BTW, spindler and marvin, suicide it rarely a calculated decision. Most of the time it's due to mental illness like bipolar disorder, temporary painful situations and depression, all of which are treatable and solvable. Do you guys even realize that close to 1 in 5 people with bipolar disorder kill themselves and between 25%-50% try?
Mr. giant, don't get me wrong, I would guess that 85%-90% of successful suicides are definitely people who could have gotten over problems or moved on to a happy life. Perhaps I jumped the gun. I don't mean to downplay these 85%-90%.
But you say I am talking in "vague childish terms". YOU are the one who is denying facts and data. You say "What, we shouldn't help people out? We should just let them kill themselves?" I got news for you. There are lots of people who have NO ONE who would really do anything or care about about them if they tried to kill themselves." Again, your response has some built in naivete to it.
You say I am talking in vague terms. I am talking in the most concrete terms possible. I am talking about people that I know. Are you saying there is NO ONE on earth who at 40 has never really been loved by either their original family or the people they chose to date? Are you saying there are NO dysfunctional people that always date losers and never are attracted to sane people? Are you saying their is NO ONE who has not been abused by every person they have every dated? Are you saying there is NO ONE who's kids are all on drugs or in jail and will regret that for the rest of their lives? Are you saying there is NO ONE who isn't tired of their $6.50 an hour job that they have to work 50 hours a week to pay their rent? Are you saying there are NO poor people that get tired of living in a bad neighborhood with a completely broken down, miserable family?
Unless you respond DIRECTLY to what people should do in these scenarios, I won't bother replying. I am mentioning specifics, and you are talking in generalities.
You said that you and your wife or whatever were contemplating graduate school at 26. At 26, lots of people are contemplating working for $7 an hour for the rest of their lives. Lots of people are realizing that they will never have a loving relationship, just like their parents didn't have one.
You vaguely called my "simple" while not answering the scenarios I posed about drug addiction and untreatable mental illness, also.
There are lots of people who have NO ONE who would really do anything or care about about them if they tried to kill themselves.
So? Does that make their life worthless? How about they try and find a friend? Oh, social anxiety disorder, you say? How about get into therapy then? Isn't that a little more constructive and smart than not giving oneself a chance at all by committing suicide?
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Are you saying there is NO ONE on earth who at 40 has never really been loved by either their original family or the people they chose to date? Are you saying there are NO dysfunctional people that always date losers and never are attracted to sane people? Are you saying their is NO ONE who has not been abused by every person they have every dated? Are you saying there is NO ONE who's kids are all on drugs or in jail and will regret that for the rest of their lives? Are you saying there is NO ONE who isn't tired of their $6.50 an hour job that they have to work 50 hours a week to pay their rent? Are you saying there are NO poor people that get tired of living in a bad neighborhood with a completely broken down, miserable family?
Your philosophy relies on an unrealistic and idealized model of human decision-making that neglects the actual real-world causes of suicide and supports it with shallow, imaginary hypothetical situations.
I sure am not trying to downplay the severity of suicide, nor do I believe that such news isn't saddening. It seems to me that we are merely arguing semantics.
No, you're just being a dick for the sake of doing so. Sorry, you are. I fail to understand why you need to dissect every point in this thread and try to point out "contradictions" in what I'm saying, especially in a threat like this. You must have a lot of time on your hands.
I've had to personally deal with 4 suicides in the past 10 years. The most recent was a week ago friday. He left behind two young sons, a loving family and jeopordized a whole company, including 80 jobs and millions of investors' dollars. Remember, insurance and contracts, even business ones, many times are voided by suicide. That's just the tip of the iceberg, and it's just one example.
But who's stupider, the person who killed himself or the people who based their lives around him? What people have to understand is that in the grand scheme of things we are disconnected from one another and we merely interact. We have no deep seated obligation towards each other. I'm not saying we shouldn't help each other, I'm just stating the reality is that we are not obligated to.
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Originally Posted by giant
No, I'm saying that your unrealistic philosophy is dangrous.
I agree that it's dangerous but not that it is unrealistic. I actually think that it is more in tune with reality.
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Originally Posted by giant
Right. Instead of helping people you care about overcome their problems, you tell them, "yeah, your life sucks. just go kill yourself."
Again you make the assumption that everyone can be helped. That's just not true. Imagine a rape victim. Do you think that any number of meaningless phrases like 'chin up champ' or 'it could be worse' are really going to make a difference? Yes, some people can get over their problems but others can't.
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Originally Posted by giant
Advocating suicide for people who are just unhappy with a situation they are in is plain fucking stupid. End of story.
Then present an intelligent solution.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
I appreciate your concern, but this is certainly not the right place to discuss that.
On the contrary, if you know of a way that people who have suicidal tendencies can get help, it may be beneficial to others.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
You are given an opportunity. Why waste it? Is there nothing at all that makes you happy any more? Looking at the sunshine? Playing a game? Watching a movie? Hanging out with old friends? Getting entertained? And if there is, even the slightest bit of positiveness, isn't that alone worth just living one day more?
Firstly, an opportunity to do what? Have a career, a family, friends, money? I personally don't place any value on any of those things.
Is there anything that makes me happy? Not really. Sure, when I watch a funny movie, it makes me laugh but does that give my life as a whole any meaning or purpose? I don't think so.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that, but I'm still curious about possible scenarios for that.
Scenarios where suicide would be the better choice would be in situations where the prospect of continuing life is worse than ending it. This can usually be countered by pro-lifers by saying that you never know what will happen. But yet again, it assumes a positive outlook no matter how bad things are and I don't think people should be forced to pretend life is good if their's is not.
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Originally Posted by giant
BTW, spindler and marvin, suicide it rarely a calculated decision. Most of the time it's due to mental illness like bipolar disorder, temporary painful situations and depression, all of which are treatable and solvable.
How do you solve a problem of someone who has lost a loved one? You can try and convince them that they don't need them but there isn't a solution.
This just perfectly illustrates how your philosophy is totally and utterly disconnected from real world.
In what way? You keep making derogatory comments without explaining yourself. If you can't answer any of the important questions presented then maybe it's your philosphy that's disconnected.
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Originally Posted by Flounder
Well clearly they should kill themselves too! Dumb bastards...
If that was sarcasm then thanks.
Otherwise, please don't make personal attacks just because someone's opinion differs from yours.
I've been in quite a few threads on this subject and it's interesting how the same replies come up. The majority of people come along with the idea that having opinions like Spindler and I is generally stupid and totally wrong and yet few people come up with valid reasons why. Do you guys really think that abuse is going to convince anyone to think differently?
'I'm right because you have a retarded philosophy about life.'
If you don't answer anything else, then as I said, present a solution to this:
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Originally Posted by giant
Advocating suicide for people who are just unhappy with a situation they are in is plain fucking stupid. End of story.
Let's say someone is unhappy with everything or at least most of the things required to make life worthwhile. What is your solution?
Let's say someone is unhappy with everything or at least most of the things required to make life worthwhile. What is your solution?
That someone should make a two-column table: one column lists everything he's happy with, and the other everything he's unhappy with.
If the first column is virtually empty, he probably needs psychological counseling. If there is something very worthwhile in the first column, that someone probably needs to learn to focus on this thing more and perhaps explore more possibilities related to it.
Meanwhile, the items in the other column will become increasingly negligible in their mind.
If the first column is virtually empty, he probably needs psychological counseling.
Ok good, that's a reasonable suggestion. However, what would psychological counselling achieve? Basically, you just tell a stranger what your problems are. Ultimately, your recovery is dependant on your own willingness to accept the advice they give. Without that, would you agree that there are cases that will not have a solution other than suicide?
Strangers can't give your life a purpose, they can only suggest ways in which you might find one.
Ok good, that's a reasonable suggestion. However, what would psychological counselling achieve? Basically, you just tell a stranger what your problems are.
No, no.
If someone has an almost (or entirely) empty left column, i.e., if someone cannot think of virtually anything he can do that can make him happy (e.g. "I used to play the violin, and I used to have fun doing it, and I haven't done that in years, maybe I should it again"), then it's most likely a sign of a mental block. That is, there are things that would make him happy, but due to a number of reasons, the person cannot recall them, or has a distorted memory of them (e.g., "I hated playing the violin!", even when one in fact did enjoy it). The usual cause for something like this is trauma; that is, a terrible event in the past may overshadow, cloud or distort one's perspective on one's own past and current life.
What I'm getting at is this: the person would start telling stories from his life that he might regard as dull, "normal" or even negative. A good trauma therapist would listen to them and ask the person questions that tend to throw the patient completely off-guard, in a "I never thought of it like that!" manner. This kind of epiphany can help the person remember that the left column of the list could really be a lot fuller, and that some entries of the right column actually aren't so negative after all.
This is not a matter of manipulation. In fact, the opposite is the case: one's mind has manipulated itself throughout the years, and the goal is to undo that harm, to clear one's thoughts, and to ultimately reconsider one's views on life.
There are manipulative solutions, too, most importantly neuro-linguistic programming (NLP). In an almost eerie 1984-esque way, this works by convincing yourself repeatedly of an assertion until you start completely believing it. The purpose is to balance out fears with strengths. Consider a person you're afraid of, e.g. a high authority (your boss's boss, or something). Your mind might inadvertently create an image of that person that makes the person look bigger (quite literally so) than they really are. Through NLP, you create a counter-image whereby this boss's boss is actually the size of a dwarf. Once you have convinced yourself that this person really is tiny, your fear of them will diminish.
NLP, of course, is highly controversial. It works for some, but not for others (not for me, either). The better, but more long-term and more difficult method is the one I stated above, i.e. trauma therapy.
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Ultimately, your recovery is dependant on your own willingness to accept the advice they give.
Absolutely. If you are completely unwilling to accept advice, however, that really is your own loss. Sorry to be blunt, but that's the way it is. All suicidal persons I know are actually quite willing to listen to advice. They may disagree with it, but they certainly have open ears.
But those who don't? Well, frankly, they haven't sunken low enough. I know how harsh that sounds; I hear it thrown at myself over and over. But most of the time it's true. If you're unwilling to make anything out of your life, or even to listen to someone's advice how you might be able to accomplish anything positive at all, nobody aside from yourself will be able to help in any way at all. Psychological research can only go so far. The one person who understands you best is always yourself; you just sometimes "don't know it", and that's when you need professional help.
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Without that, would you agree that there are cases that will not have a solution other than suicide?
It's a cop-out, not a solution. It's the thought process of 1) my life isn't worth anything, 2) I'm not willing to listen to anyone who might be able to convince me otherwise, 3) I'm right anyways, everyone else is wrong, 4) therefore, I'm wasting my time, 5) let's go commit suicide.
1) is already wrong, but many make that mistake. I certainly fall into that trap a lot. However, there's always 2), and that's where things get interesting. If you're willing to "Think Different" (hah), even for one brief moment, and listen to something somebody else has to say, no matter how crazy it may sound, it could make a huge difference. And if not, well, tough.
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Strangers can't give your life a purpose, they can only suggest ways in which you might find one.
Yes, absolutely. But every life does have a purpose, no matter how hard one might convince oneself otherwise. Suicide can only follow years over years of negative inadvertent self-manipulation. A person's job is it to turn that around.
But who's stupider, the person who killed himself or the people who based their lives around him? What people have to understand is that in the grand scheme of things we are disconnected from one another and we merely interact. We have no deep seated obligation towards each other. I'm not saying we shouldn't help each other, I'm just stating the reality is that we are not obligated to.
I agree that it's dangerous but not that it is unrealistic. I actually think that it is more in tune with reality.
Again you make the assumption that everyone can be helped. That's just not true. Imagine a rape victim. Do you think that any number of meaningless phrases like 'chin up champ' or 'it could be worse' are really going to make a difference? Yes, some people can get over their problems but others can't.
Then present an intelligent solution.
On the contrary, if you know of a way that people who have suicidal tendencies can get help, it may be beneficial to others.
Firstly, an opportunity to do what? Have a career, a family, friends, money? I personally don't place any value on any of those things.
Is there anything that makes me happy? Not really. Sure, when I watch a funny movie, it makes me laugh but does that give my life as a whole any meaning or purpose? I don't think so.
Scenarios where suicide would be the better choice would be in situations where the prospect of continuing life is worse than ending it. This can usually be countered by pro-lifers by saying that you never know what will happen. But yet again, it assumes a positive outlook no matter how bad things are and I don't think people should be forced to pretend life is good if their's is not.
How do you solve a problem of someone who has lost a loved one? You can try and convince them that they don't need them but there isn't a solution.
A good trauma therapist would listen to them and ask the person questions that tend to throw the patient completely off-guard, in a "I never thought of it like that!" manner. This kind of epiphany can help the person remember that the left column of the list could really be a lot fuller, and that some entries of the right column actually aren't so negative after all.
It seems to me that such therapy would only work for people who haven't thought things through. Your suggestion of people seeing things differently suggests to me they haven't made an informed decision. Like I said, I can understand that there will be cases like that but there will also be cases of intelligent people who make a clear cut and well thought out decision.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
This is not a matter of manipulation. In fact, the opposite is the case: one's mind has manipulated itself throughout the years, and the goal is to undo that harm, to clear one's thoughts, and to ultimately reconsider one's views on life.
Isn't every interaction we make manipulation to a certain extent? One way or another when we discuss anything, we are trying to make each other see that our own opinions are valid. That requires some degree of psychological manipulation.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
Absolutely. If you are completely unwilling to accept advice, however, that really is your own loss.
Not if you have nothing to lose. Also, accepting advice is something you can only do so much before you accept that you've heard all the advice on offer but disagree. Unfortunately, disagreement is often not an option. I can draw such direct parallels with this and religious people. Day in day out, my relatives try to persuade me that their views on religion are right and when I disagree, they just say well if you're not prepared to listen, you're never going to understand what we do and assume that I must have been tarnished by some negative influence.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
It's a cop-out, not a solution.
Well, on the other side of the coin, you could call life a cop-out from suicide because you are too scared to come to terms with your own mortality. A solution is merely an answer to a problem. If life is a problem then suicide can offer a solution. It may not be the best in everyone's eyes but the option is there.
What I'd be interested to hear is how people would react if they heard that a child molestor had committed suicide. I often find that people react a little differently when it comes to people they feel deserve to die.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
Yes, absolutely. But every life does have a purpose, no matter how hard one might convince oneself otherwise.
I don't agree with that I'm afraid. When you see young children die needlessly, you start to wonder if any life has a purpose. It seems to me the only purpose humanity has managed to find is to exist.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
Suicide can only follow years over years of negative inadvertent self-manipulation. A person's job is it to turn that around.
I could actually agree with that. I think in a lot of cases, it would be a result of thinking a certain way. I know that I never used to have the opinions I do now, it is only after about 10 years of expanding that initial view that I've reached this point.
But the thing is, I don't consider my viewpoint to be negative so much as facing up to reality. In a way, most upbringings are an unrealistically positive external manipulation what with all the Disney movies. Contrast that with the upbringing that terrorists give their kids of hatred and you can see that all kids are manipulated to thinking like their peers.
The reality that I began to see is that I'm not the smartest person, I'm not the best looking, I'm not the nicest person and there are inherent limitations placed on me from my birth. One of those being that I will inevitably die. The more that I look around at where people supposedly find their purpose in life, the more I see people just finding ways to distract themselves from the fact this event will happen.
I think the biggest contributing factor to my opinion has been observing the people around where I live. The biggest two influences I've found are religion and alcohol. I was raised in a strict religious home where everything in life had to have something to do with God or Jesus and making them happy and to live a happy God-fearing life with that one special person you find to love for ever and ever. I went to a school and now work among people whose only goal in life is to get pissed at the weekend and presumably forget about life and to get laid with whoever is nearest. Neither of those options are acceptable to me.
Can anyone here actually say for sure what their purpose in life is? Generally the answers come back like, I live for my wife and kids, I'm living for God or I'm living life in the search for a purpose.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
Life is an opportunity. Take it or leave it.
I agree. If you find your place in life and are happy then by all means continue. Otherwise I think it's acceptable for people to leave it.
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Originally Posted by ronaldo
Marvin you have a very strange outlook.
Glad I don't know you.
I don't follow. Why are you glad you don't know me? Do I freak you out?
I'm not like a goth or something, I'm a pretty average guy with an alternative viewpoint about life, that's all.
It seems to me that such therapy would only work for people who haven't thought things through.
Um, duh? We are talking about suicidal people, right? That pretty much requires that someone hasn't "hasn't thought things through".
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Your suggestion of people seeing things differently suggests to me they haven't made an informed decision. Like I said, I can understand that there will be cases like that but there will also be cases of intelligent people who make a clear cut and well thought out decision.
Suicide is never an "informed", "clear-cut" or "well-thought-out" decision. Period.
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Isn't every interaction we make manipulation to a certain extent? One way or another when we discuss anything, we are trying to make each other see that our own opinions are valid. That requires some degree of psychological manipulation.
To a degree, yes, of course. The question is: do we handle it? Can we handle it? What do we do with it? If we become too manipulate in a direction that we don't like, we need to find a way to steer back. Change our social surroundings, our work environment, our defining parameters.
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Not if you have nothing to lose.
Nobody has nothing to lose. Life is a huge gift, and that alone is something to lose.
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Day in day out, my relatives try to persuade me that their views on religion are right and when I disagree, they just say well if you're not prepared to listen, you're never going to understand what we do and assume that I must have been tarnished by some negative influence.
Are they Christian? Because, if they're Christian, yet not "prepared" to accept other beliefs, they don't in fact understand Christianity, in my book.
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Well, on the other side of the coin, you could call life a cop-out from suicide because you are too scared to come to terms with your own mortality.
No. Life is the chance, however slim, that you will be able to turn things around, and make it better.
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A solution is merely an answer to a problem. If life is a problem then suicide can offer a solution. It may not be the best in everyone's eyes but the option is there.
But life in itself is not the problem! The problem is that you haven't found anything good to do with it for a while. And suicide is not a solution to that problem, but is in fact the decision "I can't be bothered to / am too dumb to / am too weak to / etc. find something enjoyable and useful to do in my life". Suicide is not a solution; it's a workaround.
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I don't agree with that I'm afraid. When you see young children die needlessly, you start to wonder if any life has a purpose. It seems to me the only purpose humanity has managed to find is to exist.
That's a very shallow point of view.
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But the thing is, I don't consider my viewpoint to be negative so much as facing up to reality.
I think the word you're looking for is "cynical".
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In a way, most upbringings are an unrealistically positive external manipulation what with all the Disney movies.
And that's bad? It makes people happy. What's so terribly wrong with that?
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The reality that I began to see is that I'm not the smartest person, I'm not the best looking, I'm not the nicest person and there are inherent limitations placed on me from my birth.
Steve Jobs is neither the smartest, nor the best-looking, nor the nicest, richest or in any other way "best". Yet, there are millions who admire him.
You don't have to be the smartest, best-loking or nicest. And if by "inherent limitatoins" you mean genetic inferiority, then you've already manipulated yourself. Looks are subjective. You're subscribing to the majority's perception for good looks.
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I was raised in a strict religious home where everything in life had to have something to do with God or Jesus and making them happy and to live a happy God-fearing life with that one special person you find to love for ever and ever. I went to a school and now work among people whose only goal in life is to get pissed at the weekend and presumably forget about life and to get laid with whoever is nearest. Neither of those options are acceptable to me.
Of course they wouldn't be. There's other choices out there, you know.
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Can anyone here actually say for sure what their purpose in life is?
They haven't found theirs, and they're avoiding trying to find it.
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Otherwise I think it's acceptable for people to leave it.
Acceptable, perhaps. Particularly bright of them? No.
Nobody has nothing to lose. Life is a huge gift, and that alone is something to lose.
I hear that a lot but it's lost its meaning or rather I never found any consistent meaning in it. Imagine you get some kid who is blinded from birth and who is born into a poor family always on the edge of starving to death. Where is their gift? To me that kind of gift would be like giving a kid a dead puppy for Christmas. You could call it a gift but it's not really worth a lot.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
Are they Christian? Because, if they're Christian, yet not "prepared" to accept other beliefs, they don't in fact understand Christianity, in my book.
Yeah Christian. I agree with you that they don't seem to understand their own beliefs.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
Life is the chance, however slim, that you will be able to turn things around, and make it better.
Life in itself is not the problem! The problem is that you haven't found anything good to do with it for a while. And suicide is not a solution to that problem, but is in fact the decision "I can't be bothered to / am too dumb to / am too weak to / etc. find something enjoyable and useful to do in my life". Suicide is not a solution; it's a workaround.
Ok, but here's what I'm not getting. You are saying that life is a chance to make the best of a possibly bad situation. But for what end? You're going to die anyway. Every action you peform in life ends up as just a memory. They aren't significant in any far-reaching sense.
Suicide might be an acknowledgement that you can't be bothered to do anything about it but why is taking the path of least resistance a stupid thing to do? Is there something enjoyable in the act of struggling all the time that I'm missing?
It's like when you were at school and someone would just push you and want to start a fight. Most people wouldn't want to start a fight and immediately just walk away. Every day I meet people who want to start a fight whether it's in business or relationships and I'm just tired of fighting to justify an existence I don't want. Weren't we always taught that walking away is the smartest thing to do?
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Originally Posted by Chucker
I think the word you're looking for is "cynical".
Reality is always somewhere between gullible and cynical. I prefer my end of the pool.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
And that's bad? It makes people happy. What's so terribly wrong with that?
Disney make people happy by feeding them false ideas about how the world is. Religion does the same and I think they make things worse. I don't suppose it's all that bad giving people false hope because they might make something of it but I think it gives people a false sense of security and leaves them unprepared for more likely eventualities.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
Steve Jobs is neither the smartest, nor the best-looking, nor the nicest, richest or in any other way "best". Yet, there are millions who admire him.
You don't have to be the smartest, best-loking or nicest. And if by "inherent limitatoins" you mean genetic inferiority, then you've already manipulated yourself. Looks are subjective. You're subscribing to the majority's perception for good looks.
By "inherent limitations", I meant the limitations associated with the human condition. The fact we are never able to achieve everything we can imagine and we are ultimtely constrained in an existence over which we have very little control.
Also, admiration is fine if that's what you want out of life. However, there have been many people who have been admired by millions and killed themselves.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
Of course they wouldn't be. There's other choices out there, you know.
Sure there are other choices in life as to what you want but I was curious as to what they were. Has anyone here found a purpose in life? Surely someone must have a rough idea.
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Originally Posted by Chucker
They haven't found theirs, and they're avoiding trying to find it.
Why would someone avoid trying to find their purpose in life?
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Originally Posted by Chucker
Acceptable, perhaps. Particularly bright of them? No.
Ok, let's take an example of someone in prison. They have a choice to live in an empty cell for the rest of their life or die. Which is the smart choice?
Now consider someone who lives in an emotional prison.
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Originally Posted by giant
Have you seen Hitchcock's film "Rope"? If not, go rent it.
I haven't seen it I'm afraid, I'm generally not into older films. What kind of things would I get out of it? The plot being:
"Two young men strangle their "inferior" classmate, hide his body in their apartment, and invite his friends and family to a dinner party as a means to challenge the "perfection" of their crime."
I'll see if I can get hold of it online somewhere. I find it hard getting movies made in the last 10 years from my local movie store let alone 1948.
I hear that a lot but it's lost its meaning or rather I never found any consistent meaning in it. Imagine you get some kid who is blinded from birth and who is born into a poor family always on the edge of starving to death. Where is their gift? To me that kind of gift would be like giving a kid a dead puppy for Christmas. You could call it a gift but it's not really worth a lot.
It seems to be a common conclusion that those with physical or mental disabilities are unable to lead a happy life, but every bit of research I've seen strongly suggests the opposite.
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Ok, but here's what I'm not getting. You are saying that life is a chance to make the best of a possibly bad situation. But for what end? You're going to die anyway. Every action you peform in life ends up as just a memory. They aren't significant in any far-reaching sense.
Humanity strives on the achieves of individual men which are remembered through centuries, if not millennia. To believe that your life will never amount to anything can easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Suicide might be an acknowledgement that you can't be bothered to do anything about it but why is taking the path of least resistance a stupid thing to do?
Because it doesn't make you come off as a particularly willful and powerful person. When you do commit suicide, you'll be exactly right: you will be forgotten.
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Is there something enjoyable in the act of struggling all the time that I'm missing?
Yes, achievement.
Climbing a mountain is tough, but ending up at its peak and being able to look down is an irreplaceable moment of joy.
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It's like when you were at school and someone would just push you and want to start a fight. Most people wouldn't want to start a fight and immediately just walk away. Every day I meet people who want to start a fight whether it's in business or relationships and I'm just tired of fighting to justify an existence I don't want. Weren't we always taught that walking away is the smartest thing to do?
Walking away from meaningless fights, sure. Walking away from challenges? No.
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Reality is always somewhere between gullible and cynical. I prefer my end of the pool.
That's your choice to make.
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Disney make people happy by feeding them false ideas about how the world is.
Not false, just simplified. And it doesn't matter; the goal was to make people happy, and that worked. The people got precisely what they asked for. That's not propaganda; it's a bargain.
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I think it gives people a false sense of security and leaves them unprepared for more likely eventualities.
That's called ignorance. It is not an entertainer's job (Disney) to work on that.
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Also, admiration is fine if that's what you want out of life. However, there have been many people who have been admired by millions and killed themselves.
But they would be admired even more if they had continued with their lives and achieved even more.
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Sure there are other choices in life as to what you want but I was curious as to what they were. Has anyone here found a purpose in life? Surely someone must have a rough idea.
You can't tell someone else the answer to this question, because it is completely individual. You won't know until you've lived the better part of your life what purpose it had.
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Why would someone avoid trying to find their purpose in life?
Because there are times and situations where it is a whole lot easier to keep whining about how horrible one's life is, rather than trying to constructively find the things that are right and wrong about it. (Welcome to the stereotypes of LiveJournal and Myspace. And yes, I have a LiveJournal, so call me hypocritical.)
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Ok, let's take an example of someone in prison. They have a choice to live in an empty cell for the rest of their life or die. Which is the smart choice?
That depends on what they can do. Can they read books in prison? Write journals?
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Now consider someone who lives in an emotional prison.
That philosophical systems based on idealized hypotheticals don't work in the real world like they might appear to in theory, and how screwed up it is to learn that the hard way.
On top of that it's also one of the greatest films ever made. The whole thing is done in one long continuous shot except for a single cut toward the end. Since the film reels only lasted about 10 minutes he had to use tricks like having someone walk past the camera so he could change to a new reel without breaking the continuity of the shot. On top of that, the two main characters are gay (although it's subtle and certainly not mentioned explicitly) at a time when it was totally unacceptable, so their dynamic is interesting. Even ignoring all that, the suspense it perfectly crafted.
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BTW, spindler and marvin, suicide it rarely a calculated decision. Most of the time it's due to mental illness like bipolar disorder, temporary painful situations and depression, all of which are treatable and solvable. Do you guys even realize that close to 1 in 5 people with bipolar disorder kill themselves and between 25%-50% try?
Mr. giant, don't get me wrong, I would guess that 85%-90% of successful suicides are definitely people who could have gotten over problems or moved on to a happy life. Perhaps I jumped the gun. I don't mean to downplay these 85%-90%.
But you say I am talking in "vague childish terms". YOU are the one who is denying facts and data. You say "What, we shouldn't help people out? We should just let them kill themselves?" I got news for you. There are lots of people who have NO ONE who would really do anything or care about about them if they tried to kill themselves." Again, your response has some built in naivete to it.
You say I am talking in vague terms. I am talking in the most concrete terms possible. I am talking about people that I know. Are you saying there is NO ONE on earth who at 40 has never really been loved by either their original family or the people they chose to date? Are you saying there are NO dysfunctional people that always date losers and never are attracted to sane people? Are you saying their is NO ONE who has not been abused by every person they have every dated? Are you saying there is NO ONE who's kids are all on drugs or in jail and will regret that for the rest of their lives? Are you saying there is NO ONE who isn't tired of their $6.50 an hour job that they have to work 50 hours a week to pay their rent? Are you saying there are NO poor people that get tired of living in a bad neighborhood with a completely broken down, miserable family?
Unless you respond DIRECTLY to what people should do in these scenarios, I won't bother replying. I am mentioning specifics, and you are talking in generalities.
You said that you and your wife or whatever were contemplating graduate school at 26. At 26, lots of people are contemplating working for $7 an hour for the rest of their lives. Lots of people are realizing that they will never have a loving relationship, just like their parents didn't have one.
You vaguely called my "simple" while not answering the scenarios I posed about drug addiction and untreatable mental illness, also.
YOU are the one who is denying facts and data.
You have yet to provide any.
There are lots of people who have NO ONE who would really do anything or care about about them if they tried to kill themselves.
So? Does that make their life worthless? How about they try and find a friend? Oh, social anxiety disorder, you say? How about get into therapy then? Isn't that a little more constructive and smart than not giving oneself a chance at all by committing suicide?
Are you saying there is NO ONE on earth who at 40 has never really been loved by either their original family or the people they chose to date? Are you saying there are NO dysfunctional people that always date losers and never are attracted to sane people? Are you saying their is NO ONE who has not been abused by every person they have every dated? Are you saying there is NO ONE who's kids are all on drugs or in jail and will regret that for the rest of their lives? Are you saying there is NO ONE who isn't tired of their $6.50 an hour job that they have to work 50 hours a week to pay their rent? Are you saying there are NO poor people that get tired of living in a bad neighborhood with a completely broken down, miserable family?
None of that warrants suicide.
Your philosophy relies on an unrealistic and idealized model of human decision-making that neglects the actual real-world causes of suicide and supports it with shallow, imaginary hypothetical situations.
I sure am not trying to downplay the severity of suicide, nor do I believe that such news isn't saddening. It seems to me that we are merely arguing semantics.
No, you're just being a dick for the sake of doing so. Sorry, you are. I fail to understand why you need to dissect every point in this thread and try to point out "contradictions" in what I'm saying, especially in a threat like this. You must have a lot of time on your hands.
I fail to understand why you need to dissect every point in this thread
Isn't that what a discussion is about?
You must have a lot of time on your hands.
I'm afraid that is none of your business.
I've had to personally deal with 4 suicides in the past 10 years. The most recent was a week ago friday. He left behind two young sons, a loving family and jeopordized a whole company, including 80 jobs and millions of investors' dollars. Remember, insurance and contracts, even business ones, many times are voided by suicide. That's just the tip of the iceberg, and it's just one example.
But who's stupider, the person who killed himself or the people who based their lives around him? What people have to understand is that in the grand scheme of things we are disconnected from one another and we merely interact. We have no deep seated obligation towards each other. I'm not saying we shouldn't help each other, I'm just stating the reality is that we are not obligated to.
No, I'm saying that your unrealistic philosophy is dangrous.
I agree that it's dangerous but not that it is unrealistic. I actually think that it is more in tune with reality.
Right. Instead of helping people you care about overcome their problems, you tell them, "yeah, your life sucks. just go kill yourself."
Again you make the assumption that everyone can be helped. That's just not true. Imagine a rape victim. Do you think that any number of meaningless phrases like 'chin up champ' or 'it could be worse' are really going to make a difference? Yes, some people can get over their problems but others can't.
Advocating suicide for people who are just unhappy with a situation they are in is plain fucking stupid. End of story.
Then present an intelligent solution.
I appreciate your concern, but this is certainly not the right place to discuss that.
On the contrary, if you know of a way that people who have suicidal tendencies can get help, it may be beneficial to others.
You are given an opportunity. Why waste it? Is there nothing at all that makes you happy any more? Looking at the sunshine? Playing a game? Watching a movie? Hanging out with old friends? Getting entertained? And if there is, even the slightest bit of positiveness, isn't that alone worth just living one day more?
Firstly, an opportunity to do what? Have a career, a family, friends, money? I personally don't place any value on any of those things.
Is there anything that makes me happy? Not really. Sure, when I watch a funny movie, it makes me laugh but does that give my life as a whole any meaning or purpose? I don't think so.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that, but I'm still curious about possible scenarios for that.
Scenarios where suicide would be the better choice would be in situations where the prospect of continuing life is worse than ending it. This can usually be countered by pro-lifers by saying that you never know what will happen. But yet again, it assumes a positive outlook no matter how bad things are and I don't think people should be forced to pretend life is good if their's is not.
BTW, spindler and marvin, suicide it rarely a calculated decision. Most of the time it's due to mental illness like bipolar disorder, temporary painful situations and depression, all of which are treatable and solvable.
How do you solve a problem of someone who has lost a loved one? You can try and convince them that they don't need them but there isn't a solution.
But who's stupider, the person who killed himself or the people who based their lives around him?
This just perfectly illustrates how your philosophy is totally and utterly disconnected from real world.
This just perfectly illustrates how your philosophy is totally and utterly disconnected from real world.
Well clearly they should kill themselves too! Dumb bastards............
This just perfectly illustrates how your philosophy is totally and utterly disconnected from real world.
In what way? You keep making derogatory comments without explaining yourself. If you can't answer any of the important questions presented then maybe it's your philosphy that's disconnected.
Well clearly they should kill themselves too! Dumb bastards...
If that was sarcasm then thanks.
Otherwise, please don't make personal attacks just because someone's opinion differs from yours.
I've been in quite a few threads on this subject and it's interesting how the same replies come up. The majority of people come along with the idea that having opinions like Spindler and I is generally stupid and totally wrong and yet few people come up with valid reasons why. Do you guys really think that abuse is going to convince anyone to think differently?
'I'm right because you have a retarded philosophy about life.'
If you don't answer anything else, then as I said, present a solution to this:
Advocating suicide for people who are just unhappy with a situation they are in is plain fucking stupid. End of story.
Let's say someone is unhappy with everything or at least most of the things required to make life worthwhile. What is your solution?
Let's say someone is unhappy with everything or at least most of the things required to make life worthwhile. What is your solution?
That someone should make a two-column table: one column lists everything he's happy with, and the other everything he's unhappy with.
If the first column is virtually empty, he probably needs psychological counseling. If there is something very worthwhile in the first column, that someone probably needs to learn to focus on this thing more and perhaps explore more possibilities related to it.
Meanwhile, the items in the other column will become increasingly negligible in their mind.
If the first column is virtually empty, he probably needs psychological counseling.
Ok good, that's a reasonable suggestion. However, what would psychological counselling achieve? Basically, you just tell a stranger what your problems are. Ultimately, your recovery is dependant on your own willingness to accept the advice they give. Without that, would you agree that there are cases that will not have a solution other than suicide?
Strangers can't give your life a purpose, they can only suggest ways in which you might find one.
Ok good, that's a reasonable suggestion. However, what would psychological counselling achieve? Basically, you just tell a stranger what your problems are.
No, no.
If someone has an almost (or entirely) empty left column, i.e., if someone cannot think of virtually anything he can do that can make him happy (e.g. "I used to play the violin, and I used to have fun doing it, and I haven't done that in years, maybe I should it again"), then it's most likely a sign of a mental block. That is, there are things that would make him happy, but due to a number of reasons, the person cannot recall them, or has a distorted memory of them (e.g., "I hated playing the violin!", even when one in fact did enjoy it). The usual cause for something like this is trauma; that is, a terrible event in the past may overshadow, cloud or distort one's perspective on one's own past and current life.
What I'm getting at is this: the person would start telling stories from his life that he might regard as dull, "normal" or even negative. A good trauma therapist would listen to them and ask the person questions that tend to throw the patient completely off-guard, in a "I never thought of it like that!" manner. This kind of epiphany can help the person remember that the left column of the list could really be a lot fuller, and that some entries of the right column actually aren't so negative after all.
This is not a matter of manipulation. In fact, the opposite is the case: one's mind has manipulated itself throughout the years, and the goal is to undo that harm, to clear one's thoughts, and to ultimately reconsider one's views on life.
There are manipulative solutions, too, most importantly neuro-linguistic programming (NLP). In an almost eerie 1984-esque way, this works by convincing yourself repeatedly of an assertion until you start completely believing it. The purpose is to balance out fears with strengths. Consider a person you're afraid of, e.g. a high authority (your boss's boss, or something). Your mind might inadvertently create an image of that person that makes the person look bigger (quite literally so) than they really are. Through NLP, you create a counter-image whereby this boss's boss is actually the size of a dwarf. Once you have convinced yourself that this person really is tiny, your fear of them will diminish.
NLP, of course, is highly controversial. It works for some, but not for others (not for me, either). The better, but more long-term and more difficult method is the one I stated above, i.e. trauma therapy.
Ultimately, your recovery is dependant on your own willingness to accept the advice they give.
Absolutely. If you are completely unwilling to accept advice, however, that really is your own loss. Sorry to be blunt, but that's the way it is. All suicidal persons I know are actually quite willing to listen to advice. They may disagree with it, but they certainly have open ears.
But those who don't? Well, frankly, they haven't sunken low enough. I know how harsh that sounds; I hear it thrown at myself over and over. But most of the time it's true. If you're unwilling to make anything out of your life, or even to listen to someone's advice how you might be able to accomplish anything positive at all, nobody aside from yourself will be able to help in any way at all. Psychological research can only go so far. The one person who understands you best is always yourself; you just sometimes "don't know it", and that's when you need professional help.
Without that, would you agree that there are cases that will not have a solution other than suicide?
It's a cop-out, not a solution. It's the thought process of 1) my life isn't worth anything, 2) I'm not willing to listen to anyone who might be able to convince me otherwise, 3) I'm right anyways, everyone else is wrong, 4) therefore, I'm wasting my time, 5) let's go commit suicide.
1) is already wrong, but many make that mistake. I certainly fall into that trap a lot. However, there's always 2), and that's where things get interesting. If you're willing to "Think Different" (hah), even for one brief moment, and listen to something somebody else has to say, no matter how crazy it may sound, it could make a huge difference. And if not, well, tough.
Strangers can't give your life a purpose, they can only suggest ways in which you might find one.
Yes, absolutely. But every life does have a purpose, no matter how hard one might convince oneself otherwise. Suicide can only follow years over years of negative inadvertent self-manipulation. A person's job is it to turn that around.
Life is an opportunity. Take it or leave it.
But who's stupider, the person who killed himself or the people who based their lives around him? What people have to understand is that in the grand scheme of things we are disconnected from one another and we merely interact. We have no deep seated obligation towards each other. I'm not saying we shouldn't help each other, I'm just stating the reality is that we are not obligated to.
I agree that it's dangerous but not that it is unrealistic. I actually think that it is more in tune with reality.
Again you make the assumption that everyone can be helped. That's just not true. Imagine a rape victim. Do you think that any number of meaningless phrases like 'chin up champ' or 'it could be worse' are really going to make a difference? Yes, some people can get over their problems but others can't.
Then present an intelligent solution.
On the contrary, if you know of a way that people who have suicidal tendencies can get help, it may be beneficial to others.
Firstly, an opportunity to do what? Have a career, a family, friends, money? I personally don't place any value on any of those things.
Is there anything that makes me happy? Not really. Sure, when I watch a funny movie, it makes me laugh but does that give my life as a whole any meaning or purpose? I don't think so.
Scenarios where suicide would be the better choice would be in situations where the prospect of continuing life is worse than ending it. This can usually be countered by pro-lifers by saying that you never know what will happen. But yet again, it assumes a positive outlook no matter how bad things are and I don't think people should be forced to pretend life is good if their's is not.
How do you solve a problem of someone who has lost a loved one? You can try and convince them that they don't need them but there isn't a solution.
Marvin you have a very strange outlook.
Glad I don't know you.
A good trauma therapist would listen to them and ask the person questions that tend to throw the patient completely off-guard, in a "I never thought of it like that!" manner. This kind of epiphany can help the person remember that the left column of the list could really be a lot fuller, and that some entries of the right column actually aren't so negative after all.
It seems to me that such therapy would only work for people who haven't thought things through. Your suggestion of people seeing things differently suggests to me they haven't made an informed decision. Like I said, I can understand that there will be cases like that but there will also be cases of intelligent people who make a clear cut and well thought out decision.
This is not a matter of manipulation. In fact, the opposite is the case: one's mind has manipulated itself throughout the years, and the goal is to undo that harm, to clear one's thoughts, and to ultimately reconsider one's views on life.
Isn't every interaction we make manipulation to a certain extent? One way or another when we discuss anything, we are trying to make each other see that our own opinions are valid. That requires some degree of psychological manipulation.
Absolutely. If you are completely unwilling to accept advice, however, that really is your own loss.
Not if you have nothing to lose. Also, accepting advice is something you can only do so much before you accept that you've heard all the advice on offer but disagree. Unfortunately, disagreement is often not an option. I can draw such direct parallels with this and religious people. Day in day out, my relatives try to persuade me that their views on religion are right and when I disagree, they just say well if you're not prepared to listen, you're never going to understand what we do and assume that I must have been tarnished by some negative influence.
It's a cop-out, not a solution.
Well, on the other side of the coin, you could call life a cop-out from suicide because you are too scared to come to terms with your own mortality. A solution is merely an answer to a problem. If life is a problem then suicide can offer a solution. It may not be the best in everyone's eyes but the option is there.
What I'd be interested to hear is how people would react if they heard that a child molestor had committed suicide. I often find that people react a little differently when it comes to people they feel deserve to die.
Yes, absolutely. But every life does have a purpose, no matter how hard one might convince oneself otherwise.
I don't agree with that I'm afraid. When you see young children die needlessly, you start to wonder if any life has a purpose. It seems to me the only purpose humanity has managed to find is to exist.
Suicide can only follow years over years of negative inadvertent self-manipulation. A person's job is it to turn that around.
I could actually agree with that. I think in a lot of cases, it would be a result of thinking a certain way. I know that I never used to have the opinions I do now, it is only after about 10 years of expanding that initial view that I've reached this point.
But the thing is, I don't consider my viewpoint to be negative so much as facing up to reality. In a way, most upbringings are an unrealistically positive external manipulation what with all the Disney movies. Contrast that with the upbringing that terrorists give their kids of hatred and you can see that all kids are manipulated to thinking like their peers.
The reality that I began to see is that I'm not the smartest person, I'm not the best looking, I'm not the nicest person and there are inherent limitations placed on me from my birth. One of those being that I will inevitably die. The more that I look around at where people supposedly find their purpose in life, the more I see people just finding ways to distract themselves from the fact this event will happen.
I think the biggest contributing factor to my opinion has been observing the people around where I live. The biggest two influences I've found are religion and alcohol. I was raised in a strict religious home where everything in life had to have something to do with God or Jesus and making them happy and to live a happy God-fearing life with that one special person you find to love for ever and ever. I went to a school and now work among people whose only goal in life is to get pissed at the weekend and presumably forget about life and to get laid with whoever is nearest. Neither of those options are acceptable to me.
Can anyone here actually say for sure what their purpose in life is? Generally the answers come back like, I live for my wife and kids, I'm living for God or I'm living life in the search for a purpose.
Life is an opportunity. Take it or leave it.
I agree. If you find your place in life and are happy then by all means continue. Otherwise I think it's acceptable for people to leave it.
Marvin you have a very strange outlook.
Glad I don't know you.
I don't follow. Why are you glad you don't know me? Do I freak you out?
I'm not like a goth or something, I'm a pretty average guy with an alternative viewpoint about life, that's all.
It seems to me that such therapy would only work for people who haven't thought things through.
Um, duh? We are talking about suicidal people, right? That pretty much requires that someone hasn't "hasn't thought things through".
Your suggestion of people seeing things differently suggests to me they haven't made an informed decision. Like I said, I can understand that there will be cases like that but there will also be cases of intelligent people who make a clear cut and well thought out decision.
Suicide is never an "informed", "clear-cut" or "well-thought-out" decision. Period.
Isn't every interaction we make manipulation to a certain extent? One way or another when we discuss anything, we are trying to make each other see that our own opinions are valid. That requires some degree of psychological manipulation.
To a degree, yes, of course. The question is: do we handle it? Can we handle it? What do we do with it? If we become too manipulate in a direction that we don't like, we need to find a way to steer back. Change our social surroundings, our work environment, our defining parameters.
Not if you have nothing to lose.
Nobody has nothing to lose. Life is a huge gift, and that alone is something to lose.
Day in day out, my relatives try to persuade me that their views on religion are right and when I disagree, they just say well if you're not prepared to listen, you're never going to understand what we do and assume that I must have been tarnished by some negative influence.
Are they Christian? Because, if they're Christian, yet not "prepared" to accept other beliefs, they don't in fact understand Christianity, in my book.
Well, on the other side of the coin, you could call life a cop-out from suicide because you are too scared to come to terms with your own mortality.
No. Life is the chance, however slim, that you will be able to turn things around, and make it better.
A solution is merely an answer to a problem. If life is a problem then suicide can offer a solution. It may not be the best in everyone's eyes but the option is there.
But life in itself is not the problem! The problem is that you haven't found anything good to do with it for a while. And suicide is not a solution to that problem, but is in fact the decision "I can't be bothered to / am too dumb to / am too weak to / etc. find something enjoyable and useful to do in my life". Suicide is not a solution; it's a workaround.
I don't agree with that I'm afraid. When you see young children die needlessly, you start to wonder if any life has a purpose. It seems to me the only purpose humanity has managed to find is to exist.
That's a very shallow point of view.
But the thing is, I don't consider my viewpoint to be negative so much as facing up to reality.
I think the word you're looking for is "cynical".
In a way, most upbringings are an unrealistically positive external manipulation what with all the Disney movies.
And that's bad? It makes people happy. What's so terribly wrong with that?
The reality that I began to see is that I'm not the smartest person, I'm not the best looking, I'm not the nicest person and there are inherent limitations placed on me from my birth.
Steve Jobs is neither the smartest, nor the best-looking, nor the nicest, richest or in any other way "best". Yet, there are millions who admire him.
You don't have to be the smartest, best-loking or nicest. And if by "inherent limitatoins" you mean genetic inferiority, then you've already manipulated yourself. Looks are subjective. You're subscribing to the majority's perception for good looks.
I was raised in a strict religious home where everything in life had to have something to do with God or Jesus and making them happy and to live a happy God-fearing life with that one special person you find to love for ever and ever. I went to a school and now work among people whose only goal in life is to get pissed at the weekend and presumably forget about life and to get laid with whoever is nearest. Neither of those options are acceptable to me.
Of course they wouldn't be. There's other choices out there, you know.
Can anyone here actually say for sure what their purpose in life is?
They haven't found theirs, and they're avoiding trying to find it.
Otherwise I think it's acceptable for people to leave it.
Acceptable, perhaps. Particularly bright of them? No.
Nobody has nothing to lose. Life is a huge gift, and that alone is something to lose.
I hear that a lot but it's lost its meaning or rather I never found any consistent meaning in it. Imagine you get some kid who is blinded from birth and who is born into a poor family always on the edge of starving to death. Where is their gift? To me that kind of gift would be like giving a kid a dead puppy for Christmas. You could call it a gift but it's not really worth a lot.
Are they Christian? Because, if they're Christian, yet not "prepared" to accept other beliefs, they don't in fact understand Christianity, in my book.
Yeah Christian. I agree with you that they don't seem to understand their own beliefs.
Life is the chance, however slim, that you will be able to turn things around, and make it better.
Life in itself is not the problem! The problem is that you haven't found anything good to do with it for a while. And suicide is not a solution to that problem, but is in fact the decision "I can't be bothered to / am too dumb to / am too weak to / etc. find something enjoyable and useful to do in my life". Suicide is not a solution; it's a workaround.
Ok, but here's what I'm not getting. You are saying that life is a chance to make the best of a possibly bad situation. But for what end? You're going to die anyway. Every action you peform in life ends up as just a memory. They aren't significant in any far-reaching sense.
Suicide might be an acknowledgement that you can't be bothered to do anything about it but why is taking the path of least resistance a stupid thing to do? Is there something enjoyable in the act of struggling all the time that I'm missing?
It's like when you were at school and someone would just push you and want to start a fight. Most people wouldn't want to start a fight and immediately just walk away. Every day I meet people who want to start a fight whether it's in business or relationships and I'm just tired of fighting to justify an existence I don't want. Weren't we always taught that walking away is the smartest thing to do?
I think the word you're looking for is "cynical".
Reality is always somewhere between gullible and cynical. I prefer my end of the pool.
And that's bad? It makes people happy. What's so terribly wrong with that?
Disney make people happy by feeding them false ideas about how the world is. Religion does the same and I think they make things worse. I don't suppose it's all that bad giving people false hope because they might make something of it but I think it gives people a false sense of security and leaves them unprepared for more likely eventualities.
Steve Jobs is neither the smartest, nor the best-looking, nor the nicest, richest or in any other way "best". Yet, there are millions who admire him.
You don't have to be the smartest, best-loking or nicest. And if by "inherent limitatoins" you mean genetic inferiority, then you've already manipulated yourself. Looks are subjective. You're subscribing to the majority's perception for good looks.
By "inherent limitations", I meant the limitations associated with the human condition. The fact we are never able to achieve everything we can imagine and we are ultimtely constrained in an existence over which we have very little control.
Also, admiration is fine if that's what you want out of life. However, there have been many people who have been admired by millions and killed themselves.
Of course they wouldn't be. There's other choices out there, you know.
Sure there are other choices in life as to what you want but I was curious as to what they were. Has anyone here found a purpose in life? Surely someone must have a rough idea.
They haven't found theirs, and they're avoiding trying to find it.
Why would someone avoid trying to find their purpose in life?
Acceptable, perhaps. Particularly bright of them? No.
Ok, let's take an example of someone in prison. They have a choice to live in an empty cell for the rest of their life or die. Which is the smart choice?
Now consider someone who lives in an emotional prison.
Have you seen Hitchcock's film "Rope"? If not, go rent it.
I haven't seen it I'm afraid, I'm generally not into older films. What kind of things would I get out of it? The plot being:
"Two young men strangle their "inferior" classmate, hide his body in their apartment, and invite his friends and family to a dinner party as a means to challenge the "perfection" of their crime."
I'll see if I can get hold of it online somewhere. I find it hard getting movies made in the last 10 years from my local movie store let alone 1948.
I hear that a lot but it's lost its meaning or rather I never found any consistent meaning in it. Imagine you get some kid who is blinded from birth and who is born into a poor family always on the edge of starving to death. Where is their gift? To me that kind of gift would be like giving a kid a dead puppy for Christmas. You could call it a gift but it's not really worth a lot.
It seems to be a common conclusion that those with physical or mental disabilities are unable to lead a happy life, but every bit of research I've seen strongly suggests the opposite.
Ok, but here's what I'm not getting. You are saying that life is a chance to make the best of a possibly bad situation. But for what end? You're going to die anyway. Every action you peform in life ends up as just a memory. They aren't significant in any far-reaching sense.
Humanity strives on the achieves of individual men which are remembered through centuries, if not millennia. To believe that your life will never amount to anything can easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Suicide might be an acknowledgement that you can't be bothered to do anything about it but why is taking the path of least resistance a stupid thing to do?
Because it doesn't make you come off as a particularly willful and powerful person. When you do commit suicide, you'll be exactly right: you will be forgotten.
Is there something enjoyable in the act of struggling all the time that I'm missing?
Yes, achievement.
Climbing a mountain is tough, but ending up at its peak and being able to look down is an irreplaceable moment of joy.
It's like when you were at school and someone would just push you and want to start a fight. Most people wouldn't want to start a fight and immediately just walk away. Every day I meet people who want to start a fight whether it's in business or relationships and I'm just tired of fighting to justify an existence I don't want. Weren't we always taught that walking away is the smartest thing to do?
Walking away from meaningless fights, sure. Walking away from challenges? No.
Reality is always somewhere between gullible and cynical. I prefer my end of the pool.
That's your choice to make.
Disney make people happy by feeding them false ideas about how the world is.
Not false, just simplified. And it doesn't matter; the goal was to make people happy, and that worked. The people got precisely what they asked for. That's not propaganda; it's a bargain.
I think it gives people a false sense of security and leaves them unprepared for more likely eventualities.
That's called ignorance. It is not an entertainer's job (Disney) to work on that.
Also, admiration is fine if that's what you want out of life. However, there have been many people who have been admired by millions and killed themselves.
But they would be admired even more if they had continued with their lives and achieved even more.
Sure there are other choices in life as to what you want but I was curious as to what they were. Has anyone here found a purpose in life? Surely someone must have a rough idea.
You can't tell someone else the answer to this question, because it is completely individual. You won't know until you've lived the better part of your life what purpose it had.
Why would someone avoid trying to find their purpose in life?
Because there are times and situations where it is a whole lot easier to keep whining about how horrible one's life is, rather than trying to constructively find the things that are right and wrong about it. (Welcome to the stereotypes of LiveJournal and Myspace. And yes, I have a LiveJournal, so call me hypocritical.)
Ok, let's take an example of someone in prison. They have a choice to live in an empty cell for the rest of their life or die. Which is the smart choice?
That depends on what they can do. Can they read books in prison? Write journals?
Now consider someone who lives in an emotional prison.
There is no such thing.
That wasn't meant as an actual comment; I just watched Anchorman recently is all.
What kind of things would I get out of it?
That philosophical systems based on idealized hypotheticals don't work in the real world like they might appear to in theory, and how screwed up it is to learn that the hard way.
On top of that it's also one of the greatest films ever made. The whole thing is done in one long continuous shot except for a single cut toward the end. Since the film reels only lasted about 10 minutes he had to use tricks like having someone walk past the camera so he could change to a new reel without breaking the continuity of the shot. On top of that, the two main characters are gay (although it's subtle and certainly not mentioned explicitly) at a time when it was totally unacceptable, so their dynamic is interesting. Even ignoring all that, the suspense it perfectly crafted.