on one in late August, right before going to Europe for a couple of weeks. Should be glorious.
Bottom line:
To all of you whiners out there, you sound like Mariah Carey caught in a bear trap. To the rest of you, good earplugs are in order, or in some cases an over-abundance of wax will do the trick.
If you want a Dell, go get one. Just don't complain, it makes you look inadequate, in (ahem) all areas.
This Apple hardware versus PC hardware thing is also largely futile. Apple makes machines that have no PC equivalent on purpose. It's part of the reason they are different and unique. Thet are not trying to match Dell, HP, Acer, whoever, on features and price, but are trying to create a unique product.
No other OEM makes a laptop with the combination of hardware features that Apple has. They chose a set of features that most other laptops don't have on purpose, and that's their selling point.
The MBP 15 has a 1440x900 screen. Dell doesn't seem to sell a 15.4" laptop with that screen resolution, just 1280x800, 1600x1050 or 1920x1200.
The MBP has an integrated camera. Not many other PC laptops have those.
The MBP has a 1" thick form factor. Virtually no other PC laptop of the same screen size has that.
The MBP has a cool aluminum or plastic style. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has 6-pin Firewire. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has a magnetically attached power connector. No other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has an Express Card slot. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has a slot-loading DVD drive. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has a dual-DVI port to drive 30" displays. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has a lot of these Apple unique hardware features, and Apple is counting on them to support their typically higher prices.
And please don't ridicule parents who are concerned, particularly after 9/11, about their children's safety. I am one of those parents, and I take it very seriously. If you live somewhere where you are not a target, then you are out of any meaningful loop. If you are not concerned about your childs safety after what happened, then you (the general you) are not being responsible. My daughters safety is more important to me then my own.
Given I too live in a target city I'd say that neither you or I value our children's safety more than our own careers, commute and convienence or our families would be more safely located in central penn (but away from three mile island) or in some remote area of upper state NY.
That would be the "responsible" reaction if you were concerned about terrorism affecting your family. Its a long assed drive though.
So please, the existance of camera in a laptop is a meaningless risk in comparison to choosing to continue to live in NYC or DC. Someday some nutball will get a nuke and they aren't going to use it on farmland.
I've studied the damage patterns and evac routes. Above some size or just unlucky winds my family is well and truly screwed. There's no way we can get out without a lethal total dose barring everything going right. I'm certainly banking on that to happen after a nuclear event.
Playing the concerned parent card and saying someone not living in a city with big assed crosshairs painted on them is out of the loop is a bit funny given the big picture.
Given I too live in a target city I'd say that neither you or I value our children's safety more than our own careers, commute and convienence or our families would be more safely located in central penn (but away from three mile island) or in some remote area of upper state NY.
That would be the "responsible" reaction if you were concerned about terrorism affecting your family. Its a long assed drive though.
So please, the existance of camera in a laptop is a meaningless risk in comparison to choosing to continue to live in NYC or DC.
Playing the concerned parent card and saying someone not living in a city with big assed crosshairs painted on them is out of the loop is a bit funny given the big picture.
Vinea
Not really. And don't start another argument with dubious statements, about which you have no right, and no understanding. Stick to your computer arguments.
This one you should leave alone. Particularly in public.. It's over with. No one was talking to you.
Not really. And don't start another argument with dubious statements, about which you have no right, and no understanding. Stick to your computer arguments.
This one you should leave alone. Particularly in public.. It's over with. No one was talking to you.
I edited my message prior to seeing this one and my comment stands.
You have no business calling anyone irresponsible or out of the loop regarding any stance on 9/11 or safety if you continue to live in a city you KNOW is likely to get hit again.
As far as no understanding my decision to stay is well informed and I have been briefed multiple times about the potential risks. They are low but not zero and some have fairly catastrophic outcomes that are easily avoided but require sacrifice in terms of convience that my family knowingly chooses not to make.
Its not exactly rocket science either that you actually need someone to tell you that living in either NY or DC is higher risk than most other cities in the US for this kind of thing.
It is also telling that one of the most prolific briefers on this topic has stashed his family in PA and commutes to his office here when he isn't on travel around the country to speak about this issue. He is smart as heck and about as well informed about this subject as you can get. He's also a good speaker and humorous.
I had friends in the Pentagon that day. I have friends that still work there every day. You don't want public arguments about 9/11 don't pull the I live in NY so you don't understand what it means BS in a public forum.
I edited my message prior to seeing this one and my comment stands.
You have no business calling anyone irresponsible or out of the loop regarding any stance on 9/11 or safety if you continue to live in a city you KNOW is likely to get hit again.
As far as no understanding my decision to stay is well informed and I have been briefed multiple times about the potential risks. They are low but not zero and some have fairly catastrophic outcomes that are easily avoided but require sacrifice in terms of convience that my family knowingly chooses not to make.
Its not exactly rocket science either that you actually need someone to tell you that living in either NY or DC is higher risk than most other cities in the US for this kind of thing.
It is also telling that one of the most prolific briefers on this topic has stashed his family in PA and commutes to his office here when he isn't on travel around the country to speak about this issue.
I had friends in the Pentagon that day. I have friends that still work there every day. You don't want public arguments about 9/11 don't pull the I live in NY so you don't understand what it means BS in a public forum.
Vinea
You just can't leave things alone. can you?
You are not qualified to say anything on this matter, other that what you might say of your own situation. It doesn't matter to your situation that you had friends in the Pentagon, except to feel sad over what happened there. I had friends in the Towers as well. Neither was a good situation. I feel sympathy for all involved. But you don't live there.
But, since you know nothing about why people still live here in New York, rather than all 8 million abandoning it, don't think that your opinion is of any value. You are just attempting to be smug, and questioning the sincerity of those who chose not to leave, or couldn't, for whatever reason.
There is no sane reason for you to keep pursuing this senseless argument of yours. If you feel you must, contact me personally.
The computer literate and technical savvy are the market Apple wants to grow, not really so much the people who would be satisfied with a $300 POS from Walmart.
In that case they would have to completely change their phylosophy.
You are not qualified to say anything on this matter, other that what you might say of your own situation.
But you are qualified to state that if you don't live in a target city you are out of the meaningful loop? Please. if you don't want to discuss something the simplest solution is to not discuss it in the first place. Not get all huffy when someone disagrees with you after you're the one that brings it up.
And who the heck are you to judge what I am or am not qualified to say anything about? You have no clue what I might or might not know.
I certainly don't claim that you aren't qualified but I will comment on your decisions though if you bring up the topic is such as asinine way.
Quote:
It doesn't matter to your situation that you had friends in the Pentagon, except to feel sad over what happened there. I had friends in the Towers as well. Neither was a good situation. I feel sympathy for all involved. But you don't live there.
I don't live where? It is true I don't live IN the Pentagon. It is not true I do not live near a high profile target with a three letter name in the DC area.
Even if I didn't it DOESN'T MATTER where you live to voice an opinion.
Has it occured to you that its getting on other people's nerves when residents of either DC or NY claim some special status because of 9/11? We got hit, it should have been no bloody surprise given where we live. We will likely get hit again.
Quote:
But, since you know nothing about why people still live here in New York, rather than all 8 million abandoning it, don't think that your opinion is of any value. You are just attempting to be smug, and questioning the sincerity of those who chose not to leave, or couldn't, for whatever reason.
No, I'm saying that you have nothing to be condescending about to anyone regarding 9/11 and safety. There are many good reasons to live in NYC but reducing the risk of terrorism impacting the safety of your family isn't one of them.
Quote:
There is no sane reason for you to keep pursuing this senseless argument of yours. If you feel you must, contact me personally.
Nope. I'm done with this topic unless you decide it is necessary to be discuss it again.
What happened to the discussion about the MacBooks?
About the iSight: I said this once before a long time ago on a very different thread, but I just don't see corporate spies holding MacBooks up to take photos of trade secrets (it would be pretty awkard and obvious), or positioned to catch a secret meeting. Cell phones are much better for this, and if they take away your cell phone, great cams probably already exist in pens, buttons, you know, the usual places.
It's difficult to argue/reason with people when they are misinterpreting and/or misunderstanding almost everything you are saying.
Just maybe you're wrong.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
Yes, I want them to be High-end and Mid-range, because I think it makes business sense and would benefit the platform.
Apple ARE Mid-range. Just what is the MacBook or Mini or even iMac if not Mid-Range?
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
In the days of the original iMac, Steve Jobs said that he didn't believe in market research, and that Apple doesn't do any. Since he's never said anything about it since, I must assume that that is still the case. They just make whatever Steve thinks people want. I think that Apple are making a mistake, and are addressing only about 20% of the market when they could quite easily address 70% of it instead.
I'm not sure Steve even uses 'what people want' criteria. At one point he was quoted saying something like you should never give people what they want because by the time you ship it they want something else. They've obviously got no way of addressing 70% of the market since that would imply 70% of the market want something other than Windows. You're on cloud cuckoo land if you thing they can do 70%.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
You misunderstood. I meant there's only point trying to create and then dominate new markets, if you already own a massive chunk of the already existent market.
Obviously that is complete baloney. See iPod, See Vodafone, See Psion, See MacDonalds. Entrepreneurs create markets from scratch all the time.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
In my opinion, Dell already own as much of the traditional PC market as they can. The only way for them to increase unit shipment is to diversify into other markets. On the other hand, I believe that Apple has massive potential for capturing the mid-range of the PC market. However, that can only possibly happen if Apple offer mid-range machines.
It'll only happen if they offer machines with Windows on. Most of the mid range is sold into business and they mostly only want Windows.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
You have to account for the fact that Amazon offer great deals on Macs, they are the cheapest place to get them (cheaper than direct from Apple), and savvy Apple users know this. This skews the list. We all know that Apple's laptops do not really outsell PC laptops.
Not really. There's a gazillion different laptop brands so the likelihood of an Apple outselling a Sony or a Tosh is quite high. Sure, outselling all the other brands put together is unlikely.
Even when you have evidence to the contrary where the MacBook preorders are outselling the models you believe are crucial to addressing the mid-range market?
I never, ever said that the Amazon list was evidence of PC laptops outselling Mac laptops.
I was using the Amazon list as an indication of what PC (i.e. non-mac) users buy, and therefore what the market as a whole, buy. Perhaps the PC side of the list is skewed just as the Mac side is, I don't know.
Apple has had a prominent position in Amazon's best-seller list for at least two years now. This prominence is obviously not a reflection of the market as a whole. We know that. Apple's share of the laptop market is about 6% in the US. Obviously, there are no Dells in that list, as you can only buy direct from them. Also, there aren't many HPs, presumably because they are mostly bought direct from them or in bricks-and-mortar stores.
What I have done is assume that if lots of people are buying 15.4" and 14.1" widescreen Celeron-M laptops at Amazon, that is going on in the market as a whole.
I'll point you at the Mac Mini, the iMac, AirPort and the iPod.
Another misinterpretaion. I meant that Apple do not appear to currently be trying to forge new markets. The iPod was launched several years ago, and the portable mp3 market already existed when Apple launched the iPod.
Airport was also launched many years ago.
I would not describe the Mac Mini or the iMac as forging new markets. They are used as conventional PCs. Some Mac Minis are used as HTPCs, but that market already existed before the Mac Mini was launched.
90% of the features? If you feel that running the operating system is a 10% feature then that a fine assessment.
Apple spends half a billion dollars on OSX, iLife, h/w design (style wise anyway), and new innovative markets.
Dell spends half a billion dollars on efficiency. No shit they sell Intel boxes cheaper en masse than anyone else. They work damn hard to do so. I have two machines at work and at home. One a Dell and one an Apple.
If all you want to do is boot Windows/Linux or Solaris Dell is the way to go, hands down, no doubt about it. If you want to boot a machine where the manufacturer also makes the OS you'll never be able to price match Dell because they wont be able to put the same emphasis on efficiency.
Not competitive on the high end when you cherry pick which models to compare. We can both cherry pick.
17" MPB, 2GB RAM, 100GB 7200 RPM SATA, Modem, Apple Care, iLife $3497
17" Inspiron 9400, 2 GB RAM, 100GB 7200 RPM SATA, GeForceGo 7800 256MB, Wireless, 100GB 7200 RPM SATA, 8x burner, Corel Album 6, Sonic DigitalMedia and myDVD Plus, SB Audigy, 3 yr limited w/onsite service, BT card. $3607.
$3278 w/ normal 3yr warranty. Knock them both back to 1 yr warranty and you end up with $3148 MPB vs $3208 Inspiron.
The difference is pretty small and you can nitpick which of the 3 yr warranty options are equivalent. That's ignoring iSight, OSX, remote, etc. and that the entertainment suite on the Dell side probably isn't as good as iLife.
The 15" Dell wins hands down. The 17" MPB is competitive. The MacBooks are competitive.
Vinea
I'm glad thet the 17 in compares nicely to the Dell. I illustrate the comparison on the 15 in to suggest that Apple can and should lower the price of that model. I've no intention of running out and buying a Dell laptop.
Which is why you gleefully pointed out that the Toshiba was the #1 laptop seller...
Vinea
You are demonstrating an awesome lack of basic reading, comprehension and logical reasoning skills. Please, go back and re-read my posts.
You are suggesting that Amazon's best-seller list implies that Apple's laptops outsell PC laptops. We all know that that isn't actually the case in the market as a whole. Amazon's list is skewed heavily towards Apple because of the great deals they have on them, and, in the case of the MacBook, the considerable pent-up demand in the Mac community for this model.
In the days of the original iMac, Steve Jobs said that he didn't believe in market research, and that Apple doesn't do any. Since he's never said anything about it since, I must assume that that is still the case.
You have to account for the fact that Amazon offer great deals on Macs, they are the cheapest place to get them (cheaper than direct from Apple), and savvy Apple users know this. This skews the list. We all know that Apple's laptops do not really outsell PC laptops.
On the other hand, I believe that Apple has massive potential for capturing the mid-range of the PC market.
I have assumed that if you take the Apple laptops out of the list, what's left is a good indication of demand for PC laptops. Perhaps I am wrong. But I also look at the machines that the top five PC manufacturers offer in their line-ups to gauge demand.
Jobs is known for being secretive, even misleading or flat out lying about what apple does internally or has planned for the future. I wouldn't make any assumptions about market research based on one statement made years ago.
If the list is skewed, why use it as an example of anything? Not to mention that there are far more laptops in higher price ranges on the list than lower ones.
And I'd definitely consider $1099 to be a mid-range price, apple is certainly addressing that segment of the market. I'd consider anything under a grand to be low end. But really, that's just semantics.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
[B]Give me a break! A Celeron-M and 40 GB HD would take them well below $999.
A celeron M would require a different mobo, so it's not practical for Apple.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
I was using the Amazon list as an indication of what PC (i.e. non-mac) users buy, and therefore what the market as a whole, buy. Perhaps the PC side of the list is skewed just as the Mac side is, I don't know.]
I think it's useless to use a list that you admit is skewed. If we know the mac sales aren't a good indication, it makes zero sense to assume that the PC numbers are.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
[B]Another misinterpretaion. I meant that Apple do not appear to currently be trying to forge new markets. The iPod was launched several years ago, and the portable mp3 market already existed when Apple launched the iPod.
You forgot the video ipod, and video sales at the itunes store, those are all in the last year and very much current.
Comments
Sure I wish we got a better graphics chipset, which would have been the best tasting icing ever on the already glorious cake. However, working at Staples in computer sales has shown me that the MacBook is very competitively priced. Dollar for dollar it is several hundred cheaper than anything that comes close in terms of what we sell. In terms of warranty it's 170 for two years and begins after the one year MFR warranty. Apples 3 year is only 218 in comparison and is so much better.
The only gripe I was going to have with the MacBook was for gaming which honestly the more I think about it, I don't care. Having a dedicated card would have been like having a Hemi in VW Golf. Hell I might even splurge on the black one. It looks phenomenal.
Hopefully, I will be able to get a deal or something on one in late August, right before going to Europe for a couple of weeks. Should be glorious.
Bottom line:
To all of you whiners out there, you sound like Mariah Carey caught in a bear trap. To the rest of you, good earplugs are in order, or in some cases an over-abundance of wax will do the trick.
If you want a Dell, go get one. Just don't complain, it makes you look inadequate, in (ahem) all areas.
No other OEM makes a laptop with the combination of hardware features that Apple has. They chose a set of features that most other laptops don't have on purpose, and that's their selling point.
The MBP 15 has a 1440x900 screen. Dell doesn't seem to sell a 15.4" laptop with that screen resolution, just 1280x800, 1600x1050 or 1920x1200.
The MBP has an integrated camera. Not many other PC laptops have those.
The MBP has a 1" thick form factor. Virtually no other PC laptop of the same screen size has that.
The MBP has a cool aluminum or plastic style. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has 6-pin Firewire. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has a magnetically attached power connector. No other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has an Express Card slot. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has a slot-loading DVD drive. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has a dual-DVI port to drive 30" displays. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.
The MBP has a lot of these Apple unique hardware features, and Apple is counting on them to support their typically higher prices.
Originally posted by melgross
And please don't ridicule parents who are concerned, particularly after 9/11, about their children's safety. I am one of those parents, and I take it very seriously. If you live somewhere where you are not a target, then you are out of any meaningful loop. If you are not concerned about your childs safety after what happened, then you (the general you) are not being responsible. My daughters safety is more important to me then my own.
Given I too live in a target city I'd say that neither you or I value our children's safety more than our own careers, commute and convienence or our families would be more safely located in central penn (but away from three mile island) or in some remote area of upper state NY.
That would be the "responsible" reaction if you were concerned about terrorism affecting your family. Its a long assed drive though.
So please, the existance of camera in a laptop is a meaningless risk in comparison to choosing to continue to live in NYC or DC. Someday some nutball will get a nuke and they aren't going to use it on farmland.
I've studied the damage patterns and evac routes. Above some size or just unlucky winds my family is well and truly screwed. There's no way we can get out without a lethal total dose barring everything going right. I'm certainly banking on that to happen after a nuclear event.
Playing the concerned parent card and saying someone not living in a city with big assed crosshairs painted on them is out of the loop is a bit funny given the big picture.
Vinea
Originally posted by vinea
Given I too live in a target city I'd say that neither you or I value our children's safety more than our own careers, commute and convienence or our families would be more safely located in central penn (but away from three mile island) or in some remote area of upper state NY.
That would be the "responsible" reaction if you were concerned about terrorism affecting your family. Its a long assed drive though.
So please, the existance of camera in a laptop is a meaningless risk in comparison to choosing to continue to live in NYC or DC.
Playing the concerned parent card and saying someone not living in a city with big assed crosshairs painted on them is out of the loop is a bit funny given the big picture.
Vinea
Not really. And don't start another argument with dubious statements, about which you have no right, and no understanding. Stick to your computer arguments.
This one you should leave alone. Particularly in public.. It's over with. No one was talking to you.
Originally posted by melgross
Not really. And don't start another argument with dubious statements, about which you have no right, and no understanding. Stick to your computer arguments.
This one you should leave alone. Particularly in public.. It's over with. No one was talking to you.
I edited my message prior to seeing this one and my comment stands.
You have no business calling anyone irresponsible or out of the loop regarding any stance on 9/11 or safety if you continue to live in a city you KNOW is likely to get hit again.
As far as no understanding my decision to stay is well informed and I have been briefed multiple times about the potential risks. They are low but not zero and some have fairly catastrophic outcomes that are easily avoided but require sacrifice in terms of convience that my family knowingly chooses not to make.
Its not exactly rocket science either that you actually need someone to tell you that living in either NY or DC is higher risk than most other cities in the US for this kind of thing.
It is also telling that one of the most prolific briefers on this topic has stashed his family in PA and commutes to his office here when he isn't on travel around the country to speak about this issue. He is smart as heck and about as well informed about this subject as you can get. He's also a good speaker and humorous.
I had friends in the Pentagon that day. I have friends that still work there every day. You don't want public arguments about 9/11 don't pull the I live in NY so you don't understand what it means BS in a public forum.
Vinea
Originally posted by vinea
I edited my message prior to seeing this one and my comment stands.
You have no business calling anyone irresponsible or out of the loop regarding any stance on 9/11 or safety if you continue to live in a city you KNOW is likely to get hit again.
As far as no understanding my decision to stay is well informed and I have been briefed multiple times about the potential risks. They are low but not zero and some have fairly catastrophic outcomes that are easily avoided but require sacrifice in terms of convience that my family knowingly chooses not to make.
Its not exactly rocket science either that you actually need someone to tell you that living in either NY or DC is higher risk than most other cities in the US for this kind of thing.
It is also telling that one of the most prolific briefers on this topic has stashed his family in PA and commutes to his office here when he isn't on travel around the country to speak about this issue.
I had friends in the Pentagon that day. I have friends that still work there every day. You don't want public arguments about 9/11 don't pull the I live in NY so you don't understand what it means BS in a public forum.
Vinea
You just can't leave things alone. can you?
You are not qualified to say anything on this matter, other that what you might say of your own situation. It doesn't matter to your situation that you had friends in the Pentagon, except to feel sad over what happened there. I had friends in the Towers as well. Neither was a good situation. I feel sympathy for all involved. But you don't live there.
But, since you know nothing about why people still live here in New York, rather than all 8 million abandoning it, don't think that your opinion is of any value. You are just attempting to be smug, and questioning the sincerity of those who chose not to leave, or couldn't, for whatever reason.
There is no sane reason for you to keep pursuing this senseless argument of yours. If you feel you must, contact me personally.
The computer literate and technical savvy are the market Apple wants to grow, not really so much the people who would be satisfied with a $300 POS from Walmart.
In that case they would have to completely change their phylosophy.
Originally posted by melgross
[You just can't leave things alone. can you?
You are not qualified to say anything on this matter, other that what you might say of your own situation.
But you are qualified to state that if you don't live in a target city you are out of the meaningful loop? Please. if you don't want to discuss something the simplest solution is to not discuss it in the first place. Not get all huffy when someone disagrees with you after you're the one that brings it up.
And who the heck are you to judge what I am or am not qualified to say anything about? You have no clue what I might or might not know.
I certainly don't claim that you aren't qualified but I will comment on your decisions though if you bring up the topic is such as asinine way.
It doesn't matter to your situation that you had friends in the Pentagon, except to feel sad over what happened there. I had friends in the Towers as well. Neither was a good situation. I feel sympathy for all involved. But you don't live there.
I don't live where? It is true I don't live IN the Pentagon. It is not true I do not live near a high profile target with a three letter name in the DC area.
Even if I didn't it DOESN'T MATTER where you live to voice an opinion.
Has it occured to you that its getting on other people's nerves when residents of either DC or NY claim some special status because of 9/11? We got hit, it should have been no bloody surprise given where we live. We will likely get hit again.
But, since you know nothing about why people still live here in New York, rather than all 8 million abandoning it, don't think that your opinion is of any value. You are just attempting to be smug, and questioning the sincerity of those who chose not to leave, or couldn't, for whatever reason.
No, I'm saying that you have nothing to be condescending about to anyone regarding 9/11 and safety. There are many good reasons to live in NYC but reducing the risk of terrorism impacting the safety of your family isn't one of them.
There is no sane reason for you to keep pursuing this senseless argument of yours. If you feel you must, contact me personally.
Nope. I'm done with this topic unless you decide it is necessary to be discuss it again.
Vinea
About the iSight: I said this once before a long time ago on a very different thread, but I just don't see corporate spies holding MacBooks up to take photos of trade secrets (it would be pretty awkard and obvious), or positioned to catch a secret meeting. Cell phones are much better for this, and if they take away your cell phone, great cams probably already exist in pens, buttons, you know, the usual places.
Originally posted by Mr. H
It's difficult to argue/reason with people when they are misinterpreting and/or misunderstanding almost everything you are saying.
Just maybe you're wrong.
Originally posted by Mr. H
Yes, I want them to be High-end and Mid-range, because I think it makes business sense and would benefit the platform.
Apple ARE Mid-range. Just what is the MacBook or Mini or even iMac if not Mid-Range?
Originally posted by Mr. H
In the days of the original iMac, Steve Jobs said that he didn't believe in market research, and that Apple doesn't do any. Since he's never said anything about it since, I must assume that that is still the case. They just make whatever Steve thinks people want. I think that Apple are making a mistake, and are addressing only about 20% of the market when they could quite easily address 70% of it instead.
I'm not sure Steve even uses 'what people want' criteria. At one point he was quoted saying something like you should never give people what they want because by the time you ship it they want something else. They've obviously got no way of addressing 70% of the market since that would imply 70% of the market want something other than Windows. You're on cloud cuckoo land if you thing they can do 70%.
Originally posted by Mr. H
You misunderstood. I meant there's only point trying to create and then dominate new markets, if you already own a massive chunk of the already existent market.
Obviously that is complete baloney. See iPod, See Vodafone, See Psion, See MacDonalds. Entrepreneurs create markets from scratch all the time.
Originally posted by Mr. H
In my opinion, Dell already own as much of the traditional PC market as they can. The only way for them to increase unit shipment is to diversify into other markets. On the other hand, I believe that Apple has massive potential for capturing the mid-range of the PC market. However, that can only possibly happen if Apple offer mid-range machines.
It'll only happen if they offer machines with Windows on. Most of the mid range is sold into business and they mostly only want Windows.
Originally posted by Mr. H
You have to account for the fact that Amazon offer great deals on Macs, they are the cheapest place to get them (cheaper than direct from Apple), and savvy Apple users know this. This skews the list. We all know that Apple's laptops do not really outsell PC laptops.
Not really. There's a gazillion different laptop brands so the likelihood of an Apple outselling a Sony or a Tosh is quite high. Sure, outselling all the other brands put together is unlikely.
Originally posted by Mr. H
Additionally, it is worth pointing out that there is no evidence at all that Apple is attempting to forge new markets.
That's funny!
I'll point you at the Mac Mini, the iMac, AirPort and the iPod.
Originally posted by vinea
Even when you have evidence to the contrary where the MacBook preorders are outselling the models you believe are crucial to addressing the mid-range market?
Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
It's like banging my head against a brick wall.
I never, ever said that the Amazon list was evidence of PC laptops outselling Mac laptops.
I was using the Amazon list as an indication of what PC (i.e. non-mac) users buy, and therefore what the market as a whole, buy. Perhaps the PC side of the list is skewed just as the Mac side is, I don't know.
Apple has had a prominent position in Amazon's best-seller list for at least two years now. This prominence is obviously not a reflection of the market as a whole. We know that. Apple's share of the laptop market is about 6% in the US. Obviously, there are no Dells in that list, as you can only buy direct from them. Also, there aren't many HPs, presumably because they are mostly bought direct from them or in bricks-and-mortar stores.
What I have done is assume that if lots of people are buying 15.4" and 14.1" widescreen Celeron-M laptops at Amazon, that is going on in the market as a whole.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
That's funny!
I'll point you at the Mac Mini, the iMac, AirPort and the iPod.
Another misinterpretaion. I meant that Apple do not appear to currently be trying to forge new markets. The iPod was launched several years ago, and the portable mp3 market already existed when Apple launched the iPod.
Airport was also launched many years ago.
I would not describe the Mac Mini or the iMac as forging new markets. They are used as conventional PCs. Some Mac Minis are used as HTPCs, but that market already existed before the Mac Mini was launched.
Originally posted by vinea
90% of the features? If you feel that running the operating system is a 10% feature then that a fine assessment.
Apple spends half a billion dollars on OSX, iLife, h/w design (style wise anyway), and new innovative markets.
Dell spends half a billion dollars on efficiency. No shit they sell Intel boxes cheaper en masse than anyone else. They work damn hard to do so. I have two machines at work and at home. One a Dell and one an Apple.
If all you want to do is boot Windows/Linux or Solaris Dell is the way to go, hands down, no doubt about it. If you want to boot a machine where the manufacturer also makes the OS you'll never be able to price match Dell because they wont be able to put the same emphasis on efficiency.
Not competitive on the high end when you cherry pick which models to compare. We can both cherry pick.
17" MPB, 2GB RAM, 100GB 7200 RPM SATA, Modem, Apple Care, iLife $3497
17" Inspiron 9400, 2 GB RAM, 100GB 7200 RPM SATA, GeForceGo 7800 256MB, Wireless, 100GB 7200 RPM SATA, 8x burner, Corel Album 6, Sonic DigitalMedia and myDVD Plus, SB Audigy, 3 yr limited w/onsite service, BT card. $3607.
$3278 w/ normal 3yr warranty. Knock them both back to 1 yr warranty and you end up with $3148 MPB vs $3208 Inspiron.
The difference is pretty small and you can nitpick which of the 3 yr warranty options are equivalent. That's ignoring iSight, OSX, remote, etc. and that the entertainment suite on the Dell side probably isn't as good as iLife.
The 15" Dell wins hands down. The 17" MPB is competitive. The MacBooks are competitive.
Vinea
I'm glad thet the 17 in compares nicely to the Dell. I illustrate the comparison on the 15 in to suggest that Apple can and should lower the price of that model. I've no intention of running out and buying a Dell laptop.
Originally posted by Mr. H
Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
It's like banging my head against a brick wall.
I never, ever said that the Amazon list was evidence of PC laptops outselling Mac laptops.
Which is why you gleefully pointed out that the Toshiba was the #1 laptop seller...
Vinea
Originally posted by vinea
Which is why you gleefully pointed out that the Toshiba was the #1 laptop seller...
Vinea
You are demonstrating an awesome lack of basic reading, comprehension and logical reasoning skills. Please, go back and re-read my posts.
You are suggesting that Amazon's best-seller list implies that Apple's laptops outsell PC laptops. We all know that that isn't actually the case in the market as a whole. Amazon's list is skewed heavily towards Apple because of the great deals they have on them, and, in the case of the MacBook, the considerable pent-up demand in the Mac community for this model.
Originally posted by scavanger
Apple makes laptops? I thought they were notebooks?
Originally posted by Mr. H
In the days of the original iMac, Steve Jobs said that he didn't believe in market research, and that Apple doesn't do any. Since he's never said anything about it since, I must assume that that is still the case.
You have to account for the fact that Amazon offer great deals on Macs, they are the cheapest place to get them (cheaper than direct from Apple), and savvy Apple users know this. This skews the list. We all know that Apple's laptops do not really outsell PC laptops.
On the other hand, I believe that Apple has massive potential for capturing the mid-range of the PC market.
I have assumed that if you take the Apple laptops out of the list, what's left is a good indication of demand for PC laptops. Perhaps I am wrong. But I also look at the machines that the top five PC manufacturers offer in their line-ups to gauge demand.
Jobs is known for being secretive, even misleading or flat out lying about what apple does internally or has planned for the future. I wouldn't make any assumptions about market research based on one statement made years ago.
If the list is skewed, why use it as an example of anything? Not to mention that there are far more laptops in higher price ranges on the list than lower ones.
And I'd definitely consider $1099 to be a mid-range price, apple is certainly addressing that segment of the market. I'd consider anything under a grand to be low end. But really, that's just semantics.
Originally posted by Mr. H
[B]Give me a break! A Celeron-M and 40 GB HD would take them well below $999.
A celeron M would require a different mobo, so it's not practical for Apple.
Originally posted by Mr. H
I was using the Amazon list as an indication of what PC (i.e. non-mac) users buy, and therefore what the market as a whole, buy. Perhaps the PC side of the list is skewed just as the Mac side is, I don't know.]
I think it's useless to use a list that you admit is skewed. If we know the mac sales aren't a good indication, it makes zero sense to assume that the PC numbers are.
Originally posted by Mr. H
[B]Another misinterpretaion. I meant that Apple do not appear to currently be trying to forge new markets. The iPod was launched several years ago, and the portable mp3 market already existed when Apple launched the iPod.
You forgot the video ipod, and video sales at the itunes store, those are all in the last year and very much current.