It is if you don't get paid for every last frickin' minute you work. We have this serious problem in the U.S. where employees seem to think it's okay to have a salaried job and then work 70 hours a week. No overtime, no double time, no compensation whatsoever for working more than 40 hours. This is total bullshit and this is how companies get to report increased "productivity". The next time you hear a news report about productivity being up in the U.S. you can rest assured that the employers have managed to squeeze more work out of their employees without paying them anything for that extra work. That is exactly what "productivity" means. If productivity is up, then you must be screwed.
Oh yeah, the Germans have "transferrable" vacation time. it accrues over your lifetime and has nothing to do with how long you have worked for some company. What would be wrong with that? Oh wait it might hurt the screwing, er um, I mean "productivity".
It is if you don't get paid for every last frickin' minute you work. We have this serious problem in the U.S. where employees seem to think it's okay to have a salaried job and then work 70 hours a week. No overtime, no double time, no compensation whatsoever for working more than 40 hours. This is total bullshit and this is how companies get to report increased "productivity". The next time you hear a news report about productivity being up in the U.S. you can rest assured that the employers have managed to squeeze more work out of their employees without paying them anything for that extra work. That is exactly what "productivity" means. If productivity is up, then you must be screwed.
Oh yeah, the Germans have "transferrable" vacation time. it accrues over your lifetime and has nothing to do with how long you have worked for some company. What would be wrong with that? Oh wait it might hurt the screwing, er um, I mean "productivity".
This is starting to get off the track, but...
Apparently in the good ol USA the average middle to upper income earner works 2400 hours per year. That is hard work! Yet the same Dutch employee enjoys the same standard of living yet only works 1600 hours per year. Where do you want to be? (I suspect that the average lowly paid chinese worker works a 2400 hour year for a much lower standard of living)
It is if you don't get paid for every last frickin' minute you work. We have this serious problem in the U.S. where employees seem to think it's okay to have a salaried job and then work 70 hours a week. No overtime, no double time, no compensation whatsoever for working more than 40 hours. This is total bullshit and this is how companies get to report increased "productivity". The next time you hear a news report about productivity being up in the U.S. you can rest assured that the employers have managed to squeeze more work out of their employees without paying them anything for that extra work. That is exactly what "productivity" means. If productivity is up, then you must be screwed.
Oh yeah, the Germans have "transferrable" vacation time. it accrues over your lifetime and has nothing to do with how long you have worked for some company. What would be wrong with that? Oh wait it might hurt the screwing, er um, I mean "productivity".
It is a simple fear of standing up to the man; if something goes wrong and you need to do 2 hrs of over time to salvage a huge project that is one thing, but if you are talking the constant 70-80 hr weeks, that is a streight up lack of balls! At some point you have to just tell the boss streight up: "pay overtime or I will not stay one minute past 40 hours."
It is a simple fear of standing up to the man; if something goes wrong and you need to do 2 hrs of over time to salvage a huge project that is one thing, but if you are talking the constant 70-80 hr weeks, that is a streight up lack of balls! At some point you have to just tell the boss streight up: "pay overtime or I will not stay one minute past 40 hours."
You need to understand that living and working conditions are relative to the country within which they exist. If you have a beef about this, it's not about Apple or other foreign manufacturers in China (Korea, Malaysia, Vietnam, Czech Republic, Italy, Mexico...) it's about the country in question and not whether there are proper laws to protect workers from exploitation in those countries, but whether the pace of progress in such laws is reasonable.
Agreed, but is there no obligation for companies like Apple to conduct there business ethically (And I am in not way suggesting that a Company like Apple is generally unethical)? For example Nokia is listed on ethical managed funds so therefore must act ethically.
Wow! We are pretty defensive of Apple. I'm certain that if these allegations were made against, say, Microsoft, then we'd be all over them. Instead, we're making excuses of Tai Chi classes of all things?!
Not, trying to be a prude and I HOPE this is all a big lie from someone trying to discredit Apple (Creative?), but let's at least stop making strange excuses.
Wow! We are pretty defensive of Apple. I'm certain that if these allegations were made against, say, Microsoft, then we'd be all over them. Instead, we're making excuses of Tai Chi classes of all things?!
It's not making excuses if they're running things the same way as all comparable factories in those countries? If this is so bad, can you tell us another mp3 maker in china that has conditions you feel are better?
Sounds like you have a double standard, why do you expect apple to have factory conditions that are better than comparable ones there? How would you expect them to compete otherwise?
3: As a recent college grad waiting for the whole job thing to work out (which should happen in a couple of weeks) I can tell you that a month off is BORING...the first week is kinda nice, but it gets reallly old, you can only do so much job searching in a single day, once you have sent out a new batch of resumes, prepaired for interviews and replied to email, you have nothing else to do! I finish the daily tasks by noon, unless I have an interview...
Trust me, a month or more off would leave me and many other Americans begging for something to do!***
*** I have no disgressionry cash so no work is no fun
you know, it's funny. yesterday i was having this conversation with a co-worker about how it would kick ass to have a whole month of vacations. here in mexico you get one week and it increments depending on how many years you've worked at the company.
we ended up wishing we worked in spain or some other kick ass european country where they get a month off.
It's not making excuses if they're running things the same way as all comparable factories in those countries? If this is so bad, can you tell us another mp3 maker in china that has conditions you feel are better?
Sounds like you have a double standard, why do you expect apple to have factory conditions that are better than comparable ones there? How would you expect them to compete otherwise?
So, you're telling me that if this post was about Microsoft, then you wouldn't rip them a new one for their working conditions? If it were about Creative, then would you simply chalk it up them to trying to "compete"? If it were about iRiver, would you say, "Well, I bet Apple does the same thing"?
I might be wrong, but I doubt you would take it that way if it were anyone other than Apple.
So, you're telling me that if this post was about Microsoft, then you wouldn't rip them a new one for their working conditions? If it were about Creative, then would you simply chalk it up them to trying to "compete"? If it were about iRiver, would you say, "Well, I bet Apple does the same thing"?
The only thing that bothers me about sweatshops is that often participation is not willful in the first place. Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with them. A job is a job. If you are willing to take that job, then that's not my problem, or the problem of any goverment or foolhardy organization.
Quote:
Originally posted by toosday
Wow! We are pretty defensive of Apple. I'm certain that if these allegations were made against, say, Microsoft, then we'd be all over them. Instead, we're making excuses of Tai Chi classes of all things?!
Nope. I have long defended the workers' right to choose argument.
And one reason that workers are required to stay on site (but not "locked in") is that there is a huge culture of prostitution in the areas surrounding factories,
Those people need a workers revolution! They need to cast off the shackles of Capitalist oppression and fly the red flag of Communism. They need to read Marx, Engels and Mao Tse Tung!
Comments
Originally posted by a_greer
So we work hard; that is not bad is it?
It is if you don't get paid for every last frickin' minute you work. We have this serious problem in the U.S. where employees seem to think it's okay to have a salaried job and then work 70 hours a week. No overtime, no double time, no compensation whatsoever for working more than 40 hours. This is total bullshit and this is how companies get to report increased "productivity". The next time you hear a news report about productivity being up in the U.S. you can rest assured that the employers have managed to squeeze more work out of their employees without paying them anything for that extra work. That is exactly what "productivity" means. If productivity is up, then you must be screwed.
Oh yeah, the Germans have "transferrable" vacation time. it accrues over your lifetime and has nothing to do with how long you have worked for some company. What would be wrong with that? Oh wait it might hurt the screwing, er um, I mean "productivity".
Originally posted by WelshDog
It is if you don't get paid for every last frickin' minute you work. We have this serious problem in the U.S. where employees seem to think it's okay to have a salaried job and then work 70 hours a week. No overtime, no double time, no compensation whatsoever for working more than 40 hours. This is total bullshit and this is how companies get to report increased "productivity". The next time you hear a news report about productivity being up in the U.S. you can rest assured that the employers have managed to squeeze more work out of their employees without paying them anything for that extra work. That is exactly what "productivity" means. If productivity is up, then you must be screwed.
Oh yeah, the Germans have "transferrable" vacation time. it accrues over your lifetime and has nothing to do with how long you have worked for some company. What would be wrong with that? Oh wait it might hurt the screwing, er um, I mean "productivity".
This is starting to get off the track, but...
Apparently in the good ol USA the average middle to upper income earner works 2400 hours per year. That is hard work! Yet the same Dutch employee enjoys the same standard of living yet only works 1600 hours per year. Where do you want to be? (I suspect that the average lowly paid chinese worker works a 2400 hour year for a much lower standard of living)
Originally posted by orange whip
Where do you want to be?
Behind the big ass desk in the office marked "CEO"
Originally posted by WelshDog
It is if you don't get paid for every last frickin' minute you work. We have this serious problem in the U.S. where employees seem to think it's okay to have a salaried job and then work 70 hours a week. No overtime, no double time, no compensation whatsoever for working more than 40 hours. This is total bullshit and this is how companies get to report increased "productivity". The next time you hear a news report about productivity being up in the U.S. you can rest assured that the employers have managed to squeeze more work out of their employees without paying them anything for that extra work. That is exactly what "productivity" means. If productivity is up, then you must be screwed.
Oh yeah, the Germans have "transferrable" vacation time. it accrues over your lifetime and has nothing to do with how long you have worked for some company. What would be wrong with that? Oh wait it might hurt the screwing, er um, I mean "productivity".
It is a simple fear of standing up to the man; if something goes wrong and you need to do 2 hrs of over time to salvage a huge project that is one thing, but if you are talking the constant 70-80 hr weeks, that is a streight up lack of balls! At some point you have to just tell the boss streight up: "pay overtime or I will not stay one minute past 40 hours."
Originally posted by a_greer
It is a simple fear of standing up to the man; if something goes wrong and you need to do 2 hrs of over time to salvage a huge project that is one thing, but if you are talking the constant 70-80 hr weeks, that is a streight up lack of balls! At some point you have to just tell the boss streight up: "pay overtime or I will not stay one minute past 40 hours."
Absolutely...
Originally posted by tonton
You need to understand that living and working conditions are relative to the country within which they exist. If you have a beef about this, it's not about Apple or other foreign manufacturers in China (Korea, Malaysia, Vietnam, Czech Republic, Italy, Mexico...) it's about the country in question and not whether there are proper laws to protect workers from exploitation in those countries, but whether the pace of progress in such laws is reasonable.
Agreed, but is there no obligation for companies like Apple to conduct there business ethically (And I am in not way suggesting that a Company like Apple is generally unethical)? For example Nokia is listed on ethical managed funds so therefore must act ethically.
Not, trying to be a prude and I HOPE this is all a big lie from someone trying to discredit Apple (Creative?), but let's at least stop making strange excuses.
Originally posted by toosday
Wow! We are pretty defensive of Apple. I'm certain that if these allegations were made against, say, Microsoft, then we'd be all over them. Instead, we're making excuses of Tai Chi classes of all things?!
It's not making excuses if they're running things the same way as all comparable factories in those countries? If this is so bad, can you tell us another mp3 maker in china that has conditions you feel are better?
Sounds like you have a double standard, why do you expect apple to have factory conditions that are better than comparable ones there? How would you expect them to compete otherwise?
Originally posted by a_greer
3: As a recent college grad waiting for the whole job thing to work out (which should happen in a couple of weeks) I can tell you that a month off is BORING...the first week is kinda nice, but it gets reallly old, you can only do so much job searching in a single day, once you have sent out a new batch of resumes, prepaired for interviews and replied to email, you have nothing else to do! I finish the daily tasks by noon, unless I have an interview...
Trust me, a month or more off would leave me and many other Americans begging for something to do!***
*** I have no disgressionry cash so no work is no fun
you know, it's funny. yesterday i was having this conversation with a co-worker about how it would kick ass to have a whole month of vacations. here in mexico you get one week and it increments depending on how many years you've worked at the company.
we ended up wishing we worked in spain or some other kick ass european country where they get a month off.
Originally posted by minderbinder
It's not making excuses if they're running things the same way as all comparable factories in those countries? If this is so bad, can you tell us another mp3 maker in china that has conditions you feel are better?
Sounds like you have a double standard, why do you expect apple to have factory conditions that are better than comparable ones there? How would you expect them to compete otherwise?
So, you're telling me that if this post was about Microsoft, then you wouldn't rip them a new one for their working conditions? If it were about Creative, then would you simply chalk it up them to trying to "compete"? If it were about iRiver, would you say, "Well, I bet Apple does the same thing"?
I might be wrong, but I doubt you would take it that way if it were anyone other than Apple.
Originally posted by toosday
So, you're telling me that if this post was about Microsoft, then you wouldn't rip them a new one for their working conditions? If it were about Creative, then would you simply chalk it up them to trying to "compete"? If it were about iRiver, would you say, "Well, I bet Apple does the same thing"?
Yes, that is precisely what he is telling you.
Originally posted by Chucker
Yes, that is precisely what he is telling you.
Then I am wrong and that would certainly be fair.
Originally posted by toosday
Wow! We are pretty defensive of Apple. I'm certain that if these allegations were made against, say, Microsoft, then we'd be all over them. Instead, we're making excuses of Tai Chi classes of all things?!
Nope. I have long defended the workers' right to choose argument.
Originally posted by tonton
And one reason that workers are required to stay on site (but not "locked in") is that there is a huge culture of prostitution in the areas surrounding factories,
Finally an answer to my sex question.
Originally posted by tonton
And such a culture is spreading to the West. Haven't you ever seen tai chi exercises in the park?
I went to the mall once before it opened because my car was in the shop and I had some spare time.
I was surprised to see a group of like 100 people doing taichi in the mall before it opened.
Didn't know people did that there hmm.