ProTools/DP/Logic/Cubase
After reading Miami Craig's ProTools post, I realized there was much to be said about the state of audio in the mac world today....and didn't want to derail his topic any further, so here goes:
The OS is finally ready to begin dealing with Audio on the level that Pros need. Many of the cool features like "Audio Units" will make the "native" class of products clamoring for a chance to integrate. It is a sad state of affairs, but the Mac audio world has been caught with it's pants down quite a bit in the last year. "Nobody knows anything" could have been Apple's mantra at NAMM in January. Application updates and ship times have slipped again and again.....but we're close. We'd probably all guess that Emagic would get there first....but that could mean trouble. Native systems crash, PERIOD. Can Apple really afford to make the whole "widget", and have that widget crash from time to time? That should create an interesting set of problems. Does real ProTools crash (the only non-native solution that matters)? Absolutely. As much? Absolutely not. I carried the Logic banner for a while back before diving head first in to a large MOTU system. Back then, Logic wasn't making the whole "widget". MOTU could provide MIDI & Audio interfaces, as well as software. I used that platform a minimum of 6 hours a day, 6 days a week in a Pro studio. It is barely stable. The price/performance ratio made it tolerable, but after a while (3 years) and MOTU pulling ship dates out of their butt and sticking them right back up there a month later, I'm going back to ProTools. HD this time. I was with a band tracking at a great studio in Austin a few months ago. They had decided to use PT Mix+. It ran 6 days at least 14 hours each day. NOT ONE CRASH. Many times the stability comes from having a good tech to maintain the machine. I am that person for DP. People call me and ask me what extensions do they need to turn off, and which updates are good (3.01) and which updates suck (3.02). Reading the other post reminded me how I used to visciously defend my software platform, even as it crackled and crashed it's way on to my shltlist. They're just tools. I'll continue to use DP for it's extensive MIDI implementation. I'll only use ProTools from now on to record audio. Oh yeah, and Cubase really does suck.
If you're a non mac user, you can try Cakewalk "Pro" audio 9 and get the Mac user's Cubase experience. lol. Here is my Pros/Cons list:
ProTools Pros....Stable, ubiquitous, fabulous audio quality, great tech support Cons: Expensive,Ugly GUI, lousy MIDI, Digi needs to get off their ass and let me turn my 2nd processor on.
Digital Perfomer Pros....Decent audio, excellent MIDI imp., beautiful GUI, MP support, cheap. Cons:unstable, tech support just blows (a bad combination, if you ask me)
Logic Pros....Decent audio, excellent MIDI imp., MP support, cheap. Cons:cluttered GUI,unstable.
Cubase(is) Pros....they invented VST Cons:it sucks.
I have yet to use Nuendo, but I'm told it kicks ass. It's host based, so I have my doubts... I'm curious to get other's thoughts on this post.
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Mack Damon ]
damn colons! smilies got inserted all over the post!
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Mack Damon ]
ARGGGGGHHHHHH taking out the colons
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Mack Damon ]</p>
The OS is finally ready to begin dealing with Audio on the level that Pros need. Many of the cool features like "Audio Units" will make the "native" class of products clamoring for a chance to integrate. It is a sad state of affairs, but the Mac audio world has been caught with it's pants down quite a bit in the last year. "Nobody knows anything" could have been Apple's mantra at NAMM in January. Application updates and ship times have slipped again and again.....but we're close. We'd probably all guess that Emagic would get there first....but that could mean trouble. Native systems crash, PERIOD. Can Apple really afford to make the whole "widget", and have that widget crash from time to time? That should create an interesting set of problems. Does real ProTools crash (the only non-native solution that matters)? Absolutely. As much? Absolutely not. I carried the Logic banner for a while back before diving head first in to a large MOTU system. Back then, Logic wasn't making the whole "widget". MOTU could provide MIDI & Audio interfaces, as well as software. I used that platform a minimum of 6 hours a day, 6 days a week in a Pro studio. It is barely stable. The price/performance ratio made it tolerable, but after a while (3 years) and MOTU pulling ship dates out of their butt and sticking them right back up there a month later, I'm going back to ProTools. HD this time. I was with a band tracking at a great studio in Austin a few months ago. They had decided to use PT Mix+. It ran 6 days at least 14 hours each day. NOT ONE CRASH. Many times the stability comes from having a good tech to maintain the machine. I am that person for DP. People call me and ask me what extensions do they need to turn off, and which updates are good (3.01) and which updates suck (3.02). Reading the other post reminded me how I used to visciously defend my software platform, even as it crackled and crashed it's way on to my shltlist. They're just tools. I'll continue to use DP for it's extensive MIDI implementation. I'll only use ProTools from now on to record audio. Oh yeah, and Cubase really does suck.
If you're a non mac user, you can try Cakewalk "Pro" audio 9 and get the Mac user's Cubase experience. lol. Here is my Pros/Cons list:
ProTools Pros....Stable, ubiquitous, fabulous audio quality, great tech support Cons: Expensive,Ugly GUI, lousy MIDI, Digi needs to get off their ass and let me turn my 2nd processor on.
Digital Perfomer Pros....Decent audio, excellent MIDI imp., beautiful GUI, MP support, cheap. Cons:unstable, tech support just blows (a bad combination, if you ask me)
Logic Pros....Decent audio, excellent MIDI imp., MP support, cheap. Cons:cluttered GUI,unstable.
Cubase(is) Pros....they invented VST Cons:it sucks.
I have yet to use Nuendo, but I'm told it kicks ass. It's host based, so I have my doubts... I'm curious to get other's thoughts on this post.
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Mack Damon ]
damn colons! smilies got inserted all over the post!
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Mack Damon ]
ARGGGGGHHHHHH taking out the colons
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Mack Damon ]</p>
Comments
PT is wonderful, as I have said, when you are using it as a replacement for 2" tape. That is, using it to track a band in a studio. It has great quality and some of the best plugs are available only as TDM (e.g. AmpFarm).
But, for the serious musician writing songs at home, Logic cant be beat. It is a great compositional tool. And now that it can export OMF format, you can do some basic tracking at home, and then export the whole thing to PT to finish it in the studio.
Again, Logic/DP/Cubase should not be thought of as PT replacements. They are compositional tools. Use them in combo with PT and you will be in great shape. This is especially true if you use Digi hardware in Logic or DP.
YOu are right, though, DP destroys the other progs in terms of appearance. This becomes very important after 8 hours of mixing! PT and Logic are fine; not too hard on the eyes. Cubase, on the other hand, gives me migranes.
Ugly UI is what i disagree with. I've spent 9-10 hour sessions working in ProTools (crash-free BTW while engineering alejandra guzman's album, soy) and it just seems to get out of your way and let you do what you need to do. I don't think an extremely attractive UI is necessary in an app like PT.
I know all the key commands so i'm never using my mouse for selecting tools or changing to punch record or anything like that.
BTW thank you for posting this. Giant turned the other thread into Logic vs. ProTools and how the 002 sucks ass , when the thread was supposed to be about ProTools 6.0.
I think you'll be happy once you shell out the cash for your HD system. I've done some tracking with it and i really do think its a great improvement.
One
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: TommyBrando ]</p>
I've really been looking forward to Cubase SX for the Mac...
Does anyone here think that Logic OSX will add new features that aren't in the current 5.2 version?
When is the Phat Channel coming as well?
Will Apple use AudioUnits to augment VST support in Logic Audio?
Do many people have issues with VST and poor quality plugins?
Will Apple use Emagic to further the use of Firewire, mLAN and possible other technologies?
Is Pro Tools at risk. Computers keep getting faster and faster and the need to go beyond 24/192 being small.
Don't we think Native Systems with Controllers will eventually dominate?
He seemed right at home with the UI from the 1st time he used it. Just hates the crashes/ freezes. He said everything about is really great, and he'd be 100 % happy if it wouldn't crash all the time.
<strong>I'm a little surprised that neither Apple nor Emagic have said a single word about what we can expect from them in the future. .</strong><hr></blockquote>
We ARE talking about apple here, are we not? You're actually SURPRISED about them not disclosing future products? Hmm.
Thanks for the info, hmurchison.
<a href="http://www.osxaudio.com/index.php?story=188" target="_blank">http://www.osxaudio.com/index.php?story=188</a>
Read Marc P and other Developers discuss Audio Units.
I've emailed a few Plugin Devs and
Wave
Tc Works
Elemental Audio
PSP Audio and a few other look to be positive towards Audio Units.
Digital Performer X will be shipping this month. A Motu employee was emphatic on that point on Unicornation.
Don't know if they'll drop MAS in favor of Audio Units. I hope so.
<a href="http://www.macmusic.org/news/viewnews.php?id=145" target="_blank">ProTools coming to OS X in November</a>?
[ 09-13-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
I looked through unicornation and found no such post from a motu employee talking about a release date for Performer on OS X...there is alot of talk about 3.1 for os 9 being released this month...
Can you copy and paste the post?
Thanks
<strong>"Digital Performer X will be shipping this month. A Motu employee was emphatic on that point on Unicornation."
I looked through unicornation and found no such post from a motu employee talking about a release date for Performer on OS X...there is alot of talk about 3.1 for os 9 being released this month...
Can you copy and paste the post?
Thanks</strong><hr></blockquote>
Producer that's my gaffe. I didn't read close enough and assumed that 3.1 was automatically going to support OS X. Sorry
In anycase AES is the first week in october I think so Motu and Digi better have some hard dates by then are be able to duck all the tomatoes being thrown at them...
Why do I have to be a genius just to use these programs? Macs are supposed to "just work" and MOTU is a PITA. When I want to write music I don't have time for crap. Ease of use is my bottom line. Can anyone recommend anything for me? OS X is preferable but I have OS 9 and that's not out of the question, it's just unstable sometimes. I have a Yamaha 88key, MU50 Yamaha tone generator, and an iBook 500. Thanks for the replies guys! I've been waiting years to actually use this hardware. MOTU SUCKS!!!!! I hope they either die or clean their act up!
So my advice is to either learn how to use DP or get something like Logic and then learn how to use that. Either way, learning is involved. By the way, are you aware that DP is up to version 3 now?