<strong>What is the 'tone' of that signature? I always thought that that quote is good because it reveals how Fascism is not such a simple tyrrany but has a strange supportive relationship to corporate power. . . it makes it understandable that it is something to watch out for even in a supposedly free-market environment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think he's saying there's a strange contrast between the poster's point in his posts (that is, don't pirate software and don't even talk about something that COULD possibly be used to pirate software) and that of his sig (corporations are bad, or something like that). It's just an interesting mix of messages.
I actually thought about this exact issue when I was posting, and how my anti-piracy stance and anti-corporate stance work together. My personal view is that we are living in a world of shrinking freedoms, where more and more of our lives are monitored and tracked by large corporations that are growing more and more above the law. These multi-national institutions pose a serious threat to democracy and freedom, hence my signature. Corporations by their very nature are not democratic. They are about control and profit. Fascism is about control as well. Hence the analogy. That is not to say all groups of people working as a company are evil, but that the unchecked power of the largest multinationals is a threat to what I see as free society.
That being said, I don't think the solution to an evil is to abandon one's own sense of ethics and morality. Many of the programs that I see pirated are made by honest people who must make ends meet in our current economic system. Stealing from them is not battling the system, but rather giving in to the sense of corruption one sees all around them. To battle the system, I believe you have to spread information. Information that can be used to affect changes in our system of government.
I admit that I have somewhat of an idealist view of the world, and I can see how someone could see a conflict between the two views. I do not think that all people who use pirated software are bad, many people use it as a defacto demo. My initial reaction to this thread was not so much a total anti-carracho point of view, but rather a procedural issue on the AI boards. As I said earlier, I was taken aback by some recent responses to a question I had and was annoyed that this topic was getting a pass. I probably should have been clearer.
Thanks to all for their thoughtful questions and observations on my posts, it is what makes this forum so much fun to be a part of.
There is in fact a conflict between your expressed views and your actions. If you have a problem with restrictions on freedom, why would you attack the freedom itself? The channel distributing the software should not be eleminated esspecially since the existence of that channel is fundemental to the distribution of digital files. Piracy can be dealt with in other, less intrusive ways. You have basically condemned sharing of digital information in general while believing you are protecting copyright holders. That attitude is quickly becoming the most dangerous thing to freedom of communication of any type in the digital domain. There are many other ways to stop software piracy and those should be attempted first.
The reason I react so strongly to your statements is because they are so dangerous...
<strong>Anime servers are everywhere now!</strong><hr></blockquote>
lol we all hog the bandwidth of our universities! it's sooo hard to find a good server during the summer, but once school resumes, I have almost a limitless supply! ^_^; Absolute storage space, my hotline server is small (only 220GB). Collection size, mine's one of the top 5 on hotline (700GB when i lost count)...too bad it's private
<strong>There is in fact a conflict between your expressed views and your actions. If you have a problem with restrictions on freedom, why would you attack the freedom itself? The channel distributing the software should not be eleminated esspecially since the existence of that channel is fundemental to the distribution of digital files. Piracy can be dealt with in other, less intrusive ways. You have basically condemned sharing of digital information in general while believing you are protecting copyright holders. That attitude is quickly becoming the most dangerous thing to freedom of communication of any type in the digital domain. There are many other ways to stop software piracy and those should be attempted first.
The reason I react so strongly to your statements is because they are so dangerous...
Actually, nowhere did I suggest shutting down any system. Nor did I "condemn" sharing of digital information in a broad sense. I simply pointed out that discussion of pirated warez on this particular forum is not consistently monitored. Also, I stated that in this emerging world of shared information, people must take on some personal responsibility for their actions. I truly believe in the power of P2P networks to disseminate information that can be used to change the system. However, that power can be used for ill purpose. The solution is not external control over these networks, but rather personal control and respect.
[quote]There is in fact a conflict between your expressed views and your actions. If you have a problem with restrictions on freedom, why would you attack the freedom itself?<hr></blockquote>
To paraphrase someone really old, "to live outside the law you must be honest."
I see nothing wrong with his sig and his post. Many other types of software, other than those written by nasty corporations are also pirated. Small developers, and with mp3s, indie artists also get ripped off. And until there is some consensus in the on-line community about what it is one should steal ....
Note he has not indicated that all HL/Carracho servers be DOS'ed and shut down, or that server owners be arrested. That we leave to our democratically elected and corporately bought government. Expressing ones personal opinions and ethics should not be mistaken for the abridgement of freedom.
To paraphrase someone really old, "to live outside the law you must be honest."
I see nothing wrong with his sig and his post. Many other types of software, other than those written by nasty corporations are also pirated. Small developers, and with mp3s, indie artists also get ripped off. And until there is some consensus in the on-line community about what it is one should steal ....
Note he has not indicated that all HL/Carracho servers be DOS'ed and shut down, or that server owners be arrested. That we leave to our democratically elected and corporately bought government. Expressing ones personal opinions and ethics should not be mistaken for the abridgement of freedom.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you cowerd, your reply is actually better than mine.
Please reread the posts. Until Dave entered, the thread was a discussion on how to use file sharing software. Dave, you reacted immediately to the mention of this software by accusing it of solely being used for piracy and then brought the thread to the attention of Jonathan. Nowhere was piracy mentioned before your post. Read it yourself. Therefore, your reaction was to the file sharing software and, yes, your reaction is exactly the reaction that limits our freedom. You assumed that a discussion of file sharing was a discussion on piracy. Not true in any way. File sharing does not equal piracy, and the best ways to fight piracy have nothing to do with file sharing systems.
While you haven't said that P2P systems be shut down, you have said that mere discussion of file sharing software should be moderated and/or censored and you have indicated that that the same discussion is an admission of guilt.
And PS
Musicians make little money off recorded material, if they do at all. And this is on all levels of the industry. I know this from being in it, but there is more than enough written about it for years now that it is common knowledge. It is not the artists being hurt by sharing of MP3s, it is the larger of the labels. And before you have pity on these large labels, it would be a VERY good idea to do some research and see how the industry actually works. It is nothing short of shocking and is unlike anything else.
OK Giant, I will concede a couple points to you because it was my mistake to not be clearer to begin with.
[quote] Dave, you reacted immediately to the mention of this software by accusing it of solely being used for piracy and then brought the thread to the attention of Jonathan.<hr></blockquote>
You are right, it did seem I was purely associating the software with piracy, which should not be the case. However, you might concede that these services can and are used for major pirating. I must admit to being biased, because in my experience the primary reason for carracho etc is piracy. However I am willing to acknowledge the legitimate purposes these systems can serve.
[quote] While you haven't said that P2P systems be shut down, you have said that mere discussion of file sharing software should be moderated and/or censored and you have indicated that that the same discussion is an admission of guilt.
<hr></blockquote>
My comments on the discussion of file sharing on this forum (AI) were in response to a previous experience which I have mentioned. If the mods want to allow the discussion of piracy or the methods used for that, great, but just be consistent. Note, you are right, this thread was not about piracy per se, it was a leap of logic on my part to make that assumption. I also will not make that assumption in the future, thanks to your responses.
[quote]And PS
Musicians make little money off recorded material, if they do at all. <hr></blockquote>
You won't get any argument from me there. I have worked in the music industry for over 15 years, and I have seen firsthand the way the labels screw the artists. I also believe the industry is missing out on a great opportunity to evolve with the new technology. It would be nice though to somehow let the artist decide what to share or not share. I myself have lost many sales to MP3s, but have also gotten some because of them.
This is also the first mention of the music biz in this thread, so I assume you weren't responding directly to me.
Giant, I respect your opinions, and actually share many of your concerns. My mistake was in the broad generalization of these software services. However, I still stick to my opinion that these services are not unarguably good. The solution as I stated is not censorship, but personal responsibility.
And I apologize for my agressive response in the first place. Piracy is a problem, but I believe that these systems will find new life if software is made less vulnerable to simple copy and distribute piracy. I allso think this development is inevitable. What scares me is that the ability to conveniently share large files might be compromised indefinitely because of this temporary situation. It would be a disaster. Only recently have broadband connections enable users to share large files, and it would be a real pity to have that ability restricted, perhaps even to the point it being unusable for individuals.
I like hotline a lot. There is a lot of piracy on it, but it does have many honest uses. I use a private server shared by a small community of musicians for the sharing of files described in my above post. Since we are seperated geographically it is very useful. Even with the technical drawbacks, I have yet to find something as universal and streamlined.
Again, I'm sorry to junp down your throat, but I do feel strongly about this. I understand why you assumed the discussion would turn south, and I wouldn't have been surprised if it had. I just hope that any strikes against piracy don't have any collateral damage, as they say...
And the music comment was in response to cowerd's post. sorry I didn't put that in...
lol we all hog the bandwidth of our universities! it's sooo hard to find a good server during the summer, but once school resumes, I have almost a limitless supply! ^_^; Absolute storage space, my hotline server is small (only 220GB). Collection size, mine's one of the top 5 on hotline (700GB when i lost count)...too bad it's private </strong><hr></blockquote>
All my anime goes to CDs. =P I don't see the pull in spending that much on Hard Drives. Of course I don't have university bandwidth. That's all I really download nowadays. Back in the day I pirated great games like Civilization 2, which I bought when they released the multiplayer version. But that was back in the day, when the one of greatest games was programing in VB. heh
Note : most anime that is downloaded is not piracy. most anime are fansubs that are legal to my knowledge since they are not licensed by any companies in America. The only times that I have ever seen anyone get chased by the Japanese companies that make these animes, is when someone is selling them. Of course, when the animes get licensed the fansubbers stop subbing them, at least the legal ones do, then the illegal ones pick up series from there.
There are a lot of holes in the arguements that some companies like to use against piracy. The one that I love is the figure of 'sales lost'. They never take into account that some middle school kiddie that downloaded that program to be leet never would have bought that had he not been able to pirate it. This also goes for expensive products in colleges. Take a graphical designer and photoshop. Even with the educational discount $300 is a lot. If the graphical designer in the making can't afford photoshop and doesn't pirate it, he will use something along the lines of GIMP, which is free. Now when he leaves college, and goes to design he will use what is most comfortable for him and what he knows. Now, this is the GIMP. What if he had had photoshop? What if he had pirated photoshop? He would want to use that, and when he got to the professional market he would have to purchase it. No companies would let him use a pirated version of the program, at least any companies worth their weight. In this repsect, piracy is lowering the barrier to entry into using photoshop as a professional once you leave college. In effect this is INCREASING sales for Adobe. This works the same for MicroSoft. Do you think that all the people using XP within the first 3 months shelled out $200+ dollars for it? By allowing some piracy, MS helps the adoption rate climb. The people with the pirated versions spawn more people that see it and want to buy it and so forth. And don't tell me about 'product activation'. That was a half-asses attempt to end piracy. All that does is stop the normal Joe Average Users from installing XP on 3 computers from 1 CD. And the service pack that is coming out already has the beta version cracked. How long will it take the final version to be cracked?
As for the movie industry, they are a bunch of whiny bitches if you excuse my language. They want the computer industry to make changes for THEM. That is lazy and uncalled for. All of the movies that come out before they are released in theaters are 'camera in theater' deals. These are employees of some company in the movie. Somewhere in the chain of command. I think that they should sort out their internal problems before they tell the computer industry that it's their fault. And as for DVD and DeCSS, it's their fault that they used such a crappy encryption scheme. They need to change it and deal with it. I don't like this idea that they want to tell me how *I* can use what I have bought. They are trodding on software EULA territory. They want to tell me that I am leasing the movie from them. It's not surprising that DivX failed ( the DVD rental scheme, not the video codec ).
Well, that's my rant for the day. Feel free to disagree and argue me on any points, though I think we should take this to a different forum for such, maybe fireside chat or apple outsider. Post here if you do since I don't check fireside chat.
Your statements do graze truth. Student discounts should be much better. Apple has the right idea with FCP. Tons of students are using it and you can bet that a lot of the reason is because of the substantial discount. And there is a lot of truth to the idea that they will probably stick with it. Students do not have hundreds or thousands of dollars to spend on software and that needs to be taken into account.
But companies do pirate software, and in large amounts. This goes for all media industries and ranges from installing on multiple machines to flat-out kracks of less used applications. It is very common, though it appears to me that piracy in companies is declining.
I also remember a recent report--that I think I actually found here on AI--that showed that most piracy studies were including shareware and freeware, grouping them with pirated software in the final tally. So I'm not sure anyone has even remotely accurate figures on piracy.
I'm not sure why connecting multiple computers brings out the worst in people, from widespread pornography to digital theft, but something needs to change.
I think that change is going to have to take place in our perception and handling of copyright. There is a major overhaul on the horizon. If you want to see the horrible Big Brother future that awaits us if we start placing limits on file sharing and digital transmission in gerneral, just go to your local university library and check out some online journals and electronic resources. There is some scary shit happening in that world, to the point that many of them are simply not usable. Everybody is pissed off, from the writer to the reader to the library, except for the publishers who are simply confused . This is what will happen if we keep it up in the other areas. Libraries are only now starting to band together and this will hopefully change.
Software is different because it is solely in the digital domain and actually governs the functioning of computers. There is much more that needs to be discussed in this area--much more than eliminating freedom of digital communication.
For now, it is illegal, eats away at the livelihood of developers and limits the resources needed to further develop the software being pirated. It does no one any good, not even the thief himself.*
And I truly hope that people gain more wisdom when it comes to sharing files. One of the reasons my server is private is because some of the people on the public side are greedy and selfish. A lot of these people are the people that pirate software. I think this is partially why folks only relate it with piracy. Software is one of the highest profile public uses of hotline, and those who use it for legal purposes probably have less reason to be public. How many of these honest servers are out there, just not accounted for?
*Of course, it could be argued, as it was above, that students and companies that rely on their loyalty do benefit.
that said, I think that it is good for business. I believe this for many of the reasons listed in the post above.... particularly because it allows peope to become familiar with the software before they become old enough, independant enough, or wealthy enough to buy it. Also it spreads a general knnowledge base which is good for the industry in many many ways.
I know that there is the arguement about it hurting small companies and I can see this as true . . . and in a way I think that is awfull . . .
but, I still think that the majority of users will opt for legal and moral channels if they are viably and visibly available.
I admit I have used (use some) pirated software . . . I need to know alot of wares because I teach how to use them, so people can go on and pay for them as professionals. . . using these, I am able to learn something I otherwise would never be able to . . . and then the company in question would not get 30 - 60 potential new clients every semester!!!!. . . see, it's good for business... at least in this case.
Also, it helps spur innovation, in security, and also, in the simple upgrading of programs . . . this way the companies are assured continued profits by getting new goods before the pirated goods saturate the field.
but also, I pay for software when I can and when it is not exorbitanty prohibative to do so.
Most of the big companies rely on institutional and business buyers anyway . . . the little guy makes up an almost invisible fraction of sales . . .
and if pirating were to stop entirely the industry would change radically, how? I'm not sure, but it wouldn't be so dependant on an open knowledge base as it is now and that would probably hurt many of the companies that now cry foul.
There is also the tricky issue of the fact that the nature of software is information . . . and there is part of me that fully understands the, (somewhat shaky), arguement that all information should be free.
that said, I think that it is good for business. I believe this for many of the reasons listed in the post above.... particularly because it allows peope to become familiar with the software before they become old enough, independant enough, or wealthy enough to buy it. Also it spreads a general knnowledge base which is good for the industry in many many ways.
I know that there is the arguement about it hurting small companies and I can see this as true . . . and in a way I think that is awfull . . .
but, I still think that the majority of users will opt for legal and moral channels if they are viably and visibly available.
I admit I have used (use some) pirated software . . . I need to know alot of wares because I teach how to use them, so people can go on and pay for them as professionals. . . using these, I am able to learn something I otherwise would never be able to . . . and then the company in question would not get 30 - 60 potential new clients every semester!!!!. . . see, it's good for business... at least in this case.
Also, it helps spur innovation, in security, and also, in the simple upgrading of programs . . . this way the companies are assured continued profits by getting new goods before the pirated goods saturate the field.
but also, I pay for software when I can and when it is not exorbitanty prohibative to do so.
Most of the big companies rely on institutional and business buyers anyway . . . the little guy makes up an almost invisible fraction of sales . . .
and if pirating were to stop entirely the industry would change radically, how? I'm not sure, but it wouldn't be so dependant on an open knowledge base as it is now and that would probably hurt many of the companies that now cry foul.
There is also the tricky issue of the fact that the nature of software is information . . . and there is part of me that fully understands the, (somewhat shaky), arguement that all information should be free.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If all piracy stopped in every industry those industries would then get lax and not put any protection into their products. Granted this would take a prolonged period of no piracy, but eventually it would happen and then someone would see that they could get something for nothing and the cycle would start again. Maybe this is just a bad way of looking at it, but there will always be piracy. Just like there are always bank robberies, it's a law of the universe almost.
evangellydonut you have the best name since L33t Like Al Gore. Just had to congratulate you
Blue2kDave I agree with you. I'm also an idealist (if the economy could be truly separated from the government, if everyone used Macs, etc.) However I think companies actually profit from certain types of pirates. Pirates that are just one person at home playing around with Final Cut Pro or Photoshop but never make a cent off it for example. They like the software a lot and tell people, and it's free advertising. I have a friend who has PhotoShop 7 and he gave me it. I use it to scan in pictures of me or my friends and apply weird filters. I rave about advantages like Photoshop and FCP and other apps to PeeCee kids. Also look at it this way: many of these little pirates may grow up and work for an art firm or design office! They may use the skills they learned from their pirated Photoshop and apply them to a job where they use (a paid for) Photoshop.
Corporate piracy is where software companies lose money.
Now I don't consider myself a pirate, because I pay for the software I really use, be it shareware games like Exile/Avernum and EV Nova or Digital Performer 2.51 and GraphicConverter. I would never pirate shareware! That's just terrible. But to try out something expensive before buying it can be useful and even make you decide to spend money, like Napster! CD sales went down when Napster did.
I feel honest with myself. This is a good discussion! I just wanted to know how to use Carracho to get MP3 of some silly singles I'd never pay for, and to get other multimedia. I've gotten some really hilarious stuff off Carracho! Anyone ever seen I Think I'm A Clone Now, or the Think Different parody? The Switch ads are also generating quite a lot of funny parodies!
Sometimes stuff like DeCSS, used first just to make a Linux DVD player, will technically break the law. But is this really wrong!? It's not the gun, it's the person holding it. Incidentally I believe in strong gun control... I'm a bundle of contradictions now! That wasn't a good anology but you know what I mean. It would be like being mad at Carracho because people use it to pirate.
Blue2kDave what is this thing you keep referring to where you got accused of piracy?
This was quite a good discussion of piracy. I almost feel dirt about using Carracho now, but I don' t know... like I said I'm not selling warez or anything. Or making people pay to use my server
[quote]evangellydonut you have the best name since L33t Like Al Gore. Just had to congratulate you <hr></blockquote>
Thx!
[quote]I think companies actually profit from certain types of pirates.<hr></blockquote>
Yep, yep. At the time when I can't afford software , I use d/l stuff, but when I CAN afford it, I go out and bargain hunt. (using ADC-student to get Jaguar + cheap Mac for example) I can easily sit at some server for a few days and get 6C115 and not even pay the $100 or so for the ADC-student, but that's wrong...
[quote]I've gotten some really hilarious stuff off Carracho! Anyone ever seen I Think I'm A Clone Now, or the Think Different parody? The Switch ads are also generating quite a lot of funny parodies! <hr></blockquote>
Those are good! on a similar note, anyone seen those iBrator ads from a while back? One of the few things that survived multiple HD formats
Stuff like Region-Free DVD patches/software only increase DVD sales...for foreign companies sure, but that applies to people from outside of US buying Region 1 stuff too! Some of the "anti-piracy" laws/tricks are plain stupid...whichever senator that put the bill allowing copyright organizations to hack into your computer deserves to be shot IMHO...
Interesting, all of you, some very good points. I plan to copy some of the above comments and mail them out to a few different groups of friends.
I thought of one area that was not mentioned too much... but first, I suppose I must put forward my place in it all. This will hurt.
I pirate. eek. I said it.
_Music, I feel little obligation to purchase, unless they are small-time/local artist/made at home productions. All common reasons stated above, and all over the net, that industry needs to be shaken hard and let the prices fall, and payment to the artists.
_Video, I see some in theatre (WAY overpriced) then on my computer, then if I really like it? I buy it. But if I don't really like it, and I watch it on the comp (divx, avi etc..) then the main groups I am stealing from are Rental places. I don't worry about them.
_Software, this is very tricky, which is why it is the one focused on in this discussion. I find most 'Pirates' are really 'Collectors'. Its true! They like .. stuff, then they collect it all, and put it away, OR make it available for other 'collectors' to download. Most of them never look at the software more then once. The rest of the people tend to need it. I myself, am a designer. I NEED these programs (Photoshop, ATM, illustrator, flash and about 20 others), OS's, and utilities. If I don?t have them, I fail. I can't afford them normally, and not even with the student pricing. (NOTE: the student pricing is a joke.. as it only takes off a few hundred dollars, and, in Canada at least, you cannot use that software to make money..most students try to do freelance in my field before graduating). Now, when I graduate from this most recent program I am in, I will enter a company (and thus any programs I use at home, are not for profit), or I will go private (in which case I will BUY them!). The real threat for these programs is not Hotlines, or Carracho (kazaa, Morpheus, limewire, winmx, etc..) it is large companies who buy a small number of programs.. then install them on a large number of machines. People downloading the files are such a small number of people possibly stealing money, that the big companies don't really care (much). And of those people stealing, most of them would never buy it, because they don't need it. The pirating controversy is a moral thing, not an economical one. No more pity for the big companies (well, maybe sometimes).
We can agree or disagree all we wish, but in the end, very few companies truly ?hurt? from the mosquito sized bite we collectively take. File shaing is stealing, stealing is illegal, but in this case, is illegal mean immoral? Is the world we are living in moving toward a different economy and these are pioneers, or will nothing change, and they are simply thieves?
Now, the whole reason for me posting this. There is one group of software that does NOT lose its cash from big companies sharing software illegally, it mostly loses it from sharing programs. You know it, you love it, GAMES. One of the few products that is made primarily for youth and file sharers. The game producers, I feel sorry for. But at the same time... they must be making some kind of profit, every year there are more companies, more games. The only benefit I see them having, is/are free mods made by people to keep the popularity of the games up. Maybe if they share their secret with the other software companies, there would be fewer debates about such topics. Any ideas on this one group?
I see why some people pirate, and I don't condemn them.. I see why others pirate, and I do.
Now just so people don't think I am totally evil, I will say that pay sites, upload to download FTP, and 'street' hawkers are scum. If its an illegal product you have, leave it that way. don't get into dealing as well. Free information is one thing, trying to profit from an ideology (or trying to profit from a poor student who needs it) is just wrong.
I hope I have not stepped on too many toes. Moderators, I will edit my text if I said something against the moral fibre of this forum.
Comments
<strong>What is the 'tone' of that signature? I always thought that that quote is good because it reveals how Fascism is not such a simple tyrrany but has a strange supportive relationship to corporate power. . . it makes it understandable that it is something to watch out for even in a supposedly free-market environment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think he's saying there's a strange contrast between the poster's point in his posts (that is, don't pirate software and don't even talk about something that COULD possibly be used to pirate software) and that of his sig (corporations are bad, or something like that). It's just an interesting mix of messages.
I actually thought about this exact issue when I was posting, and how my anti-piracy stance and anti-corporate stance work together. My personal view is that we are living in a world of shrinking freedoms, where more and more of our lives are monitored and tracked by large corporations that are growing more and more above the law. These multi-national institutions pose a serious threat to democracy and freedom, hence my signature. Corporations by their very nature are not democratic. They are about control and profit. Fascism is about control as well. Hence the analogy. That is not to say all groups of people working as a company are evil, but that the unchecked power of the largest multinationals is a threat to what I see as free society.
That being said, I don't think the solution to an evil is to abandon one's own sense of ethics and morality. Many of the programs that I see pirated are made by honest people who must make ends meet in our current economic system. Stealing from them is not battling the system, but rather giving in to the sense of corruption one sees all around them. To battle the system, I believe you have to spread information. Information that can be used to affect changes in our system of government.
I admit that I have somewhat of an idealist view of the world, and I can see how someone could see a conflict between the two views. I do not think that all people who use pirated software are bad, many people use it as a defacto demo. My initial reaction to this thread was not so much a total anti-carracho point of view, but rather a procedural issue on the AI boards. As I said earlier, I was taken aback by some recent responses to a question I had and was annoyed that this topic was getting a pass. I probably should have been clearer.
Thanks to all for their thoughtful questions and observations on my posts, it is what makes this forum so much fun to be a part of.
The reason I react so strongly to your statements is because they are so dangerous...
[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
<strong>Anime servers are everywhere now!</strong><hr></blockquote>
lol we all hog the bandwidth of our universities!
<strong>There is in fact a conflict between your expressed views and your actions. If you have a problem with restrictions on freedom, why would you attack the freedom itself? The channel distributing the software should not be eleminated esspecially since the existence of that channel is fundemental to the distribution of digital files. Piracy can be dealt with in other, less intrusive ways. You have basically condemned sharing of digital information in general while believing you are protecting copyright holders. That attitude is quickly becoming the most dangerous thing to freedom of communication of any type in the digital domain. There are many other ways to stop software piracy and those should be attempted first.
The reason I react so strongly to your statements is because they are so dangerous...
[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, nowhere did I suggest shutting down any system. Nor did I "condemn" sharing of digital information in a broad sense. I simply pointed out that discussion of pirated warez on this particular forum is not consistently monitored. Also, I stated that in this emerging world of shared information, people must take on some personal responsibility for their actions. I truly believe in the power of P2P networks to disseminate information that can be used to change the system. However, that power can be used for ill purpose. The solution is not external control over these networks, but rather personal control and respect.
I don't see how that view is dangerous.
[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: blue2kdave ]</p>
To paraphrase someone really old, "to live outside the law you must be honest."
I see nothing wrong with his sig and his post. Many other types of software, other than those written by nasty corporations are also pirated. Small developers, and with mp3s, indie artists also get ripped off. And until there is some consensus in the on-line community about what it is one should steal
Note he has not indicated that all HL/Carracho servers be DOS'ed and shut down, or that server owners be arrested. That we leave to our democratically elected and corporately bought government. Expressing ones personal opinions and ethics should not be mistaken for the abridgement of freedom.
<strong>
To paraphrase someone really old, "to live outside the law you must be honest."
I see nothing wrong with his sig and his post. Many other types of software, other than those written by nasty corporations are also pirated. Small developers, and with mp3s, indie artists also get ripped off. And until there is some consensus in the on-line community about what it is one should steal
Note he has not indicated that all HL/Carracho servers be DOS'ed and shut down, or that server owners be arrested. That we leave to our democratically elected and corporately bought government. Expressing ones personal opinions and ethics should not be mistaken for the abridgement of freedom.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you cowerd, your reply is actually better than mine.
While you haven't said that P2P systems be shut down, you have said that mere discussion of file sharing software should be moderated and/or censored and you have indicated that that the same discussion is an admission of guilt.
And PS
Musicians make little money off recorded material, if they do at all. And this is on all levels of the industry. I know this from being in it, but there is more than enough written about it for years now that it is common knowledge. It is not the artists being hurt by sharing of MP3s, it is the larger of the labels. And before you have pity on these large labels, it would be a VERY good idea to do some research and see how the industry actually works. It is nothing short of shocking and is unlike anything else.
[quote] Dave, you reacted immediately to the mention of this software by accusing it of solely being used for piracy and then brought the thread to the attention of Jonathan.<hr></blockquote>
You are right, it did seem I was purely associating the software with piracy, which should not be the case. However, you might concede that these services can and are used for major pirating. I must admit to being biased, because in my experience the primary reason for carracho etc is piracy. However I am willing to acknowledge the legitimate purposes these systems can serve.
[quote] While you haven't said that P2P systems be shut down, you have said that mere discussion of file sharing software should be moderated and/or censored and you have indicated that that the same discussion is an admission of guilt.
<hr></blockquote>
My comments on the discussion of file sharing on this forum (AI) were in response to a previous experience which I have mentioned. If the mods want to allow the discussion of piracy or the methods used for that, great, but just be consistent. Note, you are right, this thread was not about piracy per se, it was a leap of logic on my part to make that assumption. I also will not make that assumption in the future, thanks to your responses.
[quote]And PS
Musicians make little money off recorded material, if they do at all. <hr></blockquote>
You won't get any argument from me there. I have worked in the music industry for over 15 years, and I have seen firsthand the way the labels screw the artists. I also believe the industry is missing out on a great opportunity to evolve with the new technology. It would be nice though to somehow let the artist decide what to share or not share. I myself have lost many sales to MP3s, but have also gotten some because of them.
This is also the first mention of the music biz in this thread, so I assume you weren't responding directly to me.
Giant, I respect your opinions, and actually share many of your concerns. My mistake was in the broad generalization of these software services. However, I still stick to my opinion that these services are not unarguably good. The solution as I stated is not censorship, but personal responsibility.
I like hotline a lot. There is a lot of piracy on it, but it does have many honest uses. I use a private server shared by a small community of musicians for the sharing of files described in my above post. Since we are seperated geographically it is very useful. Even with the technical drawbacks, I have yet to find something as universal and streamlined.
Again, I'm sorry to junp down your throat, but I do feel strongly about this. I understand why you assumed the discussion would turn south, and I wouldn't have been surprised if it had. I just hope that any strikes against piracy don't have any collateral damage, as they say...
And the music comment was in response to cowerd's post. sorry I didn't put that in...
[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
<strong>
lol we all hog the bandwidth of our universities!
All my anime goes to CDs. =P I don't see the pull in spending that much on Hard Drives. Of course I don't have university bandwidth. That's all I really download nowadays. Back in the day I pirated great games like Civilization 2, which I bought when they released the multiplayer version.
Note : most anime that is downloaded is not piracy. most anime are fansubs that are legal to my knowledge since they are not licensed by any companies in America. The only times that I have ever seen anyone get chased by the Japanese companies that make these animes, is when someone is selling them. Of course, when the animes get licensed the fansubbers stop subbing them, at least the legal ones do, then the illegal ones pick up series from there.
There are a lot of holes in the arguements that some companies like to use against piracy. The one that I love is the figure of 'sales lost'. They never take into account that some middle school kiddie that downloaded that program to be leet never would have bought that had he not been able to pirate it. This also goes for expensive products in colleges. Take a graphical designer and photoshop. Even with the educational discount $300 is a lot. If the graphical designer in the making can't afford photoshop and doesn't pirate it, he will use something along the lines of GIMP, which is free. Now when he leaves college, and goes to design he will use what is most comfortable for him and what he knows. Now, this is the GIMP. What if he had had photoshop? What if he had pirated photoshop? He would want to use that, and when he got to the professional market he would have to purchase it. No companies would let him use a pirated version of the program, at least any companies worth their weight. In this repsect, piracy is lowering the barrier to entry into using photoshop as a professional once you leave college. In effect this is INCREASING sales for Adobe. This works the same for MicroSoft. Do you think that all the people using XP within the first 3 months shelled out $200+ dollars for it? By allowing some piracy, MS helps the adoption rate climb. The people with the pirated versions spawn more people that see it and want to buy it and so forth. And don't tell me about 'product activation'. That was a half-asses attempt to end piracy. All that does is stop the normal Joe Average Users from installing XP on 3 computers from 1 CD. And the service pack that is coming out already has the beta version cracked. How long will it take the final version to be cracked?
As for the movie industry, they are a bunch of whiny bitches if you excuse my language. They want the computer industry to make changes for THEM. That is lazy and uncalled for. All of the movies that come out before they are released in theaters are 'camera in theater' deals. These are employees of some company in the movie. Somewhere in the chain of command. I think that they should sort out their internal problems before they tell the computer industry that it's their fault. And as for DVD and DeCSS, it's their fault that they used such a crappy encryption scheme. They need to change it and deal with it. I don't like this idea that they want to tell me how *I* can use what I have bought. They are trodding on software EULA territory. They want to tell me that I am leasing the movie from them. It's not surprising that DivX failed ( the DVD rental scheme, not the video codec ).
Well, that's my rant for the day. Feel free to disagree and argue me on any points, though I think we should take this to a different forum for such, maybe fireside chat or apple outsider. Post here if you do since I don't check fireside chat.
But companies do pirate software, and in large amounts. This goes for all media industries and ranges from installing on multiple machines to flat-out kracks of less used applications. It is very common, though it appears to me that piracy in companies is declining.
I also remember a recent report--that I think I actually found here on AI--that showed that most piracy studies were including shareware and freeware, grouping them with pirated software in the final tally. So I'm not sure anyone has even remotely accurate figures on piracy.
I'm not sure why connecting multiple computers brings out the worst in people, from widespread pornography to digital theft, but something needs to change.
I think that change is going to have to take place in our perception and handling of copyright. There is a major overhaul on the horizon. If you want to see the horrible Big Brother future that awaits us if we start placing limits on file sharing and digital transmission in gerneral, just go to your local university library and check out some online journals and electronic resources. There is some scary shit happening in that world, to the point that many of them are simply not usable. Everybody is pissed off, from the writer to the reader to the library, except for the publishers who are simply confused
Software is different because it is solely in the digital domain and actually governs the functioning of computers. There is much more that needs to be discussed in this area--much more than eliminating freedom of digital communication.
For now, it is illegal, eats away at the livelihood of developers and limits the resources needed to further develop the software being pirated. It does no one any good, not even the thief himself.*
And I truly hope that people gain more wisdom when it comes to sharing files. One of the reasons my server is private is because some of the people on the public side are greedy and selfish. A lot of these people are the people that pirate software. I think this is partially why folks only relate it with piracy. Software is one of the highest profile public uses of hotline, and those who use it for legal purposes probably have less reason to be public. How many of these honest servers are out there, just not accounted for?
*Of course, it could be argued, as it was above, that students and companies that rely on their loyalty do benefit.
[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
that said, I think that it is good for business. I believe this for many of the reasons listed in the post above.... particularly because it allows peope to become familiar with the software before they become old enough, independant enough, or wealthy enough to buy it. Also it spreads a general knnowledge base which is good for the industry in many many ways.
I know that there is the arguement about it hurting small companies and I can see this as true . . . and in a way I think that is awfull . . .
but, I still think that the majority of users will opt for legal and moral channels if they are viably and visibly available.
I admit I have used (use some) pirated software . . . I need to know alot of wares because I teach how to use them, so people can go on and pay for them as professionals. . . using these, I am able to learn something I otherwise would never be able to . . . and then the company in question would not get 30 - 60 potential new clients every semester!!!!. . . see, it's good for business... at least in this case.
Also, it helps spur innovation, in security, and also, in the simple upgrading of programs . . . this way the companies are assured continued profits by getting new goods before the pirated goods saturate the field.
but also, I pay for software when I can and when it is not exorbitanty prohibative to do so.
Most of the big companies rely on institutional and business buyers anyway . . . the little guy makes up an almost invisible fraction of sales . . .
and if pirating were to stop entirely the industry would change radically, how? I'm not sure, but it wouldn't be so dependant on an open knowledge base as it is now and that would probably hurt many of the companies that now cry foul.
There is also the tricky issue of the fact that the nature of software is information . . . and there is part of me that fully understands the, (somewhat shaky), arguement that all information should be free.
<strong>piracy is stealing
that said, I think that it is good for business. I believe this for many of the reasons listed in the post above.... particularly because it allows peope to become familiar with the software before they become old enough, independant enough, or wealthy enough to buy it. Also it spreads a general knnowledge base which is good for the industry in many many ways.
I know that there is the arguement about it hurting small companies and I can see this as true . . . and in a way I think that is awfull . . .
but, I still think that the majority of users will opt for legal and moral channels if they are viably and visibly available.
I admit I have used (use some) pirated software . . . I need to know alot of wares because I teach how to use them, so people can go on and pay for them as professionals. . . using these, I am able to learn something I otherwise would never be able to . . . and then the company in question would not get 30 - 60 potential new clients every semester!!!!. . . see, it's good for business... at least in this case.
Also, it helps spur innovation, in security, and also, in the simple upgrading of programs . . . this way the companies are assured continued profits by getting new goods before the pirated goods saturate the field.
but also, I pay for software when I can and when it is not exorbitanty prohibative to do so.
Most of the big companies rely on institutional and business buyers anyway . . . the little guy makes up an almost invisible fraction of sales . . .
and if pirating were to stop entirely the industry would change radically, how? I'm not sure, but it wouldn't be so dependant on an open knowledge base as it is now and that would probably hurt many of the companies that now cry foul.
There is also the tricky issue of the fact that the nature of software is information . . . and there is part of me that fully understands the, (somewhat shaky), arguement that all information should be free.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If all piracy stopped in every industry those industries would then get lax and not put any protection into their products. Granted this would take a prolonged period of no piracy, but eventually it would happen and then someone would see that they could get something for nothing and the cycle would start again. Maybe this is just a bad way of looking at it, but there will always be piracy. Just like there are always bank robberies, it's a law of the universe almost.
Blue2kDave I agree with you. I'm also an idealist (if the economy could be truly separated from the government, if everyone used Macs, etc.) However I think companies actually profit from certain types of pirates. Pirates that are just one person at home playing around with Final Cut Pro or Photoshop but never make a cent off it for example. They like the software a lot and tell people, and it's free advertising. I have a friend who has PhotoShop 7 and he gave me it. I use it to scan in pictures of me or my friends and apply weird filters. I rave about advantages like Photoshop and FCP and other apps to PeeCee kids. Also look at it this way: many of these little pirates may grow up and work for an art firm or design office! They may use the skills they learned from their pirated Photoshop and apply them to a job where they use (a paid for) Photoshop.
Corporate piracy is where software companies lose money.
Now I don't consider myself a pirate, because I pay for the software I really use, be it shareware games like Exile/Avernum and EV Nova or Digital Performer 2.51 and GraphicConverter. I would never pirate shareware! That's just terrible. But to try out something expensive before buying it can be useful and even make you decide to spend money, like Napster! CD sales went down when Napster did.
I feel honest with myself. This is a good discussion! I just wanted to know how to use Carracho to get MP3 of some silly singles I'd never pay for, and to get other multimedia. I've gotten some really hilarious stuff off Carracho! Anyone ever seen I Think I'm A Clone Now, or the Think Different parody? The Switch ads are also generating quite a lot of funny parodies!
Sometimes stuff like DeCSS, used first just to make a Linux DVD player, will technically break the law. But is this really wrong!? It's not the gun, it's the person holding it. Incidentally I believe in strong gun control... I'm a bundle of contradictions now! That wasn't a good anology but you know what I mean. It would be like being mad at Carracho because people use it to pirate.
Blue2kDave what is this thing you keep referring to where you got accused of piracy?
This was quite a good discussion of piracy. I almost feel dirt about using Carracho now, but I don' t know... like I said I'm not selling warez or anything. Or making people pay to use my server
Thx!
[quote]I think companies actually profit from certain types of pirates.<hr></blockquote>
Yep, yep. At the time when I can't afford software , I use d/l stuff, but when I CAN afford it, I go out and bargain hunt. (using ADC-student to get Jaguar + cheap Mac for example) I can easily sit at some server for a few days and get 6C115 and not even pay the $100 or so for the ADC-student, but that's wrong...
[quote]I've gotten some really hilarious stuff off Carracho! Anyone ever seen I Think I'm A Clone Now, or the Think Different parody? The Switch ads are also generating quite a lot of funny parodies!
Those are good! on a similar note, anyone seen those iBrator ads from a while back? One of the few things that survived multiple HD formats
Stuff like Region-Free DVD patches/software only increase DVD sales...for foreign companies sure, but that applies to people from outside of US buying Region 1 stuff too! Some of the "anti-piracy" laws/tricks are plain stupid...whichever senator that put the bill allowing copyright organizations to hack into your computer deserves to be shot IMHO...
I thought of one area that was not mentioned too much... but first, I suppose I must put forward my place in it all. This will hurt.
I pirate. eek. I said it.
_Music, I feel little obligation to purchase, unless they are small-time/local artist/made at home productions. All common reasons stated above, and all over the net, that industry needs to be shaken hard and let the prices fall, and payment to the artists.
_Video, I see some in theatre (WAY overpriced) then on my computer, then if I really like it? I buy it. But if I don't really like it, and I watch it on the comp (divx, avi etc..) then the main groups I am stealing from are Rental places. I don't worry about them.
_Software, this is very tricky, which is why it is the one focused on in this discussion. I find most 'Pirates' are really 'Collectors'. Its true! They like .. stuff, then they collect it all, and put it away, OR make it available for other 'collectors' to download. Most of them never look at the software more then once. The rest of the people tend to need it. I myself, am a designer. I NEED these programs (Photoshop, ATM, illustrator, flash and about 20 others), OS's, and utilities. If I don?t have them, I fail. I can't afford them normally, and not even with the student pricing. (NOTE: the student pricing is a joke.. as it only takes off a few hundred dollars, and, in Canada at least, you cannot use that software to make money..most students try to do freelance in my field before graduating). Now, when I graduate from this most recent program I am in, I will enter a company (and thus any programs I use at home, are not for profit), or I will go private (in which case I will BUY them!). The real threat for these programs is not Hotlines, or Carracho (kazaa, Morpheus, limewire, winmx, etc..) it is large companies who buy a small number of programs.. then install them on a large number of machines. People downloading the files are such a small number of people possibly stealing money, that the big companies don't really care (much). And of those people stealing, most of them would never buy it, because they don't need it. The pirating controversy is a moral thing, not an economical one. No more pity for the big companies (well, maybe sometimes).
We can agree or disagree all we wish, but in the end, very few companies truly ?hurt? from the mosquito sized bite we collectively take. File shaing is stealing, stealing is illegal, but in this case, is illegal mean immoral? Is the world we are living in moving toward a different economy and these are pioneers, or will nothing change, and they are simply thieves?
Now, the whole reason for me posting this. There is one group of software that does NOT lose its cash from big companies sharing software illegally, it mostly loses it from sharing programs. You know it, you love it, GAMES. One of the few products that is made primarily for youth and file sharers. The game producers, I feel sorry for. But at the same time... they must be making some kind of profit, every year there are more companies, more games. The only benefit I see them having, is/are free mods made by people to keep the popularity of the games up. Maybe if they share their secret with the other software companies, there would be fewer debates about such topics. Any ideas on this one group?
I see why some people pirate, and I don't condemn them.. I see why others pirate, and I do.
Now just so people don't think I am totally evil, I will say that pay sites, upload to download FTP, and 'street' hawkers are scum. If its an illegal product you have, leave it that way. don't get into dealing as well. Free information is one thing, trying to profit from an ideology (or trying to profit from a poor student who needs it) is just wrong.
I hope I have not stepped on too many toes. Moderators, I will edit my text if I said something against the moral fibre of this forum.
Thanks all! great posts!
noc,