Really, I've got much better things to do than go over and over the same arguments that have gone on since time began.
And yet, you do!
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
The one that goes... Apple don't make 'insert product', therefore I'll not buy 'insert other product that would probably be just perfect if they weren't so particular or cheap'.
Yet another comment that proves the point I'm trying to make: you do not understand the "xMac" argument one iota, and you are being a troll. It's in the "isn't it time..." thread, and I don't wish to repeat myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
Oh god, a market share devotee.
Not entirely. I was pointing out that the title of the thread, and therefore its subject, involves market share not unit shipments.
I don't think Apple should chase huge market share at all costs. I've repeatedly stated (in various other threads) that I believe 10% to be a good figure to aim for at first.
Yes, they dropped 20% in units in the USA. USA != Worldwide.
In that case, read this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
. . . an analyst for PiperJaffray said Thursday that Apple's worldwide share of the personal computer market fell to 2.4 percent during the three-month period ending December, down from a 2.8 percent share two quarters earlier.
ok, 36 pages. I missed the other 29 pages that didn't show up on the forum software that said 1 2 3 4 5 6 7...Last and presumed 'last' was 7.
Really, I've got much better things to do than go over and over the same arguments that have gone on since time began. The one that goes... Apple don't make 'insert product', therefore I'll not buy 'insert other product that would probably be just perfect if they weren't so particular or cheap'.
I understand where the cheap-asses are coming from and it's a perfectly valid position to be in, after all Dell can make cheaper computers and look at how popular they are, but they go on and on and on about Apple not giving them what they want instead of working out what they actually NEED. Like spoilt children for the most part.
Apple don't make computers for every sector of the computing world and don't necessarily want to. They do like making profits and having good margins. That means certain sectors just aren't worth competing in. They also like making products that are different to the mainstream. Call that irrational but it is after all, their business. They aren't run by guys on forums!
Oh god, a market share devotee. Yes, you're of course absolutely right. Apple's continuing growth in selling desktops when almost everybody else is selling less is deeply worrying. I'm extremely concerned that at a time Dell sold 17% more laptops and 5% LESS desktops, Apple only managed to improve it's laptop sales by a paltry 24% and it's desktop sales by a totally miserable 18%. How crap are they?
Apple's growth in computer sales is almost in laptops now. Desktop sales have either gone up just a bit, some quarters, or have suffered a bit of a decline.
I really do think that Apple should take this seriously, and try something new.
". . . an analyst for PiperJaffray said Thursday that Apple's worldwide share of the personal computer market fell to 2.4 percent during the three-month period ending December, down from a 2.8 percent share two quarters earlier."
Yes, that's true. But if you'd been following along you'd realise it was because of exceptional sales in Q4. The analysts is both correct and full of it at the same time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Apple's growth in computer sales is almost in laptops now. Desktop sales have either gone up just a bit, some quarters, or have suffered a bit of a decline.
I really do think that Apple should take this seriously, and try something new.
You don't?
Yes, and I said so a few posts back. Emphasis on 'something new' instead of me-too products that people don't actually need. I fail to see how they're going to increase their market share (since that seems to be the important metric for some) by adding a product that other companies have negative growth in and have less margin.
. . . Emphasis on 'something new' instead of me-too products that people don't actually need. I fail to see how they're going to increase their market share . . . by adding a product that other companies have negative growth in and have less margin.
Simple. To increase market share Apple must attract customers who now purchase elsewhere. If some of those folks are buying "a product that other companies have negative growth in," than it is necessary for Apple to make a product somewhat like that too. Whether or not Apple's margins would be too low is a matter of cleaver design and pricing. Apple can't get all the people to switch, but can aim for the cream of the crop of Windows buyers --- those who would be willing to pay a little more to get a well designed and built computer with the extra Apple goodies. Hey, with a product like that, Apple may even attract those who only buy their Macs on eBay.
Yes, that's true. But if you'd been following along you'd realise it was because of exceptional sales in Q4. The analysts is both correct and full of it at the same time.
Yes, and I said so a few posts back. Emphasis on 'something new' instead of me-too products that people don't actually need. I fail to see how they're going to increase their market share (since that seems to be the important metric for some) by adding a product that other companies have negative growth in and have less margin.
Apple doesn't have to have a me-too product. We have two basic computer categories right now that have been around for quite some time, desktops and laptops. There have been other attempts to come out with new categories, but, so far, they haven't been successful. The tablet has been tried three times over the years, and it hasn't made it yet. The new Origami isn't showing itself to be popular either.
As far as desktops (or floor sitters) are concerned, there have been several iterations as well. The below the monitor horizontal, the tower, in three sizes, and the all-in-one.
Coming up with something new isn't going to be easy.
Apple will have to take a new approach to an old idea.
The iPhone is like that. It's not new, but it seems new because it combines technologies that have been around, or suggested, for quite a while.
Simple. To increase market share Apple must attract customers who now purchase elsewhere.
They don't need new products for that though, just more persuasive marketing to convince people that they're preconceptions are wrong.
Most people do not need towers. Most towers never get upgraded, never have their cards replaced and sit there with empty slots that will never see a card because everything is on the motherboard now. The days of the desktops as we knew them in the 90s are over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy
If some of those folks are buying "a product that other companies have negative growth in," than it is necessary for Apple to make a product somewhat like that too. Whether or not Apple's margins would be too low is a matter of cleaver design and pricing. Apple can't get all the people to switch, but can aim for the cream of the crop of Windows buyers --- those who would be willing to pay a little more to get a well designed and built computer with the extra Apple goodies. Hey, with a product like that, Apple may even attract those who only buy their Macs on eBay.
Surely that just proves my point. You want a Mac Pro but aren't prepared to pay for it.
I want an Audi RS4 but I'm not prepared to pay for it. I'll buy one second hand in a few years time or I'll put up with a VW Passat now.
Yes, that's true. But if you'd been following along you'd realise it was because of exceptional sales in Q4. The analysts is both correct and full of it at the same time.
Yes, and I said so a few posts back. Emphasis on 'something new' instead of me-too products that people don't actually need. I fail to see how they're going to increase their market share (since that seems to be the important metric for some) by adding a product that other companies have negative growth in and have less margin.
Compared to what Apple could be doing, I wouldn't call it exception. We have a company that is doing about a third of what it could be due to heavy bias.
They don't need new products for that though, just more persuasive marketing to convince people that they're preconceptions are wrong.
Most people do not need towers. Most towers never get upgraded, never have their cards replaced and sit there with empty slots that will never see a card because everything is on the motherboard now. The days of the desktops as we knew them in the 90s are over.
Surely that just proves my point. You want a Mac Pro but aren't prepared to pay for it.
I want an Audi RS4 but I'm not prepared to pay for it. I'll buy one second hand in a few years time or I'll put up with a VW Passat now.
A company telling the consumer that they know what they consumer wants better than the consumer does goes across very arrogant and has a tendency to loose sales instead of generate them.
Most people do not need towers. Most towers never get upgraded, never have their cards replaced and sit there with empty slots that will never see a card because everything is on the motherboard now.
That's all true but people and businesses buy them nonetheless. Why not just offer a moderately priced mini tower with limited expansion capabilities and quit fighting it.
PS I'm not going to offer specs as that has been done over and over. You get the point.
This is Apple arrogance, the crippleware like Mini or forcing displays on people with iMac is silly now days. This much is fact, walk into any electronics or retail chain and ask for Apple software and they will laugh in your face. There isnt any. Boot camp says it all. Apple has done this to themself.
It works like this..cripple mini for iMac,cripple imac for ProMac, price Pro mac sky high and then only sell your superior OS with hardware and this all = puny little marketshare with no one making Mac software. Welcome to Apple. If Apple didnt open their own stores they would be gone by now.
That's all true but people and businesses buy them nonetheless. Why not just offer a moderately priced mini tower with limited expansion capabilities and quit fighting it.
PS I'm not going to offer specs as that has been done over and over. You get the point.
I agree with that.
People don't always buy what they need. They buy what they like to think they need. In other words they find excuses to buy what they want. That is biased by how they think of themselves. They think they will need to upgrade because they think of themselves as being more sophisticated they they really are. When push comes to shove, they chicken out, and don't upgrade. But they want to think they will.
I used to (and actually still do) go through this with people wanting to buy cameras (and audio equipment).
They would ask me what they should buy. Many people were biased towards Nikon, because of the name, and later Canon, for the same reason. Both are the primary pro camera makers. They also wanted a camera that had a large series of lenses, even though they would never buy anything than the standard 28 - 128mm lenses. Similar thing is true about audio/video.
Computer users are no better, or sophisticated, than those people. Less, actually.
Apple is no different than any other company. We might want to think so, but they are not. They have to sell what people want. Having good ads is always a part of letting people know what is available, and making it look better than it might be. But, ads alone will not work for long, if the product mix fails.
Apple is not raising its desktop sales. That is an industry trend, true. But we, again, like to think of Apple as bucking these trends with better, more desireable products, and marketing.
With Apple failing to move its desktop lines better than they have been, we are forced to admit that Apple's designs, and prices, are simply not compelling to most. It doesn't matter how much a small few on online forums love them. It doesn't matter how many industry design awards they garner.
If the public doesn't buy them, that's the only response Apple needs, to tell them that something is wrong.
If Apple is going to become a laptop company, they should license out desktop machines (other than perhaps, the Mac Pro) to Dell, who seems to want to make them, and get the much higher profits from selling the OS in larger numbers then they do now. Perhaps Dell can sell $600 Mac mini towers where Steve refuses to.
People don't always buy what they need. They buy what they like to think they need.
I'm a good example of that. I've a MBP when a Macbook would easily meet my needs. Of course I love the larger screen and aluminum case but in reality a Macbook is all I need.
They don't need new products for that though, just more persuasive marketing to convince people that they're preconceptions are wrong.
. . . Most people do not need towers.
A company that confuses 'need' for 'want' can go broke.
It's possible to educate customers, but it takes time and isn't always that effective. It's easier to sell something close to what customers want, as others have now pointed out. Education can take place once someone is a regular customer.
Right now, many or maybe even most, PC users believe that expandability is a good thing and they want it. Apple appears to be ready to wait 10 or 15 years for people to realize they don't need it. But some do really need it still.
Even if everybody who doesn't need expandability suddenly realize that it's okay to eliminate it, many potential customers do not want a built in display for their desktop computer, yet want more performance than the Mac Mini offers them.
Quote:
Surely that just proves my point. You want a Mac Pro but aren't prepared to pay for it.
No, not everybody wants a Mac Pro, but just a high performance mini tower. The Mac Pro is overkill for those who play games, yet a fast mini tower would be perfect, if I can believe several of the posts I've read. Prosumers would also be targeted by such a Mac mini tower.
I almost entirely agree with Melgross earlier there where he said people buy what they want not what they need and there's often no convincing them that they don't actually need the alleged expandability you get from a big box computer. I think that's getting less of an argument though as more and more people buy laptops and they realise they don't actually ever upgrade computers. Though, saying that, many people don't actually NEED laptops, they WANT them. An iMac would be faster and cheaper if they never need portability.
I don't think it's entirely about design or features though. Too many people buy on price and price alone. Apple doesn't sell on price.
So, I still think people clamouring for a mini tower are asking Apple to do something very un-Apple and that's compete in markets they don't traditionally compete in, Gamer boxes and cubicle jockeys. Unless they've a plan to capture that market, which would be quite an accomplishment, I can't see them doing something half hearted. Apple likes to excel at what it does.
And I just wish consumers were smarter and realised that buying what they NEED instead of WANT and buying on design instead of price is better for them in the long run.
Comments
How odd that you don't get it despite saying that in response to a comment that was trying to spell it out quite clearly:
We are not talking about a decline in units sold/shipped. We are talking about a decline in market share.
Which, by the way, can only happen if the overall rate of growth of windows machines was higher than Macs.
Really, I've got much better things to do than go over and over the same arguments that have gone on since time began.
And yet, you do!
The one that goes... Apple don't make 'insert product', therefore I'll not buy 'insert other product that would probably be just perfect if they weren't so particular or cheap'.
Yet another comment that proves the point I'm trying to make: you do not understand the "xMac" argument one iota, and you are being a troll. It's in the "isn't it time..." thread, and I don't wish to repeat myself.
Oh god, a market share devotee.
Not entirely. I was pointing out that the title of the thread, and therefore its subject, involves market share not unit shipments.
I don't think Apple should chase huge market share at all costs. I've repeatedly stated (in various other threads) that I believe 10% to be a good figure to aim for at first.
Yes, they dropped 20% in units in the USA. USA != Worldwide.
In that case, read this.
. . . an analyst for PiperJaffray said Thursday that Apple's worldwide share of the personal computer market fell to 2.4 percent during the three-month period ending December, down from a 2.8 percent share two quarters earlier.
In Europe they grew by 44%.
Europe != Worldwide.
ok, 36 pages. I missed the other 29 pages that didn't show up on the forum software that said 1 2 3 4 5 6 7...Last and presumed 'last' was 7.
Really, I've got much better things to do than go over and over the same arguments that have gone on since time began. The one that goes... Apple don't make 'insert product', therefore I'll not buy 'insert other product that would probably be just perfect if they weren't so particular or cheap'.
I understand where the cheap-asses are coming from and it's a perfectly valid position to be in, after all Dell can make cheaper computers and look at how popular they are, but they go on and on and on about Apple not giving them what they want instead of working out what they actually NEED. Like spoilt children for the most part.
Apple don't make computers for every sector of the computing world and don't necessarily want to. They do like making profits and having good margins. That means certain sectors just aren't worth competing in. They also like making products that are different to the mainstream. Call that irrational but it is after all, their business. They aren't run by guys on forums!
Oh god, a market share devotee. Yes, you're of course absolutely right. Apple's continuing growth in selling desktops when almost everybody else is selling less is deeply worrying. I'm extremely concerned that at a time Dell sold 17% more laptops and 5% LESS desktops, Apple only managed to improve it's laptop sales by a paltry 24% and it's desktop sales by a totally miserable 18%. How crap are they?
Apple's growth in computer sales is almost in laptops now. Desktop sales have either gone up just a bit, some quarters, or have suffered a bit of a decline.
I really do think that Apple should take this seriously, and try something new.
You don't?
Stop whining AND stop calling people idiots.
You're new here.
I miss the good old days when Apple was a computer company instead of a religious cult.
Funny, I can't seem to remember those days.
You're new here.
Not particularly. I don't spend my life on here (I actually have one--really, 8+ posts a day?) so maybe it seems that way to you.
In that case, read this.
". . . an analyst for PiperJaffray said Thursday that Apple's worldwide share of the personal computer market fell to 2.4 percent during the three-month period ending December, down from a 2.8 percent share two quarters earlier."
Yes, that's true. But if you'd been following along you'd realise it was because of exceptional sales in Q4. The analysts is both correct and full of it at the same time.
Apple's growth in computer sales is almost in laptops now. Desktop sales have either gone up just a bit, some quarters, or have suffered a bit of a decline.
I really do think that Apple should take this seriously, and try something new.
You don't?
Yes, and I said so a few posts back. Emphasis on 'something new' instead of me-too products that people don't actually need. I fail to see how they're going to increase their market share (since that seems to be the important metric for some) by adding a product that other companies have negative growth in and have less margin.
. . . Emphasis on 'something new' instead of me-too products that people don't actually need. I fail to see how they're going to increase their market share . . . by adding a product that other companies have negative growth in and have less margin.
Simple. To increase market share Apple must attract customers who now purchase elsewhere. If some of those folks are buying "a product that other companies have negative growth in," than it is necessary for Apple to make a product somewhat like that too. Whether or not Apple's margins would be too low is a matter of cleaver design and pricing. Apple can't get all the people to switch, but can aim for the cream of the crop of Windows buyers --- those who would be willing to pay a little more to get a well designed and built computer with the extra Apple goodies. Hey, with a product like that, Apple may even attract those who only buy their Macs on eBay.
Yes, that's true. But if you'd been following along you'd realise it was because of exceptional sales in Q4. The analysts is both correct and full of it at the same time.
Yes, and I said so a few posts back. Emphasis on 'something new' instead of me-too products that people don't actually need. I fail to see how they're going to increase their market share (since that seems to be the important metric for some) by adding a product that other companies have negative growth in and have less margin.
Apple doesn't have to have a me-too product. We have two basic computer categories right now that have been around for quite some time, desktops and laptops. There have been other attempts to come out with new categories, but, so far, they haven't been successful. The tablet has been tried three times over the years, and it hasn't made it yet. The new Origami isn't showing itself to be popular either.
As far as desktops (or floor sitters) are concerned, there have been several iterations as well. The below the monitor horizontal, the tower, in three sizes, and the all-in-one.
Coming up with something new isn't going to be easy.
Apple will have to take a new approach to an old idea.
The iPhone is like that. It's not new, but it seems new because it combines technologies that have been around, or suggested, for quite a while.
http://www.asktog.com/columns/070iPhoneFirstLook.html
I can't believe that Apple can't have that approach to a desktop as well. It can't be that the Mac Pro, iMac, and Mini are it.
Simple. To increase market share Apple must attract customers who now purchase elsewhere.
They don't need new products for that though, just more persuasive marketing to convince people that they're preconceptions are wrong.
Most people do not need towers. Most towers never get upgraded, never have their cards replaced and sit there with empty slots that will never see a card because everything is on the motherboard now. The days of the desktops as we knew them in the 90s are over.
If some of those folks are buying "a product that other companies have negative growth in," than it is necessary for Apple to make a product somewhat like that too. Whether or not Apple's margins would be too low is a matter of cleaver design and pricing. Apple can't get all the people to switch, but can aim for the cream of the crop of Windows buyers --- those who would be willing to pay a little more to get a well designed and built computer with the extra Apple goodies. Hey, with a product like that, Apple may even attract those who only buy their Macs on eBay.
Surely that just proves my point. You want a Mac Pro but aren't prepared to pay for it.
I want an Audi RS4 but I'm not prepared to pay for it. I'll buy one second hand in a few years time or I'll put up with a VW Passat now.
Yes, that's true. But if you'd been following along you'd realise it was because of exceptional sales in Q4. The analysts is both correct and full of it at the same time.
Yes, and I said so a few posts back. Emphasis on 'something new' instead of me-too products that people don't actually need. I fail to see how they're going to increase their market share (since that seems to be the important metric for some) by adding a product that other companies have negative growth in and have less margin.
Compared to what Apple could be doing, I wouldn't call it exception. We have a company that is doing about a third of what it could be due to heavy bias.
They don't need new products for that though, just more persuasive marketing to convince people that they're preconceptions are wrong.
Most people do not need towers. Most towers never get upgraded, never have their cards replaced and sit there with empty slots that will never see a card because everything is on the motherboard now. The days of the desktops as we knew them in the 90s are over.
Surely that just proves my point. You want a Mac Pro but aren't prepared to pay for it.
I want an Audi RS4 but I'm not prepared to pay for it. I'll buy one second hand in a few years time or I'll put up with a VW Passat now.
A company telling the consumer that they know what they consumer wants better than the consumer does goes across very arrogant and has a tendency to loose sales instead of generate them.
Most people do not need towers. Most towers never get upgraded, never have their cards replaced and sit there with empty slots that will never see a card because everything is on the motherboard now.
That's all true but people and businesses buy them nonetheless. Why not just offer a moderately priced mini tower with limited expansion capabilities and quit fighting it.
PS I'm not going to offer specs as that has been done over and over. You get the point.
It works like this..cripple mini for iMac,cripple imac for ProMac, price Pro mac sky high and then only sell your superior OS with hardware and this all = puny little marketshare with no one making Mac software. Welcome to Apple. If Apple didnt open their own stores they would be gone by now.
That's all true but people and businesses buy them nonetheless. Why not just offer a moderately priced mini tower with limited expansion capabilities and quit fighting it.
PS I'm not going to offer specs as that has been done over and over. You get the point.
I agree with that.
People don't always buy what they need. They buy what they like to think they need. In other words they find excuses to buy what they want. That is biased by how they think of themselves. They think they will need to upgrade because they think of themselves as being more sophisticated they they really are. When push comes to shove, they chicken out, and don't upgrade. But they want to think they will.
I used to (and actually still do) go through this with people wanting to buy cameras (and audio equipment).
They would ask me what they should buy. Many people were biased towards Nikon, because of the name, and later Canon, for the same reason. Both are the primary pro camera makers. They also wanted a camera that had a large series of lenses, even though they would never buy anything than the standard 28 - 128mm lenses. Similar thing is true about audio/video.
Computer users are no better, or sophisticated, than those people. Less, actually.
Apple is no different than any other company. We might want to think so, but they are not. They have to sell what people want. Having good ads is always a part of letting people know what is available, and making it look better than it might be. But, ads alone will not work for long, if the product mix fails.
Apple is not raising its desktop sales. That is an industry trend, true. But we, again, like to think of Apple as bucking these trends with better, more desireable products, and marketing.
With Apple failing to move its desktop lines better than they have been, we are forced to admit that Apple's designs, and prices, are simply not compelling to most. It doesn't matter how much a small few on online forums love them. It doesn't matter how many industry design awards they garner.
If the public doesn't buy them, that's the only response Apple needs, to tell them that something is wrong.
If Apple is going to become a laptop company, they should license out desktop machines (other than perhaps, the Mac Pro) to Dell, who seems to want to make them, and get the much higher profits from selling the OS in larger numbers then they do now. Perhaps Dell can sell $600 Mac mini towers where Steve refuses to.
People don't always buy what they need. They buy what they like to think they need.
I'm a good example of that. I've a MBP when a Macbook would easily meet my needs. Of course I love the larger screen and aluminum case but in reality a Macbook is all I need.
They don't need new products for that though, just more persuasive marketing to convince people that they're preconceptions are wrong.
. . . Most people do not need towers.
A company that confuses 'need' for 'want' can go broke.
It's possible to educate customers, but it takes time and isn't always that effective. It's easier to sell something close to what customers want, as others have now pointed out. Education can take place once someone is a regular customer.
Right now, many or maybe even most, PC users believe that expandability is a good thing and they want it. Apple appears to be ready to wait 10 or 15 years for people to realize they don't need it. But some do really need it still.
Even if everybody who doesn't need expandability suddenly realize that it's okay to eliminate it, many potential customers do not want a built in display for their desktop computer, yet want more performance than the Mac Mini offers them.
Surely that just proves my point. You want a Mac Pro but aren't prepared to pay for it.
No, not everybody wants a Mac Pro, but just a high performance mini tower. The Mac Pro is overkill for those who play games, yet a fast mini tower would be perfect, if I can believe several of the posts I've read. Prosumers would also be targeted by such a Mac mini tower.
I don't think it's entirely about design or features though. Too many people buy on price and price alone. Apple doesn't sell on price.
So, I still think people clamouring for a mini tower are asking Apple to do something very un-Apple and that's compete in markets they don't traditionally compete in, Gamer boxes and cubicle jockeys. Unless they've a plan to capture that market, which would be quite an accomplishment, I can't see them doing something half hearted. Apple likes to excel at what it does.
And I just wish consumers were smarter and realised that buying what they NEED instead of WANT and buying on design instead of price is better for them in the long run.