I think this is debateable. I remember when Win 95 came out and Mac market share began a sharp nose dive.
Win95 wasn't a singular reason for Apple's troubles. Poor leadership was likely more to blame. MS was able to take advantage.
Vista is currently a mess and is set to fragment the MS user base.
Quote:
It will happen again, because people are attracted to familiarity and price.
Its not likely the majority of Windows user will buy a stand alone copy of Vista, most people will use their current computer until it no longer works.
MS is continuing drag old baggage into Vista. Apple is in a better position to provide a cohesive user experience between hardware and software.
Quote:
This has been discussed before, Amazon is not an indicator of what the overall market is doing
True its not. It is a good indicator that people who are savvy enough to buy computers online are buying Mac's. I wonder how does Apple stack against other online computer retailers.
True its not. It is a good indicator that people who are savvy enough to buy computers online are buying Mac's. I wonder how does Apple stack against other online computer retailers.
One reason Amazon doesn't apply as an example is that it's the only way to get a decent discount on Apple computers.
Ha ha. Where do you get off thinking that your average consumer knows what they "need" in a mac? The average consumer doesn't know jack about what they need in their computer. Apple is equipping their consumer end models with what people will need to do iLife (iMovie, iPhoto, Podcasting, Multi-way Video Conference chatting, Dashboarding, etc.) They can't do that by selling el cheapo 300 dollar machines!!!!!!
Those programs are, for many people, problems in search of a solution, or basically a somewhat nicer way to do something.
How many people here record podcasts? iChat video conferencing assumes you know other Mac users and want to talk to them (and see them). iPhoto is nice, but there are plenty of good, inexpensive or free software that performs similar functions, like Picasa, which I have my dad using. Dashboard is not really relevant, IMO, Yahoo Widgets does the same thing with a lot less of a memory footprint. iMovie is possibly an exception, but I think Pinnacle Studio is better and more powerful, it's pretty affordable and a $300 can surely run it, my 500MHz PIII system runs it fine.
The same could be said for USB, Firewire, Ethernet, and Airport in the original iMac.
When I first got my iMac in 1999, I had to get a parallel to USB adaptor for my printer. I had no use for ethernet and no use for Airport.
Now I use them all and have no use for the modem.
Also iLife is all integrated. If you find a collection of apps from different developers they likely won't all cooperate seamlessly.
Using apple-history, the original iMac didn't have airport, even as an option. It wasn't a standard item until the second revision of the iMac G5.
The integration between different software products like Picasa and Pinnacle studio isn't bad. Picasa allows me to send email using Thunderbird. iPhoto does not, so for me, Picasa has better integration. So the software itself isn't significantly better, just slightly better.
Still, to me, where Macs really shine are the maintainability. They are quick and easy to back up (though unfortunately, a third party program), easy to keep a cold-spare external boot drive. My current system backup is Ghost, and that requires the computer to be down for ghosting, unlike SuperDuper. The system less likely to fubar itself, and easier to fix when it does and less likely to need a system reinstall, better security, currently negligible spyware and virus threat and so on. Even if it does need an OS reinstall, it doesn't mean reinstalling everything and the programs, preferences and options going *poof*. These make the necessity of buying a new computer less likely.
You gotta remember-- Apple themselves predicted soft sales during the Intel transition, and by all measures, they're doing much better during that term than they thought they would. To only lose 1/10th of 1 percent of U.S. market share right in the middle of it is not too shabby. Those last numbers were at the tail-end of the iBook's life span. We all need to re-visit these numbers when the whole Intel transition is complete, since so many potential Mac buyers are on the sidelines waiting for Intel machines.
The numbers in this article clearly only account for one quarter and ignores the millions of Macs sold in previous quarters. That certainly cannot account for over all market share.
There are still lots of working G3 iMac's around. I still have mine that I got in 1999.
You have hit the nail on the head. It's the time frame. What's to keep pundits from using a monthly time frame for their twisting of the market share myth.
To heck with months let's talk minutes.
hmm. In the last ten minute period Apple only has a .75% market share. It's doom and gloom. Time to sell all the stock. They are going under.
What a bunch of nothing. Taking a quarter out of context and calling it market share is nothing but an attempt to twist numbers.
wait, Wait, WAIT! In the last 5 second segment Apple hit a 50% market share. Buy the stock back. What was I thinking!
It's funny to listen to people's bickering comments on the line of logic that "this is awful and is proof that they need to release product x."
For the first quarter last year, Apple was widely expected to see a 20% decline in unit sales due to the intel transition (and the fact that units were not available to buy. Instead, they managed to keep unit shipments fairly flat-- strong sales given quantities available (and of course good profit!).
For the second quarter, Apple should see a big jump in unit sales- the two primary desktop lines are readily available and held in high regard. Their first Intel laptop is also readily available and selling strong. The 17" isn't widely available yet (hell, people like myself have been waiting four years for the damn thing!), but will see very strong sales for the quarter. Now the 13" are also readily available, and just in time for their primary target audience's main buying season!
The fact that Apple's market share dropped last quarter doesn't scare me at all, but wow-- the opportunity for growth in the June and September quarters blows my mind!
(Oh, and if you want to use your fancy new Mac laptop at work rather than the company standard Dull, just install Parallels Desktop for any windows-specific stuff and be done with it. Find the "geek" on the IT team who will get a thrill out of installing all their crap software on your beautiful computer.)
Using apple-history, the original iMac didn't have airport, even as an option. It wasn't a standard item until the second revision of the iMac G5.
You are not looking at the model of iMac I had. Airport card did not come standard, you had to buy the card separately. The point still stands that iMac was WiFi ready years before Wifi was a usable feature.
Quote:
Picasa allows me to send email using Thunderbird. iPhoto does not, so for me, Picasa has better integration.
That's a matter of circumstance, not a feature limit. iPhoto does seamlessly integrate with Apple Mail, it may not integrate with Thunderbird. That's something that could be easily corrected.
Ever tried Ubuntu/Kubuntu? You do not have to touch the terminal if you dont want to.
Ubuntu and Kubuntu are disasters, since everything is integrated into the OS. It's ok for first-time-linux, but starts to feel a bit constricted after a while. I'd suggest Fedora instead. Slackware is also apparently quite good.
A $899 laptop and a $750 mini-tower set-up. The only sub $1000 Mac is the mini. That isn't enough IMO. The software is fine.
You have to show that these offerings won't cannibalize higher end macs and maintain revenue as well as margin over time.
Lets say you have a mac core duo mini-tower with one PCIe Graphics and one PCIe slot at $750 in a cube like offering (or shuttle if so inclined). How many mac Mini and iMac sales do you think will occur at this point?
Hmmm...the phrase "not a whole lot" comes to mind. Congrats, you've just decimated the entire desktop line except for one model at a far lower pricepoint. Even if you maintain margins you STILL need to show that unit sales will increase to make up and exceed the difference in total revenue.
Vinea
PS If its not core duo then everyone will STILL be whining.
This has been discussed before, Amazon is not an indicator of what the overall market is doing.
Given its one of the indicators used by analysts its a good enough indicator for a rough read on relative sales within the Apple line as well as which models appeal to consumers.
You can assume Dell, HP, etc outsells Apple. /shrug Do you have a better source for overall market behavior? Can you say which computer and laptop has the most overall sales?
Besides, I made that comment to refute that Apple ignores what people want. If they truly ignored what everyone wanted then rebates or not they wouldn't be top sellers anywhere BUT the Apple Store. The volume would be too low to show up much on Amazon if they truly sucked.
You have to show that these offerings won't cannibalize higher end macs and maintain revenue as well as margin over time.
Lets say you have a mac core duo mini-tower with one PCIe Graphics and one PCIe slot at $750 in a cube like offering (or shuttle if so inclined). How many mac Mini and iMac sales do you think will occur at this point?
Hmmm...the phrase "not a whole lot" comes to mind. Congrats, you've just decimated the entire desktop line except for one model at a far lower pricepoint. Even if you maintain margins you STILL need to show that unit sales will increase to make up and exceed the difference in total revenue.
Vinea
PS If its not core duo then everyone will STILL be whining.
Well we've been through this before. While I understand and respect your position, we'll just have to agree to disagree. One model with 2 configurations under $1000 just ain't gonna be enough to raise market share IMO.
Ubuntu and Kubuntu are disasters, since everything is integrated into the OS. It's ok for first-time-linux, but starts to feel a bit constricted after a while. I'd suggest Fedora instead. Slackware is also apparently quite good.
They are easy to use though and they are quickly climbing to be the most popular.
Market share is definitely different from installed base. A consumer survey might show the installed base for a particular market segment, but it doesn't show market share.
It's not as different as you think. If you look at the use of browsers, you can get a decent estimate of marketshare. Even given the obvious fact that not all Mac users use Safari, the vast majority do. With that, the numbers are about what the marketshare numbers show. You can throw another percent or so in for that "other browser" usage, but you end up with about 2.7 - 3% worldwide, and 4 to 5% USA marketshare.
Apple's market share has been slowly climbing for a few years now, you haven't been paying attention, it was below three percent, now it is about five.
True, except for this year. Apple's marketshare will have dropped last quarter, and this quarter as well. Apple's sales were up but a fraction last quarter, less than the overall market. The same will be true this quarter, though it will be closer. Hopefully, next quarter, things will be better. The holiday quarter, the first of next year, should show marketshare growing again.
By that time, only a handful of major programs will not be Universal. Quark will be, and that's important. If the Mac Pro tower is out, and shows good speed through Rosetta, then those sales will finally pick up, which will help. If the MBP, and iMac go to a fast Meron chip, Rosetta will perform fairly close to the older machines they have replaced. The MBP might even equal the PB's performance. That should help significantly.
Of course, in a large market such as the one computers occupy, absolute numbers are important as well, and quickly rising sales will help in both areas.
You have to show that these offerings won't cannibalize higher end macs and maintain revenue as well as margin over time.
Lets say you have a mac core duo mini-tower with one PCIe Graphics and one PCIe slot at $750 in a cube like offering (or shuttle if so inclined). How many mac Mini and iMac sales do you think will occur at this point?
Hmmm...the phrase "not a whole lot" comes to mind. Congrats, you've just decimated the entire desktop line except for one model at a far lower pricepoint. Even if you maintain margins you STILL need to show that unit sales will increase to make up and exceed the difference in total revenue.
Vinea
PS If its not core duo then everyone will STILL be whining.
I don't think it would affect the iMac's sales much, if at all. People are buying the iMac because of its integration. They wouldn't go for seperate components instead. You can look at the audio market. Cheap pre-amps, tuners, and power amps don't make the person who wants the integration of a receiver, switch.
The Mini's sales would be affected though. And that would be a good thing. As long as it were big enough for a full length graphics card, we would have many more choices again, because of the simple fact that there would be many more Macs sold that could accept one.
I believe that this would be a very popular desktop machine. A mini tower with one Express graphic and one other open slot fits many market segments, including business.
Comments
I think this is debateable. I remember when Win 95 came out and Mac market share began a sharp nose dive.
Win95 wasn't a singular reason for Apple's troubles. Poor leadership was likely more to blame. MS was able to take advantage.
Vista is currently a mess and is set to fragment the MS user base.
It will happen again, because people are attracted to familiarity and price.
Its not likely the majority of Windows user will buy a stand alone copy of Vista, most people will use their current computer until it no longer works.
MS is continuing drag old baggage into Vista. Apple is in a better position to provide a cohesive user experience between hardware and software.
This has been discussed before, Amazon is not an indicator of what the overall market is doing
True its not. It is a good indicator that people who are savvy enough to buy computers online are buying Mac's. I wonder how does Apple stack against other online computer retailers.
Originally posted by TenoBell
True its not. It is a good indicator that people who are savvy enough to buy computers online are buying Mac's. I wonder how does Apple stack against other online computer retailers.
One reason Amazon doesn't apply as an example is that it's the only way to get a decent discount on Apple computers.
Originally posted by DeaPeaJay
Ha ha. Where do you get off thinking that your average consumer knows what they "need" in a mac? The average consumer doesn't know jack about what they need in their computer. Apple is equipping their consumer end models with what people will need to do iLife (iMovie, iPhoto, Podcasting, Multi-way Video Conference chatting, Dashboarding, etc.) They can't do that by selling el cheapo 300 dollar machines!!!!!!
Those programs are, for many people, problems in search of a solution, or basically a somewhat nicer way to do something.
How many people here record podcasts? iChat video conferencing assumes you know other Mac users and want to talk to them (and see them). iPhoto is nice, but there are plenty of good, inexpensive or free software that performs similar functions, like Picasa, which I have my dad using. Dashboard is not really relevant, IMO, Yahoo Widgets does the same thing with a lot less of a memory footprint. iMovie is possibly an exception, but I think Pinnacle Studio is better and more powerful, it's pretty affordable and a $300 can surely run it, my 500MHz PIII system runs it fine.
Does Amazon sell more Apple computers than Apple store?
Where does Apple computer rank in sales with other online stores?
Does Amazon sell more Apple computers than all other other online stores?
Those programs are, for many people, problems in search of a solution, or basically a somewhat nicer way to do something.
The same could be said for USB, Firewire, Ethernet, and Airport in the original iMac.
When I first got my iMac in 1999, I had to get a parallel to USB adaptor for my printer. I had no use for ethernet and no use for Airport.
Now I use them all and have no use for the modem.
Also iLife is all integrated. If you find a collection of apps from different developers they likely won't all cooperate seamlessly.
Originally posted by TenoBell
The same could be said for USB, Firewire, Ethernet, and Airport in the original iMac.
When I first got my iMac in 1999, I had to get a parallel to USB adaptor for my printer. I had no use for ethernet and no use for Airport.
Now I use them all and have no use for the modem.
Also iLife is all integrated. If you find a collection of apps from different developers they likely won't all cooperate seamlessly.
Using apple-history, the original iMac didn't have airport, even as an option. It wasn't a standard item until the second revision of the iMac G5.
The integration between different software products like Picasa and Pinnacle studio isn't bad. Picasa allows me to send email using Thunderbird. iPhoto does not, so for me, Picasa has better integration. So the software itself isn't significantly better, just slightly better.
Still, to me, where Macs really shine are the maintainability. They are quick and easy to back up (though unfortunately, a third party program), easy to keep a cold-spare external boot drive. My current system backup is Ghost, and that requires the computer to be down for ghosting, unlike SuperDuper. The system less likely to fubar itself, and easier to fix when it does and less likely to need a system reinstall, better security, currently negligible spyware and virus threat and so on. Even if it does need an OS reinstall, it doesn't mean reinstalling everything and the programs, preferences and options going *poof*. These make the necessity of buying a new computer less likely.
Originally posted by vinney57
[B but what's insanely great about that? What's uniquely Apple about that? [/B]
OSX, iLife, iWorks, Final Cut Studio (ok this might not run well in a budget Mac box)
Originally posted by TenoBell
The numbers in this article clearly only account for one quarter and ignores the millions of Macs sold in previous quarters. That certainly cannot account for over all market share.
There are still lots of working G3 iMac's around. I still have mine that I got in 1999.
You have hit the nail on the head. It's the time frame. What's to keep pundits from using a monthly time frame for their twisting of the market share myth.
To heck with months let's talk minutes.
hmm. In the last ten minute period Apple only has a .75% market share. It's doom and gloom. Time to sell all the stock. They are going under.
What a bunch of nothing. Taking a quarter out of context and calling it market share is nothing but an attempt to twist numbers.
wait, Wait, WAIT! In the last 5 second segment Apple hit a 50% market share. Buy the stock back. What was I thinking!
For the first quarter last year, Apple was widely expected to see a 20% decline in unit sales due to the intel transition (and the fact that units were not available to buy. Instead, they managed to keep unit shipments fairly flat-- strong sales given quantities available (and of course good profit!).
For the second quarter, Apple should see a big jump in unit sales- the two primary desktop lines are readily available and held in high regard. Their first Intel laptop is also readily available and selling strong. The 17" isn't widely available yet (hell, people like myself have been waiting four years for the damn thing!), but will see very strong sales for the quarter. Now the 13" are also readily available, and just in time for their primary target audience's main buying season!
The fact that Apple's market share dropped last quarter doesn't scare me at all, but wow-- the opportunity for growth in the June and September quarters blows my mind!
(Oh, and if you want to use your fancy new Mac laptop at work rather than the company standard Dull, just install Parallels Desktop for any windows-specific stuff and be done with it. Find the "geek" on the IT team who will get a thrill out of installing all their crap software on your beautiful computer.)
Using apple-history, the original iMac didn't have airport, even as an option. It wasn't a standard item until the second revision of the iMac G5.
You are not looking at the model of iMac I had. Airport card did not come standard, you had to buy the card separately. The point still stands that iMac was WiFi ready years before Wifi was a usable feature.
Picasa allows me to send email using Thunderbird. iPhoto does not, so for me, Picasa has better integration.
That's a matter of circumstance, not a feature limit. iPhoto does seamlessly integrate with Apple Mail, it may not integrate with Thunderbird. That's something that could be easily corrected.
Originally posted by SlicerDicer
Ever tried Ubuntu/Kubuntu? You do not have to touch the terminal if you dont want to.
Ubuntu and Kubuntu are disasters, since everything is integrated into the OS. It's ok for first-time-linux, but starts to feel a bit constricted after a while. I'd suggest Fedora instead. Slackware is also apparently quite good.
Originally posted by backtomac
A $899 laptop and a $750 mini-tower set-up. The only sub $1000 Mac is the mini. That isn't enough IMO. The software is fine.
You have to show that these offerings won't cannibalize higher end macs and maintain revenue as well as margin over time.
Lets say you have a mac core duo mini-tower with one PCIe Graphics and one PCIe slot at $750 in a cube like offering (or shuttle if so inclined). How many mac Mini and iMac sales do you think will occur at this point?
Hmmm...the phrase "not a whole lot" comes to mind. Congrats, you've just decimated the entire desktop line except for one model at a far lower pricepoint. Even if you maintain margins you STILL need to show that unit sales will increase to make up and exceed the difference in total revenue.
Vinea
PS If its not core duo then everyone will STILL be whining.
Originally posted by JeffDM
This has been discussed before, Amazon is not an indicator of what the overall market is doing.
Given its one of the indicators used by analysts its a good enough indicator for a rough read on relative sales within the Apple line as well as which models appeal to consumers.
You can assume Dell, HP, etc outsells Apple. /shrug Do you have a better source for overall market behavior? Can you say which computer and laptop has the most overall sales?
Besides, I made that comment to refute that Apple ignores what people want. If they truly ignored what everyone wanted then rebates or not they wouldn't be top sellers anywhere BUT the Apple Store. The volume would be too low to show up much on Amazon if they truly sucked.
Vinea
Originally posted by vinea
You have to show that these offerings won't cannibalize higher end macs and maintain revenue as well as margin over time.
Lets say you have a mac core duo mini-tower with one PCIe Graphics and one PCIe slot at $750 in a cube like offering (or shuttle if so inclined). How many mac Mini and iMac sales do you think will occur at this point?
Hmmm...the phrase "not a whole lot" comes to mind. Congrats, you've just decimated the entire desktop line except for one model at a far lower pricepoint. Even if you maintain margins you STILL need to show that unit sales will increase to make up and exceed the difference in total revenue.
Vinea
PS If its not core duo then everyone will STILL be whining.
Well we've been through this before. While I understand and respect your position, we'll just have to agree to disagree. One model with 2 configurations under $1000 just ain't gonna be enough to raise market share IMO.
Originally posted by mynamehere
Ubuntu and Kubuntu are disasters, since everything is integrated into the OS. It's ok for first-time-linux, but starts to feel a bit constricted after a while. I'd suggest Fedora instead. Slackware is also apparently quite good.
They are easy to use though and they are quickly climbing to be the most popular.
Originally posted by MajorMatt
At 2% we have thousands of the best software titles and countless hardware accessories
We have dozens of the best software titles, and many more that we do not have, including games.
Hardware is better, but there are still many hardware catagories that we have little choice in. Graphics boards are a pretty obvious one.
Originally posted by JeffDM
Market share is definitely different from installed base. A consumer survey might show the installed base for a particular market segment, but it doesn't show market share.
It's not as different as you think. If you look at the use of browsers, you can get a decent estimate of marketshare. Even given the obvious fact that not all Mac users use Safari, the vast majority do. With that, the numbers are about what the marketshare numbers show. You can throw another percent or so in for that "other browser" usage, but you end up with about 2.7 - 3% worldwide, and 4 to 5% USA marketshare.
Originally posted by JeffDM
Apple's market share has been slowly climbing for a few years now, you haven't been paying attention, it was below three percent, now it is about five.
True, except for this year. Apple's marketshare will have dropped last quarter, and this quarter as well. Apple's sales were up but a fraction last quarter, less than the overall market. The same will be true this quarter, though it will be closer. Hopefully, next quarter, things will be better. The holiday quarter, the first of next year, should show marketshare growing again.
By that time, only a handful of major programs will not be Universal. Quark will be, and that's important. If the Mac Pro tower is out, and shows good speed through Rosetta, then those sales will finally pick up, which will help. If the MBP, and iMac go to a fast Meron chip, Rosetta will perform fairly close to the older machines they have replaced. The MBP might even equal the PB's performance. That should help significantly.
Of course, in a large market such as the one computers occupy, absolute numbers are important as well, and quickly rising sales will help in both areas.
Originally posted by vinea
You have to show that these offerings won't cannibalize higher end macs and maintain revenue as well as margin over time.
Lets say you have a mac core duo mini-tower with one PCIe Graphics and one PCIe slot at $750 in a cube like offering (or shuttle if so inclined). How many mac Mini and iMac sales do you think will occur at this point?
Hmmm...the phrase "not a whole lot" comes to mind. Congrats, you've just decimated the entire desktop line except for one model at a far lower pricepoint. Even if you maintain margins you STILL need to show that unit sales will increase to make up and exceed the difference in total revenue.
Vinea
PS If its not core duo then everyone will STILL be whining.
I don't think it would affect the iMac's sales much, if at all. People are buying the iMac because of its integration. They wouldn't go for seperate components instead. You can look at the audio market. Cheap pre-amps, tuners, and power amps don't make the person who wants the integration of a receiver, switch.
The Mini's sales would be affected though. And that would be a good thing. As long as it were big enough for a full length graphics card, we would have many more choices again, because of the simple fact that there would be many more Macs sold that could accept one.
I believe that this would be a very popular desktop machine. A mini tower with one Express graphic and one other open slot fits many market segments, including business.