ProTools/DP/Logic/Cubase

mack damon

After reading Miami Craig's ProTools post, I realized there was much to be said about the state of audio in the mac world today....and didn't want to derail his topic any further, so here goes:

The OS is finally ready to begin dealing with Audio on the level that Pros need. Many of the cool features like "Audio Units" will make the "native" class of products clamoring for a chance to integrate. It is a sad state of affairs, but the Mac audio world has been caught with it's pants down quite a bit in the last year. "Nobody knows anything" could have been Apple's mantra at NAMM in January. Application updates and ship times have slipped again and again.....but we're close. We'd probably all guess that Emagic would get there first....but that could mean trouble. Native systems crash, PERIOD. Can Apple really afford to make the whole "widget", and have that widget crash from time to time? That should create an interesting set of problems. Does real ProTools crash (the only non-native solution that matters)? Absolutely. As much? Absolutely not. I carried the Logic banner for a while back before diving head first in to a large MOTU system. Back then, Logic wasn't making the whole "widget". MOTU could provide MIDI & Audio interfaces, as well as software. I used that platform a minimum of 6 hours a day, 6 days a week in a Pro studio. It is barely stable. The price/performance ratio made it tolerable, but after a while (3 years) and MOTU pulling ship dates out of their butt and sticking them right back up there a month later, I'm going back to ProTools. HD this time. I was with a band tracking at a great studio in Austin a few months ago. They had decided to use PT Mix+. It ran 6 days at least 14 hours each day. NOT ONE CRASH. Many times the stability comes from having a good tech to maintain the machine. I am that person for DP. People call me and ask me what extensions do they need to turn off, and which updates are good (3.01) and which updates suck (3.02). Reading the other post reminded me how I used to visciously defend my software platform, even as it crackled and crashed it's way on to my shltlist. They're just tools. I'll continue to use DP for it's extensive MIDI implementation. I'll only use ProTools from now on to record audio. Oh yeah, and Cubase really does suck.

If you're a non mac user, you can try Cakewalk "Pro" audio 9 and get the Mac user's Cubase experience. lol. Here is my Pros/Cons list:





ProTools Pros....Stable, ubiquitous, fabulous audio quality, great tech support Cons: Expensive,Ugly GUI, lousy MIDI, Digi needs to get off their ass and let me turn my 2nd processor on.



Digital Perfomer Pros....Decent audio, excellent MIDI imp., beautiful GUI, MP support, cheap. Cons:unstable, tech support just blows (a bad combination, if you ask me)



Logic Pros....Decent audio, excellent MIDI imp., MP support, cheap. Cons:cluttered GUI,unstable.



Cubase(is) Pros....they invented VST Cons:it sucks.



I have yet to use Nuendo, but I'm told it kicks ass. It's host based, so I have my doubts... I'm curious to get other's thoughts on this post.



[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Mack Damon ]

damn colons! smilies got inserted all over the post!



[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Mack Damon ]

ARGGGGGHHHHHH taking out the colons



[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Mack Damon ]</p>

edge100

Now that was a good post!



PT is wonderful, as I have said, when you are using it as a replacement for 2" tape. That is, using it to track a band in a studio. It has great quality and some of the best plugs are available only as TDM (e.g. AmpFarm).



But, for the serious musician writing songs at home, Logic cant be beat. It is a great compositional tool. And now that it can export OMF format, you can do some basic tracking at home, and then export the whole thing to PT to finish it in the studio.



Again, Logic/DP/Cubase should not be thought of as PT replacements. They are compositional tools. Use them in combo with PT and you will be in great shape. This is especially true if you use Digi hardware in Logic or DP.



YOu are right, though, DP destroys the other progs in terms of appearance. This becomes very important after 8 hours of mixing! PT and Logic are fine; not too hard on the eyes. Cubase, on the other hand, gives me migranes.

tommybrando

HD...mmmm.. Expensive but a sick system. 192khz ? Love it. I really can hear the difference on an HD system as opposed to the old Mix+ systems we have. I agree with some cons. If i remember correctly, theres not only no MP support, but no Altivec support in PT. Hopefully this will change when PT goes X native in 6.0.

Ugly UI is what i disagree with. I've spent 9-10 hour sessions working in ProTools (crash-free BTW while engineering alejandra guzman's album, soy) and it just seems to get out of your way and let you do what you need to do. I don't think an extremely attractive UI is necessary in an app like PT.

I know all the key commands so i'm never using my mouse for selecting tools or changing to punch record or anything like that.



BTW thank you for posting this. Giant turned the other thread into Logic vs. ProTools and how the 002 sucks ass , when the thread was supposed to be about ProTools 6.0.



I think you'll be happy once you shell out the cash for your HD system. I've done some tracking with it and i really do think its a great improvement.



One



[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: TommyBrando ]</p>

res

Mack Damon, why do you dislike Cubase to such an extent?



I've really been looking forward to Cubase SX for the Mac...

hmurchison

BUMP



Does anyone here think that Logic OSX will add new features that aren't in the current 5.2 version?



When is the Phat Channel coming as well?



Will Apple use AudioUnits to augment VST support in Logic Audio?



Do many people have issues with VST and poor quality plugins?



Will Apple use Emagic to further the use of Firewire, mLAN and possible other technologies?



Is Pro Tools at risk. Computers keep getting faster and faster and the need to go beyond 24/192 being small.



Don't we think Native Systems with Controllers will eventually dominate?

sizzle chest

I'm a little surprised that neither Apple nor Emagic have said a single word about what we can expect from them in the future. When the announcement was first made I assumed something incredibly cool would be coming from that direction in the next few months, but now I wonder whether an OSX version of Logic will actually come out before the OSX versions of Cubase, Pro Tools, and Digital Performer.

squash

It's funny what Mack said about DP crashing. I convinced a friend to get DP for his studio,...he's an old school guy. He had never used a computer set-up in the past. He loved the UI....his one big complaint, it crashes too much!!!!



He seemed right at home with the UI from the 1st time he used it. Just hates the crashes/ freezes. He said everything about is really great, and he'd be 100 % happy if it wouldn't crash all the time.

tommybrando

[quote]Originally posted by sizzle chest:

<strong>I'm a little surprised that neither Apple nor Emagic have said a single word about what we can expect from them in the future. .</strong><hr></blockquote>



We ARE talking about apple here, are we not? You're actually SURPRISED about them not disclosing future products? Hmm.

hmurchison

In their larger Powermac G4 pdf they do mention Logic OSX is coming late 2002 on page 22

sizzle chest

Actually, Apple DOES pre-announce new software sometimes. They had Jaguar info for a while now.



Thanks for the info, hmurchison.

mack damon

OK, so Logic is available as a OSX DL. Has anyone had any real time on it? I'm more of a DP guy, myself. I love Jaguar, and what it means for Mac Audio. I've used it for two weeks with absolutely NO system hangs. Every once in a while, iChat will quit, or a classic app might stop responding, but I just keep working, as solid as ever. When I can bring this to the studio, I'll be an unstoppable crazy fool!. My ProTools HD3 system is on it's way, I'm sure it will arrive in time for Digi to announce 10.2 support and PT 6.0. I'm almost scared to buy plugins, in case people start using apple's DSP architecture. I had to get the Sony Oxford/GML eq, though......even if it was $1500. So c'mon guys.....how's logic for OS X?

hmurchison

Logic X Review.



<a href="http://www.osxaudio.com/index.php?story=188"; target="_blank">http://www.osxaudio.com/index.php?story=188</a>;



Read Marc P and other Developers discuss Audio Units.



I've emailed a few Plugin Devs and



Wave

Tc Works

Elemental Audio

PSP Audio and a few other look to be positive towards Audio Units.



Digital Performer X will be shipping this month. A Motu employee was emphatic on that point on Unicornation.



Don't know if they'll drop MAS in favor of Audio Units. I hope so.

amorph

Here, courtesy of <a href="http://www.macintouch.com"; target="_blank">MacInTouch</a>, is a rumor posted by <a href="http://www.macmusic.com"; target="_blank">MacMusic</a>:



<a href="http://www.macmusic.org/news/viewnews.php?id=145"; target="_blank">ProTools coming to OS X in November</a>?



[ 09-13-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>

producer

"Digital Performer X will be shipping this month. A Motu employee was emphatic on that point on Unicornation."



I looked through unicornation and found no such post from a motu employee talking about a release date for Performer on OS X...there is alot of talk about 3.1 for os 9 being released this month...



Can you copy and paste the post?



Thanks

hmurchison

[quote]Originally posted by Producer:

<strong>"Digital Performer X will be shipping this month. A Motu employee was emphatic on that point on Unicornation."



I looked through unicornation and found no such post from a motu employee talking about a release date for Performer on OS X...there is alot of talk about 3.1 for os 9 being released this month...



Can you copy and paste the post?



Thanks</strong><hr></blockquote>



Producer that's my gaffe. I didn't read close enough and assumed that 3.1 was automatically going to support OS X. Sorry

producer

no problem hmurchison, still love ya <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />



In anycase AES is the first week in october I think so Motu and Digi better have some hard dates by then are be able to duck all the tomatoes being thrown at them...

xaqtly

So does anybody know when DP for OS X will be out? I do NOT want to start using OS 9 again...

mack damon

LOL MOTU use Audio Units? We're talking about the people that still promote FreeMIDI over OMS, even though OMS won the Midi war AFTER they went bankrupt. MOTU wants their own standard. And yes, Magic Dave at MOTU told me, PROMISED me, that DP 3.1 would ship "by the end of september". I reminded them politely that they said "2 weeks, tops!" when I saw it at winter NAMM (January of this year). I'll believe it when I see it.

aquatic

I bought MOTU DP 2.51. I'm NOT impressed. It's GUI sucks balls. So I can't imagine how bad the others are. I am so sad



Why do I have to be a genius just to use these programs? Macs are supposed to "just work" and MOTU is a PITA. When I want to write music I don't have time for crap. Ease of use is my bottom line. Can anyone recommend anything for me? OS X is preferable but I have OS 9 and that's not out of the question, it's just unstable sometimes. I have a Yamaha 88key, MU50 Yamaha tone generator, and an iBook 500. Thanks for the replies guys! I've been waiting years to actually use this hardware. MOTU SUCKS!!!!! I hope they either die or clean their act up!

mack damon

"I hope they die!" WHAT?!!?! Seriously. Grow up. In simpler times, maybe you could get away with that, but not now, not here. They make an outstanding product. It has flaws. All software has flaws. I can list 5 flaws that DP has that I hate. I still like using it, though. It does it's job as advertised. As much as I dislike Cubase, I'm not suggesting that anyone from Steinberg perish prematurely. Perhaps Master Tracks Pro would be better suited to your ability. The first day of my audio engineering class I always proclaim, "There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people." Hmmmm. Something to think about.

xaqtly

I agree with Mack Damon. Seriously, pro music creation and sequencing apps will NEVER be as easy to use as, say, iTunes. That's the nature of the beast. I can't recommend any pro music apps if you're looking for ease of use because they all have a big learning curve. That's because they're so capable... compare them to DVD Studio pro or Final Cut Pro.



So my advice is to either learn how to use DP or get something like Logic and then learn how to use that. Either way, learning is involved. By the way, are you aware that DP is up to version 3 now?