The only thing the poster "succeeded" in was proving ignorance.
Checky eh? Oh well. It's 2:21 - I'm too tired. Anyways you know what they say... ignorance is bliss. Well, not really. Bliss is a New Mac Pro 3GHz Quad processors with 2 TB of space. Ahhh. Bliss. 8) I'm too poor for bliss - I'll just have to go for satisfaction.
icFireball- When you can avoid personal attacks, you seem alright. But your posts are typically dull-witted and petty, and life is too short. Good luck to you.
icFireball- When you can avoid personal attacks, you seem alright. But your posts are typically dull-witted and petty, and life is too short. Good luck to you.
I just randomly noticed -- both of our number of posts contain the same numbers:
ok, I'm still not sure what I'm spamming but ok...
BTW this is how I figured this thread would go:
reply 1. Nice, congrats!
reply 2. Congratulation, that's a great machine!
reply 3. Hope you enjoy that MacBook pro!
Instead:
reply 1. You terrible human being.
reply 2. Bullshit you didn't get anything...you're spamming some nonexisting link that you posted..
reply 3. Look at his other posts...sometimes he says things in them and sometimes he asks questions...wow..definitely a spammer..
I'm not spamming. I worked hard got my MacBook Pro, I don't care if you do what I did...I'm just saying it's cool to finally have a MBP because I wanted one so much.
That's it.
No links, I didn't even post the site I did.. so get over it.
Welcome to the world of MLM. Now you know why Amway and Quixtar have such high fallout rates.
Interested parties can always be directed to different offeres and used as referals for those, even if not for the offer that originally sparked their interest.
Is there a prohibition against getting multiple MBPs in that offer? (NOBODY LOOK THAT UP, )
Beyond logic though, I recognize the thoughts and intent behind the post. Trust me on this. Stay sceptical, of course, but take it into consideration.
hah, I smell another program participant! Honestly, what it is that makes it spamish, is the enthusiasm with which the message is conveyed. It sounds like a sell. It's worded in such a way that it is clearly intended to generate excitement and curiosity. This is a classic MLM practice.
MLMs and other programs of that type of structure, which are frequently erroniously called pyramiding (go look up the FTCs definition of a pyramid scheme) do in fact work, under the condition that you do precisly as the program prescribes, and, most importantly, don't give up. The reason why they are unpopular, and have such a high mortality rate, is because they frequently ask people to do non-intuitive, or even illogical things, based on faith that the person will reap the reward at the end. People don't like doing illogical stuff, espeicially when it costs them time or money.
His original message is a subtle sell, based on the intent behind the posting.. note that he mentions to PM him if you want more info. That's the link. Playing with technicalities and barely staying within the bounds of the writen rules does not change the intent behind the act. And it is the intent which is criticised. For those without an inside perspective on this situation: Even if the poster himself cannot get another laptop, he may be able to use any referrals from people who PM him saying, "Wow, tell me all about it" in other programs, or, more likely, hand off those referrals to people whom he has already referred, hence helping his friends get their laptop too.
I doubt that his intent is malicious. Few people in the world can function in a giving fashion, as is needed in these programs, while having malicious intent at the same time. The tension tends to be obvious when a person's actions are misaligned with their intent.
Rather, its the classic human psycological trick of convincing ourselves that a partial or unproven truth is absolute fact, so that we may then evangilize the idea to others without violating our own sense of integrity. Watch out for the subconcious though, cause it maintains that little tiny seed of doubt, and it may come back to haunt you.
Anyway, to conclude the rambling, I think that most everyone would agree with me that the reason the original post is commonly percieved as SPAM is because:
1) it was unsolicited,
2) it conveys a message in a way designed to appeal to emotion rather than logic, a 'sell' in other words
3) the original poster DOES in fact leave a route open to recieve a refferal through PM from interested individuals (this is referred to as Fishing, as opposed to the practice of approaching people in malls and asking them in a more direct fashion, which is known as Spear Chucking), and
4) other people have already, in a much less subtle and inoffensive way, promoted the same program, and pissed off a ton of people in so doing.
il fine.
*edit* It is erroneous to assume that simply because a link is not provided in the text of any of the posts that the posts are not spam. The function of advertising is to raise awareness of and interest in a particular product or service. You don't have to tell the audience explicitly where to find the product or service, espcially in these days of google, and rampant popups and banner adds. The referral based advertising in this case is designed to make the audience more suceptible to the other forms of advertising, while still leaving open a route for the person making the word-of-mouth promotion to profit or benefit directly. The company itself doesn't care how the audience comes to participate in the program, whether by clicking on a banner or through a direct referral. I've heard it said that a person has to have 8-10 contacts with an idea or product before they decie to buy it, and they have to decide to buy it 3 times before they actually do.
il fine. again.
*edit 2* ha, just realized that you, blackwind, ARE the original poster. :P Threw me off when you referred to yourself as "This guy". Also, another possible motive for promoting such a program, even if there is no direct personal benefit, and even if any refferals that are recieved are not passed on to friends, is to asuage guilt and help the person to convince themselves that they really DO/DID have other people's interest in mind. In other words, to help solidify the belief that the program which they have just participated in was, in fact, morally right.
don't 'commonly confused with a pyramid scheme' me jk
anyhow, i fail to see how it is not a type of pyramid scheme. in order for more than only the people who get in early to actually receive an ibook, there would have to be an infinite number of people available to complete an offer. how is this not a pyramid scheme?
from FTC
Quote:
Pyramid schemes now come in so many forms that they may be difficult to recognize immediately. However, they all share one overriding characteristic. They promise consumers or investors large profits based primarily on recruiting others to join their program, not based on profits from any real investment or real sale of goods to the public.
don't 'commonly confused with a pyramid scheme' me jk
anyhow, i fail to see how it is not a type of pyramid scheme. in order for more than only the people who get in early to actually receive an ibook, there would have to be an infinite number of people available to complete an offer. how is this not a pyramid scheme?
from FTC
I'm a physics student. I get anal retentive about acuracy.
the line that separates a pyramid scheme from a legal MLM style business is very VERY fine, and can be easily and accidentally crossed. Bare in mind that pyramid schemes are illegal, and the FTC shuts them down quickly. Keep looking on the FTC web site, and you'll come across the 4 standards that they use to judge whether or not something is an illegal pyramid.
As far as the saturation argument goes, it's correct if we make the mistaken assumption that everyone who starts the program will finish it, that it takes every person who participates the same amount of time to complete, and that no one ever makes babies again.
The growth rate of Quixtar, arguably the largest MLM in North America, is currently less than the rate of people turning 18. So, for those who DO choose to participate in an MLM, there is, as of this time right now, still the oportunity to be sucessful at it. The real separating factor between those who complete and profit from such programs, and those who drop out at a loss, or at no gain, is, for all practical purposes, persistence, and mentally manipulating yourself.
I'm a physics student. I get anal retentive about acuracy.
nice jackassy way to say that you're right and i'm wrong
Quote:
the line that separates a pyramid scheme from a legal MLM style business is very VERY fine, and can be easily and accidentally crossed. Bare in mind that pyramid schemes are illegal, and the FTC shuts them down quickly. Keep looking on the FTC web site, and you'll come across the 4 standards that they use to judge whether or not something is an illegal pyramid.
As far as the saturation argument goes, it's correct if we make the mistaken assumption that everyone who starts the program will finish it, that it takes every person who participates the same amount of time to complete, and that no one ever makes babies again.
The growth rate of Quixtar, arguably the largest MLM in North America, is currently less than the rate of people turning 18. So, for those who DO choose to participate in an MLM, there is, as of this time right now, still the oportunity to be sucessful at it. The real separating factor between those who complete and profit from such programs, and those who drop out at a loss, or at no gain, is, for all practical purposes, persistence, and mentally manipulating yourself.
Of course it isn't illegal, bacause no one is paying cash. Me calling it a pyramid scheme is a way of saying that it operates on the same premis as one.
Here is the FTCs article on MLM vs. Pyramid Schemes. Decide for yourself which one it most closely resembles. Strictly speaking, it's neither, but the scammy websites' (those giving free Macs) intrinsic claims that we can all be running around with free computers is absolutely false.
As far as your simple dismissal of 'the saturation argument,' obviously not everyone completes it. What makes it dubious is that the company relies on getting free profits (service sign-up profits) in order to 'pay' the users higher up on the pyramid. This pyramid is different in that it probably won't collapse because it assumes that most people won't finish. If they did, the pyramid would fall in on itself.
The argument you should be making is that most referrels are never expecting to get a free widget themselves, but that they are signing up referrels to help out a friend.
in my experience, the main reason why people consider these pyramids, and why they are so unpopular, is that there's a bunch of people running around trying to get you to do something.
Interesting to note that this is probably the most fundamental challenge for people who do participate in an MLM. How do you sell stuff without selling stuff?
Then, once you figure that out, how do you NOT sell stuff while also not wasting oportunity?
Another fundamental problem is that (at least within Quixtar) those who do become successful tend to have the 'Business' switch permanently duct taped into the ON position. The separation between work and home tends to vanish, and they tend to acumulate and maintain only business related friendships. Friendships which, without the business connection to support them, end up proving themselves to be false.
Don't know if that applies to all MLM style programs, though I suspect that it does, to varying degrees.
Hmm. Not sure about the reliance on noncompletion. I don't know the details of the program, and that's a rather fine point (where do they break even?). My gut instinct tells me that in order to get the free merchandise, you complete a certain number, say 5, for example, of offers, each worth $x (so the value added by your participation is now 5*x) to the advertisers, and then get, say, 20 referrals, who each do .... hmmm... ok let me stop a second.
So, in order for the program to be totally self sufficient, and never operate at a loss, and not rely on people not completing, the cost to the program of the product that you recieve can be no more than 5*$x.
If it DOES count on people not completing, then the product could be worth more, say, 30*$x, supposing that half of your refferals complete, and half only complete half of the offers...
This is a very interesting point about these. I was looking about, and one I found was offering a Mac Mini, or, get this, $575 cash for finding 13 referrals. So, they're throwing a number out, and in order for them to break even, each referral would have to be worth $44. Seems like a lot for blockbuster to pay someone to recruit a trial membership, but I don't know for sure. But if from the 13 referrals (let's assume they are interested in scoring their own mini/cash), 3 manage to complete the offer (13 more referrals each), and 10 manage an average of 4 refferals each, that would be 92 completed offers (13 x 4 + 10 x 4) supporting $2300 in cash/merchandise, or $25 per refferal. This isn't a very accurate way of taking this apart, and since I've never been a serious student of math, I'm not sure how to figure this in a more comprehensive way. $25 per refferal still seems pretty high.
I would also argue that as the program continues, the non-completion rate becomes higher because of saturation.
Quote:
Anyway, I think it's rather a moot point. While this would make it decidely sketchy from an investors standpoint, in my experience, the main reason why people consider these pyramids, and why they are so unpopular, is that there's a bunch of people running around trying to get you to do something. Doesn't matter if its good for you, I've found most people just hate being told what to do.
true, we're all sick to death of advertising and something-for-nothing pitches.
Quote:
so.... um... Oh yeah. I'm saying that it is, on a technical basis, not a pyramid scheme, and you are saying that it fundamentally operates like one. So we're not disagreeing, and we're also not arguing.
Fair enough I think that the functioning of this sort of scheme/program/whatever is unethical, as opposed to a MLM program such as Longaberger baskets or what you said about Quixtar.
Fair enough I think that the functioning of this sort of scheme/program/whatever is unethical, as opposed to a MLM program such as Longaberger baskets or what you said about Quixtar.
<nod> due to the nature of the MLM style compensation plan, it's a very fine line. Even within the same fundamental program. For example, some groups in Quixtar operate in a decidely pyramidal fashion, which, if it were scrutinized by the FTC, would be very rapidly shut down. Others operate legitimately. It's very easy to cross over the line... and then back... and then over... and then back.... and then... you get the drift.
Comments
The only thing the poster "succeeded" in was proving ignorance.
Checky eh? Oh well. It's 2:21 - I'm too tired. Anyways you know what they say... ignorance is bliss. Well, not really. Bliss is a New Mac Pro 3GHz Quad processors with 2 TB of space. Ahhh. Bliss. 8) I'm too poor for bliss - I'll just have to go for satisfaction.
icFireball- When you can avoid personal attacks, you seem alright. But your posts are typically dull-witted and petty, and life is too short. Good luck to you.
I just randomly noticed -- both of our number of posts contain the same numbers:
669.
696.
Cosmic.
ok, I'm still not sure what I'm spamming but ok...
BTW this is how I figured this thread would go:
reply 1. Nice, congrats!
reply 2. Congratulation, that's a great machine!
reply 3. Hope you enjoy that MacBook pro!
Instead:
reply 1. You terrible human being.
reply 2. Bullshit you didn't get anything...you're spamming some nonexisting link that you posted..
reply 3. Look at his other posts...sometimes he says things in them and sometimes he asks questions...wow..definitely a spammer..
I'm not spamming. I worked hard got my MacBook Pro, I don't care if you do what I did...I'm just saying it's cool to finally have a MBP because I wanted one so much.
That's it.
No links, I didn't even post the site I did.. so get over it.
Welcome to the world of MLM. Now you know why Amway and Quixtar have such high fallout rates.
Thats not spam. He gains nothing by posting this. He is not asking for referals.
You can suggest it all you wan't but isn't your post spam?
I'd take the original post over yours anyday.
not asking, but definately hoping for them.
It's a method of attracting attention in hopes of generating curiosity. It IS an attempt to get referrals.
not asking, but definately hoping for them.
It's a method of attracting attention in hopes of generating curiosity. It IS an attempt to get referrals.
not if you already have a computer sir!
not asking, but definately hoping for them.
It's a method of attracting attention in hopes of generating curiosity. It IS an attempt to get referrals.
not if you already have a computer sir!
not if you already have a computer sir!
Interested parties can always be directed to different offeres and used as referals for those, even if not for the offer that originally sparked their interest.
Is there a prohibition against getting multiple MBPs in that offer? (NOBODY LOOK THAT UP,
Beyond logic though, I recognize the thoughts and intent behind the post. Trust me on this. Stay sceptical, of course, but take it into consideration.
and wow, still no referral link! this guy is definitely a spammer! :-)
Still...MBP is absolute awesomeness even if you're paying for it it's definitely worth it.
MLMs and other programs of that type of structure, which are frequently erroniously called pyramiding (go look up the FTCs definition of a pyramid scheme) do in fact work, under the condition that you do precisly as the program prescribes, and, most importantly, don't give up. The reason why they are unpopular, and have such a high mortality rate, is because they frequently ask people to do non-intuitive, or even illogical things, based on faith that the person will reap the reward at the end. People don't like doing illogical stuff, espeicially when it costs them time or money.
His original message is a subtle sell, based on the intent behind the posting.. note that he mentions to PM him if you want more info. That's the link. Playing with technicalities and barely staying within the bounds of the writen rules does not change the intent behind the act. And it is the intent which is criticised. For those without an inside perspective on this situation: Even if the poster himself cannot get another laptop, he may be able to use any referrals from people who PM him saying, "Wow, tell me all about it" in other programs, or, more likely, hand off those referrals to people whom he has already referred, hence helping his friends get their laptop too.
I doubt that his intent is malicious. Few people in the world can function in a giving fashion, as is needed in these programs, while having malicious intent at the same time. The tension tends to be obvious when a person's actions are misaligned with their intent.
Rather, its the classic human psycological trick of convincing ourselves that a partial or unproven truth is absolute fact, so that we may then evangilize the idea to others without violating our own sense of integrity. Watch out for the subconcious though, cause it maintains that little tiny seed of doubt, and it may come back to haunt you.
Anyway, to conclude the rambling, I think that most everyone would agree with me that the reason the original post is commonly percieved as SPAM is because:
1) it was unsolicited,
2) it conveys a message in a way designed to appeal to emotion rather than logic, a 'sell' in other words
3) the original poster DOES in fact leave a route open to recieve a refferal through PM from interested individuals (this is referred to as Fishing, as opposed to the practice of approaching people in malls and asking them in a more direct fashion, which is known as Spear Chucking), and
4) other people have already, in a much less subtle and inoffensive way, promoted the same program, and pissed off a ton of people in so doing.
il fine.
*edit* It is erroneous to assume that simply because a link is not provided in the text of any of the posts that the posts are not spam. The function of advertising is to raise awareness of and interest in a particular product or service. You don't have to tell the audience explicitly where to find the product or service, espcially in these days of google, and rampant popups and banner adds. The referral based advertising in this case is designed to make the audience more suceptible to the other forms of advertising, while still leaving open a route for the person making the word-of-mouth promotion to profit or benefit directly. The company itself doesn't care how the audience comes to participate in the program, whether by clicking on a banner or through a direct referral. I've heard it said that a person has to have 8-10 contacts with an idea or product before they decie to buy it, and they have to decide to buy it 3 times before they actually do.
il fine. again.
*edit 2* ha, just realized that you, blackwind, ARE the original poster. :P Threw me off when you referred to yourself as "This guy".
anyhow, i fail to see how it is not a type of pyramid scheme. in order for more than only the people who get in early to actually receive an ibook, there would have to be an infinite number of people available to complete an offer. how is this not a pyramid scheme?
from FTC
Pyramid schemes now come in so many forms that they may be difficult to recognize immediately. However, they all share one overriding characteristic. They promise consumers or investors large profits based primarily on recruiting others to join their program, not based on profits from any real investment or real sale of goods to the public.
don't 'commonly confused with a pyramid scheme' me
anyhow, i fail to see how it is not a type of pyramid scheme. in order for more than only the people who get in early to actually receive an ibook, there would have to be an infinite number of people available to complete an offer. how is this not a pyramid scheme?
from FTC
I'm a physics student. I get anal retentive about acuracy.
the line that separates a pyramid scheme from a legal MLM style business is very VERY fine, and can be easily and accidentally crossed. Bare in mind that pyramid schemes are illegal, and the FTC shuts them down quickly. Keep looking on the FTC web site, and you'll come across the 4 standards that they use to judge whether or not something is an illegal pyramid.
As far as the saturation argument goes, it's correct if we make the mistaken assumption that everyone who starts the program will finish it, that it takes every person who participates the same amount of time to complete, and that no one ever makes babies again.
The growth rate of Quixtar, arguably the largest MLM in North America, is currently less than the rate of people turning 18. So, for those who DO choose to participate in an MLM, there is, as of this time right now, still the oportunity to be sucessful at it. The real separating factor between those who complete and profit from such programs, and those who drop out at a loss, or at no gain, is, for all practical purposes, persistence, and mentally manipulating yourself.
A lot of sinics you are. If someone is happy about something -- there has got to be something wrong, right?
Who said that?
I'm a physics student. I get anal retentive about acuracy.
nice jackassy way to say that you're right and i'm wrong
the line that separates a pyramid scheme from a legal MLM style business is very VERY fine, and can be easily and accidentally crossed. Bare in mind that pyramid schemes are illegal, and the FTC shuts them down quickly. Keep looking on the FTC web site, and you'll come across the 4 standards that they use to judge whether or not something is an illegal pyramid.
As far as the saturation argument goes, it's correct if we make the mistaken assumption that everyone who starts the program will finish it, that it takes every person who participates the same amount of time to complete, and that no one ever makes babies again.
The growth rate of Quixtar, arguably the largest MLM in North America, is currently less than the rate of people turning 18. So, for those who DO choose to participate in an MLM, there is, as of this time right now, still the oportunity to be sucessful at it. The real separating factor between those who complete and profit from such programs, and those who drop out at a loss, or at no gain, is, for all practical purposes, persistence, and mentally manipulating yourself.
Of course it isn't illegal, bacause no one is paying cash. Me calling it a pyramid scheme is a way of saying that it operates on the same premis as one.
Here is the FTCs article on MLM vs. Pyramid Schemes. Decide for yourself which one it most closely resembles. Strictly speaking, it's neither, but the scammy websites' (those giving free Macs) intrinsic claims that we can all be running around with free computers is absolutely false.
As far as your simple dismissal of 'the saturation argument,' obviously not everyone completes it. What makes it dubious is that the company relies on getting free profits (service sign-up profits) in order to 'pay' the users higher up on the pyramid. This pyramid is different in that it probably won't collapse because it assumes that most people won't finish. If they did, the pyramid would fall in on itself.
The argument you should be making is that most referrels are never expecting to get a free widget themselves, but that they are signing up referrels to help out a friend.
in my experience, the main reason why people consider these pyramids, and why they are so unpopular, is that there's a bunch of people running around trying to get you to do something.
Interesting to note that this is probably the most fundamental challenge for people who do participate in an MLM. How do you sell stuff without selling stuff?
Then, once you figure that out, how do you NOT sell stuff while also not wasting oportunity?
Another fundamental problem is that (at least within Quixtar) those who do become successful tend to have the 'Business' switch permanently duct taped into the ON position. The separation between work and home tends to vanish, and they tend to acumulate and maintain only business related friendships. Friendships which, without the business connection to support them, end up proving themselves to be false.
Don't know if that applies to all MLM style programs, though I suspect that it does, to varying degrees.
Hmm. Not sure about the reliance on noncompletion. I don't know the details of the program, and that's a rather fine point (where do they break even?). My gut instinct tells me that in order to get the free merchandise, you complete a certain number, say 5, for example, of offers, each worth $x (so the value added by your participation is now 5*x) to the advertisers, and then get, say, 20 referrals, who each do .... hmmm... ok let me stop a second.
So, in order for the program to be totally self sufficient, and never operate at a loss, and not rely on people not completing, the cost to the program of the product that you recieve can be no more than 5*$x.
If it DOES count on people not completing, then the product could be worth more, say, 30*$x, supposing that half of your refferals complete, and half only complete half of the offers...
This is a very interesting point about these. I was looking about, and one I found was offering a Mac Mini, or, get this, $575 cash for finding 13 referrals. So, they're throwing a number out, and in order for them to break even, each referral would have to be worth $44. Seems like a lot for blockbuster to pay someone to recruit a trial membership, but I don't know for sure. But if from the 13 referrals (let's assume they are interested in scoring their own mini/cash), 3 manage to complete the offer (13 more referrals each), and 10 manage an average of 4 refferals each, that would be 92 completed offers (13 x 4 + 10 x 4) supporting $2300 in cash/merchandise, or $25 per refferal. This isn't a very accurate way of taking this apart, and since I've never been a serious student of math, I'm not sure how to figure this in a more comprehensive way. $25 per refferal still seems pretty high.
I would also argue that as the program continues, the non-completion rate becomes higher because of saturation.
Anyway, I think it's rather a moot point. While this would make it decidely sketchy from an investors standpoint, in my experience, the main reason why people consider these pyramids, and why they are so unpopular, is that there's a bunch of people running around trying to get you to do something. Doesn't matter if its good for you, I've found most people just hate being told what to do.
true, we're all sick to death of advertising and something-for-nothing pitches.
so.... um... Oh yeah. I'm saying that it is, on a technical basis, not a pyramid scheme, and you are saying that it fundamentally operates like one. So we're not disagreeing, and we're also not arguing.
Fair enough
Fair enough
<nod> due to the nature of the MLM style compensation plan, it's a very fine line. Even within the same fundamental program. For example, some groups in Quixtar operate in a decidely pyramidal fashion, which, if it were scrutinized by the FTC, would be very rapidly shut down. Others operate legitimately. It's very easy to cross over the line... and then back... and then over... and then back.... and then... you get the drift.