I get that. But it's also not a 3G phone, doesn't do VoIP, doesn't have GPS, doesn't have a good camera, doesn't let me read office docs, doesn't allow 3rd party apps etc. and it costs a fortune. Some of those they can fix in software later. Some they can't.
But here's where you're making stuff up. We haven't seen output from the camera, so we don't know about that. We don't know if it'll let you read Office docs or not. If not, it DOES support PDFs, which are what smart people send around, anyway. And I think it's pretty clear that 3rd party apps will be available, but will probably have to be OK'ed by Apple.
Additionally, considering that everyone needs a phone, I think it's pretty safe to say that a fairly large percentage of 'everyone' can pay $500 for something that does everything they want so well. We live in an age where people buy three fridges, three widescreen TVs, towel warmers, wine chillers, and all manner of expensive luxury products.
Besides, $500 isn't much more than I'd pay for a nano + a smartphone anyway, and it's a way better solution for my needs. Even if I'm not in the above category, you can bet I'll be getting one .
Yep - just like its silly to say that iPod has missed the mark now. In 5 years you'll laugh at anyone that says iPhone missed the mark.
I wouldn't be so sure. Apple have a very large prospect of succeeding but the inital phone is a bit meh and I'm sure Nokia and SE will pull it apart and adapt Symbian. Symbian's Series 60 and UIQ interfaces are a little cludgy but nowhere near the mess that Windows Mobile is and they've been moving pretty quickly lately. Back the end of last year I test drove an SE P990 (I've a P910 already) and despite it being very buggy, the UI was quite an advance on the P910. But not perfect by far. The last few firmware updates have solved many of the bugs and the newer N-Series models I've played with have been great too. The W880i's music player software is IMHO as good as anything Apple has come up with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zillatron
Your talking about physical design? Thats only a small bit of why iPhone will be a great product, but almost no part of why its a game changer.
No, everything about the Archos was fugly. The iPhone has some great touches to it's UI and it's design. I actually think the design is a bit so-so. It's too big for a phone. It's all about the software IMHO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zillatron
Its only meaningless if its:
a) not true and b) made up like Steve Ballmer and Bill G like to do
Apple getting 25% of the USA smartphone market accounts for less than 2% of the world. That's kind of the thing I meant - meaningless. But Jobs will play the stats game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zillatron
I mean that you cant compare it to what is available now in europe, asia or anywhere else. because as much as its called iPhone, its a mobile computing platform. Its NOT a smartphone.
Even if you insist that it is a smartphone, the product you are comparing only has the most common features to suit the broadest appeal.
Oh come on. Every smartphone OS manufacturer calls their OS a 'mobile computing platform' or some such drivel. Nokia call their N series 'Multimedia Computers'. Comparing the iPhone to other smartphones is of course exactly what Jobs did in his keynote so suggesting the comparison is somehow not valid is just skirting the issue that the iPhone doesn't compare on features.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zillatron
yep - execpt it doesnt have multi-touch and it cant have the nice interface and thats what the bulk of people will buy it for - because it just works, just like their iPod.
But there are thousands of phones out there that just work and that people don't have an issue with already, most of them entirely free too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zillatron
I'm not saying Symbian is bad, just not the same. Funny how nobody had done something on this scale before iPhone. Every new handset was just an improved version of the last handset with incremental software improvements. Sure, some might have had things in development, even demoed their great new ideas.
Huh? Ericsson and Nokia pretty much invented the category.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zillatron
but Apple are making it happen this year, not in 5. And now everyone is saying that they can do it too and its nothing new. if it wasnt such a big shift, if it is just another handset - why hasnt it been done 50 times already and why is everyone still talking about it? Why has it polarized so many people?
Don't overlook the impact 'shiny' has. At the moment, the iPhone is the new shiny. They've yet to deliver past that. They've demoed some unique UI features to an audience that is tired of confusing interfaces and old software ideas. That's great. I hope it's a real kick up the arse for the other phone interface guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat
But here's where you're making stuff up. We haven't seen output from the camera,
It's 2mp, no flash and of undeterminate quality sensor, glass, and feaureset.
What we do know about say a Nokia N95 is it's 5mp, decent quality sensor, Carl Zeiss glass, auto focus and a good flash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat
so we don't know about that. We don't know if it'll let you read Office docs or not. If not, it DOES support PDFs, which are what smart people send around, anyway.
IME it's only the stupid people that send me documents instead of email or point me at a web link anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat
And I think it's pretty clear that 3rd party apps will be available, but will probably have to be OK'ed by Apple.
I think so too. How it happens though we don't know yet and no 3rd party developer is spilling either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat
Additionally, considering that everyone needs a phone, I think it's pretty safe to say that a fairly large percentage of 'everyone' can pay $500 for something that does everything they want so well. We live in an age where people buy three fridges, three widescreen TVs, towel warmers, wine chillers, and all manner of expensive luxury products.
I don't know anyone who pays more than £100 for a smartphone and most people go for free phones. Apple asking >iPod price won't work here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat
Besides, $500 isn't much more than I'd pay for a nano + a smartphone anyway, and it's a way better solution for my needs. Even if I'm not in the above category, you can bet I'll be getting one .
I don't think I would because of all the other missing features though, not as it stands today or at release in June.
No, but I haven't seen any TV adds for Macs either. And it you go into the resellers they are pushed aside, making more room for iPod stuff.
We only have resellers in Australia, no Apple operated stores...all the retailers here that ive been too have very balanced displays. not sure what its like where you are from...
solved many of the bugs and the newer N-Series models I've played with have been great too. The W880i's music player software is IMHO as good as anything Apple has come up with.
10million units isnt huge no matter which way you look at it.
Thats your opinion and your entitled to it - It certainly seems your keen on Nokia devices, and thats fine too. But i think its a bit short sighted to say that anything anyone else has on the market now is even close to iPhone.
As i said, none of those devices have put the world media into a spin, or created discussion like this. Simply, its just more of the same, they are evolution of existing products. Not a revolution. But i dont seem to be making this point well enough for you guys to understand, so i'm not going to push it any further
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
It's too big for a phone. It's all about the software IMHO.
Thats because it isnt just a phone, and yes it is very much about the software! Just not only the software that is on the phone itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
Apple getting 25% of the USA smartphone market accounts for less than 2% of the world. That's kind of the thing I meant - meaningless. But Jobs will play the stats game.
He said 1% of the world market. As long as they get to that it wont matter what percent of the US market,
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
comparison is somehow not valid is just skirting the issue that the iPhone doesn't compare on features.
Comparing them isnt valid - even though it is a phone, its not a smartphone with respect to the category as it stands today. Which is the point that Steve jobs made - it may not have all the features, but again, to compare it feature to feature is to ignore the delivery of those features.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
confusing interfaces and old software ideas. That's great. I hope it's a real kick up the arse for the other phone interface guys.
It already has - have you seen some of the things the CEO's of the other companies are saying?
I think Steve Ballmers was the best
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
It's 2mp, no flash and of undeterminate quality sensor, glass, and feaureset.
What we do know about say a Nokia N95 is it's 5mp, decent quality sensor, Carl Zeiss glass, auto focus and a good flash.
That wont make alot of difference, as i said several times already, to people who just want the thing to work.
This device will replace a phone and an ipod for people who dont want both - clearly the quality of the camera isnt going to be a deal breaker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
I don't know anyone who pays more than £100 for a smartphone and most people go for free phones. Apple asking >iPod price won't work here.
Phones are not free, they are subsidized. Apple using the same business model as iPod will work just like it did last time
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
I don't think I would because of all the other missing features though, not as it stands today or at release in June.
But the phone market is different than the MP3 player market, people looking at it will just think it is a fancy phone.
Not that different really, just bigger.
Controlled by backward, monolithic companies who dictate the rules about everything from pricing to features. To me, that description can easily fit into both record companies and telcos.
I'm in the UK. Never seen a 'Get a Mac' ad either. Haven't even seen an iPod advert since the new shuffle was released.
That is a surprise. I know that I saw a set of "British" versions of the "Get a Mac" ads on YouTube. I just assumed that they were showing there. Maybe I was fooled by spoof adds!
That is a surprise. I know that I saw a set of "British" versions of the "Get a Mac" ads on YouTube. I just assumed that they were showing there. Maybe I was fooled by spoof adds!
I don't often watch the channels that have adverts, don't have cable, don't have satellite and don't have digital terrestrial TV so that's maybe why I've possibly missed it. I don't want them either. There's maybe 2 hours a day worth watching on TV and I've got far better things to do than waste my time with TV.
The UK ads are real, not spoofs. I've seen them online only in advertising slots on news sites. However, Apple usually doesn't advertise extensively here anyway so I'm not surprised if they aren't on the three terrestrial channels we do have adverts on. Usually it's a couple of times a day for a couple of weeks after something significant but nothing much more.
Comments
Just because it has a phone in it shouldn't confuse you into thinking that this is just a fancy phone.
But the phone market is different than the MP3 player market, people looking at it will just think it is a fancy phone.
I get that. But it's also not a 3G phone, doesn't do VoIP, doesn't have GPS, doesn't have a good camera, doesn't let me read office docs, doesn't allow 3rd party apps etc. and it costs a fortune. Some of those they can fix in software later. Some they can't.
But here's where you're making stuff up. We haven't seen output from the camera, so we don't know about that. We don't know if it'll let you read Office docs or not. If not, it DOES support PDFs, which are what smart people send around, anyway. And I think it's pretty clear that 3rd party apps will be available, but will probably have to be OK'ed by Apple.
Additionally, considering that everyone needs a phone, I think it's pretty safe to say that a fairly large percentage of 'everyone' can pay $500 for something that does everything they want so well. We live in an age where people buy three fridges, three widescreen TVs, towel warmers, wine chillers, and all manner of expensive luxury products.
Besides, $500 isn't much more than I'd pay for a nano + a smartphone anyway, and it's a way better solution for my needs. Even if I'm not in the above category, you can bet I'll be getting one
Only true in America. We've no carrier lock in in Europe. It's illegal.
That's not 100% true
Yep - just like its silly to say that iPod has missed the mark now. In 5 years you'll laugh at anyone that says iPhone missed the mark.
I wouldn't be so sure. Apple have a very large prospect of succeeding but the inital phone is a bit meh and I'm sure Nokia and SE will pull it apart and adapt Symbian. Symbian's Series 60 and UIQ interfaces are a little cludgy but nowhere near the mess that Windows Mobile is and they've been moving pretty quickly lately. Back the end of last year I test drove an SE P990 (I've a P910 already) and despite it being very buggy, the UI was quite an advance on the P910. But not perfect by far. The last few firmware updates have solved many of the bugs and the newer N-Series models I've played with have been great too. The W880i's music player software is IMHO as good as anything Apple has come up with.
Your talking about physical design? Thats only a small bit of why iPhone will be a great product, but almost no part of why its a game changer.
No, everything about the Archos was fugly. The iPhone has some great touches to it's UI and it's design. I actually think the design is a bit so-so. It's too big for a phone. It's all about the software IMHO.
Its only meaningless if its:
a) not true and b) made up like Steve Ballmer and Bill G like to do
Apple getting 25% of the USA smartphone market accounts for less than 2% of the world. That's kind of the thing I meant - meaningless. But Jobs will play the stats game.
I mean that you cant compare it to what is available now in europe, asia or anywhere else. because as much as its called iPhone, its a mobile computing platform. Its NOT a smartphone.
Even if you insist that it is a smartphone, the product you are comparing only has the most common features to suit the broadest appeal.
Oh come on. Every smartphone OS manufacturer calls their OS a 'mobile computing platform' or some such drivel. Nokia call their N series 'Multimedia Computers'. Comparing the iPhone to other smartphones is of course exactly what Jobs did in his keynote so suggesting the comparison is somehow not valid is just skirting the issue that the iPhone doesn't compare on features.
yep - execpt it doesnt have multi-touch and it cant have the nice interface and thats what the bulk of people will buy it for - because it just works, just like their iPod.
But there are thousands of phones out there that just work and that people don't have an issue with already, most of them entirely free too.
I'm not saying Symbian is bad, just not the same. Funny how nobody had done something on this scale before iPhone. Every new handset was just an improved version of the last handset with incremental software improvements. Sure, some might have had things in development, even demoed their great new ideas.
Huh? Ericsson and Nokia pretty much invented the category.
but Apple are making it happen this year, not in 5. And now everyone is saying that they can do it too and its nothing new. if it wasnt such a big shift, if it is just another handset - why hasnt it been done 50 times already and why is everyone still talking about it? Why has it polarized so many people?
Don't overlook the impact 'shiny' has. At the moment, the iPhone is the new shiny. They've yet to deliver past that. They've demoed some unique UI features to an audience that is tired of confusing interfaces and old software ideas. That's great. I hope it's a real kick up the arse for the other phone interface guys.
But here's where you're making stuff up. We haven't seen output from the camera,
It's 2mp, no flash and of undeterminate quality sensor, glass, and feaureset.
What we do know about say a Nokia N95 is it's 5mp, decent quality sensor, Carl Zeiss glass, auto focus and a good flash.
so we don't know about that. We don't know if it'll let you read Office docs or not. If not, it DOES support PDFs, which are what smart people send around, anyway.
IME it's only the stupid people that send me documents instead of email or point me at a web link anyway.
And I think it's pretty clear that 3rd party apps will be available, but will probably have to be OK'ed by Apple.
I think so too. How it happens though we don't know yet and no 3rd party developer is spilling either.
Additionally, considering that everyone needs a phone, I think it's pretty safe to say that a fairly large percentage of 'everyone' can pay $500 for something that does everything they want so well. We live in an age where people buy three fridges, three widescreen TVs, towel warmers, wine chillers, and all manner of expensive luxury products.
I don't know anyone who pays more than £100 for a smartphone and most people go for free phones. Apple asking >iPod price won't work here.
Besides, $500 isn't much more than I'd pay for a nano + a smartphone anyway, and it's a way better solution for my needs. Even if I'm not in the above category, you can bet I'll be getting one
I don't think I would because of all the other missing features though, not as it stands today or at release in June.
That's not 100% true
It is true. It's not illegal to unlock any phone.
No, but I haven't seen any TV adds for Macs either. And it you go into the resellers they are pushed aside, making more room for iPod stuff.
We only have resellers in Australia, no Apple operated stores...all the retailers here that ive been too have very balanced displays. not sure what its like where you are from...
Saying that there aren't any Mac ad's is just making things up: http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/
No it isn't
if you think so
solved many of the bugs and the newer N-Series models I've played with have been great too. The W880i's music player software is IMHO as good as anything Apple has come up with.
10million units isnt huge no matter which way you look at it.
Thats your opinion and your entitled to it - It certainly seems your keen on Nokia devices, and thats fine too. But i think its a bit short sighted to say that anything anyone else has on the market now is even close to iPhone.
As i said, none of those devices have put the world media into a spin, or created discussion like this. Simply, its just more of the same, they are evolution of existing products. Not a revolution. But i dont seem to be making this point well enough for you guys to understand, so i'm not going to push it any further
It's too big for a phone. It's all about the software IMHO.
Thats because it isnt just a phone, and yes it is very much about the software! Just not only the software that is on the phone itself.
Apple getting 25% of the USA smartphone market accounts for less than 2% of the world. That's kind of the thing I meant - meaningless. But Jobs will play the stats game.
He said 1% of the world market. As long as they get to that it wont matter what percent of the US market,
comparison is somehow not valid is just skirting the issue that the iPhone doesn't compare on features.
Comparing them isnt valid - even though it is a phone, its not a smartphone with respect to the category as it stands today. Which is the point that Steve jobs made - it may not have all the features, but again, to compare it feature to feature is to ignore the delivery of those features.
confusing interfaces and old software ideas. That's great. I hope it's a real kick up the arse for the other phone interface guys.
It already has - have you seen some of the things the CEO's of the other companies are saying?
I think Steve Ballmers was the best
It's 2mp, no flash and of undeterminate quality sensor, glass, and feaureset.
What we do know about say a Nokia N95 is it's 5mp, decent quality sensor, Carl Zeiss glass, auto focus and a good flash.
That wont make alot of difference, as i said several times already, to people who just want the thing to work.
This device will replace a phone and an ipod for people who dont want both - clearly the quality of the camera isnt going to be a deal breaker.
I don't know anyone who pays more than £100 for a smartphone and most people go for free phones. Apple asking >iPod price won't work here.
Phones are not free, they are subsidized. Apple using the same business model as iPod will work just like it did last time
I don't think I would because of all the other missing features though, not as it stands today or at release in June.
Ok! no one said you have to buy one
Z
But the phone market is different than the MP3 player market, people looking at it will just think it is a fancy phone.
Not that different really, just bigger.
Controlled by backward, monolithic companies who dictate the rules about everything from pricing to features. To me, that description can easily fit into both record companies and telcos.
Z
Saying that there aren't any Mac ad's is just making things up: http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/
Most people see their ads via the TV, how many tv ads for Macs do you see, the only ones are for Dells
Most people see their ads via the TV, how many tv ads for Macs do you see, the only ones are for Dells
umm...they are TV ads!
I donno where you are from, but I see one of these ad's at least 2 times a day!
Z
umm...they are TV ads!
I donno where you are from, but I see one of these ad's at least 2 times a day!
Z
I am in Ireland, and have never seen one play on either Irish, or UK based TV stations
I am in Ireland, and have never seen one play on either Irish, or UK based TV stations
I'm in the UK. Never seen a 'Get a Mac' ad either. Haven't even seen an iPod advert since the new shuffle was released.
I'm in the UK. Never seen a 'Get a Mac' ad either. Haven't even seen an iPod advert since the new shuffle was released.
That is a surprise. I know that I saw a set of "British" versions of the "Get a Mac" ads on YouTube. I just assumed that they were showing there. Maybe I was fooled by spoof adds!
That is a surprise. I know that I saw a set of "British" versions of the "Get a Mac" ads on YouTube. I just assumed that they were showing there. Maybe I was fooled by spoof adds!
I don't often watch the channels that have adverts, don't have cable, don't have satellite and don't have digital terrestrial TV so that's maybe why I've possibly missed it. I don't want them either. There's maybe 2 hours a day worth watching on TV and I've got far better things to do than waste my time with TV.
The UK ads are real, not spoofs. I've seen them online only in advertising slots on news sites. However, Apple usually doesn't advertise extensively here anyway so I'm not surprised if they aren't on the three terrestrial channels we do have adverts on. Usually it's a couple of times a day for a couple of weeks after something significant but nothing much more.