I have been using FCP since film school back in 2000, and recently had to learn AVID for a job. Not only was it a huge pain to even find a place that taught AVID, but it was VERY expensive. I have been using AVID systems for the last couple years, and I must say that from a creative cutting standpoint, AVID has nothing on FCP, and ultimatly, it's not about the program, but the Editor's ability to tell a story. FCP seems so much more organic than AVID, as well as its superior integration with other software. AVID users have this arrogance about their systems, but when are they going to learn that it's strictly business, not personal. Walter Murch has edited 3 films on FCP and is not turning back. The reality is that most of the new generation will be learing FCP, not AVID.
Wow I love that many of you guys are registering and responding to this thread. Cool. I think Apple should be reaching out to schools (and they probably have) and making FCP the program that students are learning on. As for Avid I have no experience but the two things that seem to come out in favor of Avid is their implementation of Multicam and their better media management. I think I'm fine with the current FCP Multicam. I've seen it demo'd and it looks fine. Media Management is another story. I think Apple's working with that and we'll have something solid in the next version or so. Avid does have that arrogance. Even Digidesign users seem to have the same scoffing attitude towards other DAW. Wake up and smell the coffee. Pro Tools sucks with midi and
1.6ms latency without the need for expensive DSP rackmount and more expensive plugins. These old school Avid/Digi editors will be replaced in the next decade with talented youngsters running Final Cut Pro/Logic/Nuendo. Just sit back and watch the old guard fall.
"At last year's NAB, expectations were that Apple would announce a high end version of Final Cut, but this did not materialize," he said
Of course not. For one, FCP is not updated every year, it is every other year. In 2005 it was last updated, and last year, it was released as a Universal, which was probably not a trivial task for an app of that size and potentially having a lot of legacy code.
Re: the Zune, my favorite is, "Brown is the new failure."
At least that's fairly interesting and funny. Wilco beat the "poo" joke far too much, I think he ended up getting moderated out for doing it too often.
After spending $100,000's over the years nobody is going tell these people that they can get the same thing for $10,000. No siree. That's not how you cover your ass in a business.
True. And yet, when it becomes crushingly obvious, people switch anyway. Look at expensive, proprietary Sun servers back in the day vs cheap Intel boxes running Linux server software. In the end, Sun just couldn't win, and had to adapt to survive.
Inertia, loyalty, internal misinformation, etc. only lasts so long against crushingly better price-to-performance ratios.
At least that's fairly interesting and funny. Wilco beat the "poo" joke far too much, I think he ended up getting moderated out for doing it too often.
I agree, a little bit of 'poo metaphor' goes a long, long way.
At least that's fairly interesting and funny. Wilco beat the "poo" joke far too much, I think he ended up getting moderated out for doing it too often.
Wilco takes a while to figure out. He beat that comment into the ground to make a point.
As an editor that has used Avid and FCP for years, there is a perception that Avid is the king, but that will change. I personally like FCP way more after using them both.
Same here. I used to edit on Avid and then take the rough edit over to the post house to finish it. Now I do the whole thing myself with FC Studio. When I drive to work in the morning I go right by the Post House and their parking lot is becoming very empty these days. There used to be dozens of cars there. Now it sort of looks like "fade to black".
True. And yet, when it becomes crushingly obvious, people switch anyway. Look at expensive, proprietary Sun servers back in the day vs cheap Intel boxes running Linux server software. In the end, Sun just couldn't win, and had to adapt to survive.
Inertia, loyalty, internal misinformation, etc. only lasts so long against crushingly better price-to-performance ratios.
.
Plus learning the new tool (FCP) should be cheaper and less of a drain while they become proficient. They can learn in in their off time.
i bought my fcp studio 5.1 a couple months ago - now, how much you think ill have to pay for a regular fcp 6 update? (not the rumoured extreme version)
i hope ill get away with 200 euros/dollars or so? naive?
I think an upgrade from 5 and above will be a couple hundred bucks, but not crazy... In fact, I wouldn't put it past Apple to make the cost of upgrading exceedingly attractive for FCP users, to continue to solidify their user base and get those people talking about new feature sets when companies look to make their next equipment switch.
I'm reallly hoping to make it down to NAB this year... It seems there's something Apple in the air.
Can anyone clarify the confusing entrance fees for getting in? I'm planning on flying down on the Saturday evening, doing the Apple presentation on Sunday, then spend Monday on the floor. Can I buy day passes for the event? And if so, how much are they?
When all of your experience and training is on one system, you're not going to push to make a switch, thus making all of your knowledge and experience irrelevant.
That's something people who trivialize the idea of "Photoshop, Office, et.al. killers" seem to ignore or forget. And why Windows will be around for a lot longer than some of us would like it to be. But eventually that'll all be legacy/history, maybe even some in my remaining lifetime.
That's something people who trivialize the idea of "Photoshop, Office, et.al. killers" seem to ignore or forget. And why Windows will be around for a lot longer than some of us would like it to be. But eventually that'll all be legacy/history, maybe even some in my remaining lifetime.
Some of these OS's and programs are now so entrenched that it will be almost impossible to dislodge them.
I think that of all of them, Office is the easiest, because, even though it is on 95% of the desktops, it's the file format that keeps it where it is. With MS being scared into submitting their XML version for acceptence as a standard, they, for the first time, have to publish it in its entirety. Even though it is several thousand pages in length (which it has to be so that it can take advantage of all the features in Office), other companies will now be able to use it in its entirety.
The fact that they had to publish the entire spec, means that companies will even be able to reverse engineer Office from it, though that will take years.
I have been using FCP since film school back in 2000, and recently had to learn AVID for a job. Not only was it a huge pain to even find a place that taught AVID, but it was VERY expensive. I have been using AVID systems for the last couple years, and I must say that from a creative cutting standpoint, AVID has nothing on FCP, and ultimatly, it's not about the program, but the Editor's ability to tell a story. FCP seems so much more organic than AVID, as well as its superior integration with other software. AVID users have this arrogance about their systems, but when are they going to learn that it's strictly business, not personal. Walter Murch has edited 3 films on FCP and is not turning back. The reality is that most of the new generation will be learing FCP, not AVID.
you bring up an interesting point. i was just talking to some friends about this last night over dinner. a lot of the first successful digital apps were successful because they mimiced analog processes so well. thus, people who used to cut film physically were comfortable with avids because they did a good job of using their paradigms and turning them digital. photoshop was very similar in that way. the original tools were all tools that were used in darkrooms.
but with the younger generation like yourself and the people coming behind you, your paradigm of what is possible in the digital realm is unlimited. even for someone like me who came into the professional world right on the cusp of the digital revolution i still think we'll see some amazing things from people who grew up with a retouching app on their first computer. i think the same thing will happen in editing and post production as well. watching films like 300 and sin city you can see how the approach is changing.
older editors love avid for many reasons. but one of the big ones is that it still uses the same paradigms of editing that they've always used, but they're just doing it more efficiently. i'm really excited to see the technology that's going to develop from this next generation of programmers who have grown up with unlimited potential.
Apple's gotta be working on it now as I write this. Just a hunch.
that one is going to be really really really hard to replace. unless adobe massively drops the ball somewhere down the line, nobody will have a good reason to move. quark and avid are/have both suffered from hubris. adobe seems to be pretty good at keeping the fire lit.
Apple's gotta be working on it now as I write this. Just a hunch.
I can't say they aren't.
But, PS is an entire ecosystem. Much more than Office, which has numerous programs that depend upon it, PS is plugged into a lot of heavy duty production equipment, that works in conjunction with Illustrator, InDesign or Quark, production system programs, plus innumerable plug-ins for these systems. As Adobe upgrades PS more often than Office, and no heavy duty user of the program is talking about "feature glut", Apple would have a hell of a time just trying to match the features of a version two numbers ago. The new features are like an entire program on their own. In fact, several of them were!
Apple would have to develop an entire suite to compete.
Then, Apple would have to make it work in Windows, and possibly Linux as well, to be able to have a universal solution. Would they do that? I doubt it very much. That would have Apple endorse Windows for the very area in which Apple's OS and hardware compete very well.
In addition, Apple would have to make it a "drop-in" replacement for Adobe's products, otherwise no one would be interested.
Comments
I have been using FCP since film school back in 2000, and recently had to learn AVID for a job. Not only was it a huge pain to even find a place that taught AVID, but it was VERY expensive. I have been using AVID systems for the last couple years, and I must say that from a creative cutting standpoint, AVID has nothing on FCP, and ultimatly, it's not about the program, but the Editor's ability to tell a story. FCP seems so much more organic than AVID, as well as its superior integration with other software. AVID users have this arrogance about their systems, but when are they going to learn that it's strictly business, not personal. Walter Murch has edited 3 films on FCP and is not turning back. The reality is that most of the new generation will be learing FCP, not AVID.
Wow I love that many of you guys are registering and responding to this thread. Cool. I think Apple should be reaching out to schools (and they probably have) and making FCP the program that students are learning on. As for Avid I have no experience but the two things that seem to come out in favor of Avid is their implementation of Multicam and their better media management. I think I'm fine with the current FCP Multicam. I've seen it demo'd and it looks fine. Media Management is another story. I think Apple's working with that and we'll have something solid in the next version or so. Avid does have that arrogance. Even Digidesign users seem to have the same scoffing attitude towards other DAW. Wake up and smell the coffee. Pro Tools sucks with midi and
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony.php
1.6ms latency without the need for expensive DSP rackmount and more expensive plugins. These old school Avid/Digi editors will be replaced in the next decade with talented youngsters running Final Cut Pro/Logic/Nuendo. Just sit back and watch the old guard fall.
Brand loyalty? Well they are not called "Avid" users for nothing.
In other news, here is the latest screen shot from the new leopard!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070315/...louded_leopard
funny.... i posted something similar and got a post violation warning, might be an idea not to do that
"At last year's NAB, expectations were that Apple would announce a high end version of Final Cut, but this did not materialize," he said
Of course not. For one, FCP is not updated every year, it is every other year. In 2005 it was last updated, and last year, it was released as a Universal, which was probably not a trivial task for an app of that size and potentially having a lot of legacy code.
It certainly doesn't have the legs that "Zune is brown like poo!!!!!1!!" did.
Re: the Zune, my favorite is, "Brown is the new failure."
.
People who say Avid is for Pro's and FCP is for "prosumers" is just silly... Tell that to David Fincher who just edited ZODIAC on FCP.
Yep. And I believe a lot of the editing on '300' was done using FCP, though they used Avid as well.
I said half decaf, NO FOAM latte !!!
.
Re: the Zune, my favorite is, "Brown is the new failure."
At least that's fairly interesting and funny. Wilco beat the "poo" joke far too much, I think he ended up getting moderated out for doing it too often.
After spending $100,000's over the years nobody is going tell these people that they can get the same thing for $10,000. No siree. That's not how you cover your ass in a business.
True. And yet, when it becomes crushingly obvious, people switch anyway. Look at expensive, proprietary Sun servers back in the day vs cheap Intel boxes running Linux server software. In the end, Sun just couldn't win, and had to adapt to survive.
Inertia, loyalty, internal misinformation, etc. only lasts so long against crushingly better price-to-performance ratios.
.
At least that's fairly interesting and funny. Wilco beat the "poo" joke far too much, I think he ended up getting moderated out for doing it too often.
I agree, a little bit of 'poo metaphor' goes a long, long way.
(omg, did I just say 'poo metaphor'?)
.
At least that's fairly interesting and funny. Wilco beat the "poo" joke far too much, I think he ended up getting moderated out for doing it too often.
Wilco takes a while to figure out. He beat that comment into the ground to make a point.
As an editor that has used Avid and FCP for years, there is a perception that Avid is the king, but that will change. I personally like FCP way more after using them both.
Same here. I used to edit on Avid and then take the rough edit over to the post house to finish it. Now I do the whole thing myself with FC Studio. When I drive to work in the morning I go right by the Post House and their parking lot is becoming very empty these days. There used to be dozens of cars there. Now it sort of looks like "fade to black".
True. And yet, when it becomes crushingly obvious, people switch anyway. Look at expensive, proprietary Sun servers back in the day vs cheap Intel boxes running Linux server software. In the end, Sun just couldn't win, and had to adapt to survive.
Inertia, loyalty, internal misinformation, etc. only lasts so long against crushingly better price-to-performance ratios.
.
Plus learning the new tool (FCP) should be cheaper and less of a drain while they become proficient. They can learn in in their off time.
hey guys,
i bought my fcp studio 5.1 a couple months ago - now, how much you think ill have to pay for a regular fcp 6 update? (not the rumoured extreme version)
i hope ill get away with 200 euros/dollars or so? naive?
I think an upgrade from 5 and above will be a couple hundred bucks, but not crazy... In fact, I wouldn't put it past Apple to make the cost of upgrading exceedingly attractive for FCP users, to continue to solidify their user base and get those people talking about new feature sets when companies look to make their next equipment switch.
I'm reallly hoping to make it down to NAB this year... It seems there's something Apple in the air.
Can anyone clarify the confusing entrance fees for getting in? I'm planning on flying down on the Saturday evening, doing the Apple presentation on Sunday, then spend Monday on the floor. Can I buy day passes for the event? And if so, how much are they?
AVID has nothing on FCP...
Although I prefer FCP, that's simply not true.
I agree, a little bit of 'poo metaphor' goes a long, long way.
(omg, did I just say 'poo metaphor'?)
.
Careful with the "Poo", you may get sued by Disney.
When all of your experience and training is on one system, you're not going to push to make a switch, thus making all of your knowledge and experience irrelevant.
That's something people who trivialize the idea of "Photoshop, Office, et.al. killers" seem to ignore or forget. And why Windows will be around for a lot longer than some of us would like it to be. But eventually that'll all be legacy/history, maybe even some in my remaining lifetime.
That's something people who trivialize the idea of "Photoshop, Office, et.al. killers" seem to ignore or forget. And why Windows will be around for a lot longer than some of us would like it to be. But eventually that'll all be legacy/history, maybe even some in my remaining lifetime.
Some of these OS's and programs are now so entrenched that it will be almost impossible to dislodge them.
I think that of all of them, Office is the easiest, because, even though it is on 95% of the desktops, it's the file format that keeps it where it is. With MS being scared into submitting their XML version for acceptence as a standard, they, for the first time, have to publish it in its entirety. Even though it is several thousand pages in length (which it has to be so that it can take advantage of all the features in Office), other companies will now be able to use it in its entirety.
The fact that they had to publish the entire spec, means that companies will even be able to reverse engineer Office from it, though that will take years.
Photoshop will be more difficult to replace.
Photoshop will be more difficult to replace.
Apple's gotta be working on it now as I write this. Just a hunch.
I have been using FCP since film school back in 2000, and recently had to learn AVID for a job. Not only was it a huge pain to even find a place that taught AVID, but it was VERY expensive. I have been using AVID systems for the last couple years, and I must say that from a creative cutting standpoint, AVID has nothing on FCP, and ultimatly, it's not about the program, but the Editor's ability to tell a story. FCP seems so much more organic than AVID, as well as its superior integration with other software. AVID users have this arrogance about their systems, but when are they going to learn that it's strictly business, not personal. Walter Murch has edited 3 films on FCP and is not turning back. The reality is that most of the new generation will be learing FCP, not AVID.
you bring up an interesting point. i was just talking to some friends about this last night over dinner. a lot of the first successful digital apps were successful because they mimiced analog processes so well. thus, people who used to cut film physically were comfortable with avids because they did a good job of using their paradigms and turning them digital. photoshop was very similar in that way. the original tools were all tools that were used in darkrooms.
but with the younger generation like yourself and the people coming behind you, your paradigm of what is possible in the digital realm is unlimited. even for someone like me who came into the professional world right on the cusp of the digital revolution i still think we'll see some amazing things from people who grew up with a retouching app on their first computer. i think the same thing will happen in editing and post production as well. watching films like 300 and sin city you can see how the approach is changing.
older editors love avid for many reasons. but one of the big ones is that it still uses the same paradigms of editing that they've always used, but they're just doing it more efficiently. i'm really excited to see the technology that's going to develop from this next generation of programmers who have grown up with unlimited potential.
Apple's gotta be working on it now as I write this. Just a hunch.
that one is going to be really really really hard to replace. unless adobe massively drops the ball somewhere down the line, nobody will have a good reason to move. quark and avid are/have both suffered from hubris. adobe seems to be pretty good at keeping the fire lit.
Apple's gotta be working on it now as I write this. Just a hunch.
I can't say they aren't.
But, PS is an entire ecosystem. Much more than Office, which has numerous programs that depend upon it, PS is plugged into a lot of heavy duty production equipment, that works in conjunction with Illustrator, InDesign or Quark, production system programs, plus innumerable plug-ins for these systems. As Adobe upgrades PS more often than Office, and no heavy duty user of the program is talking about "feature glut", Apple would have a hell of a time just trying to match the features of a version two numbers ago. The new features are like an entire program on their own. In fact, several of them were!
Apple would have to develop an entire suite to compete.
Then, Apple would have to make it work in Windows, and possibly Linux as well, to be able to have a universal solution. Would they do that? I doubt it very much. That would have Apple endorse Windows for the very area in which Apple's OS and hardware compete very well.
In addition, Apple would have to make it a "drop-in" replacement for Adobe's products, otherwise no one would be interested.
While it's not impossible, it's close to it.