True, but the Prius is a fairly solid and mid-sized car. If it was built smaller I'm sure it could get better gas mileage. Also, 46 is our real-life mpg with city/highway driving. They quote 60/52 city/highway but that's off mark like in all cars. I'd be curious to compare it to other cars that are similar in size or features because really, as with all things, it is all about compromises. The main thing the Prius has going for it over other hybdris is that it was built from the ground up as such and has various high-end features.
Prius in Europe and Canada have an electric only mode. If US Priuses had the feature we'd use that when tooling about town -- a "plug in hybrid". However the EPA and the government decided to limit that ability to foreign markets and Prius hackers. There's still a slot on the dash where the switch would go!
Its funny where this thread has gone, esp. since it started with something akin to our shared Mac pride. I'm not going to argue that the Prius is the most environmentally friendly car on Earth (it emits daisies and puppies instead of the usual exhaust!) but I would argue that it is far more environmentally responsible than many other cars out there. If we didn't get a Prius we would have purchased a more traditional car that got maybe 25 - 30 mpg so it has its eco benefits.
Meanwhile, I take mass transit to/from work in San Francisco every day.
True, but the Prius is a fairly solid and mid-sized car. If it was built smaller I'm sure it could get better gas mileage. Also, 46 is our real-life mpg with city/highway driving. They quote 60/52 city/highway but that's off mark like in all cars.....
Grove gets into it a bit as to why I think they are snobby. It amounts to being able to pay nearly 33% more just to show solidarity with a cause.
Edmunds and consumer reports apparently are now saying they are economical considering the high gas prices. \
Quote:
Sure, you add the tone.
Right...wait, didn't you say the exact same thing to someone else? You are just so misunderstood.
Quote:
Gee if I think I don't like your tone there, can I argue about your intent for ten replies?
We don't need to because I don't lie about my intent or the contents of my post.
Quote:
I would agree with you if cities like Riverside, San Bernadino, Ontario weren't all knitted together and had larger combined populations than say...several states.
The exception? Hey, since you know so much about what I do, why don't list every state I've lived in over the past 10-15 years and each of the mountain ranges I've been in during the last 6 months.
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You take an experience so rare you can accomodate it with a rental
Hmmm. Renting a car on an island implies a lack of mountain and off-road driving? Maybe you can walk me through the logic you're using to come up with that one.
Quote:
I'm sure you are also comparing freeways, with freeways right?
Freeways that you need a truck for?
Quote:
I've stated that these tools work best for where I live.
Eh, the towing argument actually made sense. This one, not so much.
Quote:
What you describe is true. However it is also comparative...you are welcome to do so.k
I don't know why you want to pretend your area is less exurban/rural than it is.
Gas mileage estimates from car companies come from the EPA. Since real world mileage is invariably lower, there are problems with the accuracy of the test used by the government.
It's a good bit heavier (~11%), and that's not because of parts made from fairy dust, compost, and Miracle-Gro. Those parts are made somewhere using processes, factories, materials, and electricity; they weren't shit out of Mother Nature's loving colon.
Yep, its 300 lbs of toxic battery technology. That and the extra weight from the fact that a Prius has luxury features and the Corolla does not. The batteries should be recycled in the end and both Honda and Toyota claim they will. The economic value probably makes it worth while.
The advantage isn't illusory unless you cherry pick the mileage. Plus hybid technology is still young. Early adopters indicate that a market exists (at least with current gas prices) and this provides incentive for further development over buying a Corola.
Quote:
A user here gets an average for 46mpg in his Prius.
A 2006 Corolla is rated 32/41mpg (city/hwy).
Obviously the Prius has an advantage here, but it depends on where someone does his driving. I'd bet that if it's a lot of highway miles they'll be almost even.
Googling shows that the average appears to be 48MPG ranging from 31 to 61MPG.
And then you use actual mileage vs rated mileage. From the same site the 2006 Corolla only got 35.5 MPG average with a range from 29 to 41 MPG.
48 vs 36. Annual fuel cost of $715 vs $1093. 3.4 tons of greenhouse gas emissions vs 5.2 tons. 96 cubic feet passenger space vs 89 cubic feet. 16 cubic feet lugggage vs 14 cubic feet. Luxury vs basic.
Autoleveling HID headlamps, alloy wheels, spoiler, High Solar Energy-Absorbing Glass, rear wiper, fog lamps, push button start, climate control system, tilt steering with audio, climate and navigation function controls, side airbags, curtain airbags, antilock brakes, continuously variable transmission.
Standard.
Corolla LE. None of these. heck cruise control is an option as are side curtain air bags and anti-lock brakes.
The Toyota site says $21K for the Prius and $15K for the Corolla LE. Add automatic transmission, alloy wheels, spoiler, cruise control, ABS and airbags and the price is $19K.
You can't order leather seats, nav system, etc that you can order on the Prius.
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There is nothing wrong with owning a Prius. By the same token, there's nothing wrong with owning a Lamborghini Murcielago or a Corvette Z06. I'd love to have any one of the three, but not because the Prius is going to save the environment or because the Lamborghini and Z06 will lower my track times, but because they're cool, because of their image (although, to be fair, the Z06 does offer Ferrari performance at 1/3rd the price).
Well, a Murciélago or Z06 WOULD lower MY track times which wouldn't be saying much. Well a Z06 would anyway. I'd likely blow a shift on the Murciélago given my last not so hot performance unless I happened to have Kobe's wife's car.
Likewise a Prius does save gas. "Save the environment" is a taller order. Even there, should the Prius drive demand for hybrids in general it should have a positive impact that outweighs its individual performance. Its the first hybrid that didn't suck.
I don't think a Prius will save the environment, but it arguably is more environmentally friendly.
I look at it similarly to the PBS pledge drives. No, my $35 donation to public television doesn't do much by itself, but if thousands of people give $35 too, then we're getting somewhere.
No, one person driving one Prius won't save the earth or rebuild the ozone layer, but a thousand Priuses will be much less damaging to the environment than a thousand Corollas.
I do not believe the difference between 1000 Priuses and 1000 Corollas is significant.
Again, this is not an argument for the internal combustion engine. As evidenced by my thread about the Tesla roadster, I'd love to have an electric car.
Again, this is not an argument for the internal combustion engine. As evidenced by my thread about the Tesla roadster, I'd love to have an electric car.
I don't see the distinction you're making.
Like hybrid vehicles, with electric cars aren't you similarly increasing the production externalities to reduce fossil-fuel consumption at the pump? I'm not saying that's a bad argument. I think it's a very good one because it's much easier in theory to regulate factory emissions than to regulate billions of little murphy's-law-mobiles.
Gas mileage estimates from car companies come from the EPA. Since real world mileage is invariably lower, there are problems with the accuracy of the test used by the government.
Ironically the Prius and other Synergy-drive based hyrbids have a computer screen that displays the real-life, real-time and historical MPG. Who knows what the EPA does, but obviously its out of whack with reality... and not just for the Prius but for all cars. Sorta like the screen sizes for CRT monitors and HD capacities.
Perhaps the MPG ratings are for coasting downhill all the time, sorta the opposite of "back in my day I walked to school uphill in the snow both ways."
I don't understand how some here are arguing that hybrids have no beneficial impact on the environment. It seems to me that if it doesn't run the engine all the time (like a regular vehicle) and uses less gasoline to go the same distance (as a regular vehicle) then it would be better for the environment. Why is it not possible for a person who's concerned about the health of our planet to take advantage of that and not be a snob?
It's inexplicable, but I suppose anything that challenges our individual closely held viewpoints (no matter how irrational) can appear to be a personal threat. That's just human nature.
It is possible for someone to want to help the planet, but the Prius isn't a vehicle that does that in a significant, important way. Perhaps in the sense that high demand for the Prius might motivate car companies, but to me the Prius is just as much a sign of how perverted the idea is as it is a nod in the right direction.
I would actually argue that Honda and Toyota going so gimmicky (Element and Prius) has actually hurt the "alternative" market. I think the Civic, Accord, and Camry hybrids are a bigger deal than the Prius because those are mainstream vehicles.
If you look at Toyota's lineup there is no reason for the Prius to exist except for it's hybrid drivetrain. Give that to the Camry and the Corolla... now what?
The real question: Why didn't Honda/Toyota just go straight to hybrid Corolla/Camry/Civic/Accord? Why the gimmicks? And if you're going to go with gimmicks, why not go bigtime and do all-electric or plug-in hybrid?
And if you're going to go with gimmicks, why not go bigtime and do all-electric or plug-in hybrid?
The next-generaton Prius will be a plug-in hybrid with an estimated 150 mpg. Perceived market-bias against plug-ins was the only reason Toyota didn't go with that more efficient set-up in the first place. Although I think two things changed the company's thinking on that point: 1) a sizable after-market developed for converting Prius engines to plug-in capability and, more importantly, 2) the need to differentiate their products from increased competition in the hybrid-vehicle category. Toyota feels it can do that with the *huge* gains of plug-in capability.
Edit: I just remembered there was some controversy about the 150 mpg quote-- someone messed up units or something. I think it's going to just under 100 mpg.
The next-generaton Prius will be a plug-in hybrid with an estimated 150 mpg. Perceived market-bias against plug-ins was the only reason Toyota didn't go with that more efficient set-up in the first place. Although I think two things changed the company's thinking on that point: 1) a sizable after-market developed for converting Prius engines to plug-in capability and, more importantly, 2) the need to differentiate their products from increased competition in the hybrid-vehicle category. Toyota feels it can do that with the *huge* gains of plug-in capability.
Edit: I just remembered there was some controversy about the 150 mpg quote-- someone messed up units or something. I think it's going to just under 100 mpg.
One big problem with the plug in hybrid is that you could end up doing worse for the environment based on where you get your electricity from. I think I remember that you live in PA. PA = big coal. Don't plug in your hybrid. Your gas burning car is better in terms of CO2 and other pollutants. In you live in Nevada ... PLUG in. Hydroelectric = clean. So just because it's electric doesn't mean it's clean.
I heard of a web site where you could put in where you lived and it would tell you if you were better off burning gas or plugging. I'll try to find it.
Fords newer hybrid is supposed to be good to. It's geared for both low and high speed using a combination of planetary gears. Too bad the rest of the car will suck.
Comments
Xool:
46mpg? That's it? Ford Fiestas get that.
True, but the Prius is a fairly solid and mid-sized car. If it was built smaller I'm sure it could get better gas mileage. Also, 46 is our real-life mpg with city/highway driving. They quote 60/52 city/highway but that's off mark like in all cars. I'd be curious to compare it to other cars that are similar in size or features because really, as with all things, it is all about compromises. The main thing the Prius has going for it over other hybdris is that it was built from the ground up as such and has various high-end features.
Prius in Europe and Canada have an electric only mode. If US Priuses had the feature we'd use that when tooling about town -- a "plug in hybrid". However the EPA and the government decided to limit that ability to foreign markets and Prius hackers.
Its funny where this thread has gone, esp. since it started with something akin to our shared Mac pride. I'm not going to argue that the Prius is the most environmentally friendly car on Earth (it emits daisies and puppies instead of the usual exhaust!) but I would argue that it is far more environmentally responsible than many other cars out there. If we didn't get a Prius we would have purchased a more traditional car that got maybe 25 - 30 mpg so it has its eco benefits.
Meanwhile, I take mass transit to/from work in San Francisco every day.
True, but the Prius is a fairly solid and mid-sized car. If it was built smaller I'm sure it could get better gas mileage. Also, 46 is our real-life mpg with city/highway driving. They quote 60/52 city/highway but that's off mark like in all cars.....
They are allowed to be that far off???
Grove gets into it a bit as to why I think they are snobby. It amounts to being able to pay nearly 33% more just to show solidarity with a cause.
Edmunds and consumer reports apparently are now saying they are economical considering the high gas prices.
Sure, you add the tone.
Right...wait, didn't you say the exact same thing to someone else? You are just so misunderstood.
Gee if I think I don't like your tone there, can I argue about your intent for ten replies?
We don't need to because I don't lie about my intent or the contents of my post.
I would agree with you if cities like Riverside, San Bernadino, Ontario weren't all knitted together and had larger combined populations than say...several states.
It's ot about whether you agree or not. Your neighbors apparently consider it rural. By calling it exurban/rural I'm being generous.
You use the exception to prove the rule?
The exception? Hey, since you know so much about what I do, why don't list every state I've lived in over the past 10-15 years and each of the mountain ranges I've been in during the last 6 months.
You take an experience so rare you can accomodate it with a rental
Hmmm. Renting a car on an island implies a lack of mountain and off-road driving? Maybe you can walk me through the logic you're using to come up with that one.
I'm sure you are also comparing freeways, with freeways right?
Freeways that you need a truck for?
I've stated that these tools work best for where I live.
Eh, the towing argument actually made sense. This one, not so much.
What you describe is true. However it is also comparative...you are welcome to do so.k
I don't know why you want to pretend your area is less exurban/rural than it is.
They are allowed to be that far off???
Gas mileage estimates from car companies come from the EPA. Since real world mileage is invariably lower, there are problems with the accuracy of the test used by the government.
Because the "advantage" is illusory.
The curb weight of a Prius is 2890lbs.
The curb weight of a 4-door Corrola is 2595lbs.
It's a good bit heavier (~11%), and that's not because of parts made from fairy dust, compost, and Miracle-Gro. Those parts are made somewhere using processes, factories, materials, and electricity; they weren't shit out of Mother Nature's loving colon.
Yep, its 300 lbs of toxic battery technology. That and the extra weight from the fact that a Prius has luxury features and the Corolla does not. The batteries should be recycled in the end and both Honda and Toyota claim they will. The economic value probably makes it worth while.
The advantage isn't illusory unless you cherry pick the mileage. Plus hybid technology is still young. Early adopters indicate that a market exists (at least with current gas prices) and this provides incentive for further development over buying a Corola.
A user here gets an average for 46mpg in his Prius.
A 2006 Corolla is rated 32/41mpg (city/hwy).
Obviously the Prius has an advantage here, but it depends on where someone does his driving. I'd bet that if it's a lot of highway miles they'll be almost even.
Googling shows that the average appears to be 48MPG ranging from 31 to 61MPG.
And then you use actual mileage vs rated mileage. From the same site the 2006 Corolla only got 35.5 MPG average with a range from 29 to 41 MPG.
48 vs 36. Annual fuel cost of $715 vs $1093. 3.4 tons of greenhouse gas emissions vs 5.2 tons. 96 cubic feet passenger space vs 89 cubic feet. 16 cubic feet lugggage vs 14 cubic feet. Luxury vs basic.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001c...umn=2&id=21882
The 2007 Prius costs $20419.
The 2007 Corolla LE costs $13950.
Autoleveling HID headlamps, alloy wheels, spoiler, High Solar Energy-Absorbing Glass, rear wiper, fog lamps, push button start, climate control system, tilt steering with audio, climate and navigation function controls, side airbags, curtain airbags, antilock brakes, continuously variable transmission.
Standard.
Corolla LE. None of these. heck cruise control is an option as are side curtain air bags and anti-lock brakes.
The Toyota site says $21K for the Prius and $15K for the Corolla LE. Add automatic transmission, alloy wheels, spoiler, cruise control, ABS and airbags and the price is $19K.
You can't order leather seats, nav system, etc that you can order on the Prius.
There is nothing wrong with owning a Prius. By the same token, there's nothing wrong with owning a Lamborghini Murcielago or a Corvette Z06. I'd love to have any one of the three, but not because the Prius is going to save the environment or because the Lamborghini and Z06 will lower my track times, but because they're cool, because of their image (although, to be fair, the Z06 does offer Ferrari performance at 1/3rd the price).
Well, a Murciélago or Z06 WOULD lower MY track times which wouldn't be saying much. Well a Z06 would anyway. I'd likely blow a shift on the Murciélago given my last not so hot performance unless I happened to have Kobe's wife's car.
Likewise a Prius does save gas. "Save the environment" is a taller order. Even there, should the Prius drive demand for hybrids in general it should have a positive impact that outweighs its individual performance. Its the first hybrid that didn't suck.
Vinea
I look at it similarly to the PBS pledge drives. No, my $35 donation to public television doesn't do much by itself, but if thousands of people give $35 too, then we're getting somewhere.
No, one person driving one Prius won't save the earth or rebuild the ozone layer, but a thousand Priuses will be much less damaging to the environment than a thousand Corollas.
Again, this is not an argument for the internal combustion engine. As evidenced by my thread about the Tesla roadster, I'd love to have an electric car.
Again, this is not an argument for the internal combustion engine. As evidenced by my thread about the Tesla roadster, I'd love to have an electric car.
I don't see the distinction you're making.
Like hybrid vehicles, with electric cars aren't you similarly increasing the production externalities to reduce fossil-fuel consumption at the pump? I'm not saying that's a bad argument. I think it's a very good one because it's much easier in theory to regulate factory emissions than to regulate billions of little murphy's-law-mobiles.
Gas mileage estimates from car companies come from the EPA. Since real world mileage is invariably lower, there are problems with the accuracy of the test used by the government.
Ironically the Prius and other Synergy-drive based hyrbids have a computer screen that displays the real-life, real-time and historical MPG. Who knows what the EPA does, but obviously its out of whack with reality... and not just for the Prius but for all cars. Sorta like the screen sizes for CRT monitors and HD capacities.
Perhaps the MPG ratings are for coasting downhill all the time, sorta the opposite of "back in my day I walked to school uphill in the snow both ways."
Like hybrid vehicles, with electric cars aren't you similarly increasing the production externalities to reduce fossil-fuel consumption at the pump?
Sure, but at least you are completely eliminating one side of it. Then all you have to do is start working on the other side.
I don't understand how some here are arguing that hybrids have no beneficial impact on the environment. It seems to me that if it doesn't run the engine all the time (like a regular vehicle) and uses less gasoline to go the same distance (as a regular vehicle) then it would be better for the environment. Why is it not possible for a person who's concerned about the health of our planet to take advantage of that and not be a snob?
It's inexplicable, but I suppose anything that challenges our individual closely held viewpoints (no matter how irrational) can appear to be a personal threat. That's just human nature.
I would actually argue that Honda and Toyota going so gimmicky (Element and Prius) has actually hurt the "alternative" market. I think the Civic, Accord, and Camry hybrids are a bigger deal than the Prius because those are mainstream vehicles.
If you look at Toyota's lineup there is no reason for the Prius to exist except for it's hybrid drivetrain. Give that to the Camry and the Corolla... now what?
The real question: Why didn't Honda/Toyota just go straight to hybrid Corolla/Camry/Civic/Accord? Why the gimmicks? And if you're going to go with gimmicks, why not go bigtime and do all-electric or plug-in hybrid?
And if you're going to go with gimmicks, why not go bigtime and do all-electric or plug-in hybrid?
The next-generaton Prius will be a plug-in hybrid with an estimated 150 mpg. Perceived market-bias against plug-ins was the only reason Toyota didn't go with that more efficient set-up in the first place. Although I think two things changed the company's thinking on that point: 1) a sizable after-market developed for converting Prius engines to plug-in capability and, more importantly, 2) the need to differentiate their products from increased competition in the hybrid-vehicle category. Toyota feels it can do that with the *huge* gains of plug-in capability.
Edit: I just remembered there was some controversy about the 150 mpg quote-- someone messed up units or something. I think it's going to just under 100 mpg.
If anyone wants to keep up with auto news, I like to read:
- Autoblog
I could link to others but you could just as easily read through the recent pages and find plenty.And if those claims are true, it most certainly will.
Anyone around here have info on this new engine? How'd we miss this?
The next-generaton Prius will be a plug-in hybrid with an estimated 150 mpg. Perceived market-bias against plug-ins was the only reason Toyota didn't go with that more efficient set-up in the first place. Although I think two things changed the company's thinking on that point: 1) a sizable after-market developed for converting Prius engines to plug-in capability and, more importantly, 2) the need to differentiate their products from increased competition in the hybrid-vehicle category. Toyota feels it can do that with the *huge* gains of plug-in capability.
Edit: I just remembered there was some controversy about the 150 mpg quote-- someone messed up units or something. I think it's going to just under 100 mpg.
One big problem with the plug in hybrid is that you could end up doing worse for the environment based on where you get your electricity from. I think I remember that you live in PA. PA = big coal. Don't plug in your hybrid. Your gas burning car is better in terms of CO2 and other pollutants. In you live in Nevada ... PLUG in. Hydroelectric = clean. So just because it's electric doesn't mean it's clean.
I heard of a web site where you could put in where you lived and it would tell you if you were better off burning gas or plugging. I'll try to find it.
This Honda looks promising: http://www.popsci.com/popsci/automot...cbccdrcrd.html
I would buy that with just a gas engine in it.