The only reason to have a $999 tower is to attempt to gain share where Dell is strongest and where direct comparisons leave Apple looking overpriced AND bland.
if apple can offer a competitive (and successful!) laptop as the macbook at $1100, im sure they would be able to put together a $1000 desktop without looking too silly compared with the competition...?
Quick question please - are you arguing from what you think is right for apple, or what you think SJ thinks is right for apple? Are they the same thing?
Perhaps the middle ground here is a more expandable iMac -> conroe, 23" screen better graphics, more ram & would you be able to get a bigger HDD?
There is a gap in the market - but it may not be important to SJ/Apple
I currently only use my 17" MBP butI want something faster & with a bigger screen for aperture & all my music & videos. I also work with lots of windows open - so having another screen is nice - ideally would like the 30" ACD but the iMac doesn't support. The MP is really overkill for me but there is nothing else from Apple! I am aware though that I am not perhaps the typical computer user!
Yes, because price, form factor and expandibility is one advantage.
Not price, because as I already pointed out, there's barely a difference in price at all between a dual-core mini and a MacBook when you add a monitor and keyboard/mouse.
Form factor is a disadvantage to everyone except for the tiny niche of people using a mini as a DVR, a purpose it's not really well-suited to handle anyway. Have fun trying to add HDMI ports to the mini - oh wait, you can't because it has no slots. Anyway, for everyone else, it's the same thing as a laptop, but it's not portable!
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Nope. But then I'm not dead set on my position where I need to twists words to defend my opinion.
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Neither repetition of assertion nor big fonts makes your argument any more compelling. It simply makes you look like you can't put together a coherent point.
At this point, I don't care how compelling I'm being, because I'm obviously arguing with a brick wall.
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The only reason to have a $999 tower is to attempt to gain share where Dell is strongest and where direct comparisons leave Apple looking overpriced AND bland.
We've been over this already, and besides, snoopy addressed this very well. How convenient that you completely ignored his post.
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Why not? They are stylish and underserved. Perhaps a UMPC instead.
Because they don't sell for shit?
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You have an odd sense of "necessity". No computer is a "necessity"...certainly not a Mac. It's a nicety. You claim to know what its like to live frugally but still claim that Macs are a necessity.
It is a necessity if you need it to do your job, now isn't it? God!
Arguing that you don't need a computer in this day and age...
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And you can buy a mid-tower from any number of vendors and its compatible with your peripherals and has equivalents for all the software you want. Not quite as nice ones perhaps but your mid-range power amplifier isn't as clean as an audiophile one either.
You might find one or two titles with zero PC equivlalents but thats a rarity.
ARGH!
Please write this 100 times on the blackboard:
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
I just can't take it anymore. I keep pointing this out over and over, and I don't know whether you are deliberately doing this to be irritating or whether you really are that stupid, but I can't take it anymore. I'm adding appleinsider.com to my /etc/hosts file for a while, because if I keep having to read this idiocy I will end up jumping off of a $@#%ing bridge. Good day.
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
Ok. the three most important performance upgrades are, in no particular order:
Processor
VPU
RAM
Those three bits alone determine, at least for me, the computer's longevity.
Built in Hard drives are usually upgradable. Opticle drives too, on occasion. The next on the list of desired options then would be a PCIe slot. or even just an express 54.. or was it 56... whatever. you get my point. add those three and maybe the fourth thing, and you have an excelent gap filler. Any computer that you get today aught to suit your needs now. If you need more HD you can go the (bit more expensive) route of external HD, but you still have the expandability. The main complaints that make a computer seem old, to me, are:
New OS is running slow -- Processor+RAM
New Games are running slow -- Processor, RAM, VPU
New software takes up too much room -- new HD, toss the old one in an enclosure
Don't have that nifty new USB 8.5 -- ExpressBus or PCMCIA card
No built in GPS -- why the heck do you need GPS on your iMac?
Um.... I don't know where I am? -- Ask your neighbor
Its Dirty -- Give it a bath
Stopped working when I gave it a bath -- OMG, you didn't think I was serious did you?
I just can't take it anymore. I keep pointing this out over and over, and I don't know whether you are deliberately doing this to be irritating or whether you really are that stupid, but I can't take it anymore. I'm adding appleinsider.com to my /etc/hosts file for a while, because if I keep having to read this idiocy I will end up jumping off of a $@#%ing bridge. Good day.
I just can't take it anymore. I keep pointing this out over and over, and I don't know whether you are deliberately doing this to be irritating or whether you really are that stupid, but I can't take it anymore. I'm adding appleinsider.com to my /etc/hosts file for a while, because if I keep having to read this idiocy I will end up jumping off of a $@#%ing bridge. Good day.
The doctor is in. Advice, 5 cents!
I'm convinced that some people will never gave up an argument. Right or wrong? I don't know, but it helps me not take things too seriously. Also, when I reply, I think mostly about undecided folks who are trying to make up their minds. Short replies help too. I don't get exhausted.
Perhaps the middle ground here is a more expandable iMac -> conroe, 23" screen better graphics, more ram & would you be able to get a bigger HDD?
That makes a better iMac, but addresses none of the problems. I hate to use car analogies, but its like offering a BMW 7 series when the person really wants and needs is a F-150;
That makes a better iMac, but addresses none of the problems. I hate to use car analogies, but its like offering a BMW 7 series when the person really wants and needs is a F-150;
The problem is both sides of this argument both can't be right - one side will be proved wrong/disappointed & there may have to be a compromise.
At present there is a big gap in the apple desktop range & they can either
1. Ignore it & say it isn't affecting their business plan
2. Expand the iMac to fill it - 23 & even 30" versions
3. Produce an Appelised 'mini-tower' or something similar/new
The choice is Apple's obviously, though we will all have opinions as to which is best for both our individual needs and for Apple's vision.
Sorry for the late reply to this, but Apple would not be competing head to head with Dell on a mini tower. Again, it's whether each Mac must compete with like models in PC land, or whether Apple is simply competing with all Windows PCs with the Mac platform in general. It should be obvious that it's the Mac platform that competes with Windows. Individual Mac models competes for the attention of Mac buyers, not Windows buyers.
True. However, it appears that it is Apple wishes to compete the platform on its own terms, not across the board.
I don't say that I necessarily agree or disagree with their strategy but there must be some reason that they choose not to offer a mid-tower other than stupidity.
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If Apple did that, then they would indeed be "going head on against one of the toughest PC competitors in one of the areas they are strongest in," as you say. But Apple isn't crazy, and that's not the way they would sell a mini tower. A Mac mini tower would sell because it runs Mac OS X. A Windows mini tower sells because it runs the Windows OS.
How many way must we demonstrate this issues? Here is yet another way. Today, in the low and middle desktop market, Apple offers the Mac Mini and iMac, two models. Now for some reason people have a problem with Apple offering a third model, a Mac mini tower. "It won't sell," they say, "because Window mini towers are so much cheaper."
My perception is that a $999 mini-tower would cannibalize iMac sales to the point that you might as well not offer the iMac and that appears to be the main sticking point with Apple. That's based on observation of past behavior.
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Let's examine this logic. Today, some Windows users are switching to a Mac desktop in the low or middle price range, and must buy either a Mini or iMac. Now, if these same folks had a third option, a mini tower, you are essentially saying these switchers will ignore it, simply because a Window equivalent sells for less. Would someone care to explain this twisted logic to the rest of us? I'm sure the flame throwers are standing by.
No, I'm saying that a $999 or $1299 mid ranged tower can be (more) directly compared against a Dell tower allowing Dell to do the same thing Apple did with the Mac Pro...show that they are the lower cost solution. This reinforces the perception that Apple's are overpriced despite often being a good value.
The iMac is less susceptible to this kind of direct comparison because its a different form factor. Likewise the mini. The counter to that kind of argument is "the form factor is different and compact form factors are always more costly". Laptops are more competitive as is the Mac Pro. A $1599 Mac Pro is an inexpensive workstation class and can't be easily compared to a $799 tower including 17" LCD monitor w/free shipping and 1 MB RAM upgrade.
I don't believe that OSX is perceived to be a great enough equalizer.
Will switchers ignore a $999 mac tower? No, I don't think so. I think both switchers and current customers would choose it over the iMac as it represents better value. The question for Apple is whether the volume of switchers increases sufficiently to offset their perceived negatives for offering a mini-tower in that price range.
These include marginalization of the iMac line, reduced LCD panel sales, reduced control over the deployment of iSight (although they could bundle it), increased price comparison, potential cannibalization of the Mac Pro line, etc.
/shrug
I dunno the exact reason why they aren't offering a mid-tower. Perhaps they will but they have been resistant in the past. Perhaps with the Conroe they have enough differentiation with their pro lines but I still see iMac cannibaliztion as the sticking point for them.
Simply saying that the iMac deserves to die if that happens ignores the potential desires of the guy in charge.
Not price, because as I already pointed out, there's barely a difference in price at all between a dual-core mini and a MacBook when you add a monitor and keyboard/mouse.
You use the core solo to show that it's less powerful than the macbook. The corresponding advantage is the smaller price.
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Form factor is a disadvantage to everyone except for the tiny niche of people using a mini as a DVR, a purpose it's not really well-suited to handle anyway. Have fun trying to add HDMI ports to the mini - oh wait, you can't because it has no slots. Anyway, for everyone else, it's the same thing as a laptop, but it's not portable!
DVI to HDMI converters are available. Inputs are typically firewire or cablecard which the mini does lack.
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At this point, I don't care how compelling I'm being, because I'm obviously arguing with a brick wall.
Then don't expect to change anyone's opinion. I don't know why you find it so important to get that last 10% difference in our positions to converge.
We agree that mid-towers are a better value than a AIO.
We agree that mid-towers would better serve some (or all) iMac users and users in general.
We agree that a $1699 Mac Pro is likely and a $1499 Mac Pro possible (but IMHO far less likely).
So where do we disagree?
The last $200-$500 and whether or not Jobs will protect his AIO line.
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We've been over this already, and besides, snoopy addressed this very well. How convenient that you completely ignored his post.
I didn't ignore it, I simply hadn't gotten around to replying yet. This isn't a job you know...just an amusing diversion.
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Because they don't sell for shit?
They don't sell for shit today.
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It is a necessity if you need it to do your job, now isn't it? God!
Arguing that you don't need a computer in this day and age...
The number of folks that require OSX to do their jobs are fairly small. The folks that require OSX to do their jobs and can't be served by an existing Mac even smaller.
Owning a computer at home is not a requirement. Its a luxury. While it provides competitive advantages in school typically you can use the school lab. For those colleges that require a laptop, should you be economically disadvantaged they typically offer financial help.
In any case, a laptop is likely a better selection there.
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ARGH!
Please write this 100 times on the blackboard:
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
You assert that a mac is required by everyone despite the clear evidence in the marketshare that it is not. I'm refuting that assertion. If you don't like it, don't make such easily refutable assertions.
So no, that particular argument was NOT about what is best for Apple as a company but what you say to support your position.
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I just can't take it anymore. I keep pointing this out over and over, and I don't know whether you are deliberately doing this to be irritating or whether you really are that stupid, but I can't take it anymore. I'm adding appleinsider.com to my /etc/hosts file for a while, because if I keep having to read this idiocy I will end up jumping off of a $@#%ing bridge. Good day.
Buh bye. Next time don't take a forum so seriously that you pop a vein because someone doesn't completely agree with you or allow you to make unfounded assertions.
That makes a better iMac, but addresses none of the problems. I hate to use car analogies, but its like offering a BMW 7 series when the person really wants and needs is a F-150;
So don't buy from BMW. Problem solved. Just don't whine that your F-150 doesn't have custom leather seats and drives like a pickup rather than a BMW.
That makes a better iMac, but addresses none of the problems. I hate to use car analogies, but its like offering a BMW 7 series when the person really wants and needs is a F-150;
Again, nothing is stopping you from buying a computer from a different brand, whether it's Gateway eMachines, Acer, Dell or Sony Vaio.
No, "but they don't run Mac OS X" is not a valid argument. An F-150 won't ship with a BMW engine either. You could try hacking it on, but likewise, you can try hacking Mac OS X to run on your Vaio.
Oh PLEASE. You can't seriously tell me that those sharp young fellows over at Pixar couldn't make due with a slide rule and an abacus, can you?
If you need a computer to do your job then you need a computer to do your job.
We were discussing whether a computer is a required in every home as basic necessity at the same level as food, clothing and shelter especially by folks living on minimum wage.
Since its hard to argue that it is a basic necessity of life CharlesS switches to a discussion of whether its required at work. Hopefully the guys at Pixar are making more than minimum wage and the company gets a good ROI on their computer purchases. Mmmm...I'm going to guess yes...
Again, I'm wondering why you think it would be a bad decision for Apple to release a mid range tower. Is it because you feel it would cananbalize sales from existing Mac models or becaus it would compare unfavorable with mid range machine from pc vendors like Dell?
My perception is that a $999 mini-tower would cannibalize iMac sales to the point that you might as well not offer the iMac and that appears to be the main sticking point with Apple. That's based on observation of past behavior.
I'm thinking more like $1499 for the standard model. Let me put it this way, are you willing to loose 2-3 prosumer sales to the windows or secondhand markets for every one iMac you retain? They are for two different markets. For every person who is willing to grudgingly buy the all in one, a couple more and going to decide it isn’t worth the hassle.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
Again, nothing is stopping you from buying a computer from a different brand, whether it's Gateway eMachines, Acer, Dell or Sony Vaio.
No, "but they don't run Mac OS X" is not a valid argument. An F-150 won't ship with a BMW engine either. You could try hacking it on, but likewise, you can try hacking Mac OS X to run on your Vaio.
Right chucker, losing the platform veterans is such a good strategy. Instead of expanding the platform, lets chase the impure away. I could buy something else, but I'd rather give Apple my money. I'm not wasting time on an all in one and there is no way I'm buying a workstation.
Again, I'm wondering why you think it would be a bad decision for Apple to release a mid range tower. Is it because you feel it would cananbalize sales from existing Mac models or becaus it would compare unfavorable with mid range machine from pc vendors like Dell?
Because Steve says it isn't and he is never wrong.
Right chucker, losing the platform veterans is such a good strategy. Instead of expanding the platform, lets chase the impure away. I could buy something else, but I'd rather give Apple my money. I'm not wasting time on an all in one and there is no way I'm buying a workstation.
Guess what? Apple market share is on the rise, and has been for about two years now. You may feel their strategy is flawed, and I'm sure it's imperfect, but statistics sure would disagree with your assertion.
I'd rather not see a midrange headless Mac. Why not? Because I don't want to see Apple go down the same road other PC manufacturing brands did. Remember when IBM still sold PCs? Didn't think so.
Guess what? Apple market share is on the rise, and has been for about two years now. You may feel their strategy is flawed, and I'm sure it's imperfect, but statistics sure would disagree with your assertion.
I'd rather not see a midrange headless Mac. Why not? Because I don't want to see Apple go down the same road other PC manufacturing brands did. Remember when IBM still sold PCs? Didn't think so.
0.3%, what a meteoric rise. Then again, 5% is much better than say 10.
If you need a computer to do your job then you need a computer to do your job.
We were discussing whether a computer is a required in every home as basic necessity at the same level as food, clothing and shelter especially by folks living on minimum wage.
Since its hard to argue that it is a basic necessity of life CharlesS switches to a discussion of whether its required at work. Hopefully the guys at Pixar are making more than minimum wage and the company gets a good ROI on their computer purchases. Mmmm...I'm going to guess yes...
Vinea
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you can tell I'm just playing devil's advocate for the sake of comedy.
Comments
The only reason to have a $999 tower is to attempt to gain share where Dell is strongest and where direct comparisons leave Apple looking overpriced AND bland.
if apple can offer a competitive (and successful!) laptop as the macbook at $1100, im sure they would be able to put together a $1000 desktop without looking too silly compared with the competition...?
edit: sppeelling
Quick question please - are you arguing from what you think is right for apple, or what you think SJ thinks is right for apple? Are they the same thing?
Perhaps the middle ground here is a more expandable iMac -> conroe, 23" screen better graphics, more ram & would you be able to get a bigger HDD?
There is a gap in the market - but it may not be important to SJ/Apple
I currently only use my 17" MBP butI want something faster & with a bigger screen for aperture & all my music & videos. I also work with lots of windows open - so having another screen is nice - ideally would like the 30" ACD but the iMac doesn't support. The MP is really overkill for me but there is nothing else from Apple! I am aware though that I am not perhaps the typical computer user!
Yes, because price, form factor and expandibility is one advantage.
Not price, because as I already pointed out, there's barely a difference in price at all between a dual-core mini and a MacBook when you add a monitor and keyboard/mouse.
Form factor is a disadvantage to everyone except for the tiny niche of people using a mini as a DVR, a purpose it's not really well-suited to handle anyway. Have fun trying to add HDMI ports to the mini - oh wait, you can't because it has no slots. Anyway, for everyone else, it's the same thing as a laptop, but it's not portable!
Nope. But then I'm not dead set on my position where I need to twists words to defend my opinion.
Neither repetition of assertion nor big fonts makes your argument any more compelling. It simply makes you look like you can't put together a coherent point.
At this point, I don't care how compelling I'm being, because I'm obviously arguing with a brick wall.
The only reason to have a $999 tower is to attempt to gain share where Dell is strongest and where direct comparisons leave Apple looking overpriced AND bland.
We've been over this already, and besides, snoopy addressed this very well. How convenient that you completely ignored his post.
Why not? They are stylish and underserved. Perhaps a UMPC instead.
Because they don't sell for shit?
You have an odd sense of "necessity". No computer is a "necessity"...certainly not a Mac. It's a nicety. You claim to know what its like to live frugally but still claim that Macs are a necessity.
It is a necessity if you need it to do your job, now isn't it? God!
Arguing that you don't need a computer in this day and age...
And you can buy a mid-tower from any number of vendors and its compatible with your peripherals and has equivalents for all the software you want. Not quite as nice ones perhaps but your mid-range power amplifier isn't as clean as an audiophile one either.
You might find one or two titles with zero PC equivlalents but thats a rarity.
ARGH!
Please write this 100 times on the blackboard:
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
I just can't take it anymore. I keep pointing this out over and over, and I don't know whether you are deliberately doing this to be irritating or whether you really are that stupid, but I can't take it anymore. I'm adding appleinsider.com to my /etc/hosts file for a while, because if I keep having to read this idiocy I will end up jumping off of a $@#%ing bridge. Good day.
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
stop with the repeating lines, you made me think my computer crashed!
Ok. the three most important performance upgrades are, in no particular order:
Processor
VPU
RAM
Those three bits alone determine, at least for me, the computer's longevity.
Built in Hard drives are usually upgradable. Opticle drives too, on occasion. The next on the list of desired options then would be a PCIe slot. or even just an express 54.. or was it 56... whatever. you get my point. add those three and maybe the fourth thing, and you have an excelent gap filler. Any computer that you get today aught to suit your needs now. If you need more HD you can go the (bit more expensive) route of external HD, but you still have the expandability. The main complaints that make a computer seem old, to me, are:
New OS is running slow -- Processor+RAM
New Games are running slow -- Processor, RAM, VPU
New software takes up too much room -- new HD, toss the old one in an enclosure
Don't have that nifty new USB 8.5 -- ExpressBus or PCMCIA card
No built in GPS -- why the heck do you need GPS on your iMac?
Um.... I don't know where I am? -- Ask your neighbor
Its Dirty -- Give it a bath
Stopped working when I gave it a bath -- OMG, you didn't think I was serious did you?
Yeah I did -- And the MacDarwin Award goes to...
It is a necessity if you need it to do your job, now isn't it? God!
Oh PLEASE. You can't seriously tell me that those sharp young fellows over at Pixar couldn't make due with a slide rule and an abacus, can you?
I just can't take it anymore. I keep pointing this out over and over, and I don't know whether you are deliberately doing this to be irritating or whether you really are that stupid, but I can't take it anymore. I'm adding appleinsider.com to my /etc/hosts file for a while, because if I keep having to read this idiocy I will end up jumping off of a $@#%ing bridge. Good day.
Quote of the Day.
I just can't take it anymore. I keep pointing this out over and over, and I don't know whether you are deliberately doing this to be irritating or whether you really are that stupid, but I can't take it anymore. I'm adding appleinsider.com to my /etc/hosts file for a while, because if I keep having to read this idiocy I will end up jumping off of a $@#%ing bridge. Good day.
The doctor is in. Advice, 5 cents!
I'm convinced that some people will never gave up an argument. Right or wrong? I don't know, but it helps me not take things too seriously. Also, when I reply, I think mostly about undecided folks who are trying to make up their minds. Short replies help too. I don't get exhausted.
Just my way to cope. The doctor is out now.
Perhaps the middle ground here is a more expandable iMac -> conroe, 23" screen better graphics, more ram & would you be able to get a bigger HDD?
That makes a better iMac, but addresses none of the problems. I hate to use car analogies, but its like offering a BMW 7 series when the person really wants and needs is a F-150;
That makes a better iMac, but addresses none of the problems. I hate to use car analogies, but its like offering a BMW 7 series when the person really wants and needs is a F-150;
The problem is both sides of this argument both can't be right - one side will be proved wrong/disappointed & there may have to be a compromise.
At present there is a big gap in the apple desktop range & they can either
1. Ignore it & say it isn't affecting their business plan
2. Expand the iMac to fill it - 23 & even 30" versions
3. Produce an Appelised 'mini-tower' or something similar/new
The choice is Apple's obviously, though we will all have opinions as to which is best for both our individual needs and for Apple's vision.
Time will obviously tell
Sorry for the late reply to this, but Apple would not be competing head to head with Dell on a mini tower. Again, it's whether each Mac must compete with like models in PC land, or whether Apple is simply competing with all Windows PCs with the Mac platform in general. It should be obvious that it's the Mac platform that competes with Windows. Individual Mac models competes for the attention of Mac buyers, not Windows buyers.
True. However, it appears that it is Apple wishes to compete the platform on its own terms, not across the board.
I don't say that I necessarily agree or disagree with their strategy but there must be some reason that they choose not to offer a mid-tower other than stupidity.
If Apple did that, then they would indeed be "going head on against one of the toughest PC competitors in one of the areas they are strongest in," as you say. But Apple isn't crazy, and that's not the way they would sell a mini tower. A Mac mini tower would sell because it runs Mac OS X. A Windows mini tower sells because it runs the Windows OS.
How many way must we demonstrate this issues? Here is yet another way. Today, in the low and middle desktop market, Apple offers the Mac Mini and iMac, two models. Now for some reason people have a problem with Apple offering a third model, a Mac mini tower. "It won't sell," they say, "because Window mini towers are so much cheaper."
My perception is that a $999 mini-tower would cannibalize iMac sales to the point that you might as well not offer the iMac and that appears to be the main sticking point with Apple. That's based on observation of past behavior.
Let's examine this logic. Today, some Windows users are switching to a Mac desktop in the low or middle price range, and must buy either a Mini or iMac. Now, if these same folks had a third option, a mini tower, you are essentially saying these switchers will ignore it, simply because a Window equivalent sells for less. Would someone care to explain this twisted logic to the rest of us? I'm sure the flame throwers are standing by.
No, I'm saying that a $999 or $1299 mid ranged tower can be (more) directly compared against a Dell tower allowing Dell to do the same thing Apple did with the Mac Pro...show that they are the lower cost solution. This reinforces the perception that Apple's are overpriced despite often being a good value.
The iMac is less susceptible to this kind of direct comparison because its a different form factor. Likewise the mini. The counter to that kind of argument is "the form factor is different and compact form factors are always more costly". Laptops are more competitive as is the Mac Pro. A $1599 Mac Pro is an inexpensive workstation class and can't be easily compared to a $799 tower including 17" LCD monitor w/free shipping and 1 MB RAM upgrade.
I don't believe that OSX is perceived to be a great enough equalizer.
Will switchers ignore a $999 mac tower? No, I don't think so. I think both switchers and current customers would choose it over the iMac as it represents better value. The question for Apple is whether the volume of switchers increases sufficiently to offset their perceived negatives for offering a mini-tower in that price range.
These include marginalization of the iMac line, reduced LCD panel sales, reduced control over the deployment of iSight (although they could bundle it), increased price comparison, potential cannibalization of the Mac Pro line, etc.
/shrug
I dunno the exact reason why they aren't offering a mid-tower. Perhaps they will but they have been resistant in the past. Perhaps with the Conroe they have enough differentiation with their pro lines but I still see iMac cannibaliztion as the sticking point for them.
Simply saying that the iMac deserves to die if that happens ignores the potential desires of the guy in charge.
Vinea
7
Not price, because as I already pointed out, there's barely a difference in price at all between a dual-core mini and a MacBook when you add a monitor and keyboard/mouse.
You use the core solo to show that it's less powerful than the macbook. The corresponding advantage is the smaller price.
Form factor is a disadvantage to everyone except for the tiny niche of people using a mini as a DVR, a purpose it's not really well-suited to handle anyway. Have fun trying to add HDMI ports to the mini - oh wait, you can't because it has no slots. Anyway, for everyone else, it's the same thing as a laptop, but it's not portable!
DVI to HDMI converters are available. Inputs are typically firewire or cablecard which the mini does lack.
At this point, I don't care how compelling I'm being, because I'm obviously arguing with a brick wall.
Then don't expect to change anyone's opinion. I don't know why you find it so important to get that last 10% difference in our positions to converge.
We agree that mid-towers are a better value than a AIO.
We agree that mid-towers would better serve some (or all) iMac users and users in general.
We agree that a $1699 Mac Pro is likely and a $1499 Mac Pro possible (but IMHO far less likely).
So where do we disagree?
The last $200-$500 and whether or not Jobs will protect his AIO line.
We've been over this already, and besides, snoopy addressed this very well. How convenient that you completely ignored his post.
I didn't ignore it, I simply hadn't gotten around to replying yet. This isn't a job you know...just an amusing diversion.
Because they don't sell for shit?
They don't sell for shit today.
It is a necessity if you need it to do your job, now isn't it? God!
Arguing that you don't need a computer in this day and age...
The number of folks that require OSX to do their jobs are fairly small. The folks that require OSX to do their jobs and can't be served by an existing Mac even smaller.
Owning a computer at home is not a requirement. Its a luxury. While it provides competitive advantages in school typically you can use the school lab. For those colleges that require a laptop, should you be economically disadvantaged they typically offer financial help.
In any case, a laptop is likely a better selection there.
ARGH!
Please write this 100 times on the blackboard:
This argument is about what is best for Apple as a company
You assert that a mac is required by everyone despite the clear evidence in the marketshare that it is not. I'm refuting that assertion. If you don't like it, don't make such easily refutable assertions.
So no, that particular argument was NOT about what is best for Apple as a company but what you say to support your position.
I just can't take it anymore. I keep pointing this out over and over, and I don't know whether you are deliberately doing this to be irritating or whether you really are that stupid, but I can't take it anymore. I'm adding appleinsider.com to my /etc/hosts file for a while, because if I keep having to read this idiocy I will end up jumping off of a $@#%ing bridge. Good day.
Buh bye. Next time don't take a forum so seriously that you pop a vein because someone doesn't completely agree with you or allow you to make unfounded assertions.
Vinea
That makes a better iMac, but addresses none of the problems. I hate to use car analogies, but its like offering a BMW 7 series when the person really wants and needs is a F-150;
So don't buy from BMW. Problem solved. Just don't whine that your F-150 doesn't have custom leather seats and drives like a pickup rather than a BMW.
Apologies to Mr. H.
Vinea
That makes a better iMac, but addresses none of the problems. I hate to use car analogies, but its like offering a BMW 7 series when the person really wants and needs is a F-150;
Again, nothing is stopping you from buying a computer from a different brand, whether it's Gateway eMachines, Acer, Dell or Sony Vaio.
No, "but they don't run Mac OS X" is not a valid argument. An F-150 won't ship with a BMW engine either. You could try hacking it on, but likewise, you can try hacking Mac OS X to run on your Vaio.
Oh PLEASE. You can't seriously tell me that those sharp young fellows over at Pixar couldn't make due with a slide rule and an abacus, can you?
If you need a computer to do your job then you need a computer to do your job.
We were discussing whether a computer is a required in every home as basic necessity at the same level as food, clothing and shelter especially by folks living on minimum wage.
Since its hard to argue that it is a basic necessity of life CharlesS switches to a discussion of whether its required at work. Hopefully the guys at Pixar are making more than minimum wage and the company gets a good ROI on their computer purchases. Mmmm...I'm going to guess yes...
Vinea
Again, I'm wondering why you think it would be a bad decision for Apple to release a mid range tower. Is it because you feel it would cananbalize sales from existing Mac models or becaus it would compare unfavorable with mid range machine from pc vendors like Dell?
My perception is that a $999 mini-tower would cannibalize iMac sales to the point that you might as well not offer the iMac and that appears to be the main sticking point with Apple. That's based on observation of past behavior.
I'm thinking more like $1499 for the standard model. Let me put it this way, are you willing to loose 2-3 prosumer sales to the windows or secondhand markets for every one iMac you retain? They are for two different markets. For every person who is willing to grudgingly buy the all in one, a couple more and going to decide it isn’t worth the hassle.
Again, nothing is stopping you from buying a computer from a different brand, whether it's Gateway eMachines, Acer, Dell or Sony Vaio.
No, "but they don't run Mac OS X" is not a valid argument. An F-150 won't ship with a BMW engine either. You could try hacking it on, but likewise, you can try hacking Mac OS X to run on your Vaio.
Right chucker, losing the platform veterans is such a good strategy. Instead of expanding the platform, lets chase the impure away. I could buy something else, but I'd rather give Apple my money. I'm not wasting time on an all in one and there is no way I'm buying a workstation.
Vinea,
Again, I'm wondering why you think it would be a bad decision for Apple to release a mid range tower. Is it because you feel it would cananbalize sales from existing Mac models or becaus it would compare unfavorable with mid range machine from pc vendors like Dell?
Because Steve says it isn't and he is never wrong.
Right chucker, losing the platform veterans is such a good strategy. Instead of expanding the platform, lets chase the impure away. I could buy something else, but I'd rather give Apple my money. I'm not wasting time on an all in one and there is no way I'm buying a workstation.
Guess what? Apple market share is on the rise, and has been for about two years now. You may feel their strategy is flawed, and I'm sure it's imperfect, but statistics sure would disagree with your assertion.
I'd rather not see a midrange headless Mac. Why not? Because I don't want to see Apple go down the same road other PC manufacturing brands did. Remember when IBM still sold PCs? Didn't think so.
Guess what? Apple market share is on the rise, and has been for about two years now. You may feel their strategy is flawed, and I'm sure it's imperfect, but statistics sure would disagree with your assertion.
I'd rather not see a midrange headless Mac. Why not? Because I don't want to see Apple go down the same road other PC manufacturing brands did. Remember when IBM still sold PCs? Didn't think so.
0.3%, what a meteoric rise. Then again, 5% is much better than say 10.
If you need a computer to do your job then you need a computer to do your job.
We were discussing whether a computer is a required in every home as basic necessity at the same level as food, clothing and shelter especially by folks living on minimum wage.
Since its hard to argue that it is a basic necessity of life CharlesS switches to a discussion of whether its required at work. Hopefully the guys at Pixar are making more than minimum wage and the company gets a good ROI on their computer purchases. Mmmm...I'm going to guess yes...
Vinea
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you can tell I'm just playing devil's advocate for the sake of comedy.