Lies for the masses? Why

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Posted:
in AppleOutsider edited January 2014
just dropping this here while I construct the argument to go with it. Back later



http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/noblelie.htm
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 39
    dmzdmz Posts: 5,775member
    Culture comes from the bottom up, not the other way round. Offering two extremes, from Hitler to Luther: those leaders were simply articulating what a great many people where feeling.



    Communism tried this 'nobel lie', thing but without being "religious", they couldn't make it work.
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  • Reply 2 of 39
    Bullshit.



    Culture is defined by the people who can move economies. Only what sticks is selected by the people who operate in those economies.



    Luther and Hitler didn't change the culture of their people so those are false examples. The businessmen of the spice trade changed the culture of the German people leading to Luther's time. More recently, it was the Americans who changed German culture.
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  • Reply 3 of 39
    dmzdmz Posts: 5,775member
    Luther didn't change the culture?



    Yes, he most certainly did, it was called the Reformation -- when Luther nailed the 95 thesis to the door at Wittenburg, roughly a third of Europe was protestant.



    Also, centrally planned economies barely function -- and some would argue they can only function with the addition of a black market.
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  • Reply 4 of 39
    Luther gave princes a rational for extending feudalism into the religious. Again, it wasn't Luther, it was the educated princes who could actually read his bible -- the wealthy, the top-down.
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  • Reply 5 of 39
    dmzdmz Posts: 5,775member
    Grab a book on the history of the Reformation, you can't conjure up grass-roots movements any more than you can dismiss the effects of the Bible being translated into German, or the effects of moveable type. Tapping into a disgruntled mass' sensibilities over things like indulgences, etc., doesn't amount to fooling people.





    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_luther
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  • Reply 6 of 39
    The significance is that the people of Luther's time had no power to do anything except in the cities. Yes, it is significant that he put his theses in a city, but the people didn't take the initiative. The educated class did. The revolution came from the top-down. Luther, himself, was a member of the upper class...
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  • Reply 7 of 39
    dmzdmz Posts: 5,775member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hardeeharhar


    The significance is that the people of Luther's time had no power to do anything except in the cities. Yes, it is significant that he put his theses in a city, but the people didn't take the initiative. The educated class did. The revolution came from the top-down. Luther, himself, was a member of the upper class...



    Top-down as in leadership, not control. The serious problems with the Roman church had been brewing for more than 150 years. Luther did not beguile anyone into flipping out and starting several new denominations. He basically said what everyone was thinking -- and in the 95 thesis the populace at large found its tipping point. The same goes for Lenin -- almost an exact parallel.
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  • Reply 8 of 39
    The leadership came from the educated/wealthy and that is significant.
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  • Reply 9 of 39
    marcukmarcuk Posts: 4,442member
    hey, you weren't supposed to start till I blew the whistle!



    nevermind, lets have this debate instead.



    DMZ. What you are saying? ... You are saying that Christian Culture created Jesus in the image of what they were thinking, and not that Jesus created Christian Culture.



    I'd have to agree.



    But then I would agree that Christian Culture was created by the educated wealthy elite as hardeehar says.
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  • Reply 10 of 39
    dmzdmz Posts: 5,775member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK


    hey, you weren't supposed to start till I blew the whistle!



    nevermind, lets have this debate instead.



    DMZ. What you are saying? ... You are saying that Christian Culture created Jesus in the image of what they were thinking, and not that Jesus created Christian Culture.



    mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............



























    No.
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  • Reply 11 of 39
    marcukmarcuk Posts: 4,442member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dmz


    mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............



























    No.



    I thought youd disagree. Let me rethink - you must be saying....



























    Jesus Christ IS the 'bottom' of culture.....



    Hell Yes. I'd agree

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  • Reply 12 of 39
    marcukmarcuk Posts: 4,442member
    Anyhow, seeing as we've all understood the original point without me having to make an argument for/against it. What do you think.



    Is a 'noble lie' morally correct?
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  • Reply 13 of 39
    dmzdmz Posts: 5,775member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK


    I thought youd disagree. Let me rethink - you must be saying....



























    Jesus Christ IS the 'bottom' of culture.....



    Hell Yes. I'd agree





    No, inventing Jesus, at least from the written records --- it's just too much to ask. It'd would have to be literary genius on an unprecedented scale; Idiot savantness to the umpteenth power.
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  • Reply 14 of 39
    marcukmarcuk Posts: 4,442member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dmz


    No, inventing Jesus, at least from the written records --- it's just too much to ask. It'd would have to be genius on an unprecedented scale; Idiot savantness to the umpteenth power.



    unless the story of Jesus already existed in other cultures and it was developed? Like by those Educated Jews displaced by war - who had been absorbed into Greek culture and had been studying in Alexandria - say around 50BC
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  • Reply 15 of 39
    Marc, you aren't playing fair.
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  • Reply 16 of 39
    dmzdmz Posts: 5,775member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK


    unless the story of Jesus already existed in other cultures and it was developed? Like by those Educated Jews displaced by war - who had been absorbed into Greek culture and had been studying in Alexandria - say around 50BC



    Ha! I been reading on Greek Culture, don't get me started!



    Seriously, they would have needed a braintrust just to get all the prophetic references in Matthew to jibe with the other three gospels (and the OT), it would demand near-clairvoyance.



    (also, I'm about to crack another Boddingtons, any advice or warnings?)
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  • Reply 17 of 39
    Not really, revising in retrospect isn't so hard.
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  • Reply 18 of 39
    marcukmarcuk Posts: 4,442member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hardeeharhar


    Marc, you aren't playing fair.



    why's that?
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  • Reply 19 of 39
    marcukmarcuk Posts: 4,442member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dmz


    Ha! I been reading on Greek Culture, don't get me started!



    Seriously, they would have needed a braintrust just to get all the prophetic references in Matthew to jibe with the other three gospels (and the OT), it would demand near-clairvoyance.



    (also, I'm about to crack another Boddingtons, any advice or warnings?)



    alas you humour me WRT Matthew, and as it is past midnight, I must elope to Nod. Lets talk about noble lies though. Yes or No?
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  • Reply 20 of 39
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK


    why's that?



    Well of course, you and ena are talking about a bible with very different paths to now. Yours was written by man in hebrew, greek, latin, etc, his was written by god in english (heh). Etc
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