Steve Jobs: Apple would embrace DRM-free music 'in a heartbeat'

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  • Reply 161 of 175
    sennensennen Posts: 1,467member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shetline View Post


    But sometimes you can... especially if you don't automatically roll over and play dead for corporate interests over your own.



    Why are you so eager for corporate interests to win out over greater consumer freedoms and rights?



    well, i happen to think we've got it pretty good to be honest! i can download tracks at a reasonable price from iTS if i want to get something quickly and easily, and i find the restrictions aren't terribly restrictive! (ie not at all) OR i can buy the cd if i want the physical product with artwork, lyrics etc as well as the freedom to rip it to my hard drive at whatever settings i choose.



    i don't believe that apple are the bad guys in all this - they're in it for the money like anyone else but you are NOT restricted to only buying music from them. ideally it would be good to get 192kbps+, but i can get that or better from cd of course, and one day it prob will be able to get that on iTS. it is the record companies that are driving the DRM thing.



    again, why is it only up to apple to provide for all of your needs?
  • Reply 163 of 175
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    They aren't trying to close the store, they're trying to make Apple obey the law. It's not necessary to close retailers down if you can persuade them to change their ways.



    With the understanding that Norway is too small a market to force a change if Apple likely wouldn't have changed for France and would have pulled out of there.



    So in effect, folks that can add 1+1 understand that successful "consumer action" in Norway would result in...closing the store.



    Quote:

    That's how ombudsmen and regulators work in any industry. They fine the law breakers until they comply after enough warning. In Apple's case they have until March to say what they'll do and till October to do it.



    And the only response that Apple will give is No. If you fine us, the resolution will be no more iTunes store for Norway...we'll see if we can open a generic European one and lock countries out that whine too much.



    Quote:

    No that's exactly what they want. They want music to be able to be played on any player no matter where you bought it without overly restrictive rights management so that you're free to use any player and other companies are free to participate in a market otherwise dominated by one closed system.



    No what they want is the equivalent of "Porshe...your new engine is too good and now you've dominated the sports car market. We want to force you to license your engine to everyone so they can compete".



    The rejoinder is "um, why don't you spend the R&D money to go build better cars and engines?"



    Quote:

    They ARE encouraging people to stop buying iTMS products until this is corrected. 22 songs on average on an iPod capable of 1000 (Jobs' figures) is FAR from a ringing endorsement of the deal iTMS gives consumers so I've no idea how you can 'obviously' speak for most consumers in Norway.



    So it'll be no big loss to Apple to close the Norway store in comparison to record companies pulling their libraries if they feel FairPlay is now compromised.



    Quote:

    The free market isn't an answer for everything, that's why there are laws. And of course, this is Norway, not America, so it has a completely different political, cultural and societal make-up. Frankly, Americans telling Norwegians how to run their country is patronising and completely none of their business. But if Apple wants to operate in Norway, then abiding by their laws is a given.



    There are plenty of folks willing to tell Americans they suck. Its an Apple board...what on earth do you expect when some dinky official in some tiny country thinks he can do what France could not? It's a) grandstanding and b) stupid to issue ultimatums that will simply hurt your consumers even if you succeed. He does it because it would likely be political suicide to do to a EU or Norweigan company. But hey...Apple...high profile and a US company when the US is out of favor in Europe.



    Bottom line is Apple doesn't care THAT much about the ITS...as long as Norway buys iPods anyway for their CD collections. Its not like any other on-line system (other than piracy) is unencumbered.



    And while the free market system sucks...it sucks less than the alternatives. And not all laws are praiseworthy. Some are downright stupid. That doesn't mean that laws aren't useful or good just that "its the law" isn't an automatic rebuttal.



    Vinea
  • Reply 164 of 175
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    With the understanding that Norway is too small a market to force a change if Apple likely wouldn't have changed for France and would have pulled out of there.



    So in effect, folks that can add 1+1 understand that successful "consumer action" in Norway would result in...closing the store.



    France's request and Norway's are entirely different. France were asking Apple to give their DRM away to competitors. Norway are asking them to remove the DRM. Apple don't want to do the former but at least according to Jobs, they want to do the latter.



    It doesn't necessarily follow that they'd close the store if they had to sell without DRM. Perhaps they'll make an exception and not sell from the majors in Norway. It's possible, and Norway's legal interference gives them the get out clause to do so.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    And the only response that Apple will give is No. If you fine us, the resolution will be no more iTunes store for Norway...we'll see if we can open a generic European one and lock countries out that whine too much.



    Except they can't do that. The reason they have separate European stores is to protect the home markets the record companies have in each member state. This has been challenged before, back in 2004 when it was more expensive to buy from the UK store than the German store.



    Sure, they can take their ball away and play with it elsewhere. It has been argued that music stores being forced out of Norway would actually benefit Apple as it gives them a better bargaining power with the record companies.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    No what they want is the equivalent of "Porshe...your new engine is too good and now you've dominated the sports car market. We want to force you to license your engine to everyone so they can compete".



    The rejoinder is "um, why don't you spend the R&D money to go build better cars and engines?"



    No, it's not about competition.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    So it'll be no big loss to Apple to close the Norway store in comparison to record companies pulling their libraries if they feel FairPlay is now compromised.



    I suspect not, no, provided of course the other stores pull out too.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    There are plenty of folks willing to tell Americans they suck. Its an Apple board...what on earth do you expect when some dinky official in some tiny country thinks he can do what France could not? It's a) grandstanding and b) stupid to issue ultimatums that will simply hurt your consumers even if you succeed. He does it because it would likely be political suicide to do to a EU or Norweigan company. But hey...Apple...high profile and a US company when the US is out of favor in Europe.



    Except they're doing it to European stores also. There's four stores mentioned in the complaint. Only two are American so your jingoism is misplaced.



    And as I've said multiple times they CAN'T legally take the record companies on since the contract is between Apple and the record companies, not the consumers.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Bottom line is Apple doesn't care THAT much about the ITS...as long as Norway buys iPods anyway for their CD collections. Its not like any other on-line system (other than piracy) is unencumbered.



    emusic?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    And while the free market system sucks...it sucks less than the alternatives. And not all laws are praiseworthy. Some are downright stupid. That doesn't mean that laws aren't useful or good just that "its the law" isn't an automatic rebuttal.



    You're welcome to that opinion. I'd imagine most of Norway would disagree being as it's a center-left socialist / green alliance led country. Like much of Europe, we keep strong checks on the 'free market' to stop it becoming unfair.
  • Reply 165 of 175
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sennen View Post


    well, i happen to think we've got it pretty good to be honest!



    That doesn't stop me from wanting better, especially since the impediment to a better system is a purely gratuitous and artificial impediment, supported by a framework of IP law which has gone way too far out of whack favoring the big guy over the little guy.



    You have to think about the future here -- not just the present where buying CDs is still an option, but beyond when CDs have gone the way of the dinosaur, everything is online distribution, and we could be living in DRM hell if the content providers get their way on everything they want.



    Quote:

    again, why is it only up to apple to provide for all of your needs?



    It isn't only up to them. I'd like to see better protection of fair use rights no matter who is limiting those rights -- Apple's just a prime example.
  • Reply 166 of 175
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,960member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    France's request and Norway's are entirely different. France were asking Apple to give their DRM away to competitors. Norway are asking them to remove the DRM. Apple don't want to do the former but at least according to Jobs, they want to do the latter.



    I didn't see where Norway is requiring Apple to remove the DRM.



    The argument seemd to me to be that Apple can change the contract, and isn't interoperable, the two main points.



    If Norway wants Apple to remove the DRM, then they (Norway) are in direct opposition to every other country involved in this, as well as all of those who aren't. France, for example, made the laws against breaking DRM even harsher than they were before.



    Essentially, because of this, IF Norway wants Apple to remove the DRM, Apple can't comply.



    It seems difficult to believe that the authorities in Norway would be so stupid as to think they could require Aple to do something that all other governments are opposed to, as well as the content providers, who lobby those governments to prevent it from happening.
  • Reply 167 of 175
    sennensennen Posts: 1,467member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shetline View Post


    That doesn't stop me from wanting better, especially since the impediment to a better system is a purely gratuitous and artificial impediment, supported by a framework of IP law which has gone way too far out of whack favoring the big guy over the little guy.



    You have to think about the future here -- not just the present where buying CDs is still an option, but beyond when CDs have gone the way of the dinosaur, everything is online distribution, and we could be living in DRM hell if the content providers get their way on everything they want.





    It isn't only up to them. I'd like to see better protection of fair use rights no matter who is limiting those rights -- Apple's just a prime example.





    that's all fair enough and it is good to want better (tho' i'm not sure i need to carry production quality music around with me all day), i just think that blaming apple for this is a misdirection of energy... let them know your needs, but really if people are going to take on anyone it should be the record companies....
  • Reply 168 of 175
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    This can all be looked at from another direction. Many want to accuse Apple of profiting from locking people into iTunes and iPod.



    Apple is more likely leaving money on the table not licensing FairPlay. At this point FairPlay would be at the height of its popularity. Apple could charge a premium sum for its use.



    Download sites would pay because they want access to the iPod and mp3 makers would pay because they want access to iTunes.



    At this point the iPod/iTunes have such momentum that neither really need the other to continue their success. Apple only need to continue to add services to iTunes and continue radical new development of the iPod.
  • Reply 169 of 175
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sennen View Post


    that's all fair enough and it is good to want better (tho' i'm not sure i need to carry production quality music around with me all day), i just think that blaming apple for this is a misdirection of energy... let them know your needs, but really if people are going to take on anyone it should be the record companies....



    I'm all for putting more pressure on the record labels directly, but putting pressure on Apple for its DRM policies, deserved or not, puts indirect pressure on the labels -- and with the labels having already purchased so much IP law in their favor, indirect pressure may be the best we've got.
  • Reply 170 of 175
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,960member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    This can all be looked at from another direction. Many want to accuse Apple of profiting from locking people into iTunes and iPod.



    Apple is more likely leaving money on the table not licensing FairPlay. At this point FairPlay would be at the height of its popularity. Apple could charge a premium sum for its use.



    Download sites would pay because they want access to the iPod and mp3 makers would pay because they want access to iTunes.



    At this point the iPod/iTunes have such momentum that neither really need the other to continue their success. Apple only need to continue to add services to iTunes and continue radical new development of the iPod.



    That's very possible. There is lock-out as well.
  • Reply 171 of 175
    Aah, how I love a well-aimed shot across the bow. Steve?s comments say a couple things so clearly. First, It?s obvious that Steve Jobs loves music. Sure, the iPod and iTunes are great business for Apple. But from the beginning of the company, through Steve?s triumphant return and the launch of the iMac, to iTunes and Garage Band and the many incarnations of the iPod, music has been at the very center of what Steve Jobs and Apple create. The musicians invited to perform at product releases are never the headliners at the event, but it sure is a nice touch, isn?t it? And it reminds us all, every time, what these products are really about and why Apple puts such passionate devotion into the technical and tactile aspects of each one. It?s about the music and how it stirs the soul. Personally, I think the iPod is the greatest invention since sliced bread. Think about these life changing music inventions: the gramophone (music in your home, on demand!), the portable record player (and stack of 45?s ? party to go), the transistor radio (1965, I was 5 when my grandpa, an appliance salesman, gave me my first. I still remember searching the dial to find ?Snoopy vs. the Red Baron? by The Royal Guardsmen again. This was the first 45 I ever purchased.) Even the much maligned 8-track, which allowed us to bring our own music on the road. The iPod joins - and dare I say leads? ?this illustrious pack and we have Steve Jobs and his team at Apple to thank.



    Second, as anyone even remotely connected to the music industry knows? and by remotely I mean anyone who has ever purchased a CD ? it really is and has been ?Us versus Them? and Steve Jobs is with ?Us?. I, for one, am glad to see him lead this charge. I agree with his often referenced past comments that iTunes works because most people WANT to pay for their digital music. Most of us want to do the right thing and support the artist who creates the music we live to and love. Apple made it easy to do and Napster died a quick death. As Steve points out, the fears that led the music industry to insist on DRM were baseless. Cd?s continue to sell in record amounts. I buy cd?s. I like having a hard copy (sound quality, artwork, something to hold and read) and save my iTunes purchases for exclusives and the rare single track I want. Obviously, I?m not alone, and equally obviously, the music industry still doesn?t trust us



    I?ll admit that until recently I had a lot of copied music I didn?t come by legitimately. I recently spent a long weekend and a few tears dumping it all ? nearly 1000 cd?s worth. I had eventually grown weary of the morally ambiguous arguments I used to justify my piracy ? the music industry ?owed? me for years of price fixing, they care about profit 1st and quality last (remember the crap vinyl of the late 70?s and early 80?s? I worked at Chrystalship Records in Portland and we dumped Crates of returned lps that skipped and warped right out of the sleeve.) I don?t say this to lecture anyone, but to point out that what happened next surprised me. I found I appreciate the music more now that I buy it all. New music feels like it did in high school, when I saved for my twice monthly trips to Music Millenium or Renaissance Records for the latest Yardbirds or Roxy Music import. I?m getting to know my local record store again (still Millennium). I also learned that, for me, all the copying had cheapened the product ? when I wasn?t paying for it, that was the amount I valued it. Now, I?m more deliberate about what I add to my collection and, corny as it sounds, I feel more closely tied to the musicians who create it. I can?t help thinking that while Apple has made it easier to access music, they have also maintained a respect for the artist who creates it. Is it possible that what the music industry fears is that with this increased intimacy and immediacy between the listener and the artist that digital downloading facilitates, there will soon be no room for the ?Industry? in music? They?re out of valid excuses and continue to clutch at DRM like a kid with a threadbare security blanket they no longer need. Eliminating DRM is the right thing to do ? for the artist and the consumer. I look forward to this battle - It?s time for DRM to go.
  • Reply 172 of 175
    Hi there. I'm new to the forum.



    This letter's sudden arrival on Apple's website surprised me to say the least and I can only imagine how powerful Steve Jobs feels... he writes this letter (it's very good in my opinion) and suddenly it's all over news websites all around the globe and has caused a flurry of discussion on all sorts of forums.



    There's a reason for everything I think. Why has Apple/Steve suddenly decided to announce that they are in support of DRM-free music when previously they have shown no interest in disposing of DRM?
  • Reply 173 of 175
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,960member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by agent_orange View Post


    Hi there. I'm new to the forum.



    This letter's sudden arrival on Apple's website surprised me to say the least and I can only imagine how powerful Steve Jobs feels... he writes this letter (it's very good in my opinion) and suddenly it's all over news websites all around the globe and has caused a flurry of discussion on all sorts of forums.



    There's a reason for everything I think. Why has Apple/Steve suddenly decided to announce that they are in support of DRM-free music when previously they have shown no interest in disposing of DRM?



    Jobs has stated, years ago, that DRM was not a good thing. This is nothing new.



    http://news.com.com/Apple+unveils+mu..._3-998590.html



    As to the timing, that's obvious. Apple is under pressure. Jobs, therefore, has reiterated his, and by extention, Apple's longstanding views on this.



    As a businessman, Jobs understands that sometimes what is best isn't practical. Therefore one goes with what is.



    In this case, it was in persuading the content providers to lower their prices by more than half, almost by two thirds in some cases. At the same time he proposed a DRM that was far less restrictive than anything else at the time, and less than most (if not all) others even today.



    http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/feat...nes/index.html



    By restating his position now, he is telling everyone that Apple would continue (remember his views in the past!) to prefer selling content without DRM, if possible.
  • Reply 174 of 175
    I stand corrected
  • Reply 175 of 175
    Just curious. Isn't there already a program that can strip the DRM from iTMS purchased songs? I don't see what the big deal is. Yes, sure, I'd love to no be restricted and have to do work-arounds too... but lets face its. The Big music companies simply will not allow it. C'mon anyone with a brain can surely realize that.
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