<strong>I still think Quark is way easier and quicker to use than Freehand !</strong><hr></blockquote>
your right. but then what? granted freehand has a lot extra stuff, most of which you'll never or should never use. but basic layout stuff, come on, how hard is to place an image in illustraor or freehand. you want type, select the type tool. easy peasy.
OK, we need to define easier. Let's say we have artwork with images (bitmaps) in. Fairly common, right? In Freehand or Illustrator, these programs attempt to EMBED the images into the doc. So if your doing a reasonable size newsletter, brochure etc, you are going to have a fair few images, yes? What you end up with is a MASSIVE file. Quark, sensibly, uses proxy images. Why? This has the advantage that you can have lower-resolution images as positionals, then easily substitute these for high-res ones when it comes to print time ! You can't do that in Freehand or Illustrator easily (yes, I know there's the links, but it's very clumsy), which is why no pro uses these programs for anything longer than 1 page.
As far as your earlier comment-
'what's your point? they tend to do that with all files wether they came from freehand or illustrator or photoshop. quark has some great features and support for those guys that work the prepress side of the fence. great, good for them. it's part of their work flow. that doesn't mean we have to use quark too.'
Sorry, I have 15 years experience in repro. Here's the deal and learn. Freehand, and to a lesser extent Illustrator, produce postscript files which the vast majority of RIPs on printers can't handle - all the nice transparency stuff etc. So to print it, you have to save the file as an EPS, normally version 8 unless it's a very new RIP. However, let's say we have made a 24 page doc in Freehand - what have repro got to do - make 24 EPS FILES !!! Then drop them into Quark. Kind of spoils the point of doing it in Freehand ? That's why pros do small stuff in vector programs, and layout in Quark. I think if I had to have 1 PROGRAM, Quark would be my choice.
[quote]OK, we need to define easier. Let's say we have artwork with images (bitmaps) in. Fairly common, right? In Freehand or Illustrator, these programs attempt to EMBED the images into the doc. So if your doing a reasonable size newsletter, brochure etc, you are going to have a fair few images, yes? What you end up with is a MASSIVE file. <hr></blockquote>
true with older versions of illustrator ( up until version 10), but freehand has had the option of linking to images (which is by default i believe) for years now. so there is no reason why you have to embed any image. no problems mate.
[quote]Sorry, I have 15 years experience in repro. Here's the deal and learn. Freehand, and to a lesser extent Illustrator, produce postscript files which the vast majority of RIPs on printers can't handle - all the nice transparency stuff etc. So to print it, you have to save the file as an EPS, normally version 8 unless it's a very new RIP. However, let's say we have made a 24 page doc in Freehand - what have repro got to do - make 24 EPS FILES !!! Then drop them into Quark. Kind of spoils the point of doing it in Freehand ?<hr></blockquote>
well, it only took me a year to realize the truth that your having such a hard time trying to see. this guy is not a repro guy. he does not care how the guys on the production end handle his job for the most part. he could care less what kind of rip it is being run on or what their work flow is. why should he, he is a designer. all he need to concern himself with is when he submits a job, it goes through and comes out the other end on time, on budget, and right.
i've worked for and with some of the best print and prepress companies in the country an have never had any hassles from them in regards to large freehand projects at any level. does it ever cost more money to do a freehand job? no. but who gives a $hit. he's not doing that scope of work any way. we are talking about fricking newsletters for god sake. not 20 + page brochures. why can't you see this. is quark a superior page layout program? yes. does it really matter in this case? no. let's move on.
oh yeah, before i forget, as far a transparency goes, no app really does it that well, except photoshop. illustrator's will give a rip opperator nightmares. indesign's is just as buggy, but freehands is not to bad and has been fairly usable for years. does that mean i would use it. no, there are better ways to do it, but it can be done if you know what the hell your doing.
[quote]That's why pros do small stuff in vector programs, and layout in Quark.<hr></blockquote>
for the most part your right, but as i've said in past posts i've known many seasoned top notch designers that not know there $hit and using freehand almost exclusively.
[quote]I think if I had to have 1 PROGRAM, Quark would be my choice. <hr></blockquote>
good for you, but then again your a repro guy, not a designer. quark is way to limited to be used for design work exclusively. any designer worth a damn would go out of their fricking minds using only quark.
I think it is too expensive for him, but Frame Maker is a rather nice layout program for multi-page documents, and it does a good job of converting them to html.
Of course, it would still have to be run in classic.
This is a spectator sport for me but please let me ask a question. Seems like I read repeatedly over the last couple years that .pdf was to be the new file format for publishing. In that case, use whatever app you like, export the content as a .pdf file and take that to the printer. Problems?
yes lots of problems with pdf files. They're a good file format but only if made properly. which doesn't happen all that often without guidance, especially since acrobat distiller defaults to web settings when it makes pdf's.
But back to the topic. Try out <a href="http://www.deneba.com/products/canvas8/default2.html"; target="_blank">Deneba Canvas</a>. It's an all in one that will do page layout, image retouching, illustration and web. And it's fairly cheap. This is one program I usually don't have a problem with when outputting film, and the web capabilities look good. I've recommended it to clients before and they have been very happy with it. They have a free evalution on their web site.
er, sort of ! If a job is set up properly, PDF files are a great way to send jobs out.
There lots of fun problems, though. There are 3 levels of PDF for a start - 1.2 to 1.4, and some RIP's don't like 1.4 - which unfortunately is the one that supports all the nice new things like transparency from Illustrator, etc.
Then you get RGB and spot colours in CMYK PDF files, and you need separate plug-ins for Acrobat to sort that out.
Best fun is if changes are needed to the text in a PDF - you still need the original font to do this - a special bummer if it's a PC font !
Most the time these problems are because designers insist on not pre-flighting their jobs before sending them out - they just distill the thing, presuming Acrobat will magic any problems away !
Checklist:
Check what version PDF the printer likes. Get him to send you a JobOptions file for Distiller with his settings in.
Wow. I haven't used Print Shop since the Apple ][ versions! I can remember when I thought people meant "Print Shop" when they said "Photoshop." Damn, I'm old.
Maybe I'm out of my league here, but Word, GraphicConvertor (<$50), AppleWorks (Free), BBEdit Lite (Free), and Photoshop Elements (<$99) are usually all I need for basic DTP such as flyers, newsletters and websites.
Comments
<strong>I still think Quark is way easier and quicker to use than Freehand !</strong><hr></blockquote>
your right. but then what? granted freehand has a lot extra stuff, most of which you'll never or should never use. but basic layout stuff, come on, how hard is to place an image in illustraor or freehand. you want type, select the type tool. easy peasy.
As far as your earlier comment-
'what's your point? they tend to do that with all files wether they came from freehand or illustrator or photoshop. quark has some great features and support for those guys that work the prepress side of the fence. great, good for them. it's part of their work flow. that doesn't mean we have to use quark too.'
Sorry, I have 15 years experience in repro. Here's the deal and learn. Freehand, and to a lesser extent Illustrator, produce postscript files which the vast majority of RIPs on printers can't handle - all the nice transparency stuff etc. So to print it, you have to save the file as an EPS, normally version 8 unless it's a very new RIP. However, let's say we have made a 24 page doc in Freehand - what have repro got to do - make 24 EPS FILES !!! Then drop them into Quark. Kind of spoils the point of doing it in Freehand ? That's why pros do small stuff in vector programs, and layout in Quark. I think if I had to have 1 PROGRAM, Quark would be my choice.
true with older versions of illustrator ( up until version 10), but freehand has had the option of linking to images (which is by default i believe) for years now. so there is no reason why you have to embed any image. no problems mate.
[quote]Sorry, I have 15 years experience in repro. Here's the deal and learn. Freehand, and to a lesser extent Illustrator, produce postscript files which the vast majority of RIPs on printers can't handle - all the nice transparency stuff etc. So to print it, you have to save the file as an EPS, normally version 8 unless it's a very new RIP. However, let's say we have made a 24 page doc in Freehand - what have repro got to do - make 24 EPS FILES !!! Then drop them into Quark. Kind of spoils the point of doing it in Freehand ?<hr></blockquote>
well, it only took me a year to realize the truth that your having such a hard time trying to see. this guy is not a repro guy. he does not care how the guys on the production end handle his job for the most part. he could care less what kind of rip it is being run on or what their work flow is. why should he, he is a designer. all he need to concern himself with is when he submits a job, it goes through and comes out the other end on time, on budget, and right.
i've worked for and with some of the best print and prepress companies in the country an have never had any hassles from them in regards to large freehand projects at any level. does it ever cost more money to do a freehand job? no. but who gives a $hit. he's not doing that scope of work any way. we are talking about fricking newsletters for god sake. not 20 + page brochures. why can't you see this. is quark a superior page layout program? yes. does it really matter in this case? no. let's move on.
oh yeah, before i forget, as far a transparency goes, no app really does it that well, except photoshop. illustrator's will give a rip opperator nightmares. indesign's is just as buggy, but freehands is not to bad and has been fairly usable for years. does that mean i would use it. no, there are better ways to do it, but it can be done if you know what the hell your doing.
[quote]That's why pros do small stuff in vector programs, and layout in Quark.<hr></blockquote>
for the most part your right, but as i've said in past posts i've known many seasoned top notch designers that not know there $hit and using freehand almost exclusively.
[quote]I think if I had to have 1 PROGRAM, Quark would be my choice. <hr></blockquote>
good for you, but then again your a repro guy, not a designer. quark is way to limited to be used for design work exclusively. any designer worth a damn would go out of their fricking minds using only quark.
"your a repro guy, not a designer".
Funny, the BBC hired me as one...
Hey maybe he should get Virtual PC, then he can still use Publisher ! In the new version it even does CMYK ! No, I'm not serious !!
Funny, the BBC hired me as one...<hr></blockquote>
i guess i shouldn't assume. my mistake.
[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: running with scissors ]</p>
Of course, it would still have to be run in classic.
But back to the topic. Try out <a href="http://www.deneba.com/products/canvas8/default2.html"; target="_blank">Deneba Canvas</a>. It's an all in one that will do page layout, image retouching, illustration and web. And it's fairly cheap. This is one program I usually don't have a problem with when outputting film, and the web capabilities look good. I've recommended it to clients before and they have been very happy with it. They have a free evalution on their web site.
.pdf was to be the new file format for publishing
<hr></blockquote>
er, sort of ! If a job is set up properly, PDF files are a great way to send jobs out.
There lots of fun problems, though. There are 3 levels of PDF for a start - 1.2 to 1.4, and some RIP's don't like 1.4 - which unfortunately is the one that supports all the nice new things like transparency from Illustrator, etc.
Then you get RGB and spot colours in CMYK PDF files, and you need separate plug-ins for Acrobat to sort that out.
Best fun is if changes are needed to the text in a PDF - you still need the original font to do this - a special bummer if it's a PC font !
Most the time these problems are because designers insist on not pre-flighting their jobs before sending them out - they just distill the thing, presuming Acrobat will magic any problems away !
Checklist:
Check what version PDF the printer likes. Get him to send you a JobOptions file for Distiller with his settings in.
Pre-flight your jobs BEFORE distilling !
The Print Shop sounds pretty good for you. New version just came out for OS X
<strong><a href="http://www.broderbund.com/Product.asp?OID=4147215&SC=0120056015&CID=545"; target="_blank">http://www.broderbund.com/Product.asp?OID=4147215&SC=0120056015&CID=545</a>;
The Print Shop sounds pretty good for you. New version just came out for OS X</strong><hr></blockquote>
dear god, make it stop.