Apparently you don't get the point of insider forums.
Most of the time people call bullshit, so you call proof. It's the nature of the boards. If you don't like being asked to proove something.. gtfo
It depends upon the nature of what you're bullshitting. This is a well established fact.
This would be like me saying, the G4 is pretty much a G3, but with a vector unit called Altivec, and you saying, "OMG get out of here." Well established fact. I'm not going to scour Motorola's (well, now Freescale's) website for it.
Honestly, I don't even know where to look for the ATI/NVIDIA driver thing. I think I read it on lists.apple.com? I dunno.
I have it out for ATI because their drivers are complete trash. They are 2 binary digits short of spyware!
Frankly, I have never seen any ATI-made driver collect or transmit information so I wonder where you are getting that. I've never had any stability problem with any ATI product either. I do wonder if you are trying to commit an act of slander and libel.
All I wanted to know was the specifics. Because I've heard multiple stories. This has been hashed on out on these forums a few times and the facts have never been consistent. I've heard Apple builds the drivers WITH ATI. I've heard ATI builds the drivers FOR Apple. I've heard ATI gives the source to Apple for them to figure out on their own. I've heard 3rd parties are highered to develop them.
All I was looking for was some real information. You shouldn't get hurt or mad when someone asks you to prove something. I've been asked to prove things on these boards dozens of times that I assumed others knew. I have a lot more posts than you and have been on for less time. What this COULD mean is you aren't up on these boards as much... which is fine I'm not calling you a newb... but the point being is that you or anyone else for that matter may not being up to speed on events as one may assume. It's the nature of forums, you are asked to prove your bullshit every time you post.
Frankly, I have never seen any ATI-made driver collect or transmit information so I wonder where you are getting that. I've never had any stability problem with any ATI product either. I do wonder if you are trying to commit an act of slander and libel.
Are you talking about for the PC or mac?
On the PC when you first install the catalyst drivers there is a packet that is sent out. But the saying... 2 binary digits short of spyware, was meant to say it isn't spyware but COULD be.
What I was saying (and other DIY builders will agree with me) that ATI drivers / software is Bloatware. It involves so much more software and drivers than Nvidia drivers.
I'm assuming you have used both... compare the 2. Nvidia is a driver with settings done with Win32, where as ATI has this slow flash like application that consumes the majority of the screen. They install 5+ apps (depending on the version) that could easily be morphed into 1.
Don't even get me started on linux. You go to nvidia's website, and install the drivers. No messing with depmod or anything of the sort. But when it comes to ATI drivers you are almost always required to rebuild the kernel to get it to work.
I'm assuming you have used both... compare the 2. Nvidia is a driver with settings done with Win32, where as ATI has this slow flash like application that consumes the majority of the screen. They install 5+ apps (depending on the version) that could easily be morphed into 1.
You can just install the driver without having to run Cadalyst. It is plainly available for download from the ATI site. The Cadalyst software does install non-driver stuff, a video player, DVD and other things, but nothing horrible, just nothing that I need.
I never let any program run or any program transmit without my deliberate approval and I don't remember one being transmitted during the installation or operation.
I would. That's nonsense. That IS something you would have to prove.
There is a lot of trash talk about ATI's drivers, but I've never had any more problems with them than with Nvidia's.
The truth is that end users of software are very different than the programming community.
I haven't programmed for over ten years now, so I'm not up on all of the little arguments I see here, and other places. I keep out of the real techie stuff in that area for that reason.
But, I rarely care what a programmer has to say about software. I've seen good programming practices, and bad ones. What matters in the end is whether it works properly, or not. ATI's drivers have been fine.
And when comparing boards, use proper comparisons. The latest boards against the latest boards, model to model.
The one thing that's great about the PC board market is that with the many manufacturers out there, they compete. We don't have that here. They tweak their boards, add more memory, put better coolers on, over-clock to different extents, etc.
We have none of that. When some say that we have enough choice, it's BS. We have NO choice.
And, while some Nvidia boards are better, some ATI boards are better also. But, we'll never know, because we don't have the ability to find out.
On the PC when you first install the catalyst drivers there is a packet that is sent out. But the saying... 2 binary digits short of spyware, was meant to say it isn't spyware but COULD be.
What I was saying (and other DIY builders will agree with me) that ATI drivers / software is Bloatware. It involves so much more software and drivers than Nvidia drivers.
I'm assuming you have used both... compare the 2. Nvidia is a driver with settings done with Win32, where as ATI has this slow flash like application that consumes the majority of the screen. They install 5+ apps (depending on the version) that could easily be morphed into 1.
Don't even get me started on linux. You go to nvidia's website, and install the drivers. No messing with depmod or anything of the sort. But when it comes to ATI drivers you are almost always required to rebuild the kernel to get it to work.
For this board, what ever MAY be true for PC and Linux drivers, is totally irrelevent.
Compare MAC drivers, nothing else matters here. Even when running BootCamp.
For this board, what ever MAY be true for PC and Linux drivers, is totally irrelevent.
Compare MAC drivers, nothing else matters here. Even when running BootCamp.
It may matter though.
If Nvidia (or ati) develops 1 set of drivers for OS X like they have for windows, linux, solaris... We'll be able to use ANY aftermarket nvidia board. I could walk into compusa and pick up a EVGA 7950gtx and slap it in the mac pro (assuming it has SLI support) and away I go.
There is nothing stopping Nvidia from doing this. Unless apple puts up a potential block... but why, it would only look bad on apple's part? Our graphics card options will all the sudden change when the mac pro comes out.
This is why it is important to look at what is available in the PC world. Mac boards will be PC boards. No more big endian vs little endian stuff. For the most part the internal GPU code will be the same. The interfacing with OS X will obviously be different... but I forsee getting any graphics card we so desire from ATI & Nvidia in the future.
It was a joke ffs. It came from a joke of Lewis Black stating that the people that wrote the bible were 2 hairs short of being a baboon.
The point being ATI's software installed with the drivers is bloatware. I've never noticed a place to install the driver only if you have the catalyst cd. ATI software is a lot of overhead that could be extremely simplified.
If Nvidia (or ati) develops 1 set of drivers for OS X like they have for windows, linux, solaris... We'll be able to use ANY aftermarket nvidia board. I could walk into compusa and pick up a EVGA 7950gtx and slap it in the mac pro (assuming it has SLI support) and away I go.
There is nothing stopping Nvidia from doing this. Unless apple puts up a potential block... but why, it would only look bad on apple's part? Our graphics card options will all the sudden change when the mac pro comes out.
This is why it is important to look at what is available in the PC world. Mac boards will be PC boards. No more big endian vs little endian stuff. For the most part the internal GPU code will be the same. The interfacing with OS X will obviously be different... but I forsee getting any graphics card we so desire from ATI & Nvidia in the future.
Too many "ifs". I don't work with "if". There is no guarantee that Nvidia will do anything. there are very few Mac's with the capability of taking a video card. If Apple can't figure out a way to sell a ton of Towers, there won't ever be. At one time, Apple had most of their lineup that fit some video card. Even the Cube could. Not today.
ATI proved that with just a bit of a firmware tweak, a card could work in either a Mac, or a PC. But they chose to have only one card that could do that, and not a very strong card at that. Nvidia has never shown ANY interest in doing that, so I have to give ATI some credit for doing it at all.
If anyone will do this, therefore, it would be ATI, going on their record over the years. But, don't hold your breath.
Too many "ifs". I don't work with "if". There is no guarantee that Nvidia will do anything. there are very few Mac's with the capability of taking a video card. If Apple can't figure out a way to sell a ton of Towers, there won't ever be. At one time, Apple had most of their lineup that fit some video card. Even the Cube could. Not today.
Not going to bite on that one. There will be many more mac pro's than solaris boxes with in a year's time. And Nvidia makes drivers for solaris boxes (they keep updating them too for the quadro cards). The whole point about the new pc cards is you wouldn't have to flash the firmware. You will be able to take a pc graphics card and put it in your mac and run it with the correct drivers! It's the same as running the same graphics card in freebsd, linux, windows, solaris without a flash. For Nvidia, a gpu sale is a gpu sale. If they can gain 20k more gpu sales... I think that is worth it to write some os x drivers. In fact, I guarantee apple will be using nvidia cards with the mac pro. So the code will already be written. Who gets it is of question.
Quote:
ATI proved that with just a bit of a firmware tweak, a card could work in either a Mac, or a PC. But they chose to have only one card that could do that, and not a very strong card at that. Nvidia has never shown ANY interest in doing that, so I have to give ATI some credit for doing it at all.
If anyone will do this, therefore, it would be ATI, going on their record over the years. But, don't hold your breath.
Actually you're wrong about that. Nvidia was the first company to have the flashable graphics card. 3dfx was the FIRST company to do that with the voodoo4. I had one. I did it. It worked. Then Nvidia bought 3dfx. And then did the SAME with the geforce 2mx and the geforce 3 and geforce 3mx.
Not going to bite on that one. There will be many more mac pro's than solaris boxes with in a year's time. And Nvidia makes drivers for solaris boxes (they keep updating them too for the quadro cards). The whole point about the new pc cards is you wouldn't have to flash the firmware. You will be able to take a pc graphics card and put it in your mac and run it with the correct drivers! It's the same as running the same graphics card in freebsd, linux, windows, solaris without a flash. For Nvidia, a gpu sale is a gpu sale. If they can gain 20k more gpu sales... I think that is worth it to write some os x drivers. In fact, I guarantee apple will be using nvidia cards with the mac pro. So the code will already be written. Who gets it is of question.
Actually you're wrong about that. Nvidia was the first company to have the flashable graphics card. 3dfx was the FIRST company to do that with the voodoo4. I had one. I did it. It worked. Then Nvidia bought 3dfx. And then did the SAME with the geforce 2mx and the geforce 3 and geforce 3mx.
ATI did it a bit later with the 8500. (I couldn't find the article on it, but I know they did it because my friend did it with his radeon 8500).
I can't speak about Sun boxes, but I doubt that in the industrial world, Apple has the same standing, or marketpower. There are likely far more Sun users that will buy cards than Mac users.
But, you're talking about flashable cards. I'm not. There is an ATI card, though I don't remember which one, in the 9000 series, though I'm certain someone here will, that comes, out of the box, ready to run on either a Mac (PPC), or a PC.
Flashable cards are nothing new. I've flashed ATI cards, for others, for years.
The average customer isn't interested in flashable cards. They want a card, and they want it to work. That's it.
We are not the average consumer, and we shouldn't forget that. Companies won't flash cards either. If it's not factory standard, it has a small possible market. And, the Mac market is small enough already.
I can't speak about Sun boxes, but I doubt that in the industrial world, Apple has the same standing, or marketpower. There are likely far more Sun users that will buy cards than Mac users.
But, you're talking about flashable cards. I'm not. There is an ATI card, though I don't remember which one, in the 9000 series, though I'm certain someone here will, that comes, out of the box, ready to run on either a Mac (PPC), or a PC.
I'm pretty confident there wasn't such an animal. I've kept up on all of that... expecially through the 9000 series. None of which ATI shipped in a box would work in both. At least it never said that on the box. They specifically had to release cards labeled as mac all through the 9000 series.
I'm pretty confident there wasn't such an animal. I've kept up on all of that... expecially through the 9000 series. None of which ATI shipped in a box would work in both. At least it never said that on the box. They specifically had to release cards labeled as mac all through the 9000 series.
Perhaps that also paves the way for BIOS + EFI cards. It would be great for Apple and Mac users and it wouldn't be that hard convincing companies, as they'll have to make that switch eventually as EFI is the next thing.
I have never seen this on the market. That is pretty cool.
This is exactly why I have NEVER believed any of the theories about PPC vs x86, or any such nonsense. We don't get the cards because we are part of a very small market. a market that is much too small for anyone to care about.
With ATI doing that with one card, which worked very well from what I remember reading, they could have done it for all of their cards. I asked one of the top people at ATI about that. I was told that if the card sold well to Mac people (they can tell by the warranty info people send in) Then they would be happy to consider doing it for other cards. It was a sales test.
Unfortunately, we failed the test. No other cards like that were produced.
Nvidia, anf it's producers, weren't even interested enough to try.
Perhaps that also paves the way for BIOS + EFI cards. It would be great for Apple and Mac users and it wouldn't be that hard convincing companies, as they'll have to make that switch eventually as EFI is the next thing.
I'll believe it when I see it.
I've heard this all before from the rest of the Mac community, when OS X was first coming out. UNIX based OX: that will make it easier.
Comments
Originally posted by emig647
Apparently you don't get the point of insider forums.
Most of the time people call bullshit, so you call proof. It's the nature of the boards. If you don't like being asked to proove something.. gtfo
It depends upon the nature of what you're bullshitting. This is a well established fact.
This would be like me saying, the G4 is pretty much a G3, but with a vector unit called Altivec, and you saying, "OMG get out of here." Well established fact. I'm not going to scour Motorola's (well, now Freescale's) website for it.
Honestly, I don't even know where to look for the ATI/NVIDIA driver thing. I think I read it on lists.apple.com? I dunno.
Originally posted by emig647
They are 2 binary digits short of spyware!
Who can argue with that?
Originally posted by emig647
I have it out for ATI because their drivers are complete trash. They are 2 binary digits short of spyware!
Frankly, I have never seen any ATI-made driver collect or transmit information so I wonder where you are getting that. I've never had any stability problem with any ATI product either. I do wonder if you are trying to commit an act of slander and libel.
All I was looking for was some real information. You shouldn't get hurt or mad when someone asks you to prove something. I've been asked to prove things on these boards dozens of times that I assumed others knew. I have a lot more posts than you and have been on for less time. What this COULD mean is you aren't up on these boards as much... which is fine I'm not calling you a newb... but the point being is that you or anyone else for that matter may not being up to speed on events as one may assume. It's the nature of forums, you are asked to prove your bullshit every time you post.
Originally posted by JeffDM
Frankly, I have never seen any ATI-made driver collect or transmit information so I wonder where you are getting that. I've never had any stability problem with any ATI product either. I do wonder if you are trying to commit an act of slander and libel.
Are you talking about for the PC or mac?
On the PC when you first install the catalyst drivers there is a packet that is sent out. But the saying... 2 binary digits short of spyware, was meant to say it isn't spyware but COULD be.
What I was saying (and other DIY builders will agree with me) that ATI drivers / software is Bloatware. It involves so much more software and drivers than Nvidia drivers.
I'm assuming you have used both... compare the 2. Nvidia is a driver with settings done with Win32, where as ATI has this slow flash like application that consumes the majority of the screen. They install 5+ apps (depending on the version) that could easily be morphed into 1.
Don't even get me started on linux. You go to nvidia's website, and install the drivers. No messing with depmod or anything of the sort. But when it comes to ATI drivers you are almost always required to rebuild the kernel to get it to work.
Originally posted by emig647
I'm assuming you have used both... compare the 2. Nvidia is a driver with settings done with Win32, where as ATI has this slow flash like application that consumes the majority of the screen. They install 5+ apps (depending on the version) that could easily be morphed into 1.
You can just install the driver without having to run Cadalyst. It is plainly available for download from the ATI site. The Cadalyst software does install non-driver stuff, a video player, DVD and other things, but nothing horrible, just nothing that I need.
I never let any program run or any program transmit without my deliberate approval and I don't remember one being transmitted during the installation or operation.
And this is for my Windows computers.
Originally posted by gregmightdothat
Who can argue with that?
I would. That's nonsense. That IS something you would have to prove.
There is a lot of trash talk about ATI's drivers, but I've never had any more problems with them than with Nvidia's.
The truth is that end users of software are very different than the programming community.
I haven't programmed for over ten years now, so I'm not up on all of the little arguments I see here, and other places. I keep out of the real techie stuff in that area for that reason.
But, I rarely care what a programmer has to say about software. I've seen good programming practices, and bad ones. What matters in the end is whether it works properly, or not. ATI's drivers have been fine.
And when comparing boards, use proper comparisons. The latest boards against the latest boards, model to model.
The one thing that's great about the PC board market is that with the many manufacturers out there, they compete. We don't have that here. They tweak their boards, add more memory, put better coolers on, over-clock to different extents, etc.
We have none of that. When some say that we have enough choice, it's BS. We have NO choice.
And, while some Nvidia boards are better, some ATI boards are better also. But, we'll never know, because we don't have the ability to find out.
Originally posted by emig647
Are you talking about for the PC or mac?
On the PC when you first install the catalyst drivers there is a packet that is sent out. But the saying... 2 binary digits short of spyware, was meant to say it isn't spyware but COULD be.
What I was saying (and other DIY builders will agree with me) that ATI drivers / software is Bloatware. It involves so much more software and drivers than Nvidia drivers.
I'm assuming you have used both... compare the 2. Nvidia is a driver with settings done with Win32, where as ATI has this slow flash like application that consumes the majority of the screen. They install 5+ apps (depending on the version) that could easily be morphed into 1.
Don't even get me started on linux. You go to nvidia's website, and install the drivers. No messing with depmod or anything of the sort. But when it comes to ATI drivers you are almost always required to rebuild the kernel to get it to work.
For this board, what ever MAY be true for PC and Linux drivers, is totally irrelevent.
Compare MAC drivers, nothing else matters here. Even when running BootCamp.
Originally posted by melgross
For this board, what ever MAY be true for PC and Linux drivers, is totally irrelevent.
Compare MAC drivers, nothing else matters here. Even when running BootCamp.
It may matter though.
If Nvidia (or ati) develops 1 set of drivers for OS X like they have for windows, linux, solaris... We'll be able to use ANY aftermarket nvidia board. I could walk into compusa and pick up a EVGA 7950gtx and slap it in the mac pro (assuming it has SLI support) and away I go.
There is nothing stopping Nvidia from doing this. Unless apple puts up a potential block... but why, it would only look bad on apple's part? Our graphics card options will all the sudden change when the mac pro comes out.
This is why it is important to look at what is available in the PC world. Mac boards will be PC boards. No more big endian vs little endian stuff. For the most part the internal GPU code will be the same. The interfacing with OS X will obviously be different... but I forsee getting any graphics card we so desire from ATI & Nvidia in the future.
Originally posted by gregmightdothat
Who can argue with that?
It was a joke ffs. It came from a joke of Lewis Black stating that the people that wrote the bible were 2 hairs short of being a baboon.
The point being ATI's software installed with the drivers is bloatware. I've never noticed a place to install the driver only if you have the catalyst cd. ATI software is a lot of overhead that could be extremely simplified.
Originally posted by emig647
It may matter though.
If Nvidia (or ati) develops 1 set of drivers for OS X like they have for windows, linux, solaris... We'll be able to use ANY aftermarket nvidia board. I could walk into compusa and pick up a EVGA 7950gtx and slap it in the mac pro (assuming it has SLI support) and away I go.
There is nothing stopping Nvidia from doing this. Unless apple puts up a potential block... but why, it would only look bad on apple's part? Our graphics card options will all the sudden change when the mac pro comes out.
This is why it is important to look at what is available in the PC world. Mac boards will be PC boards. No more big endian vs little endian stuff. For the most part the internal GPU code will be the same. The interfacing with OS X will obviously be different... but I forsee getting any graphics card we so desire from ATI & Nvidia in the future.
Too many "ifs". I don't work with "if". There is no guarantee that Nvidia will do anything. there are very few Mac's with the capability of taking a video card. If Apple can't figure out a way to sell a ton of Towers, there won't ever be. At one time, Apple had most of their lineup that fit some video card. Even the Cube could. Not today.
ATI proved that with just a bit of a firmware tweak, a card could work in either a Mac, or a PC. But they chose to have only one card that could do that, and not a very strong card at that. Nvidia has never shown ANY interest in doing that, so I have to give ATI some credit for doing it at all.
If anyone will do this, therefore, it would be ATI, going on their record over the years. But, don't hold your breath.
Originally posted by melgross
Too many "ifs". I don't work with "if". There is no guarantee that Nvidia will do anything. there are very few Mac's with the capability of taking a video card. If Apple can't figure out a way to sell a ton of Towers, there won't ever be. At one time, Apple had most of their lineup that fit some video card. Even the Cube could. Not today.
Not going to bite on that one. There will be many more mac pro's than solaris boxes with in a year's time. And Nvidia makes drivers for solaris boxes (they keep updating them too for the quadro cards). The whole point about the new pc cards is you wouldn't have to flash the firmware. You will be able to take a pc graphics card and put it in your mac and run it with the correct drivers! It's the same as running the same graphics card in freebsd, linux, windows, solaris without a flash. For Nvidia, a gpu sale is a gpu sale. If they can gain 20k more gpu sales... I think that is worth it to write some os x drivers. In fact, I guarantee apple will be using nvidia cards with the mac pro. So the code will already be written. Who gets it is of question.
ATI proved that with just a bit of a firmware tweak, a card could work in either a Mac, or a PC. But they chose to have only one card that could do that, and not a very strong card at that. Nvidia has never shown ANY interest in doing that, so I have to give ATI some credit for doing it at all.
If anyone will do this, therefore, it would be ATI, going on their record over the years. But, don't hold your breath.
Actually you're wrong about that. Nvidia was the first company to have the flashable graphics card. 3dfx was the FIRST company to do that with the voodoo4. I had one. I did it. It worked. Then Nvidia bought 3dfx. And then did the SAME with the geforce 2mx and the geforce 3 and geforce 3mx.
Here are some articles if you don't believe me:
Flash Geforce 2mx
Flash geforce 3
ATI did it a bit later with the 8500. (I couldn't find the article on it, but I know they did it because my friend did it with his radeon 8500).
Originally posted by emig647
Not going to bite on that one. There will be many more mac pro's than solaris boxes with in a year's time. And Nvidia makes drivers for solaris boxes (they keep updating them too for the quadro cards). The whole point about the new pc cards is you wouldn't have to flash the firmware. You will be able to take a pc graphics card and put it in your mac and run it with the correct drivers! It's the same as running the same graphics card in freebsd, linux, windows, solaris without a flash. For Nvidia, a gpu sale is a gpu sale. If they can gain 20k more gpu sales... I think that is worth it to write some os x drivers. In fact, I guarantee apple will be using nvidia cards with the mac pro. So the code will already be written. Who gets it is of question.
Actually you're wrong about that. Nvidia was the first company to have the flashable graphics card. 3dfx was the FIRST company to do that with the voodoo4. I had one. I did it. It worked. Then Nvidia bought 3dfx. And then did the SAME with the geforce 2mx and the geforce 3 and geforce 3mx.
Here are some articles if you don't believe me:
Flash Geforce 2mx
Flash geforce 3
ATI did it a bit later with the 8500. (I couldn't find the article on it, but I know they did it because my friend did it with his radeon 8500).
I can't speak about Sun boxes, but I doubt that in the industrial world, Apple has the same standing, or marketpower. There are likely far more Sun users that will buy cards than Mac users.
But, you're talking about flashable cards. I'm not. There is an ATI card, though I don't remember which one, in the 9000 series, though I'm certain someone here will, that comes, out of the box, ready to run on either a Mac (PPC), or a PC.
Flashable cards are nothing new. I've flashed ATI cards, for others, for years.
The average customer isn't interested in flashable cards. They want a card, and they want it to work. That's it.
We are not the average consumer, and we shouldn't forget that. Companies won't flash cards either. If it's not factory standard, it has a small possible market. And, the Mac market is small enough already.
Originally posted by melgross
I can't speak about Sun boxes, but I doubt that in the industrial world, Apple has the same standing, or marketpower. There are likely far more Sun users that will buy cards than Mac users.
But, you're talking about flashable cards. I'm not. There is an ATI card, though I don't remember which one, in the 9000 series, though I'm certain someone here will, that comes, out of the box, ready to run on either a Mac (PPC), or a PC.
I'm pretty confident there wasn't such an animal. I've kept up on all of that... expecially through the 9000 series. None of which ATI shipped in a box would work in both. At least it never said that on the box. They specifically had to release cards labeled as mac all through the 9000 series.
Originally posted by emig647
I'm pretty confident there wasn't such an animal. I've kept up on all of that... expecially through the 9000 series. None of which ATI shipped in a box would work in both. At least it never said that on the box. They specifically had to release cards labeled as mac all through the 9000 series.
You're wrong I'm afraid...
I have never seen this on the market. That is pretty cool.
Originally posted by Amorya
You're wrong I'm afraid...
Thank you!
Originally posted by emig647
Wow!!
I have never seen this on the market. That is pretty cool.
This is exactly why I have NEVER believed any of the theories about PPC vs x86, or any such nonsense. We don't get the cards because we are part of a very small market. a market that is much too small for anyone to care about.
With ATI doing that with one card, which worked very well from what I remember reading, they could have done it for all of their cards. I asked one of the top people at ATI about that. I was told that if the card sold well to Mac people (they can tell by the warranty info people send in) Then they would be happy to consider doing it for other cards. It was a sales test.
Unfortunately, we failed the test. No other cards like that were produced.
Nvidia, anf it's producers, weren't even interested enough to try.
Originally posted by Placebo
Perhaps that also paves the way for BIOS + EFI cards. It would be great for Apple and Mac users and it wouldn't be that hard convincing companies, as they'll have to make that switch eventually as EFI is the next thing.
I'll believe it when I see it.
I've heard this all before from the rest of the Mac community, when OS X was first coming out. UNIX based OX: that will make it easier.