Help me convince my PC friend

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Hey guys, first post here. Hopefully I'm in the right forum.



So, I'm not an Ubergeek computer guy, but I love my iMac and iPod. I love how well Apple designs their products and how user friendly they are. I would never switch back to a PC now that I have a Mac.



I have a friend that knowing how much I like my Mac's, has decided to flood me with reasons why Apple computers are inferior to PC's. Not knowing any real computer lingo have nothing to back up what I say.



So, here's my question. His latest "comparison" is that Macs are like Subaru's (which my wife owns). They are good for what they are built for, but they are simply that. You cannot lift a Subaru to go offroading, but they have all wheel drive. You cannot upgrade a Mac to make it perform better or work better with new hardware that comes out. Use it and then when it's falling apart, throw it away. Horrible comparison. I've already found a few websites which sell lift kits for Subaru's which I will send to him. How about upgrading a Mac? No doubt you can upgrade memory, processers, video cards, etc right? Maybe not an iMac since it's sealed as one unit? Sorry if this sounds like I'm secretly a PC troll but I need some good stuff to answer back with.



Give me some help here, fellow Apple lovers.



By the way, he secretly thought my OSX was neat when he saw it the other day. He kept saying, "Oh yeah, Vista is going to do the same thing...."
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 28
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    It's a fact that most of Apple's line-up is not as upgradable as the average PC tower.



    It is also a fact that the vast majority of people who own PCs never crack open the box-- the average PC "upgrade" consists of just buying a whole new machine.



    Given that, you might point out that the whole "use it till it falls apart then throw it away" thing is a little ironic given that Mac users tend to keep their machines far longer than their PC counterparts. It truly is the cheap PC that is the "disposable" computer.



    There are plenty of Mac folk who wish that Apple would offer a cheap (or at least cheaper) mini-tower machine with easy to swap HDD, video card, and RAM, but the whole "Macs aren't upgradable" thing is really beside the point, for most people.
  • Reply 2 of 28
    galleygalley Posts: 971member
    You can easily upgrade RAM and hard drives on MacBooks.
  • Reply 3 of 28
    ipeonipeon Posts: 1,122member
    It is very hard, almost impossible, to convince someone who has false information about something to change his mind about it, specially when his goal is solely set on making you wrong no matter what you show him.



    The solution is to strip away the false information, but in order for this to happen he has to be whiling to look at the true data.



    The wrong way, is to challenge his belief. That will result in a games condition where he is trying to prove you wrong no matter what and will never look at the facts presented to him.



    Stick with the facts and never challenge his beliefs, just keep showing him the true data in a non-challenging manner. Be his friend even if he attacks what you know to be true or false, and recognize when you are being the victim of a silly game that is being played upon you. More likely than not, he's not interested in learning about what you are showing him, he just wants to F**k with you, if that is the case, the best remedy is to just smile letting him know that you know what he is trying to do, in other words, don't play his game.



    Good luck.
  • Reply 4 of 28
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,195moderator
    In a way it's true though. When the Geforce 8800GTX came out, people were trying to get it to work with the Mac and the only one you can use it with is the Mac Pro and even then it doesn't work as well as it could. Although computers tend not to be upgraded, the fact remains that Macs can't be significantly upgraded whether the majority of people need to or not so it's a negative mark against them. I would overlook it if Apple offered better BTO options like Dell but they don't.



    Now if I can't convince a PC user to buy a more expensive, less upgradable, less easily serviced machine based on the fact it's better designed and quieter, I go to the software. There I find that OS X is more powerful and nicer looking having a unix core but that means squat to most people. XP can have themes so people can personalise their machine, it's snappy and it runs a huge amount of software well. OS X still has a boatload of professional software still shipping as PPC (Maya, Adobe suite etc) that is going to take months to get optimized for Intel.



    In summary, Macs are the epitome of form over function for most people. I personally couldn't do without the unix base but beyond that, the Mac doesn't offer any advantage that I can see. It's simpler to use but given that most people get by with Windows, it can't mean that much to people.
  • Reply 5 of 28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iPeon View Post


    It is very hard, almost impossible, to convince someone who has false information about something to change his mind about it, specially when his goal is solely set on making you wrong no matter what you show him.

    ...,

    in other words, don't play his game.



    Good luck.



    Pretty good answer.

    The problem is, his "Friend" (whatever that does suppose to mean.)

    is constantly throwing in another monkey-wrench for no sane reason.

    Catch 22, i call it.



    Advice to OP: Just let him be. Play a wee bit Exposé (maybe you hold down

    shift key while doing so), let him watch casually. Tell him randomly that the Mac

    is probably not for him, tell him, that this is just a hunch buried deep in

    your heart.



    Btw, and this is just for kicks, create a Folder and name it "Virus cage",

    then download PC viruses (the more you get, the better the reaction)

    from the Internet or save Spammail attachments respectively.

    Store them all into that particular Folder, have Fun.



    Download (make sure he is watching behind your back) a couple of

    freeware games or other free/shareware software from the Internet.

    Drag them into your Application Folder (or better, create a Folder within

    your Homefolder and drag the downloaded Apps into that folder, start the

    Apps, evaluate them a wee bit, then you drag the Apps into the trash.

    App uninstalled, job done.



    Or: Open any editable kind of a document, edit that particular document a bit

    (say, type in some words). Than tell yourself, that you just have the idea or the need

    to move that particular document to another part of your HD. Just do it while the doc is open.

    Rename it for that matter while the doc is open. Have Fun.



    And so on and so on. The Mac OS lets you accomplish anything you want easily,

    things you wouldn't want to do on Win-bloody-ows for christ sake.

    And this is just the top of the Iceberg





    EDIT: Obviously they cut off the 5 Pic restriction. Good thing.
  • Reply 6 of 28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    ...

    In summary, Macs are the epitome of form over function for most people. I personally couldn't do without the unix base but beyond that, the Mac doesn't offer any advantage that I can see. It's simpler to use but given that most people get by with Windows, it can't mean that much to people.



    I can understand what you mean, Marvin. And i have to confess

    that i have no truely profound argument against it.

    I think everything boils down to taste and aestetics. I don't like

    analogies, particularily Car-logies. But sometimes an Analogy

    tells you more in a beat. Say, Silverware. You can manage to eat

    with 99 penny Forks quite easily, no problem. But the moment you grab

    AND use a 99 Dollar Fork you experience a huge difference. Some people

    experience. And some don't. Same with Whiskey. Same with cell phones.

    Maybe you get the Picture.



    For the last sentence in your post: Well, Windows customers are really

    trained to suffer for a long long time. Their conception of how

    computers have to work is burned into their brain. But they get by with

    it as you pointed out. It is like to get used to a very tiny almost unvisible

    disability nobody wants to talk about, because it is a little bit embarrassing.

    It really effects your daily life, but you just got used to the way everything is

    organised. Microsoft teached their User base awfully well, resistance is futile.



    MS customers just got used to insane GUI Designs and Decisions like people

    got used to annoying and idiotic remote controls of TVs and Recorders.

    Mostly customers used to think this is the status quo of interaction with electronic

    devices. Well.
  • Reply 7 of 28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    ...

    It is also a fact that the vast majority of people who own PCs never crack open the box-- the average PC "upgrade" consists of just buying a whole new machine.

    ...



    Yeah, actually that's another myth regarding upgradeability of PCs.

    It is a huge selling point but in reality people don't upgrade. Except Gamers.

    They like to upgrade the Vid-Card, if necessary.

    (Though, based on sold Vid-Card in retail and games,

    although impressive, it is a relatively small number, not to say

    neglectable.)
  • Reply 8 of 28
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    It has Apple reliability. IMO, the iMac is a machine for basic to light computer users. for them it is a very good and thoughtful design. For medium to high end users like your friend, it is a very poor design compared to a tower. For such a user the iMac will have a short life cycle and probably require an army of external devices cluttering the desk.
  • Reply 9 of 28
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Vox Barbara View Post


    Yeah, actually that's another myth regarding upgradeability of PCs.

    It is a huge selling point but in reality people don't upgrade. Except Gamers.

    They like to upgrade the Vid-Card, if necessary.

    (Though, based on sold Vid-Card in retail and games,

    although impressive, it is a relatively small number, not to say

    neglectable.)



    Most people really don't anything larger than a four banger in a car either. When buying a computer most want something a bit more future proof whether they actually use it or not.
  • Reply 10 of 28
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    It has Apple reliability. IMO, the iMac is a machine for basic to light computer users. for them it is a very good and thoughtful design. For medium to high end users like your friend, it is a very poor design compared to a tower. For such a user the iMac will have a short life cycle and probably require an army of external devices cluttering the desk.



    A current computer with a stock C2D CPU, gig of ram, 180-250GB HDD, full compliment of ports and a DVD burner is not "light duty" and is not likely to need an "army" of external devices cluttering the desk, unless you were planning to do a lot of 3D modeling or HD video production editing.



    You seem to be basing you characterization of the OP's friend as being a "medium to high end user" on the fact that he doesn't think Macs are expandable, and basing your idea of "medium to high end" computing solely on expandability, which simply not true.



    For people that want expandability, the iMac is a poor choice, but there are a lot of people doing a lot of computationally sophisticated things on their iMacs because it provides the computing power they need as is.
  • Reply 11 of 28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    Most people really don't anything larger than a four banger in a car either. When buying a computer most want something a bit more future proof whether they actually use it or not.



    Hear hear.



    Anyway, so future proof is key here? A Mac that lasts about 5-8 years

    and is able to run the latest OS (and other software) easily, despite 8 year old

    internals, that's what i'd call a future proved system eventually.

    Maybe just a gut feeling...
  • Reply 12 of 28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    ...

    For people that want expandability, the iMac is a poor choice, but there are a lot of people doing a lot of computationally sophisticated things on their iMacs because it provides the computing power they need as is.



    Very true.
  • Reply 13 of 28
    Thanks guys, this is all good stuff. Keep it coming. Just for the record, this is a good hearted ribbing by my friend. In fact, my other neighbor and I are both Mac guys and he screws with him to.



    To clarify, I would say that my friend IS a "high end" computer user(and a gamer). He works for a software company that makes a modeling program where people can test their designs before they build them to see if they will hold up to wieght, wind, etc. He's shown me some of the mock up's and animations he's done and they are pretty impressive. That being said, it seems like a lot of companies that do animation use Mac's as well.



    So it sounds like the whole "upgrading hardware" point really isn't worth going into with him. I just know that my brother, who is all things Mac, does some serious graphical and technical stuff on his G4(I think) tower and has never said, "Man, this thing needs to be upgraded with a new...fill in the blank."



    One thing I have brought up to my friend is the fact that I NEVER get pop-up windows. I NEVER get viruses. I NEVER have a blue screen where I have to restart my computer like I did weekly on my PC. Granted I use my computer for internet surfing, a few Office projects, email, music, and some light video editing, so no major projects that might cause issues.



    I guess part of the reason that I like Apple is the fact that it isn't what everyone has. Macs are different. Maybe I like not being in the norm. PC's are boring and you can buy them at Shopko or Kmart.
  • Reply 14 of 28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    A current computer with a stock C2D CPU, gig of ram, 180-250GB HDD, full compliment of ports and a DVD burner is not "light duty" and is not likely to need an "army" of external devices cluttering the desk, unless you were planning to do a lot of 3D modeling or HD video production editing.



    You seem to be basing you characterization of the OP's friend as being a "medium to high end user" on the fact that he doesn't think Macs are expandable, and basing your idea of "medium to high end" computing solely on expandability, which simply not true.



    For people that want expandability, the iMac is a poor choice, but there are a lot of people doing a lot of computationally sophisticated things on their iMacs because it provides the computing power they need as is.



    That DVD burner is of the mobile variety, about half the speed of its desktop brethren. It has no card reader and only 3 USB 2.0 ports. If you want a second hard drive for time machine, it's an external device, if your not too keen on the 8x burner and want 18x it's external. Need more USB ports and card reader? Before long your desk is cluttered and your power strip has cords all over the place. His friend's PC needs one cord for the CPU and one for the monitor. The extra hard drive, DVD burner, Card reader and large amount of USB ports are all located in that case. You're also out of luck if the mobility radeon x1600 is too anemic for you unless you want the required 24" update. The iMac is for the set up and go crowd.
  • Reply 15 of 28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    That DVD burner is of the mobile variety, about half the speed of its desktop brethren. It has no card reader and only 3 USB 2.0 ports. If you want a second hard drive for time machine, it's an external device, if your not too keen on the 8x burner and want 18x it's external. Need more USB ports and card reader? Before long your desk is cluttered and your power strip has cords all over the place. His friend's PC needs one cord for the CPU and one for the monitor. The extra hard drive, DVD burner, Card reader and large amount of USB ports are all located in that case. You're also out of luck if the mobility radeon x1600 is too anemic for you unless you want the required 24" update. The iMac is for the set up and go crowd.



    Well, this is a wee bit over the top, right?
  • Reply 16 of 28
    I don't know what your friend is talking about, but subaru's can most definitly be driven offroad. Not only that, but there are tons of aftermarket products for them. Not only is he wrong about Macs, but he's wrong about the subaru's.



    Check out these pages...



    http://www.rallysubaru.com/

    http://rally.subaru.com/

    http://www.swrt.com/
  • Reply 17 of 28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by neyoung View Post


    I don't know what your friend is talking about, but subaru's can most definitly be driven offroad. Not only that, but there are tons of aftermarket products for them. Not only is he wrong about Macs, but he's wrong about the subaru's.



    Either way, i can't stand Car-logies anyways. Especially if someone casts in Subaru.

    (Gives me the creeps.)
  • Reply 18 of 28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by neyoung View Post


    I don't know what your friend is talking about, but subaru's can most definitly be driven offroad. Not only that, but there are tons of aftermarket products for them. Not only is he wrong about Macs, but he's wrong about the subaru's.



    Check out these pages...



    http://www.rallysubaru.com/

    http://rally.subaru.com/

    http://www.swrt.com/





    That's what makes his comparison so flawed, Subarus are known for their all wheel drive and rally domination. He was saying that they couldn't be lifted. Like you need to have a lift kit to go off road? Funny, I've never needed a lift kit on my Subaru or Ford truck and I go offroad camping all the time!
  • Reply 19 of 28
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    That DVD burner is of the mobile variety, about half the speed of its desktop brethren. It has no card reader and only 3 USB 2.0 ports. If you want a second hard drive for time machine, it's an external device, if your not too keen on the 8x burner and want 18x it's external. Need more USB ports and card reader? Before long your desk is cluttered and your power strip has cords all over the place. His friend's PC needs one cord for the CPU and one for the monitor. The extra hard drive, DVD burner, Card reader and large amount of USB ports are all located in that case. You're also out of luck if the mobility radeon x1600 is too anemic for you unless you want the required 24" update. The iMac is for the set up and go crowd.



    Sure, you can describe a scenario that requires more stuff. The question is whether "more stuff" legitimately describes a dividing line between "basic to light" and "moderate to heavy" computer use.



    DVD burner speed, number of USB ports and a card reader are not, to my way of thinking, essential ingredients of "serious" computer use. The lack of a powerful video card is a problem only if you're gaming, which again doesn't strike me as a place where the iMac falls down as a "serious" computer, or if you are doing 3D graphics, which is certainly a serious application but hardly the only one.



    I would probably use an iMac with an external drive, which isn't exactly cluttering up my desk with a ton of stuff.



    "The set up and go" crowd include a lot of people who want to do computationally intensive things with their computer, not spend a lot of time setting up and administering their computer. I know graphic artists, film editors, web designers, musicians, sound designers, theater techs, etc. that find an iMac to be a great machine to work on, and they would be bemused to learn that their computing needs were "basic to light".



    Increasingly this kind of work is also done on laptops, including the MacBookPro, but somehow you don't ever hear anyone dismissing such use as "basic to light", I guess because of the portability "cool" factor.
  • Reply 20 of 28
    Right on.

    Btw, the definition of "light tasks" and basic to light computing needs

    is a matter of change anyways. Hey Video editing, say hello iMovie, has been considered

    as a hefty Computer task 5-6 years ago. Nowaday that exact same task became pretty

    common, not to say mainstream. That said task now is accomplished with the cheapest

    Apple Laptop available. That being said i'd say heck something like light task doesn't

    really exist anymore. What do you think?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    ...I would probably use an iMac with an external drive, which isn't exactly cluttering up my desk with a ton of stuff.



    "The set up and go" crowd include a lot of people who want to do computationally intensive things with their computer, not spend a lot of time setting up and administering their computer. I know graphic artists, film editors, web designers, musicians, sound designers, theater techs, etc. that find an iMac to be a great machine to work on, and they would be bemused to learn that their computing needs were "basic to light".



    Increasingly this kind of work is also done on laptops, including the MacBookPro, but somehow you don't ever hear anyone dismissing such use as "basic to light", I guess because of the portability "cool" factor.



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