Apple won't begin to catch up to Microsoft's market share UNLESS they....
#1) Support Mac OS X to run on all PC hardware - the growth in sales of Mac OS X should totally out-weigh any loss in Apple's hardware sales.
#2) Seriously tackle the Enterprise market and compete with MS technologies such as Active Directory, Exchange, SharePoint, Terminal Services, Outlook, etc.
The problem is Apple is losing a great opportunity to make greater inroads into new desktop purchases by not offering a minitower system in the 900-1500 dollar range.
The problem is Apple is losing a great opportunity to make greater inroads into new desktop purchases by not offering a minitower system in the 900-1500 dollar range.
YOU ARE SO RIGHT ABOUT THAT! I dream every night of such a machine. The current MacPro is too expensive. The iMac is an all-in-one. The MacMini is too little and underpowered. Etc. This is one of Mac OS X's biggest problems - it is supported only on hardware that seems to fit the business model of it's creator, Apple Inc.
Dear Apple, Please release a Bring-Your-Own-Display-Keyboard-Mouse tower Mac in the $800 - $1200 range! It's WAY OVERDUE! This hardware-lock-in crap is enought to make me SWITCH to XP/Vista!
ROFLMAO....I "AM" the Desktop Administrator for two hosptials well into the 3500 node range according to my last AD scan.
We do have a contract w/ Dell but no way in hell would I allow them to pre-install any image to put on our network. Thats what M$ made RIS server for. Rapid deployment with easily configured images and software packages via group policy. O wait thats right, Apple doesn't do that...huh?
You need to do a little more reading on Apple products.
I am sorry guys - AppleInsider really does a good job, but this was truly a dreadfully written article, which beggars belief in its spin on the Vista sales figures and how they should be directly compared to Apple's for its OS X. Dreadful truly dreadful.
Agree 100%. And, to add insult to injury, AI articles are frequently cited on major financial sites like Google, Yahoo, Bloomberg, WSJ, etc. Readers there often just look at headlines when searching for the latest news on a stock or sector. Poorly researched and written articles like this one have the potential to do a lot of damage among investors who don't know about many of the points mentioned here e,g. the need to breakout "sales" by category, free upgrade coupons from XP, etc. Some investors only see that one of Apple's top evangelist sites is in a panic about great Vista sales or that the pressure is really on Apple's Leopard sales. Bottom line: AI has to realize that every single word reported by them has to be carefully vetted. Ai articles are not just for this small forum audience of Apple devotees. This is not the first time that an AI article has been this "dreadful". Come on guys, get your act together.
I'm purchasing a *shudder* non apple laptop to host a linux distro. Unfortunately you cannot buy a laptop without getting a copy of Vista (wanted or not). The OEM cost of Vista has already been factored into the price of the laptop thus Mscrew gets paid for something that I DON'T want nor am I going to use.
Basically M$ 'sales' figures do not represent Vista's acceptance figures. There are a lot of people out there who are either upgrading computer systems (and are happy with XP) or purchasing systems intended for non-Vista use (like me), these people have not voluntarily bought Vista.....they've had shoved down their throats.
And as has been pointed out by other posters on this thread, how does the fact that Vista sells more in one month than the entire install base of OSX affect Apples sales?? (Answer; it doesn't).
I can agree with some of what you said. Some companies do have preinstalled images. I would venture to say, in my field, they do not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande
Specialized computers are never managed in such a way.
100% Disagree. Saying specialized computers are not managed in such a way is not true. Take our Radiologist RDT's/PDT's and Cedera Iview stations. These are used to pull read diagnostic images on patients (large greyscale monitors taking place of xray film).They arrive barebones and we install a custom image on each machine. Test. Burn. Test. Burn. Deploy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande
Many of these networks rely largely on Windows 2000 right up to this day.
If I were to ever use this phrase around our network engineers I would be sacked and strung up outside at lunch time. They would then pull whatever sharp objects out of their pocket protectors and poke me with them.
Networks do not rely on windows, escpecially enterprise level networks. They rely on core routers and switches; in our case layer-3 networks where the all switches and routers are Cisco. If every Windows server and desktop were to crash, the network would work just fine.
Network guys and Server guys are completely two different teams. And they hate to be compared to each other.
vista was the most lukewarm OS release that microsoft has ever had, since windows 1.0.
most reviewers don't hate it, but at the same time, they don't see what the value of it is, especially given the heafty price tag. matter of fact, it's a lot like the zune, in that respect, but where is the zune? i have vista on one of the PCs in my house, mainly for reviewing purposes, and it really just doesn't seem that much different from XP. it's just same ol' windows. slow, buggy, no better or worse than XP.
vista will be a successful product, because microsoft will force it on the community. however, i think this tactic will come back to bite them in the ass next time around, because most enterprises will be ready to resist the gouging.
100% Disagree. Saying specialized computers are not managed in such a way is not true. Take our Radiologist RDT's/PDT's and Cedera Iview stations. These are used to pull read diagnostic images on patients (large greyscale monitors taking place of xray film).They arrive barebones and we install a custom image on each machine. Test. Burn. Test. Burn. Deploy.
You misread, or I worded my reply poorly. I meant to say specialized computers tend not to be deployed or managed by the likes of IBM and Dell. They are rather prepared, deployed, and managed by specialized staff. We do not disagree on this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trailmaster308
If I were to ever use this phrase around our network engineers I would be sacked and strung up outside at lunch time. They would then pull whatever sharp objects out of their pocket protectors and poke me with them.
Networks do not rely on windows, escpecially enterprise level networks. They rely on core routers and switches; in our case layer-3 networks where the all switches and routers are Cisco. If every Windows server and desktop were to crash, the network would work just fine.
Again, I am talking about the computers deployed to various employees of the company. The computers which make up the bulk of a company’s machines. None of what I have said applies to the server room, or other specialized equipment, where drone machines are (hopefully) never deployed and are (hopefully) maintained exclusively by a competent IT staff in appropriately sized companies. My discussion, to which you replied, was focused on the Microsoft sales numbers, and as such was concerned about the majority of sales going into a company. My point was that companies do not pay for thousands or tens of thousands of Vista licenses when buying machines which will be used as terminals, secretary computers, or many clone-type special purposes. Businesses make arrangements that come with what they need, stripping out costs such as this—something the consumer cannot do.
MS has roughly 300M windows users. 20M copies of Vista represents around 6.5% adoption... that's before you consider that a good proportion of those were not sought-after, but rather forced due to MS's fierce pullout of XP in all retail outlets. You will have a hard time purchasing XP or an XP-preinstalled PC anywhere, even if that's what you wanted. MS is literally FORCING Vista upon users. I would hardly call that "adoption."
Another statistic to look at, then, is average PC sales over the course of two months, and see exactly how much Vista's sales exceed this. I don't think it's by much but I don't have any hard numbers.
Yet another factor to consider is whether or not MS considers copies sold to retailers which are still sitting on store shelves as "sales."
I think 6.5% would be a generous figure. Plus, we aren't experiencing blockbuster PC sales. I would interpret that as slow sales for Vista.
i don't understand why people compare the release of tiger to the release of XP
apple is selling tiger to the very limited apple hardware customers. microsoft is selling XP to people who buy Dells, HP, Sony, etc...
people are excited by the idea of apple succeeding over microsoft. apple is still the underdog, but people forget that. it's not such a bad thing, though. microsoft is clearly losing popularity. in a lot of ways, they've made themselves look like the evil, yet incompetent empire. in time, they will lose their stronghold in the IT industry, but whether or not apple will be the catalyst remains to be seen.
it's just nice to see that for once, there's a viable alternative.
.... MS's fierce pullout of XP in all retail outlets. You will have a hard time purchasing XP or an XP-preinstalled PC anywhere, even if that's what you wanted. MS is literally FORCING Vista upon users. I would hardly call that "adoption."
-Clive
Windows XP Pro with SP2 is currently a very hot item on eBay. At a recent trip to CompUSA, after I asked if I could get a Wintel without Vista, the sales guy whispered he would give me a good deal on a licensed copy of XP SP2 from "his own" personal store. Just think about it, a black market next year in XP SP2!
There should have been even more sales than the 20 mill as the demand should have been peaking for what, two years now with all of the release delays??
There were a lot of free upgrades to Vista included with computer sales of the last holiday season.\
My employer states that it will not move to Vista immediately as there is not any business reason to do so. They do not wish to experience the hardware upgrade issue. In the future it will be rolled out with the normal hardware refresh program unless there is a specific business reason to do so sooner.
So the release of Vista was large but no tidal surge indicating that everyone was on board the microsoft express.
Oh, for heaven sakes. I was expecting to see this garbage article, but not regurgitated without challenge by a site like AppleInsider. What is with these crumby articles lately? A Sprint Phone that cannot even compete with the iPod in terms of music playback, while completely missing out on the key innovations of the iPhone, presented as a threat of some sort to the product. Paying homage to DigiTimes? ridiculous suggestion that OS X would be delayed for Vista of all things? This is just bad reporting. An Apple website should research these matters so they are comfortable with the sources, then present the story along with the truth behind it.
As for this article, it represents three key considerations:
1) Copies of Microsoft Vista pre-installed on over-the-counter units.
2) Copies of Microsoft Vista theoretically pre-sold in that upgrade program.
3) Copies of Microsoft Vista shipped?stuffed into retail channels?awaiting sale.
#1 in particular has been generous to them this time around. Why? Because they have gone to great lengths to strip XP from the retail channel. If you are shopping at big-box stores you are going to have a tough time finding new PCs with Windows XP pre-installed. You are also going to have a tough time buying Windows XP over the shelf. Microsoft is forcing Vista upon its customers, many of whom are not happy about it?particularly elderly who aren?t ready for more change, and old computer users who are faced with a new system that will not be backward compatible with their peripherals. It is no wonder so many have ?sold??
How about the actual over-the-counter Vista upgrades? You won?t be seeing those numbers?they are selling horribly. Most of the people who are excited enough to run Vista on a pre-Vista system are actually pirating it?or can?t afford it, and businesses want nothing to do with it.
None of this should come as a surprise though. Microsoft has been doing this for some time now.
Edit: Hell, this probably also includes all the OEM licenses HP, Gateway, Sony, Toshiba, and others have purchased in bulk but haven?t even shipped yet. All the computers waiting to be shipped, that have been shipped, that are sitting around in warehouses across the world.
Do you really think that Apple states sales figures for new operating systems based only on over the counter purchases? Everybody's doing the same thing to make their system seem like it's selling better, which makes it a control, and useful for comparisons. When Leopard arrives, Apple will also include copies on new systems sold, as well as the free upgrades (if it offers them) to people that bought Macs within a month of the release or something... You seem really upset at Microsoft for using a sales reporting technique which apple will undoubtably also use in a few months' time...
Windows XP Pro with SP2 is currently a very hot item on eBay. At a recent trip to CompUSA, after I asked if I could get a Wintel without Vista, the sales guy whispered he would give me a good deal on a licensed copy of XP SP2 from "his own" personal store. Just think about it, a black market next year in XP SP2!
More than half of the systems at Dell still ship with XP, and they're one of the big tie-in companies with Vista compatability. The fact is that Vista is great on the top half of currently availiable computers, but XP will stick around on the lower-end models for at least a few more months, I think. Windows 95 was readily available for months after XP.
There's no sense in stores carrying XP, because the next wave of processors and RAM numbers and graphics cards and professional programs and games will all require Vista. Everyone who needs XP already has it. Who the hell would want to buy a new copy of XP in 2 months? Maybe somebody who's trying to build himself a Celeron desktop to save $50 over the bottom end Dell? Why would Microsoft pay to keep stores stocked with XP for those people?
What I'm wondering is, how do the 20M 'sales' of Vista compare in proportion to the installed Windows user base, opposed to 2M in sales of Tiger vs. the OSX user base?
I have been in offices that did not even buy Tiger and have it on many machines.22 in one office and they bought one copy. I wonder what Apples actual installed base is? Windows is hard to load a single copy to more then one machine but OSX is not. Not saying it is a good thing but just a fact....
As a windows user I can only say that VISTA is a 100% bust. Overhyped and way overpriced. I am a windows user. I follow apple as I am big into ipods. Called the IPOD king actually. Anyway Vista is a bust. All these years for that? Hard to believe. I have always upgraded since win 3.1 and usually upon release, not ths time. In fact if I upgrade my laptop I will wait a while. I tested vista and there is nothing great abut it. Considering that it is mstly on pcs sold how can microsoft call it a success as they sell almost none at retail. Especially at those crazy prices. 200-300 for an OS upgrade makes no sense when preinstalled machines can be had for 500 or so approx. At least Apple OS upgrades show some real value to their users and are fairly reasonable all things considered.
Comments
#1) Support Mac OS X to run on all PC hardware - the growth in sales of Mac OS X should totally out-weigh any loss in Apple's hardware sales.
#2) Seriously tackle the Enterprise market and compete with MS technologies such as Active Directory, Exchange, SharePoint, Terminal Services, Outlook, etc.
The problem is Apple is losing a great opportunity to make greater inroads into new desktop purchases by not offering a minitower system in the 900-1500 dollar range.
YOU ARE SO RIGHT ABOUT THAT! I dream every night of such a machine. The current MacPro is too expensive. The iMac is an all-in-one. The MacMini is too little and underpowered. Etc. This is one of Mac OS X's biggest problems - it is supported only on hardware that seems to fit the business model of it's creator, Apple Inc.
Dear Apple, Please release a Bring-Your-Own-Display-Keyboard-Mouse tower Mac in the $800 - $1200 range! It's WAY OVERDUE! This hardware-lock-in crap is enought to make me SWITCH to XP/Vista!
ROFLMAO....I "AM" the Desktop Administrator for two hosptials well into the 3500 node range according to my last AD scan.
We do have a contract w/ Dell but no way in hell would I allow them to pre-install any image to put on our network. Thats what M$ made RIS server for. Rapid deployment with easily configured images and software packages via group policy. O wait thats right, Apple doesn't do that...huh?
You need to do a little more reading on Apple products.
I am sorry guys - AppleInsider really does a good job, but this was truly a dreadfully written article, which beggars belief in its spin on the Vista sales figures and how they should be directly compared to Apple's for its OS X. Dreadful truly dreadful.
Agree 100%. And, to add insult to injury, AI articles are frequently cited on major financial sites like Google, Yahoo, Bloomberg, WSJ, etc. Readers there often just look at headlines when searching for the latest news on a stock or sector. Poorly researched and written articles like this one have the potential to do a lot of damage among investors who don't know about many of the points mentioned here e,g. the need to breakout "sales" by category, free upgrade coupons from XP, etc. Some investors only see that one of Apple's top evangelist sites is in a panic about great Vista sales or that the pressure is really on Apple's Leopard sales. Bottom line: AI has to realize that every single word reported by them has to be carefully vetted. Ai articles are not just for this small forum audience of Apple devotees. This is not the first time that an AI article has been this "dreadful". Come on guys, get your act together.
Basically M$ 'sales' figures do not represent Vista's acceptance figures. There are a lot of people out there who are either upgrading computer systems (and are happy with XP) or purchasing systems intended for non-Vista use (like me), these people have not voluntarily bought Vista.....they've had shoved down their throats.
And as has been pointed out by other posters on this thread, how does the fact that Vista sells more in one month than the entire install base of OSX affect Apples sales?? (Answer; it doesn't).
Sopranino
.......
I can agree with some of what you said. Some companies do have preinstalled images. I would venture to say, in my field, they do not.
Specialized computers are never managed in such a way.
100% Disagree. Saying specialized computers are not managed in such a way is not true. Take our Radiologist RDT's/PDT's and Cedera Iview stations. These are used to pull read diagnostic images on patients (large greyscale monitors taking place of xray film).They arrive barebones and we install a custom image on each machine. Test. Burn. Test. Burn. Deploy.
Many of these networks rely largely on Windows 2000 right up to this day.
If I were to ever use this phrase around our network engineers I would be sacked and strung up outside at lunch time. They would then pull whatever sharp objects out of their pocket protectors and poke me with them.
Networks do not rely on windows, escpecially enterprise level networks. They rely on core routers and switches; in our case layer-3 networks where the all switches and routers are Cisco. If every Windows server and desktop were to crash, the network would work just fine.
Network guys and Server guys are completely two different teams. And they hate to be compared to each other.
most reviewers don't hate it, but at the same time, they don't see what the value of it is, especially given the heafty price tag. matter of fact, it's a lot like the zune, in that respect, but where is the zune? i have vista on one of the PCs in my house, mainly for reviewing purposes, and it really just doesn't seem that much different from XP. it's just same ol' windows. slow, buggy, no better or worse than XP.
vista will be a successful product, because microsoft will force it on the community. however, i think this tactic will come back to bite them in the ass next time around, because most enterprises will be ready to resist the gouging.
100% Disagree. Saying specialized computers are not managed in such a way is not true. Take our Radiologist RDT's/PDT's and Cedera Iview stations. These are used to pull read diagnostic images on patients (large greyscale monitors taking place of xray film).They arrive barebones and we install a custom image on each machine. Test. Burn. Test. Burn. Deploy.
You misread, or I worded my reply poorly. I meant to say specialized computers tend not to be deployed or managed by the likes of IBM and Dell. They are rather prepared, deployed, and managed by specialized staff. We do not disagree on this point.
If I were to ever use this phrase around our network engineers I would be sacked and strung up outside at lunch time. They would then pull whatever sharp objects out of their pocket protectors and poke me with them.
Networks do not rely on windows, escpecially enterprise level networks. They rely on core routers and switches; in our case layer-3 networks where the all switches and routers are Cisco. If every Windows server and desktop were to crash, the network would work just fine.
Again, I am talking about the computers deployed to various employees of the company. The computers which make up the bulk of a company’s machines. None of what I have said applies to the server room, or other specialized equipment, where drone machines are (hopefully) never deployed and are (hopefully) maintained exclusively by a competent IT staff in appropriately sized companies. My discussion, to which you replied, was focused on the Microsoft sales numbers, and as such was concerned about the majority of sales going into a company. My point was that companies do not pay for thousands or tens of thousands of Vista licenses when buying machines which will be used as terminals, secretary computers, or many clone-type special purposes. Businesses make arrangements that come with what they need, stripping out costs such as this—something the consumer cannot do.
apple is selling tiger to the very limited apple hardware customers. microsoft is selling XP to people who buy Dells, HP, Sony, etc...
Another statistic to look at, then, is average PC sales over the course of two months, and see exactly how much Vista's sales exceed this. I don't think it's by much but I don't have any hard numbers.
Yet another factor to consider is whether or not MS considers copies sold to retailers which are still sitting on store shelves as "sales."
I think 6.5% would be a generous figure. Plus, we aren't experiencing blockbuster PC sales. I would interpret that as slow sales for Vista.
-Clive
i don't understand why people compare the release of tiger to the release of XP
apple is selling tiger to the very limited apple hardware customers. microsoft is selling XP to people who buy Dells, HP, Sony, etc...
people are excited by the idea of apple succeeding over microsoft. apple is still the underdog, but people forget that. it's not such a bad thing, though. microsoft is clearly losing popularity. in a lot of ways, they've made themselves look like the evil, yet incompetent empire. in time, they will lose their stronghold in the IT industry, but whether or not apple will be the catalyst remains to be seen.
it's just nice to see that for once, there's a viable alternative.
Daunt? DAUNT??? Surely you jest!
It doesn't seem like the right word, does it?
.... MS's fierce pullout of XP in all retail outlets. You will have a hard time purchasing XP or an XP-preinstalled PC anywhere, even if that's what you wanted. MS is literally FORCING Vista upon users. I would hardly call that "adoption."
-Clive
Windows XP Pro with SP2 is currently a very hot item on eBay. At a recent trip to CompUSA, after I asked if I could get a Wintel without Vista, the sales guy whispered he would give me a good deal on a licensed copy of XP SP2 from "his own" personal store. Just think about it, a black market next year in XP SP2!
There should have been even more sales than the 20 mill as the demand should have been peaking for what, two years now with all of the release delays??
There were a lot of free upgrades to Vista included with computer sales of the last holiday season.
My employer states that it will not move to Vista immediately as there is not any business reason to do so. They do not wish to experience the hardware upgrade issue. In the future it will be rolled out with the normal hardware refresh program unless there is a specific business reason to do so sooner.
So the release of Vista was large but no tidal surge indicating that everyone was on board the microsoft express.
Oh, for heaven sakes. I was expecting to see this garbage article, but not regurgitated without challenge by a site like AppleInsider. What is with these crumby articles lately? A Sprint Phone that cannot even compete with the iPod in terms of music playback, while completely missing out on the key innovations of the iPhone, presented as a threat of some sort to the product. Paying homage to DigiTimes? ridiculous suggestion that OS X would be delayed for Vista of all things? This is just bad reporting. An Apple website should research these matters so they are comfortable with the sources, then present the story along with the truth behind it.
As for this article, it represents three key considerations:
1) Copies of Microsoft Vista pre-installed on over-the-counter units.
2) Copies of Microsoft Vista theoretically pre-sold in that upgrade program.
3) Copies of Microsoft Vista shipped?stuffed into retail channels?awaiting sale.
#1 in particular has been generous to them this time around. Why? Because they have gone to great lengths to strip XP from the retail channel. If you are shopping at big-box stores you are going to have a tough time finding new PCs with Windows XP pre-installed. You are also going to have a tough time buying Windows XP over the shelf. Microsoft is forcing Vista upon its customers, many of whom are not happy about it?particularly elderly who aren?t ready for more change, and old computer users who are faced with a new system that will not be backward compatible with their peripherals. It is no wonder so many have ?sold??
How about the actual over-the-counter Vista upgrades? You won?t be seeing those numbers?they are selling horribly. Most of the people who are excited enough to run Vista on a pre-Vista system are actually pirating it?or can?t afford it, and businesses want nothing to do with it.
None of this should come as a surprise though. Microsoft has been doing this for some time now.
Edit: Hell, this probably also includes all the OEM licenses HP, Gateway, Sony, Toshiba, and others have purchased in bulk but haven?t even shipped yet. All the computers waiting to be shipped, that have been shipped, that are sitting around in warehouses across the world.
Do you really think that Apple states sales figures for new operating systems based only on over the counter purchases? Everybody's doing the same thing to make their system seem like it's selling better, which makes it a control, and useful for comparisons. When Leopard arrives, Apple will also include copies on new systems sold, as well as the free upgrades (if it offers them) to people that bought Macs within a month of the release or something... You seem really upset at Microsoft for using a sales reporting technique which apple will undoubtably also use in a few months' time...
Windows XP Pro with SP2 is currently a very hot item on eBay. At a recent trip to CompUSA, after I asked if I could get a Wintel without Vista, the sales guy whispered he would give me a good deal on a licensed copy of XP SP2 from "his own" personal store. Just think about it, a black market next year in XP SP2!
More than half of the systems at Dell still ship with XP, and they're one of the big tie-in companies with Vista compatability. The fact is that Vista is great on the top half of currently availiable computers, but XP will stick around on the lower-end models for at least a few more months, I think. Windows 95 was readily available for months after XP.
There's no sense in stores carrying XP, because the next wave of processors and RAM numbers and graphics cards and professional programs and games will all require Vista. Everyone who needs XP already has it. Who the hell would want to buy a new copy of XP in 2 months? Maybe somebody who's trying to build himself a Celeron desktop to save $50 over the bottom end Dell? Why would Microsoft pay to keep stores stocked with XP for those people?
Rob