But the countries aren't teaming up at all. Consumer bodies inside these countries are teaming up would be accurate. The AI piece is overstating the case.
In no way whatsoever are the countries through their governments teaming up.
Some of these aren't even legit consumer bodies and are simply grass roots protest groups.
Any whinging from the UK? (except from Mr. H) Maybe the UK iTS should get all the video goodies and Apple should hold off the other countries until the campaigners die down?
Not really since it's a strawman. The fact you can choose to buy music elsewhere is irrelevant.
The argument the Norwegian ombudsmen is making is that music bought from the iTunes music store should not be restricted to playing only on Apple hardware/software. There's a further issue in Norway in that once a sale has been completed, the terms of that sale aren't allowed to change, so for instance when Apple changed the number of places you could play a song from 5 to 3 (IIRC) it should not have applied to songs already in your library.
Seems fair enough to me. At no other point in the music industry's recent history has this kind of restriction applied and I don't see why it should still apply. Most consumers would probably be of the same opinion.
Obviously it requires one of three things.
1) Apple to licence Fairplay
2) Apple and everyone else to use a common open DRM scheme
3) Getting rid of DRM
It will happen eventually.
1) "..music bought from the iTunes music store should not be restrited to playing only on Apple hardware/software..." - Done - I can play it on any CD player at the same quality as an iPod and I can play on HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. etc. etc. hardware using free software. So this assertion is false on its face. I believe the real issue it access to the iPod, not using the music elsewhere. As has been pointed out many time, total iTune music sales are a small portion of illegal downloads and other purchases. Again, if you don't like the iTunes offerings there are Many Many other choices. No monopoly here.
2) I'm not really sure but I believe the number of computers has not changed. But if so this could/should be adjusted. A very minor point.
3) Of course consumers want more for less. As I've already said that's not always practical or possible. I want no taxes and all social services - not going to happen.
Apple should immediately pull out of Norway, to show France and Germany in concrete terms what will happen if they follow the same path.
And when customers go the iTunes Store Norway have a big banner with the phone number of their local member of parliament to call if they want it reopened.
By the same token, perhaps Apple should start by pulling out of the US, since, after all, the SEC is going after its CEO for options backdating?
As a global player, if you pull out of every country where you run into a legal problem, you will soon cease to be in business anywhere!
2 Billion songs sold and counting does not mean much if Apple have to pay royalties to the record companies and artists , their internet partners as well as maintaining the iTMS infrastructure worldwide. The iPod family are the ones that are making a profit for Apple , any profit they can get from the music store is a plus for them and their shareholders.
Who else but "consumer bodies" would team up in a case such as this? Certainly not Departments of Labor. Nor Ministries of Transportation. Nor Departments of Defense.
Each country in Europe has a minister responsible for trade and industry and also usually one for culture too. Consumer bodies lobby these ministers who will then take it up at the political level directly with their fellow ministers in the other country to which they're at issue with. Or in Europe, pass it on to the European Commission or Parliament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Again, in your quest to be "technically" correct, you are, IMHO, missing the larger point: That the iTunes/DRM issue is going to become much larger..... whether his happens in what is defined as "Europe", or "EU", or "Euro-zone" or whatever one might call the broad geographical grouping on the other side of the Atlantic is less the issue.
I agree, it may yet become a larger issue, but, there is a BIG difference between 'Europe' and the 'EU'. One is geographic and the other is political. That's the crux of this story as it's not really hit the political level in Europe but is spreading geographically. With no political power though, the complainers are going nowhere.
The exception being Norway who may yet unilaterally apply fines on Apple. Norway being outside the EU (ie. no direct political influence) will find it hard to influence other countries, particularly when this is a fine imposed without Norway's government's say so.
Apple should immediately pull out of Norway, to show France and Germany in concrete terms what will happen if they follow the same path.
And when customers go the iTunes Store Norway have a big banner with the phone number of their local member of parliament to call if they want it reopened.
Then they'll get the real public opinion rather than a few whinging pirates (Grrr) who'll find another excuse not to buy anyway.
1) "..music bought from the iTunes music store should not be restrited to playing only on Apple hardware/software..." - Done - I can play it on any CD player at the same quality as an iPod and I can play on HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. etc. etc. hardware using free software. So this assertion is false on its face.
That is a hole in the Norwegian ombudsmen's argument but it's a stupid one. Why are you defending it btw? Seems odd that someone would defend DRM and all the hoops you have to go through to bypass it just to get a lower quality song on someone else's mp3 player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy
I believe the real issue it access to the iPod, not using the music elsewhere.
It's not. Read the complaint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy
As has been pointed out many time, total iTune music sales are a small portion of illegal downloads and other purchases. Again, if you don't like the iTunes offerings there are Many Many other choices. No monopoly here.
Ah, we're back to the strawman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy
2) I'm not really sure but I believe the number of computers has not changed. But if so this could/should be adjusted. A very minor point.
It should, but that's the law in Norway and Apple have broken it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy
3) Of course consumers want more for less. As I've already said that's not always practical or possible. I want no taxes and all social services - not going to happen.
Ah, your second strawman in the same argument. Consumers aren't wanting more for less. The whole point of the complaint is that they should have the SAME media rights as under existing systems like CD, tape, DVD and records that they've had for decades.
By the same token, perhaps Apple should start by pulling out of the US, since, after all, the SEC is going after its CEO for options backdating?
You jest, but actually a lot of small US companies are now doing their IPOs in London because US accounting rules have become too onerous. New York is now reduced to third in the world in term of IPOs. So Americans are not afraid to take their business out of America if needed. When Microsoft was being bullied a few years ago they raised the prospect of moving to Canada.
2 Billion songs sold and counting does not mean much if Apple have to pay royalties to the record companies and artists , their internet partners as well as maintaining the iTMS infrastructure worldwide. The iPod family are the ones that are making a profit for Apple , any profit they can get from the music store is a plus for them and their shareholders.
Apple made 634 million last quarter from iTunes and iPod accessories. And 3.4 billion from selling iPods. IIRC they sold about 500 million tracks between the iTV unveiling and MWSF so even if they made 10c on each song profit, that's 50 million. In the grand scheme of Apple profits, that's not a lot, but then it's not 'breaking even' either.
And of course, that's just direct profit. Indirectly, it's strategically important that Apple has a successful music store. You never know, Microsoft might amaze us one day by doing something right. ok that's a little far fetched
That is a hole in the Norwegian ombudsmen's argument but it's a stupid one. Why are you defending it btw? Seems odd that someone would defend DRM and all the hoops you have to go through to bypass it just to get a lower quality song on someone else's mp3 player.
DRM doesn need a defense, or not. Its a choice. Use it/don't. Having an MP3 player is not an inalienable right. I don't have to go through the hoops, its simply an offering, one among many. I personnally buy CD's and put them on my iPod, for all the reasons already stated. I can do that on any player.
I always love it when a false argument is justfied by basically saying "That's not what I really meant". "Don't look at the man behind the curtain." If an argument is false, its false. Its not a hole, its incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
It's not. Read the complaint.
I know that's what's written, which is one of my points - actions and words are not lining up therefore I question the motivations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
Ah, your second strawman in the same argument. Consumers aren't wanting more for less. The whole point of the complaint is that they should have the SAME media rights as under existing systems like CD, tape, DVD and records that they've had for decades.
This is the real strawman - They're not rights. Music was and is a product that is sold under an agreement. DRM is a new agreement. iTunes is one version of the agreement. Take it/Leave it - your choice. If you think consumers don't want this and are willing to pay the same, or more for a different agreement, go to it - a business opportunity. But in any case as has been pointed out they have not lost any rights, they been offered a new opportunity which they can accept, or not. All the old rights - CD's, tapes, and if you're really dilligent vinyl are still available.
Apple made 634 million last quarter from iTunes and iPod accessories. And 3.4 billion from selling iPods. IIRC they sold about 500 million tracks between the iTV unveiling and MWSF so even if they made 10c on each song profit, that's 50 million. In the grand scheme of Apple profits, that's not a lot, but then it's not 'breaking even' either.
And of course, that's just direct profit. Indirectly, it's strategically important that Apple has a successful music store. You never know, Microsoft might amaze us one day by doing something right. ok that's a little far fetched
As long as Steve Ballmer is running Microsoft , then you are right.
DRM doesn need a defense, or not. Its a choice. Use it/don't.
Again with the strawman.
The complaint isn't about choice. It's about what Apple is selling in Norway and Norwegian consumer law.
From OUT-LAW.COM since they seem to have the only decent article on this...
Quote:
"The Norwegian Consumer Council, Forbrukerradet, lodged a complaint with the Ombudsman on behalf of Norwegian consumers claiming that the Fairplay DRM system acted against the interests of consumers. It said that the fact that the technology stopped songs bought from iTunes being played on any player other than an iPod broke the law in Norway.
The Ombudsman has now agreed, according to Torgeir Waterhouse, senior advisor at the Consumer Council.
"It doesn't get any clearer than this. Fairplay is an illegal lock-in technology whose main purpose is to lock the consumers to the total package provided by Apple by blocking interoperability," Waterhouse told OUT-LAW.COM. "For all practical purposes this means that iTunes Music Store is trying to kill off one the most important building blocks in a well functioning digital society, interoperability, in order to boost its own profits."
Waterhouse said that the Ombudsman has written to Apple to say that it believes that Apple's Fairplay system is illegal. "iTunes Music Store must remove its illegal lock-in technology or appear in court," he said. "As of right now we're heading for a big breakthrough that will hopefully pave the way for consumers everywhere to regain control of music they legally purchase."
The Consumer Council believes that Apple has only three options: it can license Fairplay to any manufacturer that wants iTunes songs to play on its machines; it can co-develop an open standard with other companies; or it can abandon DRM altogether.
The Ombudsman has also backed the Consumer Council's claim that the DRM technology is not simply a copy protection scheme. The Council had argued that in restricting consumers' use of music so heavily the technology broke contract law in Norway.
"The Ombudsman has confirmed our claim that the DRM must be considered part of the contract terms and not a copy protection scheme only," said Waterhouse. "This means that under the Norwegian Marketing Control Act the DRM must provide balanced and fair rights to the consumer when they purchase music form iTunes Music Store and similar download services."
"Apple is aware of the concerns we've heard from several agencies in Europe and we're looking forward to resolving these issues as quickly as possible,? Apple spokesman Tom Neumayr told AP news agency earlier this week. ?Apple hopes that European governments will encourage a competitive environment that lets innovation thrive, protects intellectual property and allows consumers to decide which products are successful.?"
You must really like strawmen. I wasn't responding to the 'complaint' with this comment about choice and DRM, but to your assertion that I was defending DRM - so no strawmen here.
I have already read the article you post and maintain that the complaint is ill-founded. Apple has provided for extensive interoperability, far more that any other DRM based system. Can you take a play-for-sure and burn it to a CD? (I actually don't know this) A Zune? (I'm pretty sure not) I have stated how it is interoperable with many many other systems - not all. So why is this being pursed against the least offender out there? Just a guess, but ?money?.
Again, DRM is not an Apple choice but their solution is the best one out there.
One question , since Apple was open about the ITMS/iPod connection when they started operating the music store in Norway and the Norwegian Consumer council was well aware that the songs that are being bought in the iTMS was "locked-in "to the iPod for several months prior to it's introduction . Shouldn't they had said something about this even before the first music was sold ?
DRM? Hate It? Don't buy an iPod... There's no one holding a gun to your head telling you to buy an iPod or iTunes music. If you don't like iTunes DRM buy something else.
The reason you can't play an Xbox game on another console is because the Xbox represents a hardware platform that Microsoft consider to be state-of-the-art at the time of development to trade-off retail price, performance, and profits. Games then have to be written to target that hardware platform to obtain decent performance, and this requires considerable effort.
A music player on the other hand, is much more of a generic platform. Any player on the market is technically capable of decoding AAC (even if the manufacturers haven't implemented an AAC codec, they could if they wanted to), and therefore the only thing stopping them playing iTunes Store downloads is FairPlay DRM.
Whilst licensing FairPlay may do Apple some damage, it is difficult to deny that Apple being forced to licence FairPlay would be good for the consumer.
"When you buy a music CD it doesn't play only on players made by Panasonic," Kouwen declared. "People who download a song from iTunes shouldn't be bound to an iPod for the rest of their lives."
CDs are generic. iTunes was created BY APPLE. iPods ARE MADE FOR iTunes. The real culprit is DRM aka RIAA
You must really like strawmen. I wasn't responding to the 'complaint' with this comment about choice and DRM, but to your assertion that I was defending DRM - so no strawmen here.
Well, you are though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy
I have already read the article you post and maintain that the complaint is ill-founded. Apple has provided for extensive interoperability, far more that any other DRM based system. Can you take a play-for-sure and burn it to a CD? (I actually don't know this) A Zune? (I'm pretty sure not) I have stated how it is interoperable with many many other systems - not all. So why is this being pursed against the least offender out there? Just a guess, but ?money?.
Again, DRM is not an Apple choice but their solution is the best one out there.
Format shifting is illegal in many EU countries. I'd guess in Norway too. Until last year, ripping to an iPod was actually illegal in the UK. Even then, it's hardly a practical solution that you've got to burn it to CD (under the playlist restriction) then re-rip a substandard copy degrading it further.
If you think that's acceptable then enjoy your restrictions.
I do believe that this will become an EU-wide issue in the near future, and this is not the last we will hear of it. It is not (quite) there yet, but it will soon be.
If this ever reaches a legal trial at the EU level (which I doubt) I really can't see how Apple can lose and be forced to change its ways, for the following reasons:
1) There is still competition and choice
2) The music bought from the iTunes store is playable on any computer
3) There are work-arounds (albeit involving quality-losses) to have the music playable on all other MP3 players
On the other hand, I find it very reasonable to believe that the EU will at some point force Apple to open up its national iTunes stores in the EU to consumers from other EU countries. In my view, the current system is violating the treaties regarding a EU-wide open market with free movement of goods and services. I am actually surprised that this issue has not been discussed more yet.
Comments
But the countries aren't teaming up at all. Consumer bodies inside these countries are teaming up would be accurate. The AI piece is overstating the case.
In no way whatsoever are the countries through their governments teaming up.
Some of these aren't even legit consumer bodies and are simply grass roots protest groups.
Any whinging from the UK? (except from Mr. H) Maybe the UK iTS should get all the video goodies and Apple should hold off the other countries until the campaigners die down?
Not really since it's a strawman. The fact you can choose to buy music elsewhere is irrelevant.
The argument the Norwegian ombudsmen is making is that music bought from the iTunes music store should not be restricted to playing only on Apple hardware/software. There's a further issue in Norway in that once a sale has been completed, the terms of that sale aren't allowed to change, so for instance when Apple changed the number of places you could play a song from 5 to 3 (IIRC) it should not have applied to songs already in your library.
Seems fair enough to me. At no other point in the music industry's recent history has this kind of restriction applied and I don't see why it should still apply. Most consumers would probably be of the same opinion.
Obviously it requires one of three things.
1) Apple to licence Fairplay
2) Apple and everyone else to use a common open DRM scheme
3) Getting rid of DRM
It will happen eventually.
1) "..music bought from the iTunes music store should not be restrited to playing only on Apple hardware/software..." - Done - I can play it on any CD player at the same quality as an iPod and I can play on HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. etc. etc. hardware using free software. So this assertion is false on its face. I believe the real issue it access to the iPod, not using the music elsewhere. As has been pointed out many time, total iTune music sales are a small portion of illegal downloads and other purchases. Again, if you don't like the iTunes offerings there are Many Many other choices. No monopoly here.
2) I'm not really sure but I believe the number of computers has not changed. But if so this could/should be adjusted. A very minor point.
3) Of course consumers want more for less. As I've already said that's not always practical or possible. I want no taxes and all social services - not going to happen.
Apple should immediately pull out of Norway, to show France and Germany in concrete terms what will happen if they follow the same path.
And when customers go the iTunes Store Norway have a big banner with the phone number of their local member of parliament to call if they want it reopened.
By the same token, perhaps Apple should start by pulling out of the US, since, after all, the SEC is going after its CEO for options backdating?
As a global player, if you pull out of every country where you run into a legal problem, you will soon cease to be in business anywhere!
Who else but "consumer bodies" would team up in a case such as this? Certainly not Departments of Labor. Nor Ministries of Transportation. Nor Departments of Defense.
Each country in Europe has a minister responsible for trade and industry and also usually one for culture too. Consumer bodies lobby these ministers who will then take it up at the political level directly with their fellow ministers in the other country to which they're at issue with. Or in Europe, pass it on to the European Commission or Parliament.
Again, in your quest to be "technically" correct, you are, IMHO, missing the larger point: That the iTunes/DRM issue is going to become much larger..... whether his happens in what is defined as "Europe", or "EU", or "Euro-zone" or whatever one might call the broad geographical grouping on the other side of the Atlantic is less the issue.
I agree, it may yet become a larger issue, but, there is a BIG difference between 'Europe' and the 'EU'. One is geographic and the other is political. That's the crux of this story as it's not really hit the political level in Europe but is spreading geographically. With no political power though, the complainers are going nowhere.
The exception being Norway who may yet unilaterally apply fines on Apple. Norway being outside the EU (ie. no direct political influence) will find it hard to influence other countries, particularly when this is a fine imposed without Norway's government's say so.
Apple should immediately pull out of Norway, to show France and Germany in concrete terms what will happen if they follow the same path.
And when customers go the iTunes Store Norway have a big banner with the phone number of their local member of parliament to call if they want it reopened.
Then they'll get the real public opinion rather than a few whinging pirates (Grrr) who'll find another excuse not to buy anyway.
1) "..music bought from the iTunes music store should not be restrited to playing only on Apple hardware/software..." - Done - I can play it on any CD player at the same quality as an iPod and I can play on HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. etc. etc. hardware using free software. So this assertion is false on its face.
That is a hole in the Norwegian ombudsmen's argument but it's a stupid one. Why are you defending it btw? Seems odd that someone would defend DRM and all the hoops you have to go through to bypass it just to get a lower quality song on someone else's mp3 player.
I believe the real issue it access to the iPod, not using the music elsewhere.
It's not. Read the complaint.
As has been pointed out many time, total iTune music sales are a small portion of illegal downloads and other purchases. Again, if you don't like the iTunes offerings there are Many Many other choices. No monopoly here.
Ah, we're back to the strawman.
2) I'm not really sure but I believe the number of computers has not changed. But if so this could/should be adjusted. A very minor point.
It should, but that's the law in Norway and Apple have broken it.
3) Of course consumers want more for less. As I've already said that's not always practical or possible. I want no taxes and all social services - not going to happen.
Ah, your second strawman in the same argument. Consumers aren't wanting more for less. The whole point of the complaint is that they should have the SAME media rights as under existing systems like CD, tape, DVD and records that they've had for decades.
By the same token, perhaps Apple should start by pulling out of the US, since, after all, the SEC is going after its CEO for options backdating?
You jest, but actually a lot of small US companies are now doing their IPOs in London because US accounting rules have become too onerous. New York is now reduced to third in the world in term of IPOs. So Americans are not afraid to take their business out of America if needed. When Microsoft was being bullied a few years ago they raised the prospect of moving to Canada.
2 Billion songs sold and counting does not mean much if Apple have to pay royalties to the record companies and artists , their internet partners as well as maintaining the iTMS infrastructure worldwide. The iPod family are the ones that are making a profit for Apple , any profit they can get from the music store is a plus for them and their shareholders.
Apple made 634 million last quarter from iTunes and iPod accessories. And 3.4 billion from selling iPods. IIRC they sold about 500 million tracks between the iTV unveiling and MWSF so even if they made 10c on each song profit, that's 50 million. In the grand scheme of Apple profits, that's not a lot, but then it's not 'breaking even' either.
And of course, that's just direct profit. Indirectly, it's strategically important that Apple has a successful music store. You never know, Microsoft might amaze us one day by doing something right. ok that's a little far fetched
That is a hole in the Norwegian ombudsmen's argument but it's a stupid one. Why are you defending it btw? Seems odd that someone would defend DRM and all the hoops you have to go through to bypass it just to get a lower quality song on someone else's mp3 player.
DRM doesn need a defense, or not. Its a choice. Use it/don't. Having an MP3 player is not an inalienable right. I don't have to go through the hoops, its simply an offering, one among many. I personnally buy CD's and put them on my iPod, for all the reasons already stated. I can do that on any player.
I always love it when a false argument is justfied by basically saying "That's not what I really meant". "Don't look at the man behind the curtain." If an argument is false, its false. Its not a hole, its incorrect.
It's not. Read the complaint.
I know that's what's written, which is one of my points - actions and words are not lining up therefore I question the motivations.
Ah, your second strawman in the same argument. Consumers aren't wanting more for less. The whole point of the complaint is that they should have the SAME media rights as under existing systems like CD, tape, DVD and records that they've had for decades.
This is the real strawman - They're not rights. Music was and is a product that is sold under an agreement. DRM is a new agreement. iTunes is one version of the agreement. Take it/Leave it - your choice. If you think consumers don't want this and are willing to pay the same, or more for a different agreement, go to it - a business opportunity. But in any case as has been pointed out they have not lost any rights, they been offered a new opportunity which they can accept, or not. All the old rights - CD's, tapes, and if you're really dilligent vinyl are still available.
Apple made 634 million last quarter from iTunes and iPod accessories. And 3.4 billion from selling iPods. IIRC they sold about 500 million tracks between the iTV unveiling and MWSF so even if they made 10c on each song profit, that's 50 million. In the grand scheme of Apple profits, that's not a lot, but then it's not 'breaking even' either.
And of course, that's just direct profit. Indirectly, it's strategically important that Apple has a successful music store. You never know, Microsoft might amaze us one day by doing something right. ok that's a little far fetched
As long as Steve Ballmer is running Microsoft , then you are right.
DRM doesn need a defense, or not. Its a choice. Use it/don't.
Again with the strawman.
The complaint isn't about choice. It's about what Apple is selling in Norway and Norwegian consumer law.
From OUT-LAW.COM since they seem to have the only decent article on this...
"The Norwegian Consumer Council, Forbrukerradet, lodged a complaint with the Ombudsman on behalf of Norwegian consumers claiming that the Fairplay DRM system acted against the interests of consumers. It said that the fact that the technology stopped songs bought from iTunes being played on any player other than an iPod broke the law in Norway.
The Ombudsman has now agreed, according to Torgeir Waterhouse, senior advisor at the Consumer Council.
"It doesn't get any clearer than this. Fairplay is an illegal lock-in technology whose main purpose is to lock the consumers to the total package provided by Apple by blocking interoperability," Waterhouse told OUT-LAW.COM. "For all practical purposes this means that iTunes Music Store is trying to kill off one the most important building blocks in a well functioning digital society, interoperability, in order to boost its own profits."
Waterhouse said that the Ombudsman has written to Apple to say that it believes that Apple's Fairplay system is illegal. "iTunes Music Store must remove its illegal lock-in technology or appear in court," he said. "As of right now we're heading for a big breakthrough that will hopefully pave the way for consumers everywhere to regain control of music they legally purchase."
The Consumer Council believes that Apple has only three options: it can license Fairplay to any manufacturer that wants iTunes songs to play on its machines; it can co-develop an open standard with other companies; or it can abandon DRM altogether.
The Ombudsman has also backed the Consumer Council's claim that the DRM technology is not simply a copy protection scheme. The Council had argued that in restricting consumers' use of music so heavily the technology broke contract law in Norway.
"The Ombudsman has confirmed our claim that the DRM must be considered part of the contract terms and not a copy protection scheme only," said Waterhouse. "This means that under the Norwegian Marketing Control Act the DRM must provide balanced and fair rights to the consumer when they purchase music form iTunes Music Store and similar download services."
"Apple is aware of the concerns we've heard from several agencies in Europe and we're looking forward to resolving these issues as quickly as possible,? Apple spokesman Tom Neumayr told AP news agency earlier this week. ?Apple hopes that European governments will encourage a competitive environment that lets innovation thrive, protects intellectual property and allows consumers to decide which products are successful.?"
http://out-law.com/page-7691
Again with the strawman.
The complaint isn't about choice. It's about what Apple is selling in Norway and Norwegian consumer law.
From OUT-LAW.COM since they seem to have the only decent article on this...
http://out-law.com/page-7691
You must really like strawmen. I wasn't responding to the 'complaint' with this comment about choice and DRM, but to your assertion that I was defending DRM - so no strawmen here.
I have already read the article you post and maintain that the complaint is ill-founded. Apple has provided for extensive interoperability, far more that any other DRM based system. Can you take a play-for-sure and burn it to a CD? (I actually don't know this) A Zune? (I'm pretty sure not) I have stated how it is interoperable with many many other systems - not all. So why is this being pursed against the least offender out there? Just a guess, but ?money?.
Again, DRM is not an Apple choice but their solution is the best one out there.
With that part I agree.
Fair competition is in place. Norwegian consumers had plenty of information informing them that the iTMS only worked with iPods
If you don't want to buy/use an iPod, buy your songs elsewhere.
There was nothing devious or under-handed done by Apple.
I agree also with someones earlier comment, X-Box and Playstation games lock you into their respective consoles.
Msoft and Zune
Competition is in place and is working. You have a choice. Buy from iTMS (sorry iT store) or not.
Purchase DRM music and the Artist receives (some) just rewards for their work.
File share, rip cd's russian mp3's and the artist gets nothing
That is not an equivalent thing at all.
The reason you can't play an Xbox game on another console is because the Xbox represents a hardware platform that Microsoft consider to be state-of-the-art at the time of development to trade-off retail price, performance, and profits. Games then have to be written to target that hardware platform to obtain decent performance, and this requires considerable effort.
A music player on the other hand, is much more of a generic platform. Any player on the market is technically capable of decoding AAC (even if the manufacturers haven't implemented an AAC codec, they could if they wanted to), and therefore the only thing stopping them playing iTunes Store downloads is FairPlay DRM.
Whilst licensing FairPlay may do Apple some damage, it is difficult to deny that Apple being forced to licence FairPlay would be good for the consumer.
"When you buy a music CD it doesn't play only on players made by Panasonic," Kouwen declared. "People who download a song from iTunes shouldn't be bound to an iPod for the rest of their lives."
CDs are generic. iTunes was created BY APPLE. iPods ARE MADE FOR iTunes. The real culprit is DRM aka RIAA
You must really like strawmen. I wasn't responding to the 'complaint' with this comment about choice and DRM, but to your assertion that I was defending DRM - so no strawmen here.
Well, you are though.
I have already read the article you post and maintain that the complaint is ill-founded. Apple has provided for extensive interoperability, far more that any other DRM based system. Can you take a play-for-sure and burn it to a CD? (I actually don't know this) A Zune? (I'm pretty sure not) I have stated how it is interoperable with many many other systems - not all. So why is this being pursed against the least offender out there? Just a guess, but ?money?.
Again, DRM is not an Apple choice but their solution is the best one out there.
Format shifting is illegal in many EU countries. I'd guess in Norway too. Until last year, ripping to an iPod was actually illegal in the UK. Even then, it's hardly a practical solution that you've got to burn it to CD (under the playlist restriction) then re-rip a substandard copy degrading it further.
If you think that's acceptable then enjoy your restrictions.
I do believe that this will become an EU-wide issue in the near future, and this is not the last we will hear of it. It is not (quite) there yet, but it will soon be.
If this ever reaches a legal trial at the EU level (which I doubt) I really can't see how Apple can lose and be forced to change its ways, for the following reasons:
1) There is still competition and choice
2) The music bought from the iTunes store is playable on any computer
3) There are work-arounds (albeit involving quality-losses) to have the music playable on all other MP3 players
On the other hand, I find it very reasonable to believe that the EU will at some point force Apple to open up its national iTunes stores in the EU to consumers from other EU countries. In my view, the current system is violating the treaties regarding a EU-wide open market with free movement of goods and services. I am actually surprised that this issue has not been discussed more yet.
/Galex