However, even without this act they have still done a lot of good.
Yep. Throughout Apple's history, Microsoft has been among the largest third-party software developers. They helped the Apple II flourish, and they helped the Mac grow. They have the largest Mac-only software development team outside Apple's own. All to their own profit, of course, but that doesn't mean Apple isn't grateful.
However, even without this act they have still done a lot of good.
MS has and continues to get in the way, MS does more harm then good. MS is responsible for closing the doors on any advancement within the computer industry. Bill Gates is a thief and a lier.
Hmmm... What's up with Microsoft not wanting to work with PDF and instead choosing to push its own format?
arrogance.....
and as long as they have this corporate philosophy they will continue to lose market share, and push people away from it's products....enterprise doesn't need a new "file format, standard"...also open source is where it's at it seems many are looking elsewhere. if google or others can get the network based software going then you can see a point where collaboration and sharing is the new model for software, and that is tough with it stuck to your desk.
Adobe said: "Adobe's concern is that Microsoft will fragment and possibly degrade existing and established standards, including PDF"
That's awesome. Adobe doesn't even trust Microsoft to do a "Save As PDF" properly. How frickin hard is it to implement Save-As-PDF? Adobe is probably right to be concerned that MS will bollocks-up PDF implementation.
The article doesn't say that MS is using XPS because Adobe may sue them if MS implements PDF.
It seems like MS has decided, okay, we'll do PDF, then we'll do this XPS thing, and then we'll bumble through how PDF relates to XPS. And then the whole XPS, PDF, Office2007 Document Format is all a bloody mess. Macro virus writers, take it up a notch!! Yeahhhhhhh
WTF. Obviously there's a lot of backstory that I'm not familiar with. Obviously there's a lot of tight integration planned for XPS and PDF into Vista. Such as say, hmmm... this other operating system called OS X.4 ...Adobe must be looking at this Vista scenario as well and must be worried about the mess that is Vista.
Microsoft is adding a feature. No matter how bad of a job they do, that's a good thing. A good thing. Nothing else.
Adobe, however, doesn't want that.
Why could Adobe possibly not want that?
Well, it just so happens that the primary current solution to export to PDF from Microsoft Office is? guess? A commercial product of Adobe's.
A-ha!
Could it be, possibly, that what Adobe really is trying to say is "OH NOEZ! Microsoft will do something for free that previously we made money off! Since we have no viable business model, we're gonna die! ZOMG!"?
Can't they license the tech to Microsoft? How did Apple get to implement PDF so tightly?
"Microsoft is adding a feature. No matter how bad of a job they do, that's a good thing. A good thing. Nothing else."
Not if the Vista/Office2007 PDF implementation is rubbish - imagine screwed up looking documents, corrupt files, and other nightmares trying to open Vista-made PDFs in Win2000, WinXP, MacOS, Linux, etc. Or using Adobe Acrobat Full version to edit and manipulate said Vista-made PDFs.
The bulk of PDF is an open standard. Anyone's allowed to implement it. Adobe's official argument isn't that Microsoft's feature is illegitimate; it's that Microsoft is abusing its monopoly.
Quote:
How did Apple get to implement PDF so tightly?
See above.
Quote:
Not if the Vista/Office2007 PDF implementation is rubbish - imagine screwed up looking documents, corrupt files, and other nightmares trying to open Vista-made PDFs in Win2000, WinXP, MacOS, Linux, etc. Or using Adobe Acrobat Full version to edit and manipulate said Vista-made PDFs.
Well, it's not like Apple's or Adobe's PDF implementations are entirely bug-free. Just a few weeks ago, I saved a webpage to PDF, sent it via SMB to my father (running Windows XP with Adobe Reader 7), and he couldn't open it. Non-descriptive error. So, he couldn't print it either. Unclear whether Apple or Adobe is at fault, but?_point is, it's never been entirely painless.
Could Microsoft make it worse? Yeah, they could. But I don't believe they will.
Hmm... You can probably sense the venom for Microsoft doing PDF in my posts, but anyway your calm explanations seem to offer a reasonable alternative view into the current fracas.
Then to Adobe then, if the bulk of PDF is open standard, then surely they have been long, long prepared for Microsoft to have implemented Save-To-PDF.....
"Could Microsoft make [PDF implementation] worse?"
Gates lives in a dream land, he overestimated the acceptance of cutting edge technology. Everybody uses Windows, but most users don't understand how to exploit the most basic aspects of the interface. They guess their way through it every day at work, then come home and get frustrated because they can't manage their digital photographs.
The average user can't arrange two windows beside each other and copy a file from one folder to the other. It's a big frustrating guessing game for most, and MS has done nothing to educate them.
Doesn't this tell us more about "Computer skills" in
general rather than something about a particular OS?
MS has and continues to get in the way, MS does more harm then good. MS is responsible for closing the doors on any advancement within the computer industry. Bill Gates is a thief and a lier.
Ahaaa, there is someone out there in this tiny world
who hates MS more than me. Jeez. MS gives me the creeps
Adobe has the most retarded argument against Microsoft ever. Apple already has a system-wide Save As PDF implementation, let alone for individual applications.
Doesn't this tell us more about "Computer skills" in
general rather than something about a particular OS?
Hm?
It tells us Microsoft Windows (all flavours) sucks ass.
Yes I think I hate MS as much as some of y'all on this thread.
Trouble is I need it for PC games (Half Life 2 is awesome, as well as LOTR: Battle for Middle Earth 2)... And to get a reasonable job around where I am, Microsoft is inevitable.
It burns and twists me up but what can ya do........ Can't live in this magical Mac wonderland all of the time.
Doesn't this tell us more about "Computer skills" in
general rather than something about a particular OS?
Hm?
It tells us Microsoft Windows (all flavours) sucks ass.
Yes I think I hate MS as much as some of y'all on this thread.
Trouble is I need it for PC games (Half Life 2 is awesome, as well as LOTR: Battle for Middle Earth 2)... And to get a reasonable job around where I am, Microsoft is inevitable.
It burns and twists me up but what can ya do........ Can't live in this magical Mac wonderland all of the time.
Australia, Holland, England... In that order...! Australia just has to beat Croatia in its next match and it should qualify for the final knockout rounds for (I think) the first time ever in history of the World Cup. At the moment Harry Kewell and Gerrard are my favourite Liverpool/ football-in-general players. 8) Kewell is an Australian
Well, here's the real truth I'm gonna share with you all.
(Those not interested in my life story can skip this post )
***WARNING: SOB STORY TO FOLLOW***
I graduated from college majoring in Molecular Biology and 1/4 of my degree was in Computer Science. In 1999 I completed my internship at a prestigious medical research institute in Australia. But I absolutely hated BioScience. And eventually all the mice we killed for experimental purposes (the most humane way is to do a quick snap of their necks) got to me... Even though, when you see neurons form clusters and network with each other under the microscope. I was, when I saw it for the first time, like, Whoa...!!
But anyway luckily along the way while at college I tinkered with simple web design and I was very interested in databases and then web-interactive databases so I managed to learn up and do some part-time work at the time in Cold Fusion.
In 2000-2002 I was in San Fran, living out my American Dream fantasy. Got in on just the last bit of the dot com boom via a thin portfolio but with excellent references... My whole Mac fandom worked very well as I moved from bad-Photoshop stuff on PCs and simple HTML onwards to a bit of coding but focusing a lot on learning to be a "real" graphic/web designer... 2000-2004 I increased my skillset and eventually got into doing some freelance work for Sydney ad agency. (2003 returned to Australia)
But that's the thing... The "zone" I was in with the Mac and all that was while I had regular work, actually doing simpler web design/admin stuff but exploring creative work and music (dutch trance style) on my Macs (bought and sold various ones over time).
As a young person, you take it for granted at the time, but 2000-2002 I was earning $60,000 US per year, and then in 2003 earning $50,000 AUD per year. The core bit of making a living helps with living independently, not being too stressed, and living a decent young, fun lifestyle. But I took the jobs and their decent, stable salaries for granted as I pursued ever bigger challenges... pursuing the challenges to keep my moods up and fight the boredom....
I really admire the "real" design pros that can/ have to produce work of very high quality day in and day out. Towards the end of 2004 I managed to get more exciting design jobs as my business networking and graphic skills improved.
But so did the stress. Overload of graphic-Mac-creative design stuff in 2004, complemented with a September 2003 episode where I got "lost" on a mountainside in New Zealand where instead of fun snowboarding I thought I was gonna fucking die out in the cold without anyone finding my body until the summer...
So all this eventually towards end of 2004 my bipolar disorder surfaced strongly and got really bad.
So end of 2004 I bailed, and been back with the parents in one of these Axis of Not-So-Evil but We've-Got-Our-Eye-On-You countries and been in the wilderness 2005-2006 figuring out what's wrong with me and getting treated properly.
Am more mentally "stable" now but to be in the Mac-design-earning a living zone, seems just a bit out of reach. Like a mental block. I'd say I had talent as a designer but did not have the training or ability to produce commercially like professional designers. When I was employed 1998-2004 it was via jobs where web skills were important but these weren't major creative houses, they were companies that needed web admin/ regular design/ some coding interfacing with the engineers/IT people.
I do feel that the Mac design web skills are rusting slowly, but what to do while I recover? Helping my retired parents, that's I guess a way to feel useful now. It will take a while to recover, and find perhaps another vocation more suitable to a more "even" feeling that I am on now, the graphic design/ coding stuff was heavily fueled by "being in the zone" by riding the highs of making a new project or learning some new thing, eg. using Flash coding/design in a way that my co-workers had never seen before.
Anyway, now just a Mac fan and here on the forums to discuss stuff (we can all do that regardless of our education and experience) and learn about all sorts of Apple goings-on.
Comments
DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! OH AND DONT FORGET THE DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! lol
Originally posted by Chucker
There was no such financial rescue. Urban myth alert.
Originally posted by MacCrazy
Yep. Throughout Apple's history, Microsoft has been among the largest third-party software developers. They helped the Apple II flourish, and they helped the Mac grow. They have the largest Mac-only software development team outside Apple's own. All to their own profit, of course, but that doesn't mean Apple isn't grateful.
Originally posted by MacCrazy
MS has and continues to get in the way, MS does more harm then good. MS is responsible for closing the doors on any advancement within the computer industry. Bill Gates is a thief and a lier.
Originally posted by sunilraman
Hmmm... What's up with Microsoft not wanting to work with PDF and instead choosing to push its own format?
arrogance.....
and as long as they have this corporate philosophy they will continue to lose market share, and push people away from it's products....enterprise doesn't need a new "file format, standard"...also open source is where it's at it seems many are looking elsewhere. if google or others can get the network based software going then you can see a point where collaboration and sharing is the new model for software, and that is tough with it stuck to your desk.
Originally posted by sunilraman
Hmmm... What's up with Microsoft not wanting to work with PDF and instead choosing to push its own format?
How about this reason?
That's awesome. Adobe doesn't even trust Microsoft to do a "Save As PDF" properly. How frickin hard is it to implement Save-As-PDF? Adobe is probably right to be concerned that MS will bollocks-up PDF implementation.
The article doesn't say that MS is using XPS because Adobe may sue them if MS implements PDF.
It seems like MS has decided, okay, we'll do PDF, then we'll do this XPS thing, and then we'll bumble through how PDF relates to XPS. And then the whole XPS, PDF, Office2007 Document Format is all a bloody mess. Macro virus writers, take it up a notch!! Yeahhhhhhh
WTF. Obviously there's a lot of backstory that I'm not familiar with. Obviously there's a lot of tight integration planned for XPS and PDF into Vista. Such as say, hmmm... this other operating system called OS X.4 ...Adobe must be looking at this Vista scenario as well and must be worried about the mess that is Vista.
Microsoft is adding a feature. No matter how bad of a job they do, that's a good thing. A good thing. Nothing else.
Adobe, however, doesn't want that.
Why could Adobe possibly not want that?
Well, it just so happens that the primary current solution to export to PDF from Microsoft Office is? guess? A commercial product of Adobe's.
A-ha!
Could it be, possibly, that what Adobe really is trying to say is "OH NOEZ! Microsoft will do something for free that previously we made money off! Since we have no viable business model, we're gonna die! ZOMG!"?
Yes, it could.
"Microsoft is adding a feature. No matter how bad of a job they do, that's a good thing. A good thing. Nothing else."
Not if the Vista/Office2007 PDF implementation is rubbish - imagine screwed up looking documents, corrupt files, and other nightmares trying to open Vista-made PDFs in Win2000, WinXP, MacOS, Linux, etc. Or using Adobe Acrobat Full version to edit and manipulate said Vista-made PDFs.
Originally posted by sunilraman
Can't they license the tech to Microsoft?
The bulk of PDF is an open standard. Anyone's allowed to implement it. Adobe's official argument isn't that Microsoft's feature is illegitimate; it's that Microsoft is abusing its monopoly.
How did Apple get to implement PDF so tightly?
See above.
Not if the Vista/Office2007 PDF implementation is rubbish - imagine screwed up looking documents, corrupt files, and other nightmares trying to open Vista-made PDFs in Win2000, WinXP, MacOS, Linux, etc. Or using Adobe Acrobat Full version to edit and manipulate said Vista-made PDFs.
Well, it's not like Apple's or Adobe's PDF implementations are entirely bug-free. Just a few weeks ago, I saved a webpage to PDF, sent it via SMB to my father (running Windows XP with Adobe Reader 7), and he couldn't open it. Non-descriptive error. So, he couldn't print it either. Unclear whether Apple or Adobe is at fault, but?_point is, it's never been entirely painless.
Could Microsoft make it worse? Yeah, they could. But I don't believe they will.
Then to Adobe then, if the bulk of PDF is open standard, then surely they have been long, long prepared for Microsoft to have implemented Save-To-PDF.....
"Could Microsoft make [PDF implementation] worse?"
Well, you know my stance on that now
Originally posted by walshbj
...
Gates lives in a dream land, he overestimated the acceptance of cutting edge technology. Everybody uses Windows, but most users don't understand how to exploit the most basic aspects of the interface. They guess their way through it every day at work, then come home and get frustrated because they can't manage their digital photographs.
The average user can't arrange two windows beside each other and copy a file from one folder to the other. It's a big frustrating guessing game for most, and MS has done nothing to educate them.
general rather than something about a particular OS?
Hm?
Originally posted by iPeon
MS has and continues to get in the way, MS does more harm then good. MS is responsible for closing the doors on any advancement within the computer industry. Bill Gates is a thief and a lier.
Ahaaa, there is someone out there in this tiny world
who hates MS more than me. Jeez. MS gives me the creeps
any day. [/vomit mode off]
general rather than something about a particular OS?
Hm?
It tells us Microsoft Windows (all flavours) sucks ass.
Yes I think I hate MS as much as some of y'all on this thread.
Trouble is I need it for PC games (Half Life 2 is awesome, as well as LOTR: Battle for Middle Earth 2)... And to get a reasonable job around where I am, Microsoft is inevitable.
It burns and twists me up but what can ya do........ Can't live in this magical Mac wonderland all of the time.
Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
general rather than something about a particular OS?
Hm?
It tells us Microsoft Windows (all flavours) sucks ass.
Yes I think I hate MS as much as some of y'all on this thread.
Trouble is I need it for PC games (Half Life 2 is awesome, as well as LOTR: Battle for Middle Earth 2)... And to get a reasonable job around where I am, Microsoft is inevitable.
It burns and twists me up but what can ya do........ Can't live in this magical Mac wonderland all of the time.
You are quite an educated fan, are you not?
Btw, what is your team in the WC 2006?
Originally posted by sunilraman
...
Holland, England...
...)
Ouch.
You are quite an educated fan, are you not?
Well, here's the real truth I'm gonna share with you all.
(Those not interested in my life story can skip this post
***WARNING: SOB STORY TO FOLLOW***
I graduated from college majoring in Molecular Biology and 1/4 of my degree was in Computer Science. In 1999 I completed my internship at a prestigious medical research institute in Australia. But I absolutely hated BioScience. And eventually all the mice we killed for experimental purposes (the most humane way is to do a quick snap of their necks) got to me... Even though, when you see neurons form clusters and network with each other under the microscope. I was, when I saw it for the first time, like, Whoa...!!
But anyway luckily along the way while at college I tinkered with simple web design and I was very interested in databases and then web-interactive databases so I managed to learn up and do some part-time work at the time in Cold Fusion.
In 2000-2002 I was in San Fran, living out my American Dream fantasy. Got in on just the last bit of the dot com boom via a thin portfolio but with excellent references... My whole Mac fandom worked very well as I moved from bad-Photoshop stuff on PCs and simple HTML onwards to a bit of coding but focusing a lot on learning to be a "real" graphic/web designer... 2000-2004 I increased my skillset and eventually got into doing some freelance work for Sydney ad agency. (2003 returned to Australia)
But that's the thing... The "zone" I was in with the Mac and all that was while I had regular work, actually doing simpler web design/admin stuff but exploring creative work and music (dutch trance style) on my Macs (bought and sold various ones over time).
As a young person, you take it for granted at the time, but 2000-2002 I was earning $60,000 US per year, and then in 2003 earning $50,000 AUD per year. The core bit of making a living helps with living independently, not being too stressed, and living a decent young, fun lifestyle. But I took the jobs and their decent, stable salaries for granted as I pursued ever bigger challenges... pursuing the challenges to keep my moods up and fight the boredom....
I really admire the "real" design pros that can/ have to produce work of very high quality day in and day out. Towards the end of 2004 I managed to get more exciting design jobs as my business networking and graphic skills improved.
But so did the stress. Overload of graphic-Mac-creative design stuff in 2004, complemented with a September 2003 episode where I got "lost" on a mountainside in New Zealand where instead of fun snowboarding I thought I was gonna fucking die out in the cold without anyone finding my body until the summer...
So all this eventually towards end of 2004 my bipolar disorder surfaced strongly and got really bad.
So end of 2004 I bailed, and been back with the parents in one of these Axis of Not-So-Evil but We've-Got-Our-Eye-On-You countries and been in the wilderness 2005-2006 figuring out what's wrong with me and getting treated properly.
Am more mentally "stable" now but to be in the Mac-design-earning a living zone, seems just a bit out of reach. Like a mental block. I'd say I had talent as a designer but did not have the training or ability to produce commercially like professional designers. When I was employed 1998-2004 it was via jobs where web skills were important but these weren't major creative houses, they were companies that needed web admin/ regular design/ some coding interfacing with the engineers/IT people.
I do feel that the Mac design web skills are rusting slowly, but what to do while I recover? Helping my retired parents, that's I guess a way to feel useful now. It will take a while to recover, and find perhaps another vocation more suitable to a more "even" feeling that I am on now, the graphic design/ coding stuff was heavily fueled by "being in the zone" by riding the highs of making a new project or learning some new thing, eg. using Flash coding/design in a way that my co-workers had never seen before.
Anyway, now just a Mac fan and here on the forums to discuss stuff (we can all do that regardless of our education and experience) and learn about all sorts of Apple goings-on.