So, Jobs thinks it is just bad teachers? Like there are no bad exec's? Come on Steve, we all know it is not just bad teachers -- some teachers are that way due to bad Principal's ... if the principal is doing their job, then bad teachers will be weeded out -- no union can protect someone not doing their job Jobs.
How about that tenured College prof? You know the one that is also not very good. They are not union, but have tenure and to dismiss them is an act of congress.
Jobs needs to rethink his ideas .. he needs to step into the classroom (solo) for a month and taste what teachers have to deal with -- and I'm not talking some nice prep school, I'm talking inner city hard core -- some place where being Steven Jobs doesn't mean a thing -- he is just on his own to teach the material and abide by NCLB. Lets see what he has to say after a month of that -- oh, and lets give him a teachers salary too.
It's easy to cast blame and accuse, but I believe things need to start at the top -- look at the District Offices, then Principal's, then teachers ... if they are not performing to requirements, then by all means put them on a plan of improvement and if need be let them go. But, until there is better pay and teaching conditions, those things the teachers unions are trying to get teachers, it is going to be hard to fill these jobs Jobs.
Jobs specifically targetted the Teacher's Union. Which is a horrible mess that protects lazy teachers that need to be fired. Yes, there's other problems as well, but the union is a big part of it. Perhaps if teachers have to start worrying about job security they'll actually do their job.
I tend to agree with everything steve had said regarding education in that interview, that would be the one from 1995.
Thanks for the information from his earlier speech
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy
Just about 13 months ago 13 coal miners died from a mine explosion. The mining company was found to have been negligent in keeping up with safety requirements. So much for a LONG way, huh?
Unions HAVE come a long way in ensuring better working conditions and safety. Systems to increase safety are hugely worthwhile - but don't expect perfection. People will always die in the world (the challenge is to minimise this), there will always be incompetent people (the challenge is to identify these people and retrain or move them to a job they can do!), and companies will always focus on making money (the challenge is to ensure safety & rights, and preferably to identify how to make money and help people).
If you expect perfection then the mines simply close down, everybody in any industry gets fired for one mistake, and the world comes to a halt. Which doesn't actually result in perfection!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton
Steve was invited to showcase Apple's vision for the education market. He was not invited to quarrel with or slander attendees.
On this day he was part of the problem, not part of Apple's solution. He needs to keep these Bad days to a minimum.
I didn't realise he was asked to showcase his vision for the education market. If that's the case he should have done what he was asked to.
So... did he showcase Apple's vision or just talk about the problems?
Happy President's Day. I hope all of my fellow teacher friends enjoyed their day off.
Are you kidding? My kids had school today, and my wife had to teach as well. Any more most of these"holidays" are just reasons for the banks and post office to close. Everyone else still has to work.
Jobs specifically targetted the Teacher's Union. Which is a horrible mess that protects lazy teachers that need to be fired. Yes, there's other problems as well, but the union is a big part of it. Perhaps if teachers have to start worrying about job security they'll actually do their job.
The union also protects many good teachers from abusive conditions. While there is room for improvement, just throwing out the union would make the already miserable teaching profession even worse.
If good teachers have to worry about job security, they have even less incentive to stay in what already can be a pretty shitty profession. The wrong "fix" could easily make education more expensive and lower the quality of teachers. The union is the least of the problems with education in the US right now.
I'm not sure how the rest of the country is stacking up right now, but at least in the southwest portion, the majority (yes, the majority, you read correctly) of students coming into the elementary school system have spanish speaking parents, and do not speak much if any English.
This is not a racist post, just a truly factual one. If you don't believe me, look up the recent statistics on the population ethnicity in this area. When the teachers have to spend the majority of their time teaching what they should've learned 3-5 years earlier, that leaves no time for true-learning activities that most of us grew up with.
Jobs said the problem with U.S. institutions is that they have become unionized to a point where ridding public schools of poor teachers is prohibited. "This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy," he said.
Although Jobs drew enthusiastic applause at various intervals, he acknowledged that his raw criticisms were unlikely to be as well-received by the local school board.
"Apple just lost some business in this state, I'm sure," he said.
Another example of poor business judgment by the "highest paid CEO in America", brought about by his lack of respect for individuals who buy computers that are more expensive just because Steve Jobs said so.
Given his criticism of public teachers, can Steve Jobs expect that public teachers will put their jobs on the line to keep Mac computers in their schools, in spite of lower priced "standard" computers available from the likes of Dell, based in Austin?
We should be done with the inflated ego of a CEO who uses Apple as his piggy bank through back dated stock options.
Treat them like Senators. After 6 years they have to be re-tested, along-side all in academia which will test their qualifications.
Have the test focused around their area of expertise.
Think of it as the GRE for professionals.
Give them two chances before they have to retool themselves. If they can't keep their own educational backgrounds current and solid what good is it to have them teaching the future generations?
Given his criticism of public teachers, can Steve Jobs expect that public teachers will put their jobs on the line to keep Mac computers in their schools, in spite of lower priced "standard" computers available from the likes of Dell, based in Austin?
Nice. .... ?
If Dell is based in Texas, then why not make a political comment in the state least likely to be buying Apple in the first place. (yes, I have NO idea if Apple's sales are lowest in Texas... anyone?). At least the comment gets heard by every state, but may only be taken personally by one.
For the Hard Sciences and Pure Applied Mathematics this is a bad idea.
I'm thinking more in lines of Universities, but it can be addressed at the K-12 if they would stop lowering the degrees of difficulty to get through your grades.
I picked up a 1945 Gradeschool Mathbook and it's level included finance, volumes, areas, advanced algebra, etc.
Today everything is integrated crap.
Supply the latest hardcover books but make the "addendums/updates" in PDF. Give them the option to buy the book since afterall, we buy the books with our taxes.
What does Steve Jobs know about education? We can't all have a friend that creates the greatest computer in the world.
BAD EMPLOYEES exist everywhere and they slide by in companies all over the world. Without bad employees, you wouldn't have anything to compare good ones to.
Being an Apple Fanboy, it hurts me to say this, but Steve hasn't really created anything other than money. It was never his education (or lack there of) that made him great. Some people are great manipulators, some are not. I hardly consider that to be a quality I would want to pass on to others.
He is like the really cool guy in school that is sort of friends with everybody, so this way when he needs to get his homework done, he can ask a nerd to do it for him. If he needs a band to play at his party, he can go talk to the musician types.
I'd love to see Steve put his money where his mouth is. If you have all the answers about education reform, fix it (or pay somebody else to fix it). He's just pissed nobody uses Apple Computers in schools anymore.
I'll love you again tomorrow Steve, but not today.
1 company, 1 time? Get real man. We live in a PARADISE compared to 100 years ago. A negligent mine company is by far the exception, not the rule.
We live in an extremely spoiled rotten time. It is more than conceivable that somebody can be born, live a rich childhood with all the toys and experiences, easily go to college, perform mediocrely at work, live a long time, and die with virtually no real hardship in their life. People working a dangeous line of work and getting killed by negligence due to greed is a statistical zero, not a statistical probability.
If everything is so great, why do you sound so unhappy?
I respect Steve Jobs very much for his vision and for the revolution Apple did in the computer world under his guidance.
But I believe he should keep his comments regarding other things to himself.
Today, I think it was a very bad day for him. I wished he kept his mouth shut when he doesn't know what is he talking about education.
I hope this is a learning experience for him.
Actually, it affects him and every American CEOs who are running American based multinational companies . They noticed that they are hiring more immigrants than Americans in their respective businesses because many Americans cannot seem to match the education of their foreign rivals. They know that sooner or later , the lack of quality education will have a devastating effect on this country's technological industries which will make America poorer as a result economically and intellectually.
We need to have teachers feel no threat over the grades they (fairly) give. The school system needs to better defend teachers grades instead of caving into parents.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
I've known many good teachers whose only recourse against bad principals was their unions. Why should principals have the power to fire any teacher, but teachers not have the power to fight back against unfair treatment by school principals and other administrators??? That's what the unions are for, and they are much needed. I'm not sure what Jobs is thinking.
Jobs reportedly told the crowd that he envisioned future schools where textbooks would be replaced with a free, online information source...
Steve Jobs is a certified genius in my book, but even geniuses don't know everything. The suggestion that kids should spend all their study time in front of a computer screen is not reasonable. If you add up the time the average teenager already spends (1) playing video games, (2) surfing the internet and (3) watching tv, it's clear that more screen time is not what these kids need. On the contrary!
I've known many good teachers whose only recourse against bad principals was their unions. Why should principals have the power to fire any teacher, but teachers not have the power to fight back against unfair treatment by school principals and other administrators??? That's what the unions are for, and they are much needed. I'm not sure what Jobs is thinking.
Comments
So, Jobs thinks it is just bad teachers? Like there are no bad exec's? Come on Steve, we all know it is not just bad teachers -- some teachers are that way due to bad Principal's ... if the principal is doing their job, then bad teachers will be weeded out -- no union can protect someone not doing their job Jobs.
How about that tenured College prof? You know the one that is also not very good. They are not union, but have tenure and to dismiss them is an act of congress.
Jobs needs to rethink his ideas .. he needs to step into the classroom (solo) for a month and taste what teachers have to deal with -- and I'm not talking some nice prep school, I'm talking inner city hard core -- some place where being Steven Jobs doesn't mean a thing -- he is just on his own to teach the material and abide by NCLB. Lets see what he has to say after a month of that -- oh, and lets give him a teachers salary too.
It's easy to cast blame and accuse, but I believe things need to start at the top -- look at the District Offices, then Principal's, then teachers ... if they are not performing to requirements, then by all means put them on a plan of improvement and if need be let them go. But, until there is better pay and teaching conditions, those things the teachers unions are trying to get teachers, it is going to be hard to fill these jobs Jobs.
Jobs specifically targetted the Teacher's Union. Which is a horrible mess that protects lazy teachers that need to be fired. Yes, there's other problems as well, but the union is a big part of it. Perhaps if teachers have to start worrying about job security they'll actually do their job.
I tend to agree with everything steve had said regarding education in that interview, that would be the one from 1995.
Thanks for the information from his earlier speech
Just about 13 months ago 13 coal miners died from a mine explosion. The mining company was found to have been negligent in keeping up with safety requirements. So much for a LONG way, huh?
Unions HAVE come a long way in ensuring better working conditions and safety. Systems to increase safety are hugely worthwhile - but don't expect perfection. People will always die in the world (the challenge is to minimise this), there will always be incompetent people (the challenge is to identify these people and retrain or move them to a job they can do!), and companies will always focus on making money (the challenge is to ensure safety & rights, and preferably to identify how to make money and help people).
If you expect perfection then the mines simply close down, everybody in any industry gets fired for one mistake, and the world comes to a halt. Which doesn't actually result in perfection!
Steve was invited to showcase Apple's vision for the education market. He was not invited to quarrel with or slander attendees.
On this day he was part of the problem, not part of Apple's solution. He needs to keep these Bad days to a minimum.
I didn't realise he was asked to showcase his vision for the education market. If that's the case he should have done what he was asked to.
So... did he showcase Apple's vision or just talk about the problems?
Who did he slander?
Happy President's Day. I hope all of my fellow teacher friends enjoyed their day off.
Are you kidding? My kids had school today, and my wife had to teach as well. Any more most of these"holidays" are just reasons for the banks and post office to close. Everyone else still has to work.
Jobs specifically targetted the Teacher's Union. Which is a horrible mess that protects lazy teachers that need to be fired. Yes, there's other problems as well, but the union is a big part of it. Perhaps if teachers have to start worrying about job security they'll actually do their job.
The union also protects many good teachers from abusive conditions. While there is room for improvement, just throwing out the union would make the already miserable teaching profession even worse.
If good teachers have to worry about job security, they have even less incentive to stay in what already can be a pretty shitty profession. The wrong "fix" could easily make education more expensive and lower the quality of teachers. The union is the least of the problems with education in the US right now.
This is not a racist post, just a truly factual one. If you don't believe me, look up the recent statistics on the population ethnicity in this area. When the teachers have to spend the majority of their time teaching what they should've learned 3-5 years earlier, that leaves no time for true-learning activities that most of us grew up with.
You can only do so much with what you're given.
Jobs said the problem with U.S. institutions is that they have become unionized to a point where ridding public schools of poor teachers is prohibited. "This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy," he said.
Although Jobs drew enthusiastic applause at various intervals, he acknowledged that his raw criticisms were unlikely to be as well-received by the local school board.
"Apple just lost some business in this state, I'm sure," he said.
Another example of poor business judgment by the "highest paid CEO in America", brought about by his lack of respect for individuals who buy computers that are more expensive just because Steve Jobs said so.
Given his criticism of public teachers, can Steve Jobs expect that public teachers will put their jobs on the line to keep Mac computers in their schools, in spite of lower priced "standard" computers available from the likes of Dell, based in Austin?
We should be done with the inflated ego of a CEO who uses Apple as his piggy bank through back dated stock options.
$219 million a year for Steve Jobs of Apple:
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...d=a2lC5UYqKkSI
Treat them like Senators. After 6 years they have to be re-tested, along-side all in academia which will test their qualifications.
Have the test focused around their area of expertise.
Think of it as the GRE for professionals.
Give them two chances before they have to retool themselves. If they can't keep their own educational backgrounds current and solid what good is it to have them teaching the future generations?
Given his criticism of public teachers, can Steve Jobs expect that public teachers will put their jobs on the line to keep Mac computers in their schools, in spite of lower priced "standard" computers available from the likes of Dell, based in Austin?
Nice. .... ?
If Dell is based in Texas, then why not make a political comment in the state least likely to be buying Apple in the first place. (yes, I have NO idea if Apple's sales are lowest in Texas... anyone?). At least the comment gets heard by every state, but may only be taken personally by one.
I'm thinking more in lines of Universities, but it can be addressed at the K-12 if they would stop lowering the degrees of difficulty to get through your grades.
I picked up a 1945 Gradeschool Mathbook and it's level included finance, volumes, areas, advanced algebra, etc.
Today everything is integrated crap.
Supply the latest hardcover books but make the "addendums/updates" in PDF. Give them the option to buy the book since afterall, we buy the books with our taxes.
BAD EMPLOYEES exist everywhere and they slide by in companies all over the world. Without bad employees, you wouldn't have anything to compare good ones to.
Being an Apple Fanboy, it hurts me to say this, but Steve hasn't really created anything other than money. It was never his education (or lack there of) that made him great. Some people are great manipulators, some are not. I hardly consider that to be a quality I would want to pass on to others.
He is like the really cool guy in school that is sort of friends with everybody, so this way when he needs to get his homework done, he can ask a nerd to do it for him. If he needs a band to play at his party, he can go talk to the musician types.
I'd love to see Steve put his money where his mouth is. If you have all the answers about education reform, fix it (or pay somebody else to fix it). He's just pissed nobody uses Apple Computers in schools anymore.
I'll love you again tomorrow Steve, but not today.
For the most part, I agree with Jobs that principals need the power to fire bad teachers.
If the principals had the power to fire bad teachers...
This is one of SJ's main points, and I see it running through many of the comments.
Since when did principals become the geniuses of the education world?
Very often I see the people who make it to principal are the ones who get into the profession not with education in mind, but moving up the pay scale.
Of course there are horrible teachers.
Of course there should be a way to remove them (or preferably weed them out early).
Unfortunately, the worst ones I have seen are often best buddies with the principal.
These simplistic, knee-jerk responses are rather dispiriting...
But I believe he should keep his comments regarding other things to himself.
Today, I think it was a very bad day for him. I wished he kept his mouth shut when he doesn't know what is he talking about education.
I hope this is a learning experience for him.
1 company, 1 time? Get real man. We live in a PARADISE compared to 100 years ago. A negligent mine company is by far the exception, not the rule.
We live in an extremely spoiled rotten time. It is more than conceivable that somebody can be born, live a rich childhood with all the toys and experiences, easily go to college, perform mediocrely at work, live a long time, and die with virtually no real hardship in their life. People working a dangeous line of work and getting killed by negligence due to greed is a statistical zero, not a statistical probability.
If everything is so great, why do you sound so unhappy?
I respect Steve Jobs very much for his vision and for the revolution Apple did in the computer world under his guidance.
But I believe he should keep his comments regarding other things to himself.
Today, I think it was a very bad day for him. I wished he kept his mouth shut when he doesn't know what is he talking about education.
I hope this is a learning experience for him.
Actually, it affects him and every American CEOs who are running American based multinational companies . They noticed that they are hiring more immigrants than Americans in their respective businesses because many Americans cannot seem to match the education of their foreign rivals. They know that sooner or later , the lack of quality education will have a devastating effect on this country's technological industries which will make America poorer as a result economically and intellectually.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
One thing is certain about teachers: they think they know best about everything.
They don't.
Jobs reportedly told the crowd that he envisioned future schools where textbooks would be replaced with a free, online information source...
Steve Jobs is a certified genius in my book, but even geniuses don't know everything. The suggestion that kids should spend all their study time in front of a computer screen is not reasonable. If you add up the time the average teenager already spends (1) playing video games, (2) surfing the internet and (3) watching tv, it's clear that more screen time is not what these kids need. On the contrary!
I've known many good teachers whose only recourse against bad principals was their unions. Why should principals have the power to fire any teacher, but teachers not have the power to fight back against unfair treatment by school principals and other administrators??? That's what the unions are for, and they are much needed. I'm not sure what Jobs is thinking.
if that is the case , I will have no problem with it . But this is a real problem of teacher unions .http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110007761