All of them or just the one's you happen to be wearing? Be honest now.
Shoes - 4x Korea (all Shimano bike shoes), 2 Germany, 2 Italy, 1 China (asics running shoes) and 1 old pair of USA made Vans. I do quite badly at local shoes with none English.
Shirts - too many to count. I only wear t-shirts though. It's not that difficult to avoid the Gildans and the Fruits of the Looms of the world although I'm sure there's some in there that I've been given. I used to work as a bike journalist so for some years the only clothes I had were those I blagged, reviewed or were given by bike company PR.
Pants (in the English sense) - Yes, all Scottish as I only have one brand. Trousers on the other hand are Italian and Scottish. I only wear two brands and actually only have 3 pairs of trousers anyway although even they change about manufacturing facilities.
Most of the other stuff I've got is Taiwanese as that's where most of the world's bikes come from. There's a move to China and Vietnam but only in the low end and many of the high end companies just don't like the quality coming out of China just now.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Why?
I think globalisation is a real shame because companies end up shipping products all the way around the world using up stupid amounts of resources in doing so. Further, it means that local markets are colonised by foreign goods which are produced more cheaply than the locals can produce and those goods are often culturally bland and push out local culture.
See MacDonalds, Japanese cars, Bike manufacturers.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Hmmm...I'll bet that most of what most westerners own has no real purpose. We could all get by without our gadgets, with fewer clothes in our closets, smaller homes, etc.
Yes, and I do although I'll draw the line at no Mac or Bicycles. :-)
As I've got older I've realised what's important, and it's not possessions, although my bike collection probably says otherwise to most people. Most of the western world seems to be on a mission to consume and I know I'm at odds with that. I'm also fine with that.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
What is fine is that China (and India) are finally starting to grow (faster than any other countries in the world BTW)...and this growth is pulling their people up higher and faster.
And whilst doing so they're making some of the same mistakes we made and continue to make. That doesn't mean it's ok and it doesn't mean I want to appear to be preaching at the 3rd world about how to grow responsibly when we've not. But, if it's a western company we're talking about using 3rd world labour then I think we have just cause to be vigilant.
I'll start by saying I'm considered by most who know me as a radical liberal, and I have a Masters degree in Ethics.
Now, I have a (loaded) question for you...
Which is better, the 15 year old girl working 15 hours a day and bringing home an extra 4800 Yuan a year for her farming family, or the same give working 15 hour days in the fields?
It's easy for us to react to "$50/month" in horror, but without a little more context, it's pretty pointless. So, as of 2003 the average farmer in China was taking home about 1200 yuan a year. Yeah, so the iPod factory gives even a 15 year old girl (hypothetically) the opportunity to quadruple her family's income. Obviously the details of the working conditions are critical to determining how good or bad this situation really is. The Macworld article, if you can call it that, which isn't attributed to any author (a red flag) is truly awful reporting, and clearly meant to sensationalize the story. "workers live in dormitories that house 100 people" yeah, so? I went to college and lived in "dormitories that housed 400 people". It means nothing without some more context...my dorm was also patrolled by security guards, and didn't allow outsiders in. We were even "forced to live in small rooms with multiple strangers". It sounds really bad out of context, but perfectly accepted if you know it's referring to a college dorm.
Now, I'm not saying all Chinese factories are fun places, and that workers don't get abused both directly and indirectly, it absolutely happens, and that sucks, and we SHOULD BE MORE AWARE OF IT! And do our social duty to boycott businesses that violate human rights (Wal Mart for sure!) But I still say this article is utter rubbish for its sensationalism and complete lack of context and meaningful facts. I strongly urge all of you to write to Macworld and complain, not because "we love Apple", but because this is a truly important issue that should be properly reported.
I agree. One thing though, they recruit 16 and up.
The sad thing is Dell of all companies actually makes some of their PCs right here in the USA. That's right. Dell. I would even be willing to pay a premium for Macs/iPods made in the USA but I doubt many others would. We rely far too much on other countires as it is. Can't we do anything ourselves anymore?
I really REALLY doubt your taking about the components, you're probably talking about the assembly of the actual computer.
I am so sick of the two faced hypocritical statements and demands we put on as a facade to make us all feel better. That we are at LEAST complaining. On one side of the fence, we complain about corporations, monopolies, and dominating market, and "Squeezing out the little guy". This in a sense is related to self serving greed. We are all really concerned about popping the bubble of our personal "American Dream" of starting a company and getting filthy rich. We all don't want anything to come in the way of that. BUT, when we choose to buy from Wal-Mart, one who is notorious for overtaking small communities with a super store that puts all small business owners out of work, but even knowing this, the bottom line is that it is cheaper for us. I know of no competing computers that do not make and assemble most, if not all of their products somewhere other than America or Europe, due to the regulations, costs, permits, wages, etc., that would make that product no longer a competitive product due to price. Apple is under direct fire over their ipod "Dominance". Sony, Creative, Micro$oft, Toshiba, etc.. Would all like to do ANYTHING to reduce Apple's share of the pie, so that they can have a chance to gain it all for themselves. On a previous thread on this same topic, I wrote how the average Family income per household in China ranges from $890 (US) to $1,100 (US) per YEAR. It does suck, as to our standards, but at least with the business from ipods and computers, that wage became 2.2 x the average wage PLUS room and board, and only for ONE member of the household. It still sucks, but is is a giant step forward in progression of that economy. This is an upward trend that must continue for the people of China and many other countries. So next time you find yourself complaining about the fact that Apple does not make $200 desktops, or $300 laptops, or when you go to your local store, shop for what you want, ask questions, etc., then go home and buy from whoever because it was cheaper, remember that for companies to give that to you, it comes at a "Cost".
While I find such practises do suck, I remember that our countries were exactly the same a hundred years ago.
As China becomes more wealthy, the exact same things will happen there as happened here. Its part of the process of becoming a developed nation. It sucks watching other countries going through this process from my comfy chair and warm bed, and I don't like to see, or contribute too people being treated like shit, but its a temporary thing that you have to go through before you achieve the luxuries we are accostomed too.
Its up to us, as consumers to buy from companies that push foriegn companies towards equality, but we cant push it so far that they go out of business. Those conditions are better than having no job, no income, no home and no prospects.
I've worked in Hong Kong and China for 10 years and I've visited Foxconn and dozens of other factories. Companies like Apple, Home Depot, Walmart have strict requirements for working conditions. There can be temporary abuses, however.
Before we pass sentence on these people for "low pay" and exploiting let me relate this- whatever the conditions, there are at least 200 people every day lined up outside the factory to take the next vacancy.
The truth is, a brother and sister can work these factories for two years and change their family's economic stars forever. Yep, true. Many of the workers are from remote farm communities. They go home having saved about $3000 to $4000 each. That kind of money allows the purchase of a small farm or a shop. Getting hired on in Shenzhen factory is akin to winning the lottery for some (bet this statement ruffles some feathers).
So tell me, can you work ANY low end job in America for a two year stint and seriously do anything more than just feed yourself and family?
Dorms- true, the photo shows miserable conditions. My experience is that factories build much better. I have not seen the dorms at Fox but I would guess that the photo is showing a temporary condition- remember, the ramp up of production lines for iPod has been intense.
And true, there is a greater percentage of women working in all Chinese electronic factories.
Right, I'll keep buying pointless toys like iPods, safe in the knowledge that even though I'm probably harming some underage, overworked foreign worker now, it'll be all right in time.
So glad you cleared that up.
Ignoring your sarcasm, you're right, you should keep buying pointless toys even though they are produced by overworked foreign workers. The more involved other countries become in China's economy, the better off it will be.
Comments
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
All of them or just the one's you happen to be wearing? Be honest now.
Shoes - 4x Korea (all Shimano bike shoes), 2 Germany, 2 Italy, 1 China (asics running shoes) and 1 old pair of USA made Vans. I do quite badly at local shoes with none English.
Shirts - too many to count. I only wear t-shirts though. It's not that difficult to avoid the Gildans and the Fruits of the Looms of the world although I'm sure there's some in there that I've been given. I used to work as a bike journalist so for some years the only clothes I had were those I blagged, reviewed or were given by bike company PR.
Pants (in the English sense) - Yes, all Scottish as I only have one brand. Trousers on the other hand are Italian and Scottish. I only wear two brands and actually only have 3 pairs of trousers anyway although even they change about manufacturing facilities.
Most of the other stuff I've got is Taiwanese as that's where most of the world's bikes come from. There's a move to China and Vietnam but only in the low end and many of the high end companies just don't like the quality coming out of China just now.
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Why?
I think globalisation is a real shame because companies end up shipping products all the way around the world using up stupid amounts of resources in doing so. Further, it means that local markets are colonised by foreign goods which are produced more cheaply than the locals can produce and those goods are often culturally bland and push out local culture.
See MacDonalds, Japanese cars, Bike manufacturers.
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Hmmm...I'll bet that most of what most westerners own has no real purpose. We could all get by without our gadgets, with fewer clothes in our closets, smaller homes, etc.
Yes, and I do although I'll draw the line at no Mac or Bicycles. :-)
As I've got older I've realised what's important, and it's not possessions, although my bike collection probably says otherwise to most people. Most of the western world seems to be on a mission to consume and I know I'm at odds with that. I'm also fine with that.
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
What is fine is that China (and India) are finally starting to grow (faster than any other countries in the world BTW)...and this growth is pulling their people up higher and faster.
And whilst doing so they're making some of the same mistakes we made and continue to make. That doesn't mean it's ok and it doesn't mean I want to appear to be preaching at the 3rd world about how to grow responsibly when we've not. But, if it's a western company we're talking about using 3rd world labour then I think we have just cause to be vigilant.
Originally posted by concentricity
I'll start by saying I'm considered by most who know me as a radical liberal, and I have a Masters degree in Ethics.
Now, I have a (loaded) question for you...
Which is better, the 15 year old girl working 15 hours a day and bringing home an extra 4800 Yuan a year for her farming family, or the same give working 15 hour days in the fields?
It's easy for us to react to "$50/month" in horror, but without a little more context, it's pretty pointless. So, as of 2003 the average farmer in China was taking home about 1200 yuan a year. Yeah, so the iPod factory gives even a 15 year old girl (hypothetically) the opportunity to quadruple her family's income. Obviously the details of the working conditions are critical to determining how good or bad this situation really is. The Macworld article, if you can call it that, which isn't attributed to any author (a red flag) is truly awful reporting, and clearly meant to sensationalize the story. "workers live in dormitories that house 100 people" yeah, so? I went to college and lived in "dormitories that housed 400 people". It means nothing without some more context...my dorm was also patrolled by security guards, and didn't allow outsiders in. We were even "forced to live in small rooms with multiple strangers". It sounds really bad out of context, but perfectly accepted if you know it's referring to a college dorm.
Now, I'm not saying all Chinese factories are fun places, and that workers don't get abused both directly and indirectly, it absolutely happens, and that sucks, and we SHOULD BE MORE AWARE OF IT! And do our social duty to boycott businesses that violate human rights (Wal Mart for sure!) But I still say this article is utter rubbish for its sensationalism and complete lack of context and meaningful facts. I strongly urge all of you to write to Macworld and complain, not because "we love Apple", but because this is a truly important issue that should be properly reported.
I agree. One thing though, they recruit 16 and up.
Originally posted by 1984
The sad thing is Dell of all companies actually makes some of their PCs right here in the USA. That's right. Dell. I would even be willing to pay a premium for Macs/iPods made in the USA but I doubt many others would. We rely far too much on other countires as it is. Can't we do anything ourselves anymore?
I really REALLY doubt your taking about the components, you're probably talking about the assembly of the actual computer.
Originally posted by ReCompile
I am so sick of the two faced hypocritical statements and demands we put on as a facade to make us all feel better. That we are at LEAST complaining. On one side of the fence, we complain about corporations, monopolies, and dominating market, and "Squeezing out the little guy". This in a sense is related to self serving greed. We are all really concerned about popping the bubble of our personal "American Dream" of starting a company and getting filthy rich. We all don't want anything to come in the way of that. BUT, when we choose to buy from Wal-Mart, one who is notorious for overtaking small communities with a super store that puts all small business owners out of work, but even knowing this, the bottom line is that it is cheaper for us. I know of no competing computers that do not make and assemble most, if not all of their products somewhere other than America or Europe, due to the regulations, costs, permits, wages, etc., that would make that product no longer a competitive product due to price. Apple is under direct fire over their ipod "Dominance". Sony, Creative, Micro$oft, Toshiba, etc.. Would all like to do ANYTHING to reduce Apple's share of the pie, so that they can have a chance to gain it all for themselves. On a previous thread on this same topic, I wrote how the average Family income per household in China ranges from $890 (US) to $1,100 (US) per YEAR. It does suck, as to our standards, but at least with the business from ipods and computers, that wage became 2.2 x the average wage PLUS room and board, and only for ONE member of the household. It still sucks, but is is a giant step forward in progression of that economy. This is an upward trend that must continue for the people of China and many other countries. So next time you find yourself complaining about the fact that Apple does not make $200 desktops, or $300 laptops, or when you go to your local store, shop for what you want, ask questions, etc., then go home and buy from whoever because it was cheaper, remember that for companies to give that to you, it comes at a "Cost".
While I find such practises do suck, I remember that our countries were exactly the same a hundred years ago.
As China becomes more wealthy, the exact same things will happen there as happened here. Its part of the process of becoming a developed nation. It sucks watching other countries going through this process from my comfy chair and warm bed, and I don't like to see, or contribute too people being treated like shit, but its a temporary thing that you have to go through before you achieve the luxuries we are accostomed too.
Its up to us, as consumers to buy from companies that push foriegn companies towards equality, but we cant push it so far that they go out of business. Those conditions are better than having no job, no income, no home and no prospects.
Before we pass sentence on these people for "low pay" and exploiting let me relate this- whatever the conditions, there are at least 200 people every day lined up outside the factory to take the next vacancy.
The truth is, a brother and sister can work these factories for two years and change their family's economic stars forever. Yep, true. Many of the workers are from remote farm communities. They go home having saved about $3000 to $4000 each. That kind of money allows the purchase of a small farm or a shop. Getting hired on in Shenzhen factory is akin to winning the lottery for some (bet this statement ruffles some feathers).
So tell me, can you work ANY low end job in America for a two year stint and seriously do anything more than just feed yourself and family?
Dorms- true, the photo shows miserable conditions. My experience is that factories build much better. I have not seen the dorms at Fox but I would guess that the photo is showing a temporary condition- remember, the ramp up of production lines for iPod has been intense.
And true, there is a greater percentage of women working in all Chinese electronic factories.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
Right, I'll keep buying pointless toys like iPods, safe in the knowledge that even though I'm probably harming some underage, overworked foreign worker now, it'll be all right in time.
So glad you cleared that up.
Ignoring your sarcasm, you're right, you should keep buying pointless toys even though they are produced by overworked foreign workers. The more involved other countries become in China's economy, the better off it will be.