Apple to repair shutdown-plagued MacBooks under warranty

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  • Reply 21 of 36
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,723member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM


    There is some merit to it though, and in some cases, I think it has been studied with regards to customer and constituent complaints, I just don't know how I can dig that up.



    I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that for every person that's reported a problem on a particular obscure site that there must be at least ten other people that has experienced the problem but don't go to the bother of going to said obscure site.



    And a certain number who don't go to any of these sites, and who don't even know that this is something unusual. They will continue to have these problems and think it is annoying, but normal.



    That's the worst part. In their ignorence, they might never buy a Mac again, especially if they are a first time user. Getting to them is very important.
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  • Reply 22 of 36
    I really don't think anyone no matter what level of experience they have with computers would think it normal for their computer to shutdown while using it.
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  • Reply 23 of 36
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,723member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by awinn233


    I really don't think anyone no matter what level of experience they have with computers would think it normal for their computer to shutdown while using it.



    Oh yes they would. You would be surprised at the things I've seen with some of my customers over the years.
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  • Reply 24 of 36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by awinn233


    I really don't think anyone no matter what level of experience they have with computers would think it normal for their computer to shutdown while using it.



    If they're coming from the PC world, they might think, ah, well, at least the OS X thing is nice and my MacBook looks cool. People from the PC world are quite forgiving. "Ah, well, this popup always comes up, whatever, I just ignore it and hit close, it's all second nature..."
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  • Reply 25 of 36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross


    And a certain number who don't go to any of these sites, and who don't even know that this is something unusual. They will continue to have these problems and think it is annoying, but normal.



    That's the worst part. In their ignorence, they might never buy a Mac again, especially if they are a first time user. Getting to them is very important.



    [Insert reference to AppleDiscussions @ AppleSupport being overhauled]
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  • Reply 26 of 36
    Owners of Powerbook G4s with THEIR random sleep problems - also very likely heat-related, and caused by a particular build or design - are not offered a reduced or free repair, even though Apple is as much the culprit there as much as they are for MacBook Pro. They get you through precisely one year of warranty, and then you're on your own, and how much on your own you are you can realize pretty harshly.



    Furthermore, they wait until pressure is very high - rather than admitting failure right then and there, or offering information and fixes. In other words, Apple management lets users troubleshoot Apple's own design problems despite a rather costly price, and I find that extremely cheap. If it's me troubleshooting ANYWAY, I may as well do that with something cheaper.



    So... this offer here doesn't do it for me.
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  • Reply 27 of 36
    slugheadslughead Posts: 1,169member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by swisswuff


    Owners of Powerbook G4s with THEIR random sleep problems - also very likely heat-related, and caused by a particular build or design - are not offered a reduced or free repair, even though Apple is as much the culprit there as much as they are for MacBook Pro. They get you through precisely one year of warranty, and then you're on your own, and how much on your own you are you can realize pretty harshly.



    Furthermore, they wait until pressure is very high - rather than admitting failure right then and there, or offering information and fixes. In other words, Apple management lets users troubleshoot Apple's own design problems despite a rather costly price, and I find that extremely cheap. If it's me troubleshooting ANYWAY, I may as well do that with something cheaper.



    So... this offer here doesn't do it for me.





    It's not just pressure, they want to start selling to a larger audience. They know that most powerbook buyers love mac so much, they'll never switch. However, a large portion of macbook and macbook pro owners are first-time Apple buyers, and therefore they need to be 'nicer' to make headway into the marketplace.



    Quite simply, they know you're not going to buy a PC just because your PB failed. They can't say the same for Macbook (pro) owners.
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  • Reply 28 of 36
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,723member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by swisswuff


    Owners of Powerbook G4s with THEIR random sleep problems - also very likely heat-related, and caused by a particular build or design - are not offered a reduced or free repair, even though Apple is as much the culprit there as much as they are for MacBook Pro. They get you through precisely one year of warranty, and then you're on your own, and how much on your own you are you can realize pretty harshly.



    Furthermore, they wait until pressure is very high - rather than admitting failure right then and there, or offering information and fixes. In other words, Apple management lets users troubleshoot Apple's own design problems despite a rather costly price, and I find that extremely cheap. If it's me troubleshooting ANYWAY, I may as well do that with something cheaper.



    So... this offer here doesn't do it for me.



    From what I recall, those sleep problems, which is a completely different issue, is mostly software related, or third party hardware/software related. It affected, in different ways, all Mac's, not just laptops.



    This is an Apple hardware problem.
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  • Reply 29 of 36
    - Narcoleptic Powerbook Syndrome is not software related. You can install everything from scratch and it'll still fall asleep. It can be systematically traced to defective hardware.



    - I am currently moving to PC laptop hardware. It's a bit of a haul, but I guess I'll get there :-)
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  • Reply 30 of 36
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,723member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by swisswuff


    - Narcoleptic Powerbook Syndrome is not software related. You can install everything from scratch and it'll still fall asleep. It can be systematically traced to defective hardware.



    - I am currently moving to PC laptop hardware. It's a bit of a haul, but I guess I'll get there :-)



    Really? Which part of the hardware was defective? The problems were with the OS, as I remember.
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  • Reply 31 of 36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross


    Really? Which part of the hardware was defective? The problems were with the OS, as I remember.



    The part, that is defective, contains at least the trackpad temperature sensor. This can be isolated as problem and shown, and it's most definitely not an OS or software problem. It is as pure a hardware issue as they come.



    For a repair, apparently the top case part is the least amount of hardware that has to be replaced, and likely some more (logic board, heat sink, ..). The repair is thus likely to be rather costly.



    Since it is a rather costly hardware repair that is really expensive - and in no way just to be ""fixed"" by "just" installing some "software" -, it is really an issue.



    Only because Apple doesn't acknowledge it doesn't mean it's not an issue ;-) ;-)
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  • Reply 32 of 36
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,723member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by swisswuff


    The part, that is defective, contains at least the trackpad temperature sensor. This can be isolated as problem and shown, and it's most definitely not an OS or software problem. It is as pure a hardware issue as they come.



    For a repair, apparently the top case part is the least amount of hardware that has to be replaced, and likely some more (logic board, heat sink, ..). The repair is thus likely to be rather costly.



    Since it is a rather costly hardware repair that is really expensive - and in no way just to be ""fixed"" by "just" installing some "software" -, it is really an issue.



    Only because Apple doesn't acknowledge it doesn't mean it's not an issue ;-) ;-)



    Trackpad temp sensor? I've never heard of that one. You mean a sensor that happens to be under the trackpad? Is it an HD temp sensor? Or one for the memory, or cpu? Do you know what was causing the actual problem? It couldn't have just been a sensor, unless it was embedded in some device, or the board itself.



    Now, I'm curious, since I've never read of this anywhere.
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  • Reply 33 of 36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross


    Trackpad temp sensor? I've never heard of that one. You mean a sensor that happens to be under the trackpad? Is it an HD temp sensor? Or one for the memory, or cpu? Do you know what was causing the actual problem? It couldn't have just been a sensor, unless it was embedded in some device, or the board itself.



    Now, I'm curious, since I've never read of this anywhere.



    You can run a program called Temperature Monitor on a narcoleptic Apple Powerbook G4 that has this particular hardware defect (as my now defunct Powerbook G4 had), you can then software-disable the PMU (to prevent the defective Powerbook from falling asleep), and then watch the Trackpad Temperature Sensor read out fantasy temperature figures as high as 200 degrees Celsius. At that moment, you can be pretty sure of a true hardware problem, particularly if you already tried one or the other OS re-install. Once you find many other people with the same type of defective Apple Powerbook G4, you can be pretty sure about an Apple-based design issue that is not resolved by Apple, rather than a single incident.



    Normally, a healthy Powerbook would be triggered to fall asleep when a particularly high temperature is read out from one of the temp sensors - but in case of a defective sensor that will yield fantasy temperatures such as 200 degrees, you will experience what is nicknamed "Narcoleptic Powerbook". So, faulty hardware will cause the Powerbook to loose some of its functionality, which is particularly "entertaining" when it starts falling asleep while you try to prepare a presentation (which is what happened to me), or conduct a presentation (which is what happened to someone else). At that moment, you can't accept this defect of your defective Apple Powerbook any more.



    The real cause of the Apple Powerbook G4 defects appears to be not known to the public; it has been speculated that cables are fried because of too much dissipation of heat due to the way Apple constructed these computers, but I have examined my machine and there was no indication of a fried cable.



    It is likely a complicated issue. Some people get their fautly Powerbook G4s repaired on warranty (if they still have warranty) - but some other people report some more costly repairs. Parts that Apple is known to swap in these instances include logic board and the top case unit that includes the trackpad (and the faulty sensor). Such an extensive hardware repair by Apple indicates a rather serious hardware problem. If Apple's trackpad temperature defect in some of their Apple Powerbook G4s was software-based, would you think Apple would conduct a repair that costs some 1000 US dollar?
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  • Reply 34 of 36
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,723member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by swisswuff


    You can run a program called Temperature Monitor on a narcoleptic Apple Powerbook G4 that has this particular hardware defect (as my now defunct Powerbook G4 had), you can then software-disable the PMU (to prevent the defective Powerbook from falling asleep), and then watch the Trackpad Temperature Sensor read out fantasy temperature figures as high as 200 degrees Celsius. At that moment, you can be pretty sure of a true hardware problem, particularly if you already tried one or the other OS re-install. Once you find many other people with the same type of defective Apple Powerbook G4, you can be pretty sure about an Apple-based design issue that is not resolved by Apple, rather than a single incident.



    Normally, a healthy Powerbook would be triggered to fall asleep when a particularly high temperature is read out from one of the temp sensors - but in case of a defective sensor that will yield fantasy temperatures such as 200 degrees, you will experience what is nicknamed "Narcoleptic Powerbook". So, faulty hardware will cause the Powerbook to loose some of its functionality, which is particularly "entertaining" when it starts falling asleep while you try to prepare a presentation (which is what happened to me), or conduct a presentation (which is what happened to someone else). At that moment, you can't accept this defect of your defective Apple Powerbook any more.



    The real cause of the Apple Powerbook G4 defects appears to be not known to the public; it has been speculated that cables are fried because of too much dissipation of heat due to the way Apple constructed these computers, but I have examined my machine and there was no indication of a fried cable.



    It is likely a complicated issue. Some people get their fautly Powerbook G4s repaired on warranty (if they still have warranty) - but some other people report some more costly repairs. Parts that Apple is known to swap in these instances include logic board and the top case unit that includes the trackpad (and the faulty sensor). Such an extensive hardware repair by Apple indicates a rather serious hardware problem. If Apple's trackpad temperature defect in some of their Apple Powerbook G4s was software-based, would you think Apple would conduct a repair that costs some 1000 US dollar?



    That's interesting. But, from what you are saying, they aren't certain, even now, as to what the actual problem is. Odd, don't you think?



    It could be an interaction between the hardware and the temp functions in the OS, that has happened before. That would be why a re-install won't fix the problem. That has happened before as well.



    If they can't seem to track the entire problem, I can see them replacing the board with a later version.



    Was your problem solved by that?
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  • Reply 35 of 36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross


    Was your problem solved by that?



    No.



    After I had identified that a considerable amount of such problems with Apple Powerbook G4 defective temperature sensor were reported, all pointing to heatsink / trackpad temperature sensor issues, all pointing to Apple not acknowledging or being sure what it was (neither of which would be good), with repairs ranging from a raging 1000 to 1300 US$, and seeing as if I was out of luck with my warranty gone, I decided to reevaluate my options.



    After all, laptop computing is mainly about running software such as IDL, OpenOffice, Gimp or Firefox on reliable and fast hardware - not about making sure Apple employees are well fed beyond all naive belief in this brand. Really, getting X11 for OS X to perform well was typically more difficult than running Linux stuff on a PC, and finding stable LaTeX software is as even more a lottery on OS X than it is on Windows or Linux. If you end up with strange problems - and you very well may - , PC user base on this planet is huge, whereas the Mac user base and technical proficiency is very small compared to that. That's why I decided to try a PC notebook for right now.



    So, I am currently busy setting up an Asus A6T AMD Turion 64 X2 64-bit notebook with an NVIDIA Geforce graphics card, that cost me 1600$ configured with 2 GB of RAM, runs the specific software that I need to run just about in 25-30% of the time it takes on a 2.16GHz Intel Core Duo laptop (it's extremely fast for floating point array operations), and I have an included onsite (!) 2-year warranty with that. A better deal than an almost similarly priced and really risky Apple repair of a technically somewhat outdated Apple Powerbook G4, with Apple being reluctant to show us they even understand the issues, obviously.



    So far, so good. And, who knows, maybe one sunny day, Apple may release their own OS X for PCs and PC laptops. Who knows.
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  • Reply 36 of 36
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,723member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by swisswuff


    No.



    After I had identified that a considerable amount of such problems with Apple Powerbook G4 defective temperature sensor were reported, all pointing to heatsink / trackpad temperature sensor issues, all pointing to Apple not acknowledging or being sure what it was (neither of which would be good), with repairs ranging from a raging 1000 to 1300 US$, and seeing as if I was out of luck with my warranty gone, I decided to reevaluate my options.



    After all, laptop computing is mainly about running software such as IDL, OpenOffice, Gimp or Firefox on reliable and fast hardware - not about making sure Apple employees are well fed beyond all naive belief in this brand. Really, getting X11 for OS X to perform well was typically more difficult than running Linux stuff on a PC, and finding stable LaTeX software is as even more a lottery on OS X than it is on Windows or Linux. If you end up with strange problems - and you very well may - , PC user base on this planet is huge, whereas the Mac user base and technical proficiency is very small compared to that. That's why I decided to try a PC notebook for right now.



    So, I am currently busy setting up an Asus A6T AMD Turion 64 X2 64-bit notebook with an NVIDIA Geforce graphics card, that cost me 1600$ configured with 2 GB of RAM, runs the specific software that I need to run just about in 25-30% of the time it takes on a 2.16GHz Intel Core Duo laptop (it's extremely fast for floating point array operations), and I have an included onsite (!) 2-year warranty with that. A better deal than an almost similarly priced and really risky Apple repair of a technically somewhat outdated Apple Powerbook G4, with Apple being reluctant to show us they even understand the issues, obviously.



    So far, so good. And, who knows, maybe one sunny day, Apple may release their own OS X for PCs and PC laptops. Who knows.



    That's an odd problem, as I said, I've never heard of it. There would have been a lot of howling if it were widespread.



    But, good luck with whatever you choose to do.
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