1 thing for Leopard and I'll toss the rest
All I want from Leopard is:
Windows shortcut key mappings. 1 click setting in the preference pane.
If that was added it would be enough for me to say 'Upgrade' and this thing is worth the $129.
Apple key shortcuts SUCK when you work on both OS's, go with the friggin standard already. Ctrl+C Ctrl+V, Home, End, Arrows...just make them work. Just work. JUST WORK.
Yeah, i know there are third party options and remapping and suck like that but it should be a check box in the OS. Done.
thanks.
Windows shortcut key mappings. 1 click setting in the preference pane.
If that was added it would be enough for me to say 'Upgrade' and this thing is worth the $129.
Apple key shortcuts SUCK when you work on both OS's, go with the friggin standard already. Ctrl+C Ctrl+V, Home, End, Arrows...just make them work. Just work. JUST WORK.
Yeah, i know there are third party options and remapping and suck like that but it should be a check box in the OS. Done.
thanks.
Comments
Our shortcut keys are better, for a start -- command is easier to press (with thumb) than control is (with little finger?) without some strange contortion exercises.
And if you make it an option, you'll end up with a situation where people sit down at a Mac and it might use PC shortcuts, or might use Mac ones. That inconsistency would be far worse than just having separate shortcuts for Mac and Windows.
Amorya
Build it in, its so minor as to be stupid not to have it already. Lets get back to the user, what does the user want? Simplicity and not relearning what they already know.
Get a PC to Mac switcher on there and the first thing they touch is the keyboard and mouse, make it work like they think it works. Drop the frustration exercise. Anyone else think like this? People just want to get things done, not fiddle around with is it a command or apple or control key.
Originally posted by Chucker
I looooove it when people use Mac OS X, then complain that it doesn't work "the same way the other 99% do".
that's not the point, it should just work. like i said in the previous post
drop the exercise in frustration and get the job done. Something so basic as keyboard entry should 'just work' with a click to what someone is used to.
Originally posted by Chucker
I looooove it when people use Mac OS X, then complain that it doesn't work "the same way the other 99% do".
I suppose you don't use right click either? Somehow that got built in back in Jaguar I believe...same thing.
Originally posted by sandau
Apple key shortcuts SUCK when you work on both OS's, go with the friggin standard already. Ctrl+C Ctrl+V, Home, End, Arrows...
Have you lost your mind? APPLE was first with command-x, command-c, and command-v for Cut, Copy, and Paste.
It was the CRIMINAL BILL GATES who, not having a Command key on his PC-clone keyboards, had the bright idea (read: only choice) to use the Control key instead.
And guess what keys the CRIMINAL BILL GATES just happened to RANDOMLY CHOOSE for Cut, Copy, and Paste? Why x,c and v of course.
Screw him. Screw Windows.
Apple designed it first on the Mac and they have NO obligation to "make it like Windows". Sheesh.
Apple key shortcuts SUCK when you work on both OS's...[/B]
Then you say this:
i didn't mention better, just the option.[/B]
Aren't these statements inconsistent with each other? The first statement is obviously implicit in this thread, and I disagree with your implicit assertion that windows key mapping is better (by EXPLICITLY asking Apple to implement them), even if your sole rationale for this is that "it is the standard." Standard does necessarily equal better.
Originally posted by sandau
that's not the point, it should just work.
I would have had less of a problem with your statement if instead of saying "it should just work" or Apple should do it the way that 99% of computers are used to you said something like "Apple should let users customize the OS to make the transition easier for Windows users".
First, it does work, but not the way it works in Windows. The real problem may be your inability to accept that OS X is not Windows. If so, get over it and learn how to use OS X and judge it on its own merits. If you can't do that or decide that Ctrl-V is better than Command-V (a useless distinction between the OSes if there ever was one), then choose whatever works best for you (ie Windows).
As Chucker said, just because 99% do it one way in an of itself is not sufficient reason to do something a certain way. Another example of "the OS X way is wrong because it doesn't work like the Windows OS that I'm used to", read my comments in response to the article "Switching from Windows to Mac" here
The article basically complains that OS X doesn't work like Windows. Way to state the obvious.
Originally posted by sandau
I suppose you don't use right click either? Somehow that got built in back in Jaguar I believe...same thing.
That was Mac OS 8. 1997.
And for what it's worth, no, I barely use it. It's usually a sign of bad UI design.
Originally posted by sandau
All I want from Leopard is:
Windows shortcut key mappings. 1 click setting in the preference pane.
If that was added it would be enough for me to say 'Upgrade' and this thing is worth the $129.
Apple key shortcuts SUCK when you work on both OS's, go with the friggin standard already. Ctrl+C Ctrl+V, Home, End, Arrows...just make them work. Just work. JUST WORK.
Yeah, i know there are third party options and remapping and suck like that but it should be a check box in the OS. Done.
thanks.
There's already a preference to switch Control and Command.
Originally posted by Placebo
There's already a preference to switch Control and Command.
1. Apple>System Preferences>Keyboard & Mouse>Modifier Keys, then change Command key to whatever you want. Are you referring to this, Placebo? If so, you owe Apple $129 Sandau.
Most PC users that are new to OS X just assume that you can't do this or that on OS X before they bother to really try to learn the operating system. For instance, if you want to know whether shortcut keys can be changed go to the Keyboard preference pane and find out.
2. And with all of the problems that Apple can address with Leopard, I'm sure Windows shortcut mapping is #1 on their list, right ahead of improving the finder.
3. Placebo's post pretty much made this thread useless/moot.
My view on it is... if you want it to be JUST LIKE WINDOWS... then USE WINDOWS. Cripes.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Cue whining about Maximize vs. Zoom...
My view on it is... if you want it to be JUST LIKE WINDOWS... then USE WINDOWS. Cripes.
I've read your posts on that thread and I agree 100% with you, Kickaha. So I say to all of these Windows users that want the maximize buttons to work like XP, who want keyborad shortcuts to be the same as XP, who want the system preferences to be like Windows Explorer, who want the menu bar not to be at the top but on the top of each application window, who want the close button to quit the application instead of closing that one window...etc etc etc..this is not Windows XP. Windows users are used to the behavior of the Maximize (make the application full screen) and want that behavior replicated on OS X not because this is necessarily a good UI design (I'm on the side that thinks that it isn't for all of the reasons stated by Kickaha in the thread mentioned above), but simply because this is what they are used to.
Switching from XP to OS X involves learning and unlearning: learning how OS X works, and unlearning XP (or at least letting go of the expectation that OS X should work exactly like XP). It is not that hard. It took me about two weeks.
Originally posted by Neruda
Switching from XP to OS X involves learning and unlearning: learning how OS X works, and unlearning XP (or at least letting go of the expectation that OS X should work exactly like XP). It is not that hard. It took me about two weeks.
Some things make sense though; if I can have an option to slow-down the Genie Effect (totally useless), then I should have the option to maximize my windows as much as I want (in this case, fullscreen). It doesn't have to be the default behaviour, just something that is available for those that want it.
Every person that's against more choice uses the argument of 'bad UI design', but that's not necessarily true because if I ask any of you what great UI design you have done to be able to so expertly judge something to be 'bad UI design', then you'll most likely draw a blank. But you're the first to say that it isn't possible 'because it's bad UI design.'
Nobody's asking for maximize to be the default option. Heck, even hide it from System Preferences. But give people something, anything, to make it easier for them to transition without having to adjust to something that's as arbitrary as maximize (zoom). When you want a bigger chunk of the market, you have to adjust to the market - the market doesn't adjust to you.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
if I ask any of you what great UI design you have done to be able to so expertly judge something to be 'bad UI design', then you'll most likely draw a blank. But you're the first to say that it isn't possible 'because it's bad UI design.'
Hate to point out the obvious, but the U in UI stands for user, and as a user of both XP and OS X, it is my opinion that maximizing a window to full-screen is useless and not a good UI behavior. I don't have to be a GUI engineer to have an opinion on this, just like designing an OS is not a prerequisite to forming the opinion that the OS X GUI is overall far superior that XP's. I won't bother to give any reasons for the maximizing issue here since (1) all of the pros and cons have already been discussed ad naseum on your other thread (2) I already know where you stand on this.
Nobody's asking for maximize to be the default option. Heck, even hide it from System Preferences. But give people something, anything, to make it easier for them to transition without having to adjust to something that's as arbitrary as maximize (zoom).[/B]
Agreed about giving users the option to customize this (as OS 9 did).
When you want a bigger chunk of the market, you have to adjust to the market - the market doesn't adjust to you. [/B]
1. I have read rumors that Leopard will do just that (doing away with the menu bar and placing it on top of application windows, ect, for example), but I hope that if Apple does adapt to all of the switchers/new users it does so without compromising what makes OS X better than XP. Apple walks on a tightrope between the two considerations. But I agree with you that you should be able to customize the OS to your heart's content, others would disagree.
2. Maybe the one failing to adjust is you and others like you that keep insisting that XP GUI behaviors be implemented on OS X. Now to be fair, there are certain XP behaviors that I would like to see in OS X because they do make more sense, but where should Apple stop to please you? If it were up to you OS X would end up looking and acting exactly like Windows and what would be the point of that? If I wanted to use XP I would use XP. If you want to use OS X and you want a window to fill the whole screen, size it to fill the whole screen. And while your doing that, ask Apple to place resize handles on more than one corner of a window (this is better, IMO, let the debate pro & con on this begin
Originally posted by lundy
Have you lost your mind? APPLE was first with command-x, command-c, and command-v for Cut, Copy, and Paste.
It was the CRIMINAL BILL GATES who, not having a Command key on his PC-clone keyboards, had the bright idea (read: only choice) to use the Control key instead.
And guess what keys the CRIMINAL BILL GATES just happened to RANDOMLY CHOOSE for Cut, Copy, and Paste? Why x,c and v of course.
Screw him. Screw Windows.
Apple designed it first on the Mac and they have NO obligation to "make it like Windows". Sheesh.
Exactly.
I do think that I'd prefer the command key to be used for system events and other cross platform meta keys for application events though. I would have no objection to using ctrl-c etc and I do in some open source apps.
Nonetheless, I really think Apple needs some sort of keymapping software built into the system. Like being able to assign automator actions or scripts to function keys.
Originally posted by Neruda
1. I have read rumors that Leopard will do just that (doing away with the menu bar and placing it on top of application windows, ect, for example)
[Darth Vader]NNOOOOOOOOO!!!!!![/Darth Vader]
I would seriously hurt someone. Or pray that a program comes out to put it back right.
Originally posted by Neruda
1. I have read rumors that Leopard will do just that (doing away with the menu bar and placing it on top of application windows, ect, for example)
I would doubt that. The menu bar comes into Apple's interface guidelines and the reason it is there is because there is a rule that menu items should be placed somewhere with the largest amount of horizontal space.
If they are placed in windows, a small window means you cut off the menu items, which is crazy because you have to resize the window, choose a menu item and resize it again and it's not like the maximize button would help you here.
Plus where do they put the date and spotlight and all the control panel items? In the dock?