I'm not sure either party is going about things 100% the right way towards each other, but I AM SURE of the following:
* Greenpeace is out to do good here--actual good intentions that benefit all of us. (They are not paid by MS )
* Apple should improve their environmental practices (and be applauded for what they've already done right)
* They are not alone, other companies should to0
* Apple is high-profile now, and part of the price of that is that you WILL be used as an example, by every journalist, blogger, or activist who wants attention. Because attention is what all of the above need (I am not judging this) and targeting Apple works.
* Greenpeace paid for their booth! And apparently were told to go without specific complaints to respond to?
* Greenpeace sometimes distorts/cherrypicks facts, just like every other cause out there, and I deplore this when it happens
* Even if Greenpeace is a criminal joint venture of the Mafia, Microsft, and Oscar the Grouch, blame Greenpeace but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater: the surrounding cause is a GOOD one and the issues are still important
Well said, nagromme, and very reasonable.
A pity though, that the knee-jerk Appleista crowd is just going to pull out the torches and pitchforks and go after Greenpeace anyway, never considering for a moment that Apple could do better here. Not an invitation to debate, just an observation.
(I thought I was rabidly pro-Apple 'til I came here. )
How is that well said when it is full of assumptions that Apple is NOT enviro-friendly? Sure if Apple really was anti-enviro, then that post would be right on, but the fact that Apple scores extremely well in every other groups' enviro policy for manufacturing AND their completely free no hassles recycling program (which GreenPeace doesn't seem to know exists), then its a completely ignorant post.
Are there still hazardous substances in the computers even after they were qualified for the RoHS initiative?
It is more known for removing lead from circuit components.
"This Directive bans the placing on the EU market of new electrical and electronic equipment containing more than agreed levels of lead, cadmium, mercury, hexavalent chromium, polybrominated biphenyl (PBB) and polybrominated diphenyl ether (PBDE) flame retardants."
It doesn't remove all possible hazardous materials, just certain ones in a target list. Cleaning up manufacturing is an incremental process. Heck, sometimes it takes a little while for chemicals to be discovered to be hazardous, and a little while to get a consensus that it is hazardous, etc.
Greenpeace is nothing but a bunch of far left socialist pigs who hate business in general.
In the US groups like Greenpeace abuse our freedoms in order to destroy our country and business in general.
"Yes save the whale, owl, and polar bear", screams Greenpeace but they are strangely silent when one asks them to stand against abortion and save a human life! Like all liberals thier doctrines are full of double standards.
It's good that Apple stood up to these nuts!
Isn't there an umarked helicopter you should be hiding from?
"Yes save the whale, owl, and polar bear", screams Greenpeace but they are strangely silent when one asks them to stand against abortion and save a human life! Like all liberals thier doctrines are full of double standards.
No, it's perfectly consistent. The human race isn't in nearly as much danger of going extinct, though many other species are under threat.
That sort of one sided thinking is a dangerous way to think. I'd suggest for the hope of human society to stop and think for a moment that you might not be the one whos correct on everything your passionate about.
And this means what? I never said that I was correct on everything. Try reading my post again before putting words in my mouth.
It amazes me how the so-called "open minded" left is so closed minded with all who disagree with them and their socialist policies.
Greenpeace is a bunch on nuts. Government this and that....bah!
Gee...when will Greenpeace go to China, North Korea,and Iran to protest? Oh..I forgot those socialist will run you over with tanks! Until I see Greenpeace in China, North Korea, and Iran I will continue to call them a bunch of nuts who are two faced with their standards. Those 3 countries destroy the environment more than the US and 2 of them are testing nukes! Where are the Greenpeace body lines in these countries? I'll tell you where...6 feet under because these countries would kill them that is "if" they showed up to protest. (I'm sure this will be ignored)
Ayn Rand was 100% right about the left and socialism!
Greenpeace is nothing but a bunch of far left socialist pigs who hate business in general.
I'd say they (the organization overall) does not represent the group you think it does.
Greenpeace is well funded.
It does not disclose where the funds come from.
It strongly opposes all forms of nuclear power. No matter how safe or eco-friendly, or how unproven the dangers are.
It does not oppose oil and coal energy production, which are absolutely, positively big polluters. They are also the only true alternative to nuclear power... at least for a while.
They have little focus on energy preservation.
The option they claim to support is solar/wind/etc power, which is economically unfeasible most of the time, and many folks at Greenpeace must realize this.
Combine this with other, semi-random publicity stunts which require very little personnel and time investment from Greenpeace. This serves to muddle the picture and paint Greenpeace as a generally eco-friendly operation.
Let's say I have a pretty good idea where their funding comes from.
The things I hate most about the organization is
- first, that by opposing nuclear power they are a major contributor to pollution on attitude level
- second, that the random stuff they do is often lies and actually harms people. I have seen this in action in Finland, where they claimed the wood industry was destroying the natural forests. This is just a lie. Finnish forests have never been under any sort of threat, and they still aren't. But the short Greenpeace shock campaign still damaged the Finnish paper industry and severely hurt their German exports.
"Apple has been named a ?Forward Green Leader,? one of the top ten environmentally progressive companies recognized by the Sierra Club and its investment advisor, Forward Management."
What neither company includes is that the "Forward Green Leader"s are actually recognized by the Sierra Club Stock Fund and Sierra Club Income Equity Fund. (why did they leave out half of the name? ) Starbucks and Hewlitt-Packard are also included...
Forgive me for being cynical but... does this have to do with the Reality Distortion Field?
BTW, the comments in this forum should appear in the Fanboy Wiki...
That sort of one sided thinking is a dangerous way to think. I'd suggest for the hope of human society to stop and think for a moment that you might not be the one whos correct on everything your passionate about.
And this means what? I never said that I was correct on everything. Try reading my post again before putting words in my mouth.
It amazes me how the so-called "open minded" left is so closed minded with all who disagree with them and their socialist policies.
Greenpeace is a bunch on nuts. Government this and that....bah!
Gee...when will Greenpeace go to China, North Korea,and Iran to protest? Oh..I forgot those socialist will run you over with tanks! Until I see Greenpeace in China, North Korea, and Iran I will continue to call them a bunch of nuts who are two faced with their standards. Those 3 countries destroy the environment more than the US and 2 of them are testing nukes! Where are the Greenpeace body lines in these countries? I'll tell you where...6 feet under because these countries would kill them that is "if" they showed up to protest. (I'm sure this will be ignored)
Ayn Rand was 100% right about the left and socialism!
Wow, you seem to think that the only way to change anything in the world is to change the whole world all at once! Congratulations for your interesting take on reality!
Hey, one of the nice things about living in the west is the ability to protest and freely discuss social improvements. Apple can improve their environmental record in many ways, and I think it's okay for them to be called out.
And by the way, China, North Korea and Iran COMBINED don't pollute as much as the states. USA is #1! Again, congratulations.
Fine, but they don't even acknowledge it. Instead of being constructive - Apple please make it worldwide - they simply act as if it doesn't exist. I understand it doesn't in the UK and this was a UK event, but at least give them credit for it instead of making it where unless a company is perfect, they are no good.
By this reasoning it would be your fault if someone jumped in front of your car. Damage on their side, and the front of your car...
How exactly can a boat "jump in front of" another boat?
Greenpeace is a scummy organization, only concerned with preserving their $360 million annual funding - no matter how many lies they have to pump out to get it, they will. IMHO they are far less ethical than any corporation (except maybe Enron).
How exactly can a boat "jump in front of" another boat?
Greenpeace is a scummy organization, only concerned with preserving their $360 million annual funding - no matter how many lies they have to pump out to get it, they will. IMHO they are far less ethical than any corporation (except maybe Enron).
Well, boats don't exactly have brakes, so it's actually pretty easy to make someone hit you in the side. It's a pretty good tactic because a lot of idiots will just think whoever's paint is scratched on the front initiated contact...
And it's great to hear about Greenpeace from someone who so intimitely knows their motives and dealings! Thanks for the intelligent insight! Damn non-profit environmental advocates! You're right, only Enron is worse! (sarcasm)
Fine, but they don't even acknowledge it. Instead of being constructive - Apple please make it worldwide - they simply act as if it doesn't exist. I understand it doesn't in the UK and this was a UK event, but at least give them credit for it instead of making it where unless a company is perfect, they are no good.
You should take a look at Greenpeace's points before writing. The AI article doesn't go into much detail. Check it out www.greenpeace.org/apple (it's actually a well-done adbusters type site...)
They don't deny the take-back program (only about a fifth is recyclable...), but say it could be better. Also, Dell and HP have put in a plan to phase out certain chemicals by 2009, while apple hasn't. Some other interesting points touch on Apple's lack of upgradeability compared to some other manufacturers which reduces product life (potentially), and the fact that a lot of the time, when it's cheaper for Apple, they'd rather replace than repair, which leads to lots of extra waste. I don't think any of these complaints are unfounded, and they're all ways in which Apple could improve.
Comments
I'm not sure either party is going about things 100% the right way towards each other, but I AM SURE of the following:
* Greenpeace is out to do good here--actual good intentions that benefit all of us. (They are not paid by MS
* Apple should improve their environmental practices (and be applauded for what they've already done right)
* They are not alone, other companies should to0
* Apple is high-profile now, and part of the price of that is that you WILL be used as an example, by every journalist, blogger, or activist who wants attention. Because attention is what all of the above need (I am not judging this) and targeting Apple works.
* Greenpeace paid for their booth! And apparently were told to go without specific complaints to respond to?
* Greenpeace sometimes distorts/cherrypicks facts, just like every other cause out there, and I deplore this when it happens
* Even if Greenpeace is a criminal joint venture of the Mafia, Microsft, and Oscar the Grouch, blame Greenpeace but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater: the surrounding cause is a GOOD one and the issues are still important
Well said, nagromme, and very reasonable.
A pity though, that the knee-jerk Appleista crowd is just going to pull out the torches and pitchforks and go after Greenpeace anyway, never considering for a moment that Apple could do better here. Not an invitation to debate, just an observation.
(I thought I was rabidly pro-Apple 'til I came here.
.
AND their completely free no hassles recycling program (which GreenPeace doesn't seem to know exists)
The recycling program is US-only.
Are there still hazardous substances in the computers even after they were qualified for the RoHS initiative?
It is more known for removing lead from circuit components.
"This Directive bans the placing on the EU market of new electrical and electronic equipment containing more than agreed levels of lead, cadmium, mercury, hexavalent chromium, polybrominated biphenyl (PBB) and polybrominated diphenyl ether (PBDE) flame retardants."
It doesn't remove all possible hazardous materials, just certain ones in a target list. Cleaning up manufacturing is an incremental process. Heck, sometimes it takes a little while for chemicals to be discovered to be hazardous, and a little while to get a consensus that it is hazardous, etc.
Greenpeace is nothing but a bunch of far left socialist pigs who hate business in general.
In the US groups like Greenpeace abuse our freedoms in order to destroy our country and business in general.
"Yes save the whale, owl, and polar bear", screams Greenpeace but they are strangely silent when one asks them to stand against abortion and save a human life! Like all liberals thier doctrines are full of double standards.
It's good that Apple stood up to these nuts!
Isn't there an umarked helicopter you should be hiding from?
"Yes save the whale, owl, and polar bear", screams Greenpeace but they are strangely silent when one asks them to stand against abortion and save a human life! Like all liberals thier doctrines are full of double standards.
No, it's perfectly consistent. The human race isn't in nearly as much danger of going extinct, though many other species are under threat.
And this means what? I never said that I was correct on everything. Try reading my post again before putting words in my mouth.
It amazes me how the so-called "open minded" left is so closed minded with all who disagree with them and their socialist policies.
Greenpeace is a bunch on nuts. Government this and that....bah!
Gee...when will Greenpeace go to China, North Korea,and Iran to protest? Oh..I forgot those socialist will run you over with tanks! Until I see Greenpeace in China, North Korea, and Iran I will continue to call them a bunch of nuts who are two faced with their standards. Those 3 countries destroy the environment more than the US and 2 of them are testing nukes! Where are the Greenpeace body lines in these countries? I'll tell you where...6 feet under because these countries would kill them that is "if" they showed up to protest. (I'm sure this will be ignored)
Ayn Rand was 100% right about the left and socialism!
No, it's perfectly consistent. The human race isn't in nearly as much danger of going extinct, though many other species are under threat. JeffDM
Typical liberal spin....save a beast and murder a child.
nuff said...
Isn't there an umarked helicopter you should be hiding from?
No unless it's Greenpeace flying it then I run and huge a tree so they will not attack me! LOL!
[B]Ayn Rand was 100% right about the left and socialism!
You can always tell when a college freshman first reads Atlas Shrugged.
Greenpeace is nothing but a bunch of far left socialist pigs who hate business in general.
I'd say they (the organization overall) does not represent the group you think it does.
Greenpeace is well funded.
It does not disclose where the funds come from.
It strongly opposes all forms of nuclear power. No matter how safe or eco-friendly, or how unproven the dangers are.
It does not oppose oil and coal energy production, which are absolutely, positively big polluters. They are also the only true alternative to nuclear power... at least for a while.
They have little focus on energy preservation.
The option they claim to support is solar/wind/etc power, which is economically unfeasible most of the time, and many folks at Greenpeace must realize this.
Combine this with other, semi-random publicity stunts which require very little personnel and time investment from Greenpeace. This serves to muddle the picture and paint Greenpeace as a generally eco-friendly operation.
Let's say I have a pretty good idea where their funding comes from.
The things I hate most about the organization is
- first, that by opposing nuclear power they are a major contributor to pollution on attitude level
- second, that the random stuff they do is often lies and actually harms people. I have seen this in action in Finland, where they claimed the wood industry was destroying the natural forests. This is just a lie. Finnish forests have never been under any sort of threat, and they still aren't. But the short Greenpeace shock campaign still damaged the Finnish paper industry and severely hurt their German exports.
"Apple has been named a ?Forward Green Leader,? one of the top ten environmentally progressive companies recognized by the Sierra Club and its investment advisor, Forward Management."
http://www.apple.com/environment/
Dell got the same thing.
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global...ndex_full.html
What neither company includes is that the "Forward Green Leader"s are actually recognized by the Sierra Club Stock Fund and Sierra Club Income Equity Fund. (why did they leave out half of the name?
Forgive me for being cynical but... does this have to do with the Reality Distortion Field?
BTW, the comments in this forum should appear in the Fanboy Wiki...
Typical liberal spin....save a beast and murder a child.
nuff said...
More like murdering sensible discourse by painting the opposing side as the epitome of evil itself.
That sort of one sided thinking is a dangerous way to think. I'd suggest for the hope of human society to stop and think for a moment that you might not be the one whos correct on everything your passionate about.
And this means what? I never said that I was correct on everything. Try reading my post again before putting words in my mouth.
It amazes me how the so-called "open minded" left is so closed minded with all who disagree with them and their socialist policies.
Greenpeace is a bunch on nuts. Government this and that....bah!
Gee...when will Greenpeace go to China, North Korea,and Iran to protest? Oh..I forgot those socialist will run you over with tanks! Until I see Greenpeace in China, North Korea, and Iran I will continue to call them a bunch of nuts who are two faced with their standards. Those 3 countries destroy the environment more than the US and 2 of them are testing nukes! Where are the Greenpeace body lines in these countries? I'll tell you where...6 feet under because these countries would kill them that is "if" they showed up to protest. (I'm sure this will be ignored)
Ayn Rand was 100% right about the left and socialism!
Wow, you seem to think that the only way to change anything in the world is to change the whole world all at once! Congratulations for your interesting take on reality!
Hey, one of the nice things about living in the west is the ability to protest and freely discuss social improvements. Apple can improve their environmental record in many ways, and I think it's okay for them to be called out.
And by the way, China, North Korea and Iran COMBINED don't pollute as much as the states. USA is #1! Again, congratulations.
The recycling program is US-only.
Fine, but they don't even acknowledge it. Instead of being constructive - Apple please make it worldwide - they simply act as if it doesn't exist. I understand it doesn't in the UK and this was a UK event, but at least give them credit for it instead of making it where unless a company is perfect, they are no good.
You mean like claiming a ship rammed you but the damage is on their side and on your bow?
Vinea
By this reasoning it would be your fault if someone jumped in front of your car. Damage on their side, and the front of your car...
By this reasoning it would be your fault if someone jumped in front of your car. Damage on their side, and the front of your car...
How exactly can a boat "jump in front of" another boat?
Greenpeace is a scummy organization, only concerned with preserving their $360 million annual funding - no matter how many lies they have to pump out to get it, they will. IMHO they are far less ethical than any corporation (except maybe Enron).
How exactly can a boat "jump in front of" another boat?
Greenpeace is a scummy organization, only concerned with preserving their $360 million annual funding - no matter how many lies they have to pump out to get it, they will. IMHO they are far less ethical than any corporation (except maybe Enron).
Well, boats don't exactly have brakes, so it's actually pretty easy to make someone hit you in the side. It's a pretty good tactic because a lot of idiots will just think whoever's paint is scratched on the front initiated contact...
And it's great to hear about Greenpeace from someone who so intimitely knows their motives and dealings! Thanks for the intelligent insight! Damn non-profit environmental advocates! You're right, only Enron is worse! (sarcasm)
Fine, but they don't even acknowledge it. Instead of being constructive - Apple please make it worldwide - they simply act as if it doesn't exist. I understand it doesn't in the UK and this was a UK event, but at least give them credit for it instead of making it where unless a company is perfect, they are no good.
You should take a look at Greenpeace's points before writing. The AI article doesn't go into much detail. Check it out www.greenpeace.org/apple (it's actually a well-done adbusters type site...)
They don't deny the take-back program (only about a fifth is recyclable...), but say it could be better. Also, Dell and HP have put in a plan to phase out certain chemicals by 2009, while apple hasn't. Some other interesting points touch on Apple's lack of upgradeability compared to some other manufacturers which reduces product life (potentially), and the fact that a lot of the time, when it's cheaper for Apple, they'd rather replace than repair, which leads to lots of extra waste. I don't think any of these complaints are unfounded, and they're all ways in which Apple could improve.